(Little) Things that annoy you in Pokémon

[Coronis]

So in the mainline Gen 2 games, there is no move tutor. (there is one in Stadium 2)

For Gold and Crystal, this means Lugia can’t have its signature move Aeroblast.

For Silver and Crystal, this means Ho-oh can’t have its signature move Sacred Fire.

They’re replaced in the battles with Hydro Pump and Fire Blast respectively.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

So in the mainline Gen 2 games, there is no move tutor. (there is one in Stadium 2)

For Gold and Crystal, this means Lugia can’t have its signature move Aeroblast.

For Silver and Crystal, this means Ho-oh can’t have its signature move Sacred Fire.

They’re replaced in the battles with Hydro Pump and Fire Blast respectively.

I mean, I'm pretty sure this was part of the incentive to get both games, since they're not version-exclusive like later pairs like Groudon and Kyogre are. You get the opposite legendary, you just don't get its best move.

What annoys me is that they never did a Stadium/2 rerelease alongside the VC titles. I mean yeah you can just ACE if you're desperate to relearn moves but there were also a bunch of Pokemon from the Stadium games with exclusive moves that'd have been cool to get. Mainly it sucks because I never played the Stadium games when they were current and probably never will.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Been dabbling in the Battle Hall lately and using some weaker species for fun - makes you appreciate how, even in Gen IV, some Pokemon had really limited movesets back in the day. Cherrim for example learns almost no attacking moves that aren't Grass or Normal.

One way of expanding a small moveset is Natural Gift, which I've been experimenting with on some sets. Always liked the idea of this move, but it's frustratingly hard to use in concept because it's often very difficult to justify giving up a moveslot and your item slot for the sake of a move that has no additional effects, usually has no STAB, and isn't especially strong.

The way they distributed the types out among the various berries is genuinely quite well-done; there's no Steel-type move with the maximum possible BP (but who cares, it's Steel in Gen IV). Something neat is that all the type-resist berries all yield a 60 BP move of their own type, so that's at least easy to remember. Though the circumstances in which you'd want a resistance to a certain type and also a move of that type are quite uncommon, frequently making it that much harder to justify sacrificing your item slot. 60 BP is quite weak, though, so if you want a slightly more powerful move you have to turn to the rarer berries: Watmel-Belue and Liechi-onwards all yield an 80 BP move of various types.

But considering how rare and special the Lansat-Rowap berries are in particular, it seems really underwhelming for them to just be a standard 80 BP move with no other effects. Hell, the Starf and Enigma berry being a single type at all seems kind of counterintuitive given that the Starf is meant to be a blend of all flavours and the Enigma is supposed to be a mysterious berry with untold powers.

It's all academic as I don't have most of those berries in Gen IV but hell, you'd think their effects would be an attack with typeless damage (yes, I know this is hard to make work effectively from a mechanical standpoint) or a move which always hits super-effectively or something. Idk, just something a bit more interesting than... that.

Gen VI, at least, upped Natural Gift's power across the board before Gen VIII snipped the move from existence. Which probably wasn't that much of a loss. It's a move that never really lived up to its potential outside of some very limited uses.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Having 3 separate regional Pokedexes in SV instead of one unified one is so incredibly irritating for organizational purposes, especially when the box UI displays only the Paldea ID number.

Jacq is such a slacker.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Gyarados having its Special Attack gutted in the Special split. The joke of a weak pathetic fish turning into a giant rampaging dragon doesn't land as well when its Hydro Pumps and Fire Blasts aren't actually that strong.

Make Gyarados the 580 BST leviathan it was originally designed to be, Game Freak, you cowards.

 

[Samtendo09]

Gyarados having its Special Attack gutted in the Special split. The joke of a weak pathetic fish turning into a giant rampaging dragon doesn't land as well when its Hydro Pumps and Fire Blasts aren't actually that strong.

Make Gyarados the 580 BST leviathan it was originally designed to be, Game Freak, you cowards.

Or at least give it actual physical moves beyond Water STAB, Bounce, Power Whip (which is good vs opposing Water, granted) and Dark moves. Raging Fury fits so well for it’s PokéDex entry and help with pesky Steel-type that can tank Water STAB, like Ferrothorn.


Flareon is another example gutted by the Special Split. 95 Special Attack is nowhere as impressive as 110, and if it has 110 Special Attack, it would make for a strong mixed attacker for Gen 2 in-game instead of an odd master of none that can’t make the most of it’s Attack due to lack of physical coverage and, in later Generations, lack of strong and reliable. Even Flare Blitz (due to low HP) or Temper Flare weren’t enough. Granted, 95 Special Defense and slow Speed means it would suffer being slow and frail on both side, leaving it aging poorly either way.

 

[R_N]

Or at least give it actual physical moves beyond Water STAB, Bounce, Power Whip (which is good vs opposing Water, granted) and Dark moves. Raging Fury fits so well for it’s PokéDex entry and help with pesky Steel-type that can tank Water STAB, like Ferrothorn.

Gyarados does have actual physical moves though?
In addition to Crunch (& Lash Out, I guess) and Waterfall it gets:
Dragon coverage is always hit or miss on how useful it actually is, but it has Outrage and now Scale Shot
Iron head
Stone Edge
Earthquake

And if we want to give a pittance to the slightly weaker coverage moves it has Ice Fang and the new Temper Flare

Like I dunno for a physically attacking fish with no limbs it's doing pretty well for itself, flying stab beyond Bounce being it's only real achiles heel. Maybe give it Close Combat like the other violent fish.

 

[pika pal]

Gyarados I think exemplifies some other design issues even if they don't hinder it as much, my biggest example being "Flying moves that aren't Bird/Wing Coded".

Most things have to deal with low-accuracy Hurricane or the pitifully weak Air Slash on the Special Side, and good luck being a Physical Flying Attacker if you're not a Bird, suited to Acrobatics (i.e. a set that can "use up" its item reliably), or getting a Signature like Rayquaza. I'm still more than a bit annoyed that Dragonite lost Dual Wingbeat between Gens

This is striking to me in part because Gamefreak keeps designing Flying Pokemon for whom this affects their options like Celesteela/Enamorus/Iron Jugulis, yet despite these being prominent/Legendary level Pokemon they'd want to market, they're hampered in decent part by those exclusions and not really designed to work with the weaker or inconsistent options instead either (compare several Pokemon with Sharpness getting it to utilize the weak "Cutting" moves better while adhering to their design flavor).

I'm not strictly saying Flying should get those consistent moves as an easy solution, but that the current moves have a design ethos that a lot of the Pokemon either can't mesh with or are extremely limited by matching to it.

 

[Eeveeto]

Or at least give it actual physical moves beyond Water STAB, Bounce, Power Whip (which is good vs opposing Water, granted) and Dark moves. Raging Fury fits so well for it’s PokéDex entry and help with pesky Steel-type that can tank Water STAB, like Ferrothorn.


Flareon is another example gutted by the Special Split. 95 Special Attack is nowhere as impressive as 110, and if it has 110 Special Attack, it would make for a strong mixed attacker for Gen 2 in-game instead of an odd master of none that can’t make the most of it’s Attack due to lack of physical coverage and, in later Generations, lack of strong and reliable. Even Flare Blitz (due to low HP) or Temper Flare weren’t enough. Granted, 95 Special Defense and slow Speed means it would suffer being slow and frail on both side, leaving it aging poorly either way.

For me, 95 Special Attack and 110 Sdef is better than the opposite. As a Mixed Fire Mon, Cross Chop Magmar was always better, Charizard and Typhlosion too. One way or another, Flareon was always destined to fail after RBY.
Where it could have been saved is in the Movepool and later ability department. Still don't understand why Eevee has 3 different abilities and all the evolutions just 2. With Contrary Flareon could have abused Overheat + Superpower despite being slow. With Drought, it could have been a bulky Sun setter that could heal with Wish, itself and teammates. U-Turn or some priority Fire move could have improved Flareon too, but it got nothing. Every Eeveelution ended up falling due to movepool problems, but Flareon sooner than any other.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Y'all, the problem with Gyarados isn't its movepool. Its movepool, even its physical one, is fine. The problem is that it's bad at shooting lasers.

 

[badabing]

good to hear from you pumpkinz its been too long

 

[DrPumpkinz]

good to hear from you pumpkinz its been too long

So long that I don't recognize you at all. Where do we know each other from?

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Being as the Special split was mentioned, Gyarados' physical moveset really is ass in Gen II. The only offensive moves it gets are Normal if you're not turning to Hidden Power (which ironically if you're using the Red Gyarados you can't do) - it got Reversal in an event, which is... not nothing, I guess. It honestly makes its Gen III moveset look vast by comparison, and the only other physical options Gen III gave it are Earthquake and... Rock Smash. But at least there it has Dragon Dance.

 

[Leif98]

Gyarados having its Special Attack gutted in the Special split. The joke of a weak pathetic fish turning into a giant rampaging dragon doesn't land as well when its Hydro Pumps and Fire Blasts aren't actually that strong.

Make Gyarados the 580 BST leviathan it was originally designed to be, Game Freak, you cowards.

which is exactly why made it into a 560 BST mixed attacker with crazy stats in my hypothetical personal preference rebalance spreadsheet.
It should be able to deal massive damage both by lasers and physical force.
And yes, I have spreadsheets for personal preference rebalance of all BSTs and abilties in case I ever make a mod for myself. (it's also quite fun to think about stuff like this, at least for me)
Made the hard times I was going through back then a bit more fun/tolerable too (which is also why I even had the time to do it.)
(I hope this doesn't count as wishlisting...)

Gyarados I think exemplifies some other design issues even if they don't hinder it as much, my biggest example being "Flying moves that aren't Bird/Wing Coded".

THIS. Flying at this point is very much a Wind type but the stronger moves seemingly still think in bird terms on the physical side.

 

[Samtendo09]

which is exactly why made it into a 560 BST mixed attacker with crazy stats in my hypothetical personal preference rebalance spreadsheet.
It should be able to deal massive damage both by lasers and physical force.
And yes, I have spreadsheets for personal preference rebalance of all BSTs and abilties in case I ever make a mod for myself. (it's also quite fun to think about stuff like this, at least for me)
Made the hard times I was going through back then a bit more fun/tolerable too (which is also why I even had the time to do it.)
(I hope this doesn't count as wishlisting...)




THIS. Flying at this point is very much a Wind type but the stronger moves seemingly still think in bird terms on the physical side.

I would like to see the spreadsheets, but in a Conversation (private message). I don’t want it to turn into a wishlisting thread here.

Flying combines titular flying, gliding and wind, and I wish GF wasn’t so insistant on bird aspect of the type nowadays.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Flying combines titular flying, gliding and wind, and I wish GF wasn’t so insistant on bird aspect of the type nowadays.

I never really thought about this but I think you've hit on something interesting.

We know that there was a scrapped Bird-type, which was seemingly folded into the Flying-type late in development of Gen I presumably to allow for a greater variance of what "Flying" meant - legend-inspired designs like Gyarados, airborne items like Jumpluff, and in general all manner of creatures which fly but aren't birds (bugs, bats, etc). But lately they do seem to have drawn it in somewhat - the vast majority of Flying-types from recent gens have been birds, with only a couple of interesting exceptions. And even for those exceptions - I'm thinking of Minior, Celesteela, Iron Jugulis - they're mostly Flying because they have an ability which occupies the space Levitate might otherwise have been expected to take.

 

[R_N]

I never really thought about this but I think you've hit on something interesting.

We know that there was a scrapped Bird-type, which was seemingly folded into the Flying-type late in development of Gen I presumably to allow for a greater variance of what "Flying" meant - legend-inspired designs like Gyarados, airborne items like Jumpluff, and in general all manner of creatures which fly but aren't birds (bugs, bats, etc). But lately they do seem to have drawn it in somewhat - the vast majority of Flying-types from recent gens have been birds, with only a couple of interesting exceptions. And even for those exceptions - I'm thinking of Minior, Celesteela, Iron Jugulis - they're mostly Flying because they have an ability which occupies the space Levitate might otherwise have been expected to take.

I think Minior & Celesteela should definitely not be written off as occupying Levitate

minior is basically made out of materials barely connected together, floating through the atmosphere and are going to dissipate in the wind
Celesteela is a rocket ship! Flying around is very relevant, you know?

Both of those feel like Flying was very purposely chosen as part of their design.



...Jugulis probably was chosen Flying because Hydreigon had Levitate though, yes. Probably less from a mechanical perspective, and more a "we want to reference this aspect" way.


Gen 9 did kind of go off with birds though yeah, which is funny. 6 flying types, 5 of which were birds (across 4 distinct lines!). Not to mention the non-flying Quaquaval, Espathra, Fezandpiti

 

[QuentinQuonce]

I think Minior & Celesteela should definitely not be written off as occupying Levitate

minior is basically made out of materials barely connected together, floating through the atmosphere and are going to dissipate in the wind
Celesteela is a rocket ship! Flying around is very relevant, you know?

Both of those feel like Flying was very purposely chosen as part of their design.

See, yeah, but also no. Minior is a meteorite - a rock which falls to earth. It floats - why exactly? Well, the Pokedex tells us "It falls to the ground once the outer shell enclosing its core grows heavy". Which isn't so much "it flies" as it is "it's lightweight and floats until it can't any more". Which definitely sounds more like Levitate. And it doesn't really have any Flying-related moves or capabilities - how many Flying moves does it learn by level? None. The only one it can get via TM is Acrobatics, which is one of those nonspecific moves a whole tranche of Pokemon learn. Celesteela though, yeah, probably, there's a lot more association there.

But they're both very reminiscent of a lot of "big bulky things that float" species like Claydol and Bronzong and Cryogonal so it's definitely not a far-out idea that they'd be Levitate mons in an alternate timeline.

 

[pika pal]

See, yeah, but also no. Minior is a meteorite - a rock which falls to earth. It floats - why exactly? Well, the Pokedex tells us "It falls to the ground once the outer shell enclosing its core grows heavy". Which isn't so much "it flies" as it is "it's lightweight and floats until it can't any more". Which definitely sounds more like Levitate. And it doesn't really have any Flying-related moves or capabilities - how many Flying moves does it learn by level? None. The only one it can get via TM is Acrobatics, which is one of those nonspecific moves a whole tranche of Pokemon learn. Celesteela though, yeah, probably, there's a lot more association there.

But they're both very reminiscent of a lot of "big bulky things that float" species like Claydol and Bronzong and Cryogonal so it's definitely not a far-out idea that they'd be Levitate mons in an alternate timeline.

My counter point for Celesteela: It's a giant rocket, depicted specifically with propulsion systems to give it lift rather than magic/non-descript flying capability like the other mons mentioned through out. Golurk gets Fly for the same reason despite none of its abilities being Levitate, lacking a Flying type, and not visibly having an ungrounded "neutral" pose.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

My counter point for Celesteela: It's a giant rocket, depicted specifically with propulsion systems to give it lift rather than magic/non-descript flying capability like the other mons mentioned through out. Golurk gets Fly for the same reason despite none of its abilities being Levitate, lacking a Flying type, and not visibly having an ungrounded "neutral" pose.

That's true, but then for Golurk you could also ask why that's not a Flying-type (the most likely answer being "you can only have two types, and Ground and Ghost are more important to its overall character than one ability it happens to possess"). Being a rocket, Celesteela could quite easily have been Steel/Fire or Steel/Psychic or even pure Steel and just learned a bunch of Flying moves.

I'm not saying it doesn't make sense as a Flying-type, really. Just that it's not one which I instinctively associate that element with. Maybe because, like a lot of Levitate mons, its animations generally put me in mind of something which floats rather than something which flies.

Although here I am advocating for a greater variance and creativity when it comes to that type and then in the other breath saying "nah, that doesn't look like a Flying-type to me". So what do I know.

 

[Ironmage]

That's true, but then for Golurk you could also ask why that's not a Flying-type (the most likely answer being "you can only have two types, and Ground and Ghost are more important to its overall character than one ability it happens to possess"). Being a rocket, Celesteela could quite easily have been Steel/Fire or Steel/Psychic or even pure Steel and just learned a bunch of Flying moves.

I'm not saying it doesn't make sense as a Flying-type, really. Just that it's not one which I instinctively associate that element with. Maybe because, like a lot of Levitate mons, its animations generally put me in mind of something which floats rather than something which flies.

Although here I am advocating for a greater variance and creativity when it comes to that type and then in the other breath saying "nah, that doesn't look like a Flying-type to me". So what do I know.

I actually think of Celesteela as being Steel/Grass if it wasn't Flying because of being based on bamboo rockets specifically, having lower-distribution Grass moves like Leech Seed, and it sharing both types with Kartana would mirror how both UB02s are Bug/Fighting.

 

[pika pal]

I actually think of Celesteela as being Steel/Grass if it wasn't Flying because of being based on bamboo rockets specifically, having lower-distribution Grass moves like Leech Seed, and it sharing both types with Kartana would mirror how both UB02s are Bug/Fighting.

You just made me imagine this thing as basically Ferrothorn but able to attack and I feel ill now.

 

[Suspicious Derivative]

Being as the Special split was mentioned, Gyarados' physical moveset really is ass in Gen II. The only offensive moves it gets are Normal if you're not turning to Hidden Power (which ironically if you're using the Red Gyarados you can't do) - it got Reversal in an event, which is... not nothing, I guess. It honestly makes its Gen III moveset look vast by comparison, and the only other physical options Gen III gave it are Earthquake and... Rock Smash. But at least there it has Dragon Dance.

Minor correction, but Gyarados could learn Rock Smash back in Gen 2. The only reason I know this is because I used a Gyarados with Rock Smash on my recent playthrough of Crystal. But I didn't know it could get Reversal through an event. Gen 2 had some really interesting event moves for Pokémon.

 

[WinterArcanine]

I would like to see the spreadsheets, but in a Conversation (private message). I don’t want it to turn into a wishlisting thread here.

Flying combines titular flying, gliding and wind, and I wish GF wasn’t so insistant on bird aspect of the type nowadays.

I'd also love to see it Leif98

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Minor correction, but Gyarados could learn Rock Smash back in Gen 2. The only reason I know this is because I used a Gyarados with Rock Smash on my recent playthrough of Crystal. But I didn't know it could get Reversal through an event. Gen 2 had some really interesting event moves for Pokémon.

Oh, I done goofed when I wrote that and was looking at the HM section having forgotten it was a TM in GSC. Well that's something, Gyarados has Normal/Fighting coverage in Gen II, albeit via the worst Fighting move in the game.

Yeah Gen II's event moves were brilliant. Zap Cannon Squirtle is a particular weird favourite of mine. Really makes you appreciate how crap a lot of Gen II's movesets are courtesy of Gen II's, uh... interesting TM list. Qwilfish gets Double-Edge which feels ridiculously basic given that it's a TM in Gen I for instance.