I like that PoryZ set much better, thanks. Idk how I feel about the MegaRay set tho.
Never mind new info is presented so idk if it's legal or not yet
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Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
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Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Inheritance [Prime Council Elected]
- Thread starter Snaquaza
- Start date
Never mind new info is presented so idk if it's legal or not yet
Primordial Sea will just OHKO you with Thunder. There's only 5 fully evolved Pokemon that get Scald and not Ice Beam, so Scald users almost uniformly have access to coverage against you too. (To be fair, they don't necessarily run said coverage)
Ninjask is even faster, has the same Attack, and can run X-Scissor over Poison Jab. Loses the utility against Mega Altaria, but is overall a better attacking type. Admittedly doubly weak to Stealth Rock and noticeably more fragile.
Alternatively, Weavile is 5 points less Speed for 30 points more Attack and STAB on Knock Off. Loses STAB on Poison Jab, but it's not far behind in damage thanks to the Attack advantage. It doesn't get Ice STAB from Parasect, but Crobat doesn't get Flying STAB either, so whatever.
It's too bad Kyogre gets Ice Beam, because otherwise Dugtrio would be an amusing user of this set, acting as a complete hard stop to Primal Kyogre. Might still stop some Primal Kyogre inheritors anyway.
Also note that Parasect gets Pursuit. Spore+Pursuit is actually a pretty obnoxious combination.
I'm actually running Scarf, but then I'm using it in a weird way on a stall team. (Yes, really)
Overall Life Orb is probably superior to Choice Band.
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 208-246 (51.4 - 60.8%) -- 92.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
You don't need a Band to (usually) 2HKO Physically Defense Suicune, for instance.
why is this a thing in a Singles meta
Definately pro getting rid of chatter, the ability to jsut win with luck, almost taking the game to the point were skill is close to irrelevent means chatter is extremely unviable. It can be used to get off some damage to allow for a 2ohko with another mon and avoid being hitten by an attack in the process. Its legit better then swagger almost, its just like a confuse that automatically gives out damage, while swagger is not guaranteed and also leaves a threat once the confuse runs out
Edit: Also hoopa-u should be A- at the very least, it was the mon that helped me top the ladder and only lose once, the ability to completely annihilate possibly one of the most dangerous team archetypes in this meta (stall) as well as being able to threaten espeed users for an offensive team means its niche is prominent enough to deserve A-.
Edit #2: Empoleon should be ranked alongside rotom-wash as it is an awesome abuser of primordial rain. Not only does it have the strongest water spout in the game, but its resistance to stealth rocks allows it to stay healthier and fire of ridiculously powerful spouts throughout the game, while mons like rotom and greninja get worn down faster. Rotom does have a powerful secondary stab which empoleon lacks, but its resistance to stealth rocks and greater power makes it equal in viability IMO.
Edit: Also hoopa-u should be A- at the very least, it was the mon that helped me top the ladder and only lose once, the ability to completely annihilate possibly one of the most dangerous team archetypes in this meta (stall) as well as being able to threaten espeed users for an offensive team means its niche is prominent enough to deserve A-.
Edit #2: Empoleon should be ranked alongside rotom-wash as it is an awesome abuser of primordial rain. Not only does it have the strongest water spout in the game, but its resistance to stealth rocks allows it to stay healthier and fire of ridiculously powerful spouts throughout the game, while mons like rotom and greninja get worn down faster. Rotom does have a powerful secondary stab which empoleon lacks, but its resistance to stealth rocks and greater power makes it equal in viability IMO.
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no i mean hoopa c, adaptability nasty plot shadow ball with shadow plate or life orb hits almost as hard as hoopa-u did, it has a different typing and better stab in shadow ball, and it is bulkier and immune to the ever prevelent espeed. Its already B+, a move to A- doesn't seem like too much of a stretch at all.
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hmm, not bad, used it 1 time, did fairly better than mega lati since it doesnt lose the ability and takes a turn to get all the boosts adjusted. ty
I posted a RMT for Inheritance if anyone interested.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/inheritance-balance-of-dual-psychic.3555882/#post-6521445
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/inheritance-balance-of-dual-psychic.3555882/#post-6521445
Clawitzer, Omastar, and Gorebyss are all stronger. Empoleon is usually better, but yeah.
I think the "most immune" thing to Primordial Sea sets (assuming Thunder/Water Spout/ Ice Beam/ Surf/OriginP) would be like a Lightning Rod Empleon, immune to Electric, 4x resist to Ice and 2x resist to water. Or, if water STAB really bothers you it could be Lightning Rod Ludicolo/ Kingdra, for 4x resist water but neutral to ice. You just got me thinking about how to be the "most immune" to that set.
Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
Inheriting Wonder Guard, Pure Power, Huge Power, Gale Wings, Arena Trap, Shadow Tag, Imposter, Parental Bond or inheriting from Masquerain, Smeargle or Sableye is banned.
to end this debate, shadow tag inheriting is banned in GENERAL. and not just on non shadow taggers. idr how to tag TI, but its something that needs to be fixed. lmao.
come on guys, read the OP before making assumptions. if someone says its banned, rather then assuming it isn't, look at the main page. its literally RIGHT THERE. in clear day. no "ifs ands or buts"
to end this debate, shadow tag inheriting is banned in GENERAL. and not just on non shadow taggers. idr how to tag TI, but its something that needs to be fixed. lmao.
come on guys, read the OP before making assumptions. if someone says its banned, rather then assuming it isn't, look at the main page. its literally RIGHT THERE. in clear day. no "ifs ands or buts"
bp scrub
rub a dub dub one scrub in a tub
I guess its not the "most immune" thing, but AV Regen Goodra is basically a hardwall to all Desolate Land/Primordial Aea mons and can check/counter pretty much every other special attacker too.
Any Shadow Tag issues should be fixed now.
People often use Mega Gyarados or Mold breaker setup sweepers to deal with Unawares. Or maybe just use brute strength by using Band Adaptability from pokes with very powerful attacks. People often overlook a very hated mechanism called Critical Hits, which goes through Unawares.
Kingdra (Kyurem) @ Scope Lens
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe or 200 Atk / 252 SpA / 52 Spe
Rash Nature
- Focus Energy
- Draco Meteor
- Ice Beam
- Double-Edge / Return (If you use Return, use the 200 Atk spread)
Focus Energy + Scope Lens make you have 100% chance of getting Critical Hits. Sniper boost it to x2.25. Let's see its power.
252+ SpA Sniper Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia on a critical hit: 418-492 (94.1 - 110.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
Rest in peace Physically Defensive Cresselia. This means Suicune got no chance to live. Steel types? Unless you bring Specially Defensive Aegislash or Registeel, you won't have the chance to live.
252+ SpA Sniper Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Doublade on a critical hit: 190-225 (59 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Yeah, Nice resist. Physically Defensive Registeel and Aegislash also got 2HKO'd.
252+ SpA Sniper Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Registeel on a critical hit: 184-219 (50.5 - 60.1%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Florges? 2HKO's by Ice Beam. This leaves Chansey and Specially Defensive Azumarill as the last option. Well that's the purpose of Double-Edge or Return. Reason I put 200 Atk on Kyurem is to guarantee 2HKO on Chansey.
200 Atk Sniper Kyurem Return vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey on a critical hit: 321-378 (50 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If you use Double-Edge, you won't have to invest into Attack, though you suffer a lot recoil from Chansey. Considering Kyurem has high HP, it's reasonable I think.
0 Atk Sniper Kyurem Double-Edge vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey on a critical hit: 322-379 (50.1 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
All of these are just calcs. It may suck in performance, but it's notable I think because it's one of the few things that can go through Unawares.
Kingdra (Kyurem) @ Scope Lens
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe or 200 Atk / 252 SpA / 52 Spe
Rash Nature
- Focus Energy
- Draco Meteor
- Ice Beam
- Double-Edge / Return (If you use Return, use the 200 Atk spread)
Focus Energy + Scope Lens make you have 100% chance of getting Critical Hits. Sniper boost it to x2.25. Let's see its power.
252+ SpA Sniper Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia on a critical hit: 418-492 (94.1 - 110.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
Rest in peace Physically Defensive Cresselia. This means Suicune got no chance to live. Steel types? Unless you bring Specially Defensive Aegislash or Registeel, you won't have the chance to live.
252+ SpA Sniper Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Doublade on a critical hit: 190-225 (59 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Yeah, Nice resist. Physically Defensive Registeel and Aegislash also got 2HKO'd.
252+ SpA Sniper Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Registeel on a critical hit: 184-219 (50.5 - 60.1%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Florges? 2HKO's by Ice Beam. This leaves Chansey and Specially Defensive Azumarill as the last option. Well that's the purpose of Double-Edge or Return. Reason I put 200 Atk on Kyurem is to guarantee 2HKO on Chansey.
200 Atk Sniper Kyurem Return vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey on a critical hit: 321-378 (50 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If you use Double-Edge, you won't have to invest into Attack, though you suffer a lot recoil from Chansey. Considering Kyurem has high HP, it's reasonable I think.
0 Atk Sniper Kyurem Double-Edge vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey on a critical hit: 322-379 (50.1 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
All of these are just calcs. It may suck in performance, but it's notable I think because it's one of the few things that can go through Unawares.
Yeah I used that last time inh was omotm, not half as good in practice than it looks on paper. First, might as well run hydro pump to pass steels easier, it's not like you need ice beam for anything anyway and heatran / registeel / aegislash can just roost off till you waste all your pp. The main problem with this is that it's pretty shit against anything that isn't full stall, and draco meteor only has 8pp so it can be wasted. It's extremely weak to knock off and extremely week to status, and there's not even much it can come in on. Suicune can encore it, doublade can kill it, chansey can status it / kill it, cress can knock him off, heatran can 2hko it etc... might catch some stuff off guard but really doesn't do much greatness and ends up being a useless slot in a lot of matches.
The biggest difference between this set and the same set in AAA is that hydreigon gets superpower which is actually a huge deal. And has recovery in roost.
canno
formerly The Reptile
Sniper + Focus Energy seems like a fun concept to play with. There are 3 doners for the job - obviously Kingdra, but you also have Beedrill and Octillery. This probably doesn't work at all in practice, but on paper it seems really fun
Beedrill (Landorus) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Focus Energy
- Drill Run
- Air Cutter
- filler
Ok, so this is probably the only set you will see that doesn't actually use Scope Lens. The reason why is because both Drill Run and Air Cutter already have a high crit ratio, meaning that Landorus is able to run Life Orb. This makes up for Air Cutters and (compared to the other moves Sniper-mon throw out) Drill Run. This set attempts to use what I think is the most interesting part of Focus Energy + Sniper - it's not just a super SD, but a super SD and a super NP at the same time. The filler can be a couple of things - Roost is probably the best, but you also have things like Knock Off, U-Turn, Hidden Power, and Poison Jab (if you really hate fairies). There are probably better ways to go about a mixed Snipermon (Octillery gets Gunk Shot and Seed Bomb, along with one of the most colorful special movepools available), and there are probably better use for Beedrill as a doner (you lose out on Adaptability), but using LO Drill Runs that always crit sounds really fun.
Beedrill (Landorus) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Focus Energy
- Drill Run
- Air Cutter
- filler
Ok, so this is probably the only set you will see that doesn't actually use Scope Lens. The reason why is because both Drill Run and Air Cutter already have a high crit ratio, meaning that Landorus is able to run Life Orb. This makes up for Air Cutters and (compared to the other moves Sniper-mon throw out) Drill Run. This set attempts to use what I think is the most interesting part of Focus Energy + Sniper - it's not just a super SD, but a super SD and a super NP at the same time. The filler can be a couple of things - Roost is probably the best, but you also have things like Knock Off, U-Turn, Hidden Power, and Poison Jab (if you really hate fairies). There are probably better ways to go about a mixed Snipermon (Octillery gets Gunk Shot and Seed Bomb, along with one of the most colorful special movepools available), and there are probably better use for Beedrill as a doner (you lose out on Adaptability), but using LO Drill Runs that always crit sounds really fun.
Landorus-Incarnate gives me an idea, but if I'm honest that set is pretty terrible.
Landorus-Incarnate @ Sky Plate / Leftovers / Lum Berry
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
Calm Mind
Earth Power
Aeroblast
Roost
Simple special sweeper, inherits from Lugia. Calm Mind boost SpA and SpD; Earth Power and Aeroblast get STAB. Roost keeps you healthy for longer. You will need a strong Fighting type, as this set can't touch Chansey and Levitate Heatran. Multiscale lets you take a hit at full HP. Sky Plate powers up Aeroblast; Leftovers provides passive recovery; Lum Berry heals status
Azelf @ Life Orb
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Navie Nature
Extrasensory
Sucker Punch
Focus Blast
Dark Pulse / Flamethrower / Grass Knot
Inherits from Zoroark. Extrasensory gets STAB, Sucker Punch gets priority, Focus Blast hits Dark and Steel types, Dark Pulse hits opposing Psychic types, Flamethrower wrecks Ferrothorn that don't have Flash Fire, Grass Knot hits bulky Water and Ground types.
Landorus-Incarnate @ Sky Plate / Leftovers / Lum Berry
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
Calm Mind
Earth Power
Aeroblast
Roost
Simple special sweeper, inherits from Lugia. Calm Mind boost SpA and SpD; Earth Power and Aeroblast get STAB. Roost keeps you healthy for longer. You will need a strong Fighting type, as this set can't touch Chansey and Levitate Heatran. Multiscale lets you take a hit at full HP. Sky Plate powers up Aeroblast; Leftovers provides passive recovery; Lum Berry heals status
Azelf @ Life Orb
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Navie Nature
Extrasensory
Sucker Punch
Focus Blast
Dark Pulse / Flamethrower / Grass Knot
Inherits from Zoroark. Extrasensory gets STAB, Sucker Punch gets priority, Focus Blast hits Dark and Steel types, Dark Pulse hits opposing Psychic types, Flamethrower wrecks Ferrothorn that don't have Flash Fire, Grass Knot hits bulky Water and Ground types.
Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator/Natural Cure
EVs: 232 HP / 220 Def / 56 Spe
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Refresh
- Scald
Inherited from Corsola.
Essentially Crocune with reliable recovery and status removal. The given abilities that it inherits from Corsola allow it to be a more effective pivot throughout the match, meaning that it does not constantly have to rely on either Refresh or Recover to cure itself repeatedly, depending on the ability of choice. The given EVs allow Suicune to hit 220 speed, outpacing 44 speed Rotom, jolly Azumarill, and anything slower, and the HP reaches both a leftovers (ending in 9) and a regenerator number (divisible by 3). The rest of the EVs are placed into defense. The EVs can be modified to make Suicune faster or slower depending, and a more efficient use of EVs to create a bulkier spread is possible (perhaps max hp/max defense). Other interesting options Suicune inherits from Corsola include Iron Defense, Aqua Ring, Ingrain, Mirror Coat, Amnesia, Curse, Safeguard, Dual Screens, Lucky Chant, Psychic, Ice Beam, Toxic, Power Gem, Shadow Ball, and Mist. Equally viable is the use of Slowbro or Slowking, who have access to Regenerator and reliable recovery as well as the likes of Nasty Plot, Dragon Tail, and a wider offensive movepool, but lack Refresh or Natural Cure.
Ability: Regenerator/Natural Cure
EVs: 232 HP / 220 Def / 56 Spe
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Refresh
- Scald
Inherited from Corsola.
Essentially Crocune with reliable recovery and status removal. The given abilities that it inherits from Corsola allow it to be a more effective pivot throughout the match, meaning that it does not constantly have to rely on either Refresh or Recover to cure itself repeatedly, depending on the ability of choice. The given EVs allow Suicune to hit 220 speed, outpacing 44 speed Rotom, jolly Azumarill, and anything slower, and the HP reaches both a leftovers (ending in 9) and a regenerator number (divisible by 3). The rest of the EVs are placed into defense. The EVs can be modified to make Suicune faster or slower depending, and a more efficient use of EVs to create a bulkier spread is possible (perhaps max hp/max defense). Other interesting options Suicune inherits from Corsola include Iron Defense, Aqua Ring, Ingrain, Mirror Coat, Amnesia, Curse, Safeguard, Dual Screens, Lucky Chant, Psychic, Ice Beam, Toxic, Power Gem, Shadow Ball, and Mist. Equally viable is the use of Slowbro or Slowking, who have access to Regenerator and reliable recovery as well as the likes of Nasty Plot, Dragon Tail, and a wider offensive movepool, but lack Refresh or Natural Cure.
bp scrub
rub a dub dub one scrub in a tub
AGAINST chatter
It's uncompetitive, like Chopin said, you can set up sub if you get lucky, and then proceed to either boomburst something to death or setup nasty plot. It's definitely not op or anything, its just no fun when part/all of your team gets wiped because of a few unlucky confusions.
The Official Glyx
Banned deucer.
My elo rating in ladder is 1424, and I'm placing my official vote for Chatter in the Inheritance OM. Chatter doesn't break the metagame more than Dynamic Punch and ParaFlichers do. Chatter can't guarantee a win and there are much better options for Pokémon to run most of the time. Also, it's so rare that it isn't even worth banning. Most of the people in the top ladder positions, including myself, don't even run Chatter.
Point being, it's not even worth it to ban Chatter because it rarely, if ever, causes problems for any one player. Remember, the point of a ban is for the health of the meta. I don't see Chatter as being harmful seeing that it's so rare and often simply mediocre at best. Chatter has been and always will be annoying as f*ck, but that's about all it ever will be.
For proof of my rating, you can use Glyx's image.
Point being, it's not even worth it to ban Chatter because it rarely, if ever, causes problems for any one player. Remember, the point of a ban is for the health of the meta. I don't see Chatter as being harmful seeing that it's so rare and often simply mediocre at best. Chatter has been and always will be annoying as f*ck, but that's about all it ever will be.
For proof of my rating, you can use Glyx's image.
Coverage thunder doesn't OHKO from base-110 sp attk, actually. The only common Kyogre user I've seen below that is Greninja, but he's pretty common in the score range I play. Starmie still kills, but is less common.
I tested both Weavile and Ninjask, and Crobat has a more reasonable defensive typing, given that this is a utility mon. The 4x fighting/grass resist and ground immunity gives pretty consistent switches.
Generally I think it helps to get the right user for your team, but fast spore is great on HO or balanced offense teams I've toyed around with, and dry skin is really just icing on the cake.
AGAINST chatter
It's uncompetitive, like Chopin said, you can set up sub if you get lucky, and then proceed to either boomburst something to death or setup nasty plot. It's definitely not op or anything, its just no fun when part/all of your team gets wiped because of a few unlucky confusions.
This:
Also, for anyone comparing Dynamic Punch with Chatter: Chatter has 32 pp, while Dynamic Punch only has 8 pp. This does make a big difference.
Plus Ghost-type Pokémon are immune to Dynamic Punch, nothing is immune to Chatter
Cobalion @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
Nasty Plot
Flash Cannon
Focus Blast / Aura Sphere
Dark Pulse
Inherits from Mega Lucario. Pretty standard special sweeper. Nasty Plot is the special Swords Dance. Flash Cannon is your reliable STAB, hitting 160 power with Adaptability. Focus Blast hits a whopping 240 power with Adaptability, but Aura Sphere can be used if you don't want to risk a miss. Dark Pulse wrecks Doublade and Aegislash. EVs maximise Speed and power. You could run Vacuum Wave, but Cobalion's already fast enough and the coverage Dark Pulse provides is too useful.
On the subject of Adaptability boosters:
Drapion @ Lum Berry / Life Orb / Black Sludge
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
Swords Dance
Knock Off
Poison Jab
Drill Run / Baton Pass
Inherits from Mega Beedrill. Swords Dance gives you the power needed to sweep. Knock Off gets STAB, and thanks to Adaptability hits for just under 200 power. Poison Jab is the more reliable STAB, and still hits 160 power with Adaptability. Drill Run hits the Steel types that resist your STABs; Baton Pass lets you pass on the Swords Dance should you find yourself walled.
Cobalion @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
Nasty Plot
Flash Cannon
Focus Blast / Aura Sphere
Dark Pulse
Inherits from Mega Lucario. Pretty standard special sweeper. Nasty Plot is the special Swords Dance. Flash Cannon is your reliable STAB, hitting 160 power with Adaptability. Focus Blast hits a whopping 240 power with Adaptability, but Aura Sphere can be used if you don't want to risk a miss. Dark Pulse wrecks Doublade and Aegislash. EVs maximise Speed and power. You could run Vacuum Wave, but Cobalion's already fast enough and the coverage Dark Pulse provides is too useful.
On the subject of Adaptability boosters:
Drapion @ Lum Berry / Life Orb / Black Sludge
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
Swords Dance
Knock Off
Poison Jab
Drill Run / Baton Pass
Inherits from Mega Beedrill. Swords Dance gives you the power needed to sweep. Knock Off gets STAB, and thanks to Adaptability hits for just under 200 power. Poison Jab is the more reliable STAB, and still hits 160 power with Adaptability. Drill Run hits the Steel types that resist your STABs; Baton Pass lets you pass on the Swords Dance should you find yourself walled.
Chatter will probably be banned, so without further questioning, I'm calling for a Protean suspect
Both Kecleon and Greninja er unhealthy for the metagame, bringing insane movepools and abilities. They're insanely powerful and can come out of nowhere, centralising the metagame immensely
Both Kecleon and Greninja er unhealthy for the metagame, bringing insane movepools and abilities. They're insanely powerful and can come out of nowhere, centralising the metagame immensely
Bruh just call out the illusion suspect already, defuk you waitin' for?
Also, ghost types are probably the best users of illusion for Espeed immunity and generally destroying doublade.
