Well, I was talking about Zoroark as a revenge killer, and I'm positive it can take a resisted sucker punch. Scarf Breloom wins with Sky Uppercut, I'm pretty sure. Gengar only dies if switched into Crunch, which if predicted provides an opening for a Fighting-type like Infernape instead. Scarf Ditto will be faster although someone said it stands a decent chance of losing so I'll give you that.
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Kangaskhanite Tiering Discussion [+Demographics Poll Added to OP]
- Thread starter McMeghan
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Nope. I can't calc right now but Zorark can't take a +2 parental bond sucker punch. It's that powerfull and neither can breloom.gar is easily predicted around.
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zoroark: 210-247 (80.1 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The calc is here, since you were wondering: http://pokemonshowdown.com/damagecalc/
Most of this is pretty solid, although I will point out that Sableye can OHKO with Foul Play instead (which I'm pretty sure uses the user's status, not the foes, to modify Attack, meaning a burned Kangaskhan doesn't have less damage dealt to it) which is a perfectly legitimate option for it over Night Shade (hitting plenty of things harder). Also that lacking an overall hard counter by itself isn't sufficient reason to ban something, especially when each individual set DOES have hard counters.
Thanks for the link! I guess that means Zoroark can take the hit but just barely, although since it's fast and rarely takes hits being severely damaged likely doesn't affect what it can do all that much anyway.
LordRandomness Sableye still loses since it's slower than MKang so if WoW misses it's pretty much gg. Also, the thing is that it can ounch holes for the team to sweep, only that it can sweep on it's own.
It's on the main page. If we have to argue that Foul Play on Zoroark should be standard to deal with things like Mega Kanga, that's how we know we have a problem. (It wouldn't even work, anyway). Kanga can take out Zoroark with Return without any boosts after it evolves. Hell, It'll KO it with PuP and get a +2 and a free KO.
edit: I need to post faster, I'm getting ninja'd man
So it loses if WoW, an 85% accuracy move, misses? That's better than anything getting coverage with Focus Miss, for sure.
EDIT:
I looked at the Zoroark page and Foul Play just wasn't mentioned anywhere. Furthermore, I was referring to Zoroark as a revenge killer, not a hard counter, meaning it'd come on +2 Kanga and smack it. Also it's not necessarily just for Mega Kanga, Foul Play would let it deal with all kinds of boosting sweepers as well as anything with high SpD but low Def if it is build for SpA.
Dear lord this arguing may never end.
Tbt, there is no way on God's green Earth that this thing can stay in OU. I've seen it in probably 9 of my last 10 matches, and its power is just overwhelming.
Then about almost eight pages back, we had someone post the calculations of the Extreme Killer Arceus attacking Lugia then showed Kang do the same....I almost wondered how we expected to stop this thing.
Two counters. Two 'semi-reliable' checks to this thing in the form of Cofagrigus and Sableye, and yet you can't even guarentee they can get the burn off.
Then I've seen so many people adopt to use this thing on their teams just so they could just fight Kang with Kang. Stupid idea I guess, but lord, I don't think I've ever seen a Pokemon with this kind of centralizing in my competitive life.
I guess you don't really need another guy saying ban it, but just in case this helps any, I vote for a the banning of Mega Khan, or to say it more precisely, the banning of Kangaskhanite.
Tbt, there is no way on God's green Earth that this thing can stay in OU. I've seen it in probably 9 of my last 10 matches, and its power is just overwhelming.
Then about almost eight pages back, we had someone post the calculations of the Extreme Killer Arceus attacking Lugia then showed Kang do the same....I almost wondered how we expected to stop this thing.
Two counters. Two 'semi-reliable' checks to this thing in the form of Cofagrigus and Sableye, and yet you can't even guarentee they can get the burn off.
Then I've seen so many people adopt to use this thing on their teams just so they could just fight Kang with Kang. Stupid idea I guess, but lord, I don't think I've ever seen a Pokemon with this kind of centralizing in my competitive life.
I guess you don't really need another guy saying ban it, but just in case this helps any, I vote for a the banning of Mega Khan, or to say it more precisely, the banning of Kangaskhanite.
If it gets to +3 or even +2 Sableye does not like taking anything from Kangaskhan.
It can tank the hit just fine if Kanga is burned and then either switch out to something that can now deal with it while it's crippled (not too hard) or just go for the kill. If it switches into PuP Kanga will only be at +1 or maybe even +0 if it mispredicted.
EDIT: Also, I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here. I was just sick of people providing short lists of answers (sometimes only one or two) and acting like everything else just gets outsped and OHKOed, 2HKOed on every possible switch-in, or can't affect Mega Kanga in any meaningful way.
I think it should stay.
My reasons? Trevenant counters it by burning it as it resists/is immune to Drain Punch, Return/Body Slam, EQ, PuP and can't be hit by Sucker Punch if it uses Will-O-Wisp.
Also-252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 307-367 (87.2 - 104.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
My reasons? Trevenant counters it by burning it as it resists/is immune to Drain Punch, Return/Body Slam, EQ, PuP and can't be hit by Sucker Punch if it uses Will-O-Wisp.
Also-252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 307-367 (87.2 - 104.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
What you just said just goes to show the mentality of everyone yet again! He runs Crunch for the very purpose of BEATING WoWing Ghosts. And how much would Breloom be taking from Sucker Punch? Assuming you just happen to go in against it with no boosts?
Maybe it's just me, but I don't think "If Kangaskahn gets burned he sucks" should be a good argument either. EVERYBODY that is a physical sweeper/hitter/whatever you call it sucks when they get burned. That's why burn does what it does. Garchomp would suck ass if you could just automatically burn him all the time. The thing is is that you really HAVE to use Sable or Cofag to do this and even THEN the guy wielding Mega Kanga has the advantage because you're the one at risk, if your little ghost can't get the burn off and just gets wrecked, Mega Kanga is free to destroy.
Did you not read the previous....15 pages of posting?
Wan't this the same argument used for not banning Gengarite? God, even Arceus has counters, even more than MKang tbh. Most Sableye are only going to switch in on attacks, so it won't be burned.
I think Arceus should be unbanned It is countered by Steel-types that can burn it is is even countered by Thundurus that can stop it from boosting. For god's sake everything has a counter. Also, Trevenant is OHKO'ed by +2 Crunch and Fire Punch.
People need to realize that...YES. You can kill Mega Kanga sometimes. I've done it before! Honestly, I don't think it's hard-but I use Mega Lucario and a choice scarf Heracross, so I have two CHECKS, but no COUNTERS. If I let Kanga get +2 he's unstoppable (sometimes) and even +1 usually makes me sigh and think, "Well maybe I'll only lose two or three here". It's not healthy and doesn't promote good gameplay when Kangaskahn can just come in and poop on you almost no matter what you do.
I'm not actually arguing for it to be unbanned. I'm specifically arguing that Sableye is pretty good in this situation, obviously that fact by itself isn't going to make it not ban-worthy :/
Sableye almost always runs Foul Play seeing as it doesn't take the oppoments burns into consideration.
I agree with the general sentiment 100% though.
I know, I saw your edit.
Also, people talking about Foul Play, you actually can switch :)
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Oh, OK, didn't realise it got Fire Punch, and I regret not reading 15-ish pages and seeming like a twat. Having read some posts and calcs, this thing is OP. I'm all for banning it.
After reading through this entire thread, I'm going to have to agree with the pro-ban side of this argument. I thought that Mega Kangaskhan was going to be a threat after learning about its stats for the first time, but I didn't think it was this ridiculously broken. That it mandates having at least one--probably two--checks or counters on a team speaks to how much the current OU metagame revolves around it, and that it can curbstomp nearly the entire OU tier effortlessly is crazy. I mean, it's capable of doing more damage than Extreme Killer Arceus, one of the most feared offensive threats in all of Pokemon. That it can pick and choose its own counters from a pool that's laughably tiny to begin with pushes it over the edge.
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You should remember that Kangaskhan has Scrappy and can use Substitute if it predicts a Will-O-Wisp. Remember that Kangaskhan has 105/100/100 defenses and with max HP investment (which is advisable on a sub set) Trevenant cannot even break the Sub.
0 Atk Trevenant Horn Leech vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 88-105 (21.2 - 25.3%)
Defensive Rotom-W cannot guarantee breaking the sub (and switching into a check) and Kangaskhan may use it as set-up bait:
0 SpA Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kangaskhan: 79-94 (19 - 22.7%)
0 SpA Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kangaskhan: 79-94 (22.5 - 26.7%)
The Max HP Substitute variant punishes these Pokemon even if one is able to predict the Sub. Running more offensive EVs spreads just to deal with that particularly dangerous variant of Kangaskan is another example of its presence centralizing the metagame.
I guess so which means you can only actually get the kill if you switch it in on Mega-evolved PuP, since Scrappy PuP means it can get to +2 the turn you burn it (although that does mean you're more likely to be able to force it out if you switch to something else at least).I know, I saw your edit.
Also, people talking about Foul Play, ffs most of the time Sableye gets killed by anything Kangaskhan has even with burn.
Heh, sorry 'bout the sass then. I'm avoiding an opinion since I haven't really got the practical experience to form one, so I'm just throwing around ideas and theories and stuff. Foul Play on non-Sableye things still works if they're fast enough and/or revenging though.
I believe the biggest issue is the fact that you need a few checks in your team to take out Khan. This limits the way to build your team heavily. I myself have reached the point to not 'care' about Khan because I was done with being limited in choice. When I battle a Khan user now I will probably lose and not care about it other than asking if. I just ask if they have the brains to actually play the game instead no skill automatic pilot sweeping. (Not that I'm pro either.. x3)
This all ofcourse has to do with the sheer power this beast holds. I've seen many people leading with Khan and then leaving you out there with almost no chance. The moment you switch out it either PuPs on you or dents holes with STAB Return. I've been tryin to take it down by abusing Intimidate mons but after a while your opponent sees through that, or they have to be really bad.
In my opinion kangaskhanite should be banned to ubers. It's completely screws the fun in the OU metagame.
This all ofcourse has to do with the sheer power this beast holds. I've seen many people leading with Khan and then leaving you out there with almost no chance. The moment you switch out it either PuPs on you or dents holes with STAB Return. I've been tryin to take it down by abusing Intimidate mons but after a while your opponent sees through that, or they have to be really bad.
In my opinion kangaskhanite should be banned to ubers. It's completely screws the fun in the OU metagame.
I really am in support of quick-banning Mega-Kangaskhan. People argue that Kangaskhan is really predictable with its moveset, but that is just what is so scary about it, it can do nearly everything on a single set. Kangaskhan has fantastic bulk, especially for a primarily offensive pokemon. While this isn't the worst part of Kangaskhan, it simply means that it will usually take 2 pokemon to revenge kill it, assuming that they can survive a +2 suckerpunch. Offensively this is an incredible pokemon. It can boost its attack while dealing damage meaning that even it's counters are going to be damaged before taking a boosted attack. People argue that 125 attack is not incredible, but thats not including a plus attack nature, and if you are comparing it to a pokemon that is using Life orb instead of having Mega-Kans parental bond, that pokemon would have to have 151 base attack, making Kangaskhan's damage similar to that of Life orb Groudon (its actually greater than that). While people say, oh you can run a steel type with Rocky Helmet to beat Mega-Kan, assuming that Kangaskhan is not running Fire-Punch in pokebank, this is just asking for Magnezone to come in and trap said steel-type. Honestly, if this says anything about the anti-ban side of Mega-Kan, the vast majority of them have not made more than 25 posts, so in all likely hood they lack the experience to properly tier a pokemon. I'm pretty sure the Smogon community has reached more of a concensis that Mega-Kan is Uber than Mega-Gengar. Kangaskhan really falls into the same category as Blaziken for why it is Uber: with a very simple set, and very little skill, this pokemon can sweep most of the OU tier very easily.
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