This is definitely a pet mod, not an OM.
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Project Metagame Workshop
- Thread starter KaenSoul
- Start date
Fair enough. I'll prob take this over there if more people agree (I'm on the fence, leaning towards pet mod)
You are modifying the effects of unrelated items in a case by case basis, thats a pet mod.
Makes sense, I'ma take this over there then.
Preface: Ever since the beginning of Pokemon the possibility of Fusing Pokemon together has been present.
Metagame Name: Fusions (We’re different form Cross Evolution, LOL)
Metagame premise: Fuse two Pokemon together to create unique typings, stats, abilities, and move pools (move pool illegalities are bypassed).
Rules: Any two Pokemon can be fused (irregardless of evolution stage, too differentiate from Cross Evolution, LOL)
Example:
(Pokemon 1 Base Stat + Pokemon 2 Base Stat)/2 (Aka the Average of the two Pokemon’s Stats) = Fusion Pokemon Base Stat
Note: (All BST values are Pokerounded, 0.5 is rounded down)
Pokemon 1 Type 1 + Pokemon 2 Type 1 = Pokemon Fusion Pokemon 1 Type 1/Pokemon 2 Type 1
Example: Luvdisc + Trapinch = Pokemon Fusion Water/Ground Type
(Potential Abilities: Swift Swim, Hydration, Hyper Cutter, Arena Trap, Sheer Force)
(HP: 44, Atk: 65, Def: 50, SpA: 42 SpD: 55: Spe: 53 BST: 309)
Pokemon 1 Type 1 + Pokemon 2 Dual Typing = 1 of 2 options, Pokemon Fusion Pokemon 1 Type 1/Pokemon 2 Type 1 OR Pokemon Fusions Pokemon 1 Type 1/ Pokemon 2 Type 2.
Example: Luvdisc + Flygon = Pokemon Fusion Water/Ground Type OR Pokemon Fusion Water/Dragon Type
(Potential Abilities:Swift Swim, Hydration, Levitate)
For Both Fusions: (HP: 61, Atk: 65, Def: 67, SpA: 60, SpD: 72, Spe: 98: BST: 423)
How to Differentiate between Forms:
Base Luvdisc + Nickname Flygon = Pokemon Fusion Water/Ground
Base Luvdisc + Nickname Flygon* = Pokemon Fusion Water/Dragon
Note the asterisk is very important in the name convention.
Pokemon 1 Dual Typing + Pokemon 2 Type 1 = 1 of 2 options, Pokemon Fusion Pokemon 1 Type 1/Pokemon 2 Type 1 OR Pokemon Fusions Pokemon 1 Type 2/Pokemon 2 Type 1
Example: Flygon + Luvdisc = Pokemon Fusion Ground/Water Type OR Pokemon Fusion Dragon/Water
(Potential Abilities:Swift Swim, Hydration, Levitate)
For Both Fusions: (HP: 61, Atk: 65, Def: 67, SpA: 60, SpD: 72, Spe: 98: BST: 423)
How to Differentiate between Forms:
Base Flygon + Nickname Luvdisc = Pokemon Fusion Ground/Water
Base Flygon + Nickname Luvdisc*= Pokemon Fusion Dragon/Water
Note the asterisk is very important in the name convention.
Pokemon 1 Dual Type + Pokemon 2 Dual Type = 1 of 4 options, Pokemon Fusion Pokemon 1 Type 1/Pokemon 2 Type 1 OR Pokemon Fusion Pokemon 1 Type 1/Pokemon 2 Type 2 OR Pokemon Fusion Pokemon 1 Type 2/Pokemon 2 Type 1 OR Pokemon Fusion Pokemon 1 Type 2/Pokemon 2 Type 2
Example: Toxapex + Landorus Incarnate = Pokemon Fusion Poison/Ground OR Pokemon Fusion Poison/Flying OR Pokemon Fusion Ground/Water OR Pokemon Fusion Flying/Water
(Potential Abilities: Merciless, Limber, Regenerator, Sand Force, Sheer Force)
For all 4 Fusions: (HP: 69, Atk: 94, Def: 121, SpA: 84, SpD: 111, Spe: 68, BST: 547)
How to Differentiate between Forms:
Base Toxapex (Poison/Type 1) + Nickname Landorus Incarnate (Ground/Type 1) = Pokemon Fusion Poison/Ground
Base Toxapex (Poison/Type 1) + Nickname Landorus Incarnate* (Flying/Type 2) = Pokemon Fusion Poison/Flying
Base Landorus Incarnate (Ground/Type 1) + Nickname Toxapex* (Water/Type 2) = Pokemon Fusion Ground/Water
Base Landorus Incarnate* (Flying/Type 2) + Nickname Toxapex* (!) (Water/Type 2) = Pokemon Fusion Flying/Water
Note the asterisk and exclamation point are very important in the naming convention.
* = Secondary Typing
! = Secondary Typing for Both Base and Nickname
Potential bans and threats:
Clauses:
Terastal Clause
Endless Battle Clause
Sleep Clause Mod
Evasion Move Clause
Evasion Ability Clause
HP Percentage Mod
Illusion Level Mod
Bans (* denotes potential ban):
*Arceus (Multitype) (BST 720)
*Slaking (670 BST)
Silvally (RKS System)
*Blissey (255 HP)
*Chansey (250 HP)
Zen Mode (complicates things)
Shields Down (complicates things)
Eviolite (complicates things)
*Trapping Abilities (except Magnet Pull)
Questions for the community:
How do you want to deal with Uber Pokemon?
I'm leaning toward allowing them in due to the fact that the base stat totals are averages. Potential to make it so that you can’t fuse two Uber Pokemon together. Other limitations include banning any Pokemon with a BST above 600 from being a fusion.
Example: Arceus + Landorus Incarnate = Pokemon Fusion Normal/Ground OR Normal/Flying
(HP: 104, Atk:122, Def: 105, SpA: 117, SpD: 100, Spe: 110 BST:658)
How do we want to deal with Form Changes?
Arceus and Sivally both have form changes that are dependent on items, and other pokemon like Darmanitan have form changes dependent on HP, leaning toward making it so that Form Changes don’t happen in Fusions due to the fact that things like Arceus Mulittype and Darmanitan’s Zen Form complicates things.
Pokemon Weight?
Pokemon fusions weights are just averages of the two pokemon, makes Pokemon generally heavier, which plays into things like Grass knot becoming better etc.
Trapping? Leaning toward leaving trapping in at the beginning, can always be quick banned later. Pokemon with Trapping abilities tend to have pretty average BST, so it is an Opportunity Cost to use trapping which makes it not as broken.
Illusion?
Stays legal just as in Cross Evolution, LOL (we’re different I swear)
Eviolite, Light Ball Etc.?
Don’t work just like in Cross Evolution, LOL (I swear we’re different)
Commands
/Fus {First Pokemon Name}, {Second Pokemon Name + * or !} = Pokemon Fusion
Metagame Name: Fusions (We’re different form Cross Evolution, LOL)
Metagame premise: Fuse two Pokemon together to create unique typings, stats, abilities, and move pools (move pool illegalities are bypassed).
Rules: Any two Pokemon can be fused (irregardless of evolution stage, too differentiate from Cross Evolution, LOL)
Example:
(Pokemon 1 Base Stat + Pokemon 2 Base Stat)/2 (Aka the Average of the two Pokemon’s Stats) = Fusion Pokemon Base Stat
Note: (All BST values are Pokerounded, 0.5 is rounded down)
Pokemon 1 Type 1 + Pokemon 2 Type 1 = Pokemon Fusion Pokemon 1 Type 1/Pokemon 2 Type 1
Example: Luvdisc + Trapinch = Pokemon Fusion Water/Ground Type
(Potential Abilities: Swift Swim, Hydration, Hyper Cutter, Arena Trap, Sheer Force)
(HP: 44, Atk: 65, Def: 50, SpA: 42 SpD: 55: Spe: 53 BST: 309)
Pokemon 1 Type 1 + Pokemon 2 Dual Typing = 1 of 2 options, Pokemon Fusion Pokemon 1 Type 1/Pokemon 2 Type 1 OR Pokemon Fusions Pokemon 1 Type 1/ Pokemon 2 Type 2.
Example: Luvdisc + Flygon = Pokemon Fusion Water/Ground Type OR Pokemon Fusion Water/Dragon Type
(Potential Abilities:Swift Swim, Hydration, Levitate)
For Both Fusions: (HP: 61, Atk: 65, Def: 67, SpA: 60, SpD: 72, Spe: 98: BST: 423)
How to Differentiate between Forms:
Base Luvdisc + Nickname Flygon = Pokemon Fusion Water/Ground
Base Luvdisc + Nickname Flygon* = Pokemon Fusion Water/Dragon
Note the asterisk is very important in the name convention.
Pokemon 1 Dual Typing + Pokemon 2 Type 1 = 1 of 2 options, Pokemon Fusion Pokemon 1 Type 1/Pokemon 2 Type 1 OR Pokemon Fusions Pokemon 1 Type 2/Pokemon 2 Type 1
Example: Flygon + Luvdisc = Pokemon Fusion Ground/Water Type OR Pokemon Fusion Dragon/Water
(Potential Abilities:Swift Swim, Hydration, Levitate)
For Both Fusions: (HP: 61, Atk: 65, Def: 67, SpA: 60, SpD: 72, Spe: 98: BST: 423)
How to Differentiate between Forms:
Base Flygon + Nickname Luvdisc = Pokemon Fusion Ground/Water
Base Flygon + Nickname Luvdisc*= Pokemon Fusion Dragon/Water
Note the asterisk is very important in the name convention.
Pokemon 1 Dual Type + Pokemon 2 Dual Type = 1 of 4 options, Pokemon Fusion Pokemon 1 Type 1/Pokemon 2 Type 1 OR Pokemon Fusion Pokemon 1 Type 1/Pokemon 2 Type 2 OR Pokemon Fusion Pokemon 1 Type 2/Pokemon 2 Type 1 OR Pokemon Fusion Pokemon 1 Type 2/Pokemon 2 Type 2
Example: Toxapex + Landorus Incarnate = Pokemon Fusion Poison/Ground OR Pokemon Fusion Poison/Flying OR Pokemon Fusion Ground/Water OR Pokemon Fusion Flying/Water
(Potential Abilities: Merciless, Limber, Regenerator, Sand Force, Sheer Force)
For all 4 Fusions: (HP: 69, Atk: 94, Def: 121, SpA: 84, SpD: 111, Spe: 68, BST: 547)
How to Differentiate between Forms:
Base Toxapex (Poison/Type 1) + Nickname Landorus Incarnate (Ground/Type 1) = Pokemon Fusion Poison/Ground
Base Toxapex (Poison/Type 1) + Nickname Landorus Incarnate* (Flying/Type 2) = Pokemon Fusion Poison/Flying
Base Landorus Incarnate (Ground/Type 1) + Nickname Toxapex* (Water/Type 2) = Pokemon Fusion Ground/Water
Base Landorus Incarnate* (Flying/Type 2) + Nickname Toxapex* (!) (Water/Type 2) = Pokemon Fusion Flying/Water
Note the asterisk and exclamation point are very important in the naming convention.
* = Secondary Typing
! = Secondary Typing for Both Base and Nickname
Potential bans and threats:
Clauses:
Terastal Clause
Endless Battle Clause
Sleep Clause Mod
Evasion Move Clause
Evasion Ability Clause
HP Percentage Mod
Illusion Level Mod
Bans (* denotes potential ban):
*Arceus (Multitype) (BST 720)
*Slaking (670 BST)
Silvally (RKS System)
*Blissey (255 HP)
*Chansey (250 HP)
Zen Mode (complicates things)
Shields Down (complicates things)
Eviolite (complicates things)
*Trapping Abilities (except Magnet Pull)
Questions for the community:
How do you want to deal with Uber Pokemon?
I'm leaning toward allowing them in due to the fact that the base stat totals are averages. Potential to make it so that you can’t fuse two Uber Pokemon together. Other limitations include banning any Pokemon with a BST above 600 from being a fusion.
Example: Arceus + Landorus Incarnate = Pokemon Fusion Normal/Ground OR Normal/Flying
(HP: 104, Atk:122, Def: 105, SpA: 117, SpD: 100, Spe: 110 BST:658)
How do we want to deal with Form Changes?
Arceus and Sivally both have form changes that are dependent on items, and other pokemon like Darmanitan have form changes dependent on HP, leaning toward making it so that Form Changes don’t happen in Fusions due to the fact that things like Arceus Mulittype and Darmanitan’s Zen Form complicates things.
Pokemon Weight?
Pokemon fusions weights are just averages of the two pokemon, makes Pokemon generally heavier, which plays into things like Grass knot becoming better etc.
Trapping? Leaning toward leaving trapping in at the beginning, can always be quick banned later. Pokemon with Trapping abilities tend to have pretty average BST, so it is an Opportunity Cost to use trapping which makes it not as broken.
Illusion?
Stays legal just as in Cross Evolution, LOL (we’re different I swear)
Eviolite, Light Ball Etc.?
Don’t work just like in Cross Evolution, LOL (I swear we’re different)
Commands
/Fus {First Pokemon Name}, {Second Pokemon Name + * or !} = Pokemon Fusion
We already have a format about fusing, among other flavors of combining pokemon like convergence, inheritance and cross evo, we avoid approving more ideas that are too similar to existing ones.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/frantic-fusions-new-resources-post-387.3725593/
What Kaensoul said and there's also already an entire alternate server comprised entirely of this if I can track it down.
Edit: https://play.pokeathlon.com/
So there was some offline discussion around the Fusions Metagame between KaenSoul and I, Below is the thread. TLDR; I believe KaenSoul should respectfully reconsider his assessment of Fusions as a Metagame, as I don't believe the level of scrutiny between Cross Evolution and Frantic Fusions holds up and that the player base should decide the fate of Fusions through the voting stage. I'm saddened that the radio silence after my last posting has occurred, but it seems that refusing to continue discussion has left me no choice but to call out KaenSoul for his actions. I have given him 8 hours to respond, but to no avail. So I copy paste the offline discussion for Public Discourse to decide the fate of Fusions (see below).
Let me reintegrate that Fusions is a different Metagame than Cross Evolution and Frantic Fusions, the level to which the scrutiny over how similar the Metagame between Fusions and Cross Evolutions exists is absurd. Why does Frantic Fusions get a pass and be accepted as a Metagame when anyone can see how similar it is to Cross Evolutions, why does Fusions get scrutinized to this level of Similarities such that it gets rejected. Again, I say let the player base decide the fate of Fusions through the voting stage, at least then if it fails miserably the player base has spoken, and the Metagame fails due to community census and not just the gate-keeping of one individual. I leave the burden of proof with the community to decide the fate of Fusions.
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Yesterday at 11:56 PM
Hey saw your response to my post in the Metagame Workshop,
I'd like to first start of by saying that Fusions is different from other Cross evolution because it uses Pokemon at any evolutionary stage, and its different from frantic fusions because its the average BST of the two fusion Pokemon instead of donor's base stats quartered (rounded down) and added on top of its base stats, except HP.
Second, I think banning Pokemon with a BST above 600 will make the Meta very interesting, which differentiates the Meta from Cross Evo and Frantic Fusions which don't have such limitations. Plus trapping may be legal in Fusions as opposed to Cross Evo and Frantic Fusions.
I respectfully ask for you to reconsider your assessment of Fusions.
Reply
Edit
KaenSoul
Shared:Power Little Knight
Community Leader
Today at 12:15 AM
The responses should stay in the thread so anyone can commend on it, but anyway, frantic fusions originally had the same way to define stats but was changed because is not that impactful, and either way, even if your format is different, it doesn't change the fact we already have plenty with a similar premise, we don't need another to compete with that niche.
Check out my fakemons!
Like Reply
CamJay12
Today at 12:24 AM
I honestly don't think that Metagames should be seen as competition for niches, I see Fusions as its own separate Metagame, plus I think the people at Cross Evo and Frantic Fusions, wouldn't mind there being a Similar Metagame being present. Having this level of scrutiny is obscene if you compare Cross Evo to Frantic Fusions, Which one came first? Why wasn't the second one rejected, oh right it wasn't, and anyone can see the similarities between those two meta-games. Allowing one to exist but not the other would be absurd. This level of scrutiny doesn't hold up unless your going to scrutinize every Metagame to this level.
I strongly think you should reconsidered. Theres no denying that Fusions has an element of Cross Evo and Frantic Fusions present, but that is not the only element in the Metagame. I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel here, just trying to take the natural evolution of the wheel and run with it as it were.
Reply
Edit
KaenSoul
Shared:Power Little Knight
Community Leader
Today at 12:54 AM
Again we should leave these discussions to the thread because is better if they are public but whatever.
Formats compete for a niche, because regardless of we liking it or not, there are so many OM players, we can't have too many formats that are similar to each other, or we just divide their playerbase, then none get enough popularity to actually get anywhere.
We have been more strict with these for around a year, that's why is not that weird to find formats that are similar to each other, we are trying to change that.
Check out my fakemons!
Like Reply
CamJay12
Today at 1:06 AM
Look I don't mind copy pasting this discussion into the Metagame Workshop for Public discourse.
I disagree that dividing the OM player base is a real issue. We have 3 OM that get spotlighted each month, there's plenty of OM players to go around. If Fusions, Cross Evolutions, and Frantic Fusions all get spotlighted than I could see there being a split in the OM Player base, but I Highly doubt that those 3 Metagames would all be spotlighted simultaneously, I see the rotation of the OM player base as a healthy part of the meta, it keeps ideas fresh.
Again I think you should reconsidered, there's no way that Fusions, Cross Evolutions, and Frantic Fusions would all be spotlighted in a month, that's why the voting stage exists, let the player base decide if they want Fusions to be spotlighted for a month, try it out, see how its different from other Metagames. What harm is there in trying out a Metagame? It takes up one slot in the OMotM, and if it fails miserably than at least we know that the player base has spoken.
Reply
Edit
CamJay12
Today at 7:37 AM
Just heard about Pokeathlon, a dedicated server to Fusions, but there is like 20 people max on the server, think bringing Fusions to the masses would help boost Pokeathlon numbers.
Let me reintegrate that Fusions is a different Metagame than Cross Evolution and Frantic Fusions, the level to which the scrutiny over how similar the Metagame between Fusions and Cross Evolutions exists is absurd. Why does Frantic Fusions get a pass and be accepted as a Metagame when anyone can see how similar it is to Cross Evolutions, why does Fusions get scrutinized to this level of Similarities such that it gets rejected. Again, I say let the player base decide the fate of Fusions through the voting stage, at least then if it fails miserably the player base has spoken, and the Metagame fails due to community census and not just the gate-keeping of one individual. I leave the burden of proof with the community to decide the fate of Fusions.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yesterday at 11:56 PM
Hey saw your response to my post in the Metagame Workshop,
I'd like to first start of by saying that Fusions is different from other Cross evolution because it uses Pokemon at any evolutionary stage, and its different from frantic fusions because its the average BST of the two fusion Pokemon instead of donor's base stats quartered (rounded down) and added on top of its base stats, except HP.
Second, I think banning Pokemon with a BST above 600 will make the Meta very interesting, which differentiates the Meta from Cross Evo and Frantic Fusions which don't have such limitations. Plus trapping may be legal in Fusions as opposed to Cross Evo and Frantic Fusions.
I respectfully ask for you to reconsider your assessment of Fusions.
Reply
Edit
KaenSoul
Shared:Power Little Knight
Community Leader
Today at 12:15 AM
The responses should stay in the thread so anyone can commend on it, but anyway, frantic fusions originally had the same way to define stats but was changed because is not that impactful, and either way, even if your format is different, it doesn't change the fact we already have plenty with a similar premise, we don't need another to compete with that niche.
Check out my fakemons!
Like Reply
CamJay12
Today at 12:24 AM
I honestly don't think that Metagames should be seen as competition for niches, I see Fusions as its own separate Metagame, plus I think the people at Cross Evo and Frantic Fusions, wouldn't mind there being a Similar Metagame being present. Having this level of scrutiny is obscene if you compare Cross Evo to Frantic Fusions, Which one came first? Why wasn't the second one rejected, oh right it wasn't, and anyone can see the similarities between those two meta-games. Allowing one to exist but not the other would be absurd. This level of scrutiny doesn't hold up unless your going to scrutinize every Metagame to this level.
I strongly think you should reconsidered. Theres no denying that Fusions has an element of Cross Evo and Frantic Fusions present, but that is not the only element in the Metagame. I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel here, just trying to take the natural evolution of the wheel and run with it as it were.
Reply
Edit
KaenSoul
Shared:Power Little Knight
Community Leader
Today at 12:54 AM
Again we should leave these discussions to the thread because is better if they are public but whatever.
Formats compete for a niche, because regardless of we liking it or not, there are so many OM players, we can't have too many formats that are similar to each other, or we just divide their playerbase, then none get enough popularity to actually get anywhere.
We have been more strict with these for around a year, that's why is not that weird to find formats that are similar to each other, we are trying to change that.
Check out my fakemons!
Like Reply
CamJay12
Today at 1:06 AM
Look I don't mind copy pasting this discussion into the Metagame Workshop for Public discourse.
I disagree that dividing the OM player base is a real issue. We have 3 OM that get spotlighted each month, there's plenty of OM players to go around. If Fusions, Cross Evolutions, and Frantic Fusions all get spotlighted than I could see there being a split in the OM Player base, but I Highly doubt that those 3 Metagames would all be spotlighted simultaneously, I see the rotation of the OM player base as a healthy part of the meta, it keeps ideas fresh.
Again I think you should reconsidered, there's no way that Fusions, Cross Evolutions, and Frantic Fusions would all be spotlighted in a month, that's why the voting stage exists, let the player base decide if they want Fusions to be spotlighted for a month, try it out, see how its different from other Metagames. What harm is there in trying out a Metagame? It takes up one slot in the OMotM, and if it fails miserably than at least we know that the player base has spoken.
Reply
Edit
CamJay12
Today at 7:37 AM
Just heard about Pokeathlon, a dedicated server to Fusions, but there is like 20 people max on the server, think bringing Fusions to the masses would help boost Pokeathlon numbers.
I have a question. Why do I want to play this rather than ce or ff? Sell it to me. Also as a couple of notes on the other aspects, I feel like the typing thing is a bit overcomplicated. It would probably be better as mon 1 type 1/mon 2 type 2 (type 1 if no type 2). Also, there is an issue of there being no difference when you flip mons 1 & 2 other than typing. Glastrier/Great Tusk has the exact same stats and movepool as Great Tusk/Glastrier and they both share an Ice/Ground typing or possible typing. The only difference is that, with the current system, Glastrier/Great Tusk has access to Ice/Fighting. Pokeathlon and IF as a rom hack solves this by changing the stat formula and having different typings, but this should have a different solution as to differentiate it.
This leads to another point on the team preview. You see a glastrier. What could it be? Ursaluna? Great Tusk? Iron Hands? Regieleki? In FF, movepools and type aren't combined, giving it at least less of an impact. In CE, there aren't nearly as many options available for most mons and typing is only added in certain cases. In this proposed metagame, there could easily be no real way to tell what a mon might be running before it comes out. This is especially prevalent with the current type system. Additionally, in the teambuilder you get to choose what to pose as. Say you're using Glastrier/Great Tusk. You could pose as Glastrier/Ursaluna. As Great Tusk/Toxapex. Or any number of Glastrier or Great Tusk fusions. You could create an entire team that poses as a completely different style of team. It could be argued that this would just be a part of the metagame, but at a glance it just looks overcomplicated and difficult to counter on team preview.
This leads to another point on the team preview. You see a glastrier. What could it be? Ursaluna? Great Tusk? Iron Hands? Regieleki? In FF, movepools and type aren't combined, giving it at least less of an impact. In CE, there aren't nearly as many options available for most mons and typing is only added in certain cases. In this proposed metagame, there could easily be no real way to tell what a mon might be running before it comes out. This is especially prevalent with the current type system. Additionally, in the teambuilder you get to choose what to pose as. Say you're using Glastrier/Great Tusk. You could pose as Glastrier/Ursaluna. As Great Tusk/Toxapex. Or any number of Glastrier or Great Tusk fusions. You could create an entire team that poses as a completely different style of team. It could be argued that this would just be a part of the metagame, but at a glance it just looks overcomplicated and difficult to counter on team preview.
Why Play this Metagame over Cross Evolution or Frantic Fusions? I just want to preface the fact that Fusions has an element of CE and FF doesn't mean that they are the same thing, there are other elements that differentiate Fusions form CE and FF. Having Fusions be in the rotation of OM of the month, insures fresh new ideas and play styles, I highly doubt that Fusions, CE, and FF would all be spotlighted in the same month.
First of Fusions is a more pure form of IF as stats are calculated as averages of the two Fusion Pokemon, making it so that its easy enough for anyone to calculate the Fusion Pokemons base stats.
Second of all, the possibilities of Fusions are truly limitless, having it so that Mon 1 can be combined with Mon 2 in a max of 4 possible ways (assuming dual typing for each Mon).
Third of all, other elements of Fusions comes in to play that differentiates it from CE and FF, namely that trapping is legal due to trapping Mons having average BST, making it an opportunity cost to use said Mons.
Speaking of Opportunity Cost, Fusions thrives off of the Opportunity Cost Dilemma that is present. Do you Fuse Mons with high BSTs to get Fusions with high base stats but potentially less than Ideal typings, or do you Fuse Pokemon with great type combinations in contrast to there potentially average BST. The Opportunity Cost Dilemma is something that is central to Pokemon, Fusions accentuates this Dilemma by asking the player to make thoughtful decisions during team building.
At the end of the day, there's no denying that Fusions has an element of CE and FF present, namely the combining of Pokemon part, but just because it shares that similarity doesn't mean that it is a repeat of CE and FF.
I see it point about differences between it and FF. However, a major point I disagree on here is opportunity cost. There are plenty of big bst mons to complement each other well, more than enough to start to break the game. Regieleki would have to get banned as no one wants to deal with transistor vikavolt or iron hands with a usable, even good in this meta speed stat. So many pokemon would be able to have downright broken offensive capabilities based purely on STAB types (see my glastrier examples above). It could be near impossible to tell a bulky balance from a stall from a hyper offense when pokemon can instantly gain absurd speed, bulk, or STABs making the team preview unreadable. Overall it just doesn't feel like it would be a great meta to play as it's impossible to have a game plan until ur opponent has revealed one, two, or even three mons.
Just to prove my point, here are some sets I cobbled together (don't judge me too much I don't play much 6v6).
https://pokepast.es/c898b046505911f2
As we can see, just going off of Glastrier (a zu mon btw), I cobbled together 4 different sets with 3 separate roles. This brings me to my first point: a mon with just a few strong qualities can bring together multiple sets. All glastrier has going for it is a high attack stat and an offensive typing. From just that, I cobbled together 4 sets and one which might actually work (the regieleki one). And this is just from glastrier. Let's take a look at one of the most famous OU mons from this generation.
https://pokepast.es/e3f2399382608d70
JFC. I'm primarily a 1v1 player and I've managed to think of 6 at least usable sets. And I'm sure a better player than me would be able to fine tune these better and find even more sets. At team preview, if you see great Tusk, you need to think at least 6 things: Banded Breaker, RegenVest, Priority Spam, Fairy/Ground Booster Sweeper, Contrary Snowball, and Rock/Ground Booster Sweeper. This is my second point: I've said this a lot and I'll say it again. The team preview is unreadable. There are at least this many options for a single mon, with 6 mons to a team. Great tusk's archetype has absurd variety and that also goes for many other mons. Like I've said, the same team on preview could be running two completely opposite playstyles and you have no way of knowing until you're in the battle. Even then, a pokemon could be a completely different set than you expect. In most metas, a pokemon considered versatile might have 2 or 3 fairly different sets. In metas like inheritance or 1v1, it might have 4 or so. In fusions, it could easily have dozens. This is my biggest problem here.
https://pokepast.es/c898b046505911f2
As we can see, just going off of Glastrier (a zu mon btw), I cobbled together 4 different sets with 3 separate roles. This brings me to my first point: a mon with just a few strong qualities can bring together multiple sets. All glastrier has going for it is a high attack stat and an offensive typing. From just that, I cobbled together 4 sets and one which might actually work (the regieleki one). And this is just from glastrier. Let's take a look at one of the most famous OU mons from this generation.
https://pokepast.es/e3f2399382608d70
JFC. I'm primarily a 1v1 player and I've managed to think of 6 at least usable sets. And I'm sure a better player than me would be able to fine tune these better and find even more sets. At team preview, if you see great Tusk, you need to think at least 6 things: Banded Breaker, RegenVest, Priority Spam, Fairy/Ground Booster Sweeper, Contrary Snowball, and Rock/Ground Booster Sweeper. This is my second point: I've said this a lot and I'll say it again. The team preview is unreadable. There are at least this many options for a single mon, with 6 mons to a team. Great tusk's archetype has absurd variety and that also goes for many other mons. Like I've said, the same team on preview could be running two completely opposite playstyles and you have no way of knowing until you're in the battle. Even then, a pokemon could be a completely different set than you expect. In most metas, a pokemon considered versatile might have 2 or 3 fairly different sets. In metas like inheritance or 1v1, it might have 4 or so. In fusions, it could easily have dozens. This is my biggest problem here.
Metagame Name: Mini Mixers
Metagame premise: Combine any two Little Cup Pokemons to create Fusion Pokemon with unique typings, abilities, and move pools.
Rules: Any two Little Cup Pokemon can be fused (irregardless of evolution stage, too differentiate from Cross Evolution, LOL)
Example:
(Pokemon 1 Base Stat + Pokemon 2 Base Stat)/2 (Aka the Average of the two Pokemon’s Stats) = Fusion Pokemon Base Stat
Example: Mienfoo + Cleffa = Pokemon Fusion Fighting/Fairy
Potential Abilities: Inner Focus, Regenerator, Reckless, Cute Charm, Magic Guard, Friend Guard
(HP: 47, Atk 55, Def: 39, SpA: 50, SpD: 52, Spe: 40 BST:283)
Potential bans and threats:
Clauses:
Terastal Clause
Endless Battle Clause
Sleep Clause Mod
Evasion Move Clause
Evasion Ability Clause
HP Percentage Mod
Illusion Level Mod
Bans (* denotes potential ban):
Questions for the community: NA
Metagame premise: Combine any two Little Cup Pokemons to create Fusion Pokemon with unique typings, abilities, and move pools.
Rules: Any two Little Cup Pokemon can be fused (irregardless of evolution stage, too differentiate from Cross Evolution, LOL)
Example:
(Pokemon 1 Base Stat + Pokemon 2 Base Stat)/2 (Aka the Average of the two Pokemon’s Stats) = Fusion Pokemon Base Stat
Example: Mienfoo + Cleffa = Pokemon Fusion Fighting/Fairy
Potential Abilities: Inner Focus, Regenerator, Reckless, Cute Charm, Magic Guard, Friend Guard
(HP: 47, Atk 55, Def: 39, SpA: 50, SpD: 52, Spe: 40 BST:283)
Potential bans and threats:
Clauses:
Terastal Clause
Endless Battle Clause
Sleep Clause Mod
Evasion Move Clause
Evasion Ability Clause
HP Percentage Mod
Illusion Level Mod
Bans (* denotes potential ban):
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Aipom
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Basculin-White-Striped
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Corsola-Galar
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Cutiefly
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Drifloon
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Dunsparce
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Duraludon
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Flittle
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Girafarig
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Gligar
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Meditite
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Misdreavus
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Murkrow
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Porygon
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Qwilfish-Hisui
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Rufflet
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Scraggy
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Scyther
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Sneasel
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Sneasel-Hisui
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Stantler
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Swirlix
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Tangela
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Woobat
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Yanma
Questions for the community: NA
The OM does not really change any viability at all because all the Ubers and OU Pokemon will still be better than the majority of LC fusions.
The Splash Zone
Metagame premise: Spread moves will do damage to the entire party, but with 25% of the damage. Singles, OU-based meta.
Example 1: Landorus-T uses Earthquake against a Corviknight. Even though Corviknight is immune, its other 5 teammates are not, and therefore will be hit by Earthquake. On the other hand, Landorus-T's teammates are also not immune to Ground and will also get hit, because Earthquake also hits your ally. Earthquake receives the 25% damage reduction on all sides.
Example 2: Gholdengo uses Make It Rain against a Dondozo. Because Make It Rain is a spread move, it hits everyone on the opposing team, but not your own. Make It Rain receives the 50% damage reduction against both the Dondozo and the teammates of the Dondozo.
Example 3: Heatran uses Heat Wave against Gholdengo. Gholdengo gets hit by Heat Wave super effectively for 25% of its usual damage. However, the Gholdengo has a Heatran with Flash Fire, meaning only 5/6 of its teammates are damaged by Heat Wave.
Potential bans and threats:
Standard OU clauses + Terastal Clause
Yeah, this is probably getting banned instantly.
Superman teams will probably be great to spam the hell out of Earthquake.
Covert Cloak could be way stronger than usual, Heat Wave's burn chance stacks up when it's hitting 6 Pokemon at a time.
Questions for the community:
Is this too offense heavy of a meta? Are there any coding difficulties with implementing the mechanics? Did I fuck up and miss this in the commonly rejected suggestions part?
Metagame premise: Spread moves will do damage to the entire party, but with 25% of the damage. Singles, OU-based meta.
Example 1: Landorus-T uses Earthquake against a Corviknight. Even though Corviknight is immune, its other 5 teammates are not, and therefore will be hit by Earthquake. On the other hand, Landorus-T's teammates are also not immune to Ground and will also get hit, because Earthquake also hits your ally. Earthquake receives the 25% damage reduction on all sides.
Example 2: Gholdengo uses Make It Rain against a Dondozo. Because Make It Rain is a spread move, it hits everyone on the opposing team, but not your own. Make It Rain receives the 50% damage reduction against both the Dondozo and the teammates of the Dondozo.
Example 3: Heatran uses Heat Wave against Gholdengo. Gholdengo gets hit by Heat Wave super effectively for 25% of its usual damage. However, the Gholdengo has a Heatran with Flash Fire, meaning only 5/6 of its teammates are damaged by Heat Wave.
Potential bans and threats:
Standard OU clauses + Terastal Clause
Yeah, this is probably getting banned instantly. Superman teams will probably be great to spam the hell out of Earthquake. Covert Cloak could be way stronger than usual, Heat Wave's burn chance stacks up when it's hitting 6 Pokemon at a time.Questions for the community:
Is this too offense heavy of a meta? Are there any coding difficulties with implementing the mechanics? Did I fuck up and miss this in the commonly rejected suggestions part?
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The Splash Zone
Metagame premise: Spread moves will do damage to the entire party, but with 50% of the damage. Singles, OU-based meta.
Example 1: Landorus-T uses Earthquake against a Corviknight. Even though Corviknight is immune, its other 5 teammates are not, and therefore will be hit by Earthquake. On the other hand, Landorus-T's teammates are also not immune to Ground and will also get hit, because Earthquake also hits your ally. Earthquake receives the 50% damage reduction on all sides.
Example 2: Gholdengo uses Make It Rain against a Dondozo. Because Make It Rain is a spread move, it hits everyone on the opposing team, but not your own. Make It Rain receives the 50% damage reduction against both the Dondozo and the teammates of the Dondozo.
Example 3: Heatran uses Heat Wave against Gholdengo. Gholdengo gets hit by Heat Wave super effectively for 50% of its usual damage. However, the Gholdengo has a Heatran with Flash Fire, meaning only 5/6 of its teammates are damaged by Heat Wave.
Potential bans and threats:
Standard OU clauses + Terastal Clause
Questions for the community:
Is this too offense heavy of a meta? Are there any coding difficulties with implementing the mechanics? Did I fuck up and miss this in the commonly rejected suggestions part?
That kind of damage is way too much damage to do to literally everything on a person's team.
Use Expanding Force once, boom all your non-psychic resists have taken a good 1/3rd or half their health.
How about don't have secondary effects work like that either. Like damn you'll be taking a good chunk of your health and easily burned in 1 turn and you're not even on the field?
There really needs to be a larger penalty for using spread moves and a better way to defend against them too.
Edit: Oh and btw, Explosion is also a spread move. It’ll hit at 125 Power only, but that’s hitting everything on your opponent’s team too that is not a Ghost type. It’d be realistic to have your team be 6 exploders with coverage for Steel/Rock/Ghost types and you’d probably win before getting to your 4th Pokemon.
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I like this idea, but maybe make it 25% instead of 50% to match the damage level in doubles cuz 75%*2=25%*6.
I feel like this would be acceptable if the Meta was also a Doubles format.
There you could double target spread move users, fake them out, use Wide Guard, etc. The main problem is that there really is a lack of defensive options fpr your teammates other than typing or abilities.
Additionally make it so moves like Earthquake and Surf hit your teammates too to match other spread moves.
I'm not familiar with doubles, hence why I'm doing it as a singles meta. Assuming I'm on council(I probably will be for a while), I'd rather be a council member for a format I'm familiar with.
Also, Earthquake/Surf already do hit your teammate, at least in the concept. That's part of the balancing.
Editing the post to include this nerfed damage, good point with the damage calcs there.
Fair enough. Would recommend checking up on VGC or Smogon Doubles still. That’s where spread moves are an actual mechanic so they’d know what’d be best for balancing a meta around spread moves.
It sounds impossible to balance, as you can easily cheap down any possible defensive mon and offensive mons may die after two turns, and I'm not even sure this could be coded as I can't think of anything in the game that works in a similar way to this concept.
Ban Breaking
Premise: An Ubers-based format where a ban or illegality may be bypassed once on each Pokémon.
Extra Information: Calyrex-Shadow is unbanned, and using an illegal form (such as a mega) does not count as your “ban break”. Teams must be possible to use in Scarlet/Violet, assuming hacks/glitches were allowed.
Example: Baton Pass is normally banned in Ubers. If a Smeargle were to use Baton Pass, that would count as its ban break. However, Pokémon that do not naturally learn Baton Pass, such as Koraidon, would not be allowed to use it, since this would require two ban breaks- one to permit Baton Pass, and one to give Koraidon the move.
Sample teams:
Hyper Offense
https://pokepast.es/fed1c72041a54609
Wonder Guard Spam
https://pokepast.es/1c412f3ecb22ac20
Bans:
- Neutralizing Gas
- Ability Shield
- Last Respects
- Revival Blessing
- Innards Out
- Wonder Guard?
- Shell Smash
Predictions:
Unless banned, almost everything will run an Ability Shield, and those who can afford to run Neutralizing Gas will love to do soI’m not even going to let those two be a problem in the first place.- Wonder Guard will define the format. The main reason why I am not banning it outright is because there is a variety of counterplay to it, some of which is viable regardless of whether or not Wonder Guard is there
- Do you like the pink blobs (Chansey/Blissey)? I hope you do, because I can see at least three viable abilities for them (Innards Out, Imposter, Wonder Guard)
- Necrozma-Dusk-Mane will reign supreme. It can viably run Huge Power, it can run Wonder Guard, it can output damage against Wonder Guard without Mold Breaker due to learning Sunsteel Strike and Photon Geyser, it can run Fur Coat (maybe?)… I could go on. My point is that Necrozma-Dusk-Mane is incredibly versatile, and I would be surprised if it doesn’t become a force to be reckoned with.
- What can I do to make this format more distinct from Balanced/Pure Hackmons?
- Do you disagree with me keeping Wonder Guard? It would be great if you provided an explanation as to why why and provided some evidence if possible (I know there is only so much you can do for a format that doesn’t exist, but anything would help). Also, I don’t need references related to Pure Hackmons- that is the format I’m most knowledgeable about.
- Do you have any other ideas for what could be problematic and should be on the watchlist?
- Is allowing just one “ban break” enough, or should there be more? What about two? Is three too many?
- Would it be better to base the format on Anything Goes rather than Ubers?
- Less serious: is “Breaking Banned” a better name for this format?
Q ) Is this National Dex?
A ) Not quite. While you can theoretically use a cut Pokémon, this would count as a ban break. Each move you give it would also count as a ban break, since these cut Pokémon were never programmed to learn any moves. The only exception to this are alternate forms of Pokémon that already exist in-game, such as Groudon-Primal (Groudon is usable, therefore so is Groudon-Primal). Content such as Z-Moves are not present at all in Scarlet/Violet, and therefore are not usable at all.
Q ) Can I run Last Respects on everything?
A ) Yes, if all of your team members can naturally learn it. This is because a ban break is used if you want to use Last Respects at all due to it being banned in Ubers.
Q ) How do bans specific to this format work?
A ) You may break these bans like any other, but it will count as your ban break. This is subject to change.
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I think I did better this time posting here, compared to last time. Sorry for the wall of text- I wanted to do my idea justice, especially since I’ve been working on it for a good part of today. Those sample teams took at least an hour combined, maybe more.
Edits: changed some things (sorry, I don’t remember much about what I did), banned Ability Shield and Neutralizing Gas, removed a question reliant upon Ability Shield not being banned yet, added edits log section, added disclaimer to sample teams section, removed meaning of bold + italics from watchlist, changed meaning of italics in the watchlist, updated teams and removed disclaimer, updated Hyper Offense sample team with a fix for Mewtwo-Mega-Y’s Tera-type along with the items on some Pokémon (Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, Lunala, Rayquaza-Mega) and the moveset of Necrozma-Dusk-Mane.
Hopefully that will be it, but knowing my luck, this will be edited over the course of several weeks.
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Some questions:
- You strongly implied that Last Respects and Baton Pass are on this meta's Restricted List (meaning that you may use a ban break to put the move/etc. on your mon) - what else are on the current Restricted List?
- Can I use my ban break on the EV limit instead? I want my Ting-Lu to be a full-on mixed wall and give it EVs of 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD.
- The restricted list is composed of what is already imposed by the normal rules of Ubers (and whatever I decided to ban from this format specifically, like the Ability Shield). Baton Pass and Last Respects are normally banned in Ubers, so they are “restricted” in Ban Breaking. Thank you for asking this- I wouldn’t have realized my explanation was confusing, otherwise.
- I always planned for EV limits to be included as something you could ban break, but I never decided on how. However, since you have to use your ban break on it, I would say that something like the Ting-Lu EV spread you mentioned should be allowed. Speaking of Ting-Lu, it may be decent, especially considering its Prankster and Photon Geyser immunity and its Last Respects and Moongeist Beam resistance
- Sorry for the edits