Team MPL VII Format Discussion Thread

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mushamu

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Hey everyone, it's that time of the year again for MPL. This time around we would like to be opening up discussion on the tournament's format. Last year's format consisted of:
SS:
SS:
SS:
SM:
SM:
ORAS:
BW:
Bo3 Multigen:

This year, we would like to bring up the following topics for consideration. Feel free to bring up anything else:

- 6 slots helps with the tournament quality - the tiers included would vary.
- current gen bo3 is fun to watch and making anything bo3 makes it more competitive. It was tried in MWP and in MPL III when SM was current gen.

The date for manager signups is June 6th. If you feel strongly about a certain format, now is the time to say so as well as why you feel this way.
 

Ticken

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B101 Leader
I'm planning on hosting MPL with Perish Song so I believe it would be good to be transparent with my stance on this.

Regarding 6 slots
This has been a split among the forum mods for a bit now with it leaning towards going forward with idea. The main arguments to support it include: Lessening burn-out, improving player/game quality, wins being worth more, and a higher bar being set for people to gain entrance into our most prestigious Team Tournament. The main cons include: Exclusion and lesser games. Those are what I have heard up until now and from a glance, there are more pros than cons but I think it is still important to discuss each reason.
  • Pros (Benefits):
    • Lessening Burn-Out
      • One of the main issues I hear regarding Bo3 formats is the amount of prep it takes for the slot. This is fair and, to ease the amount of responsibility on the manager's shoulders to keep an eye on each prep chat, should be a top priority to keep the participants motivated. This reason is primarily directed at managers since not all players will assist in more chats than only theirs but considering most of our legacy managers do not plan on signing up, we'll see if this holds true, it's apparent something should be done to incentivize them to continue if they wish.
    • Improving Player/Game Quality
      • This was not originally my reasoning in support of the change but that doesn't mean it can't hold true. Regardless of if you think the games last season were "scrapping the bucket", it's hard to challenge the idea that it won't improve the quality of matchups if we drop the number of slots.
    • Wins accounting for a Larger Percentage
      • Again, this was not my original idea but it is a common idea to keep in mind when you are adjusting the slot count. There's not much more to say but winning when there are only 6 wins maximum a week is worth more than winning with 8 max wins a week, mathematically speaking.
    • Higher Entrance Bar
      • This is partially my thinking and is pretty subjective I'll admit. For me, if you allow most people in then the prestige goes down and there isn't as much to aim for next year if you were already drafted. When I first started doing MPLs, the magic to me was whether I would be chosen to participate in the tournament and who else would be as well. Again, if everyone who "mains" Monotype or is a decent enough "tour player" is allowed in, then the magic of who is allowed in wares off.
  • Cons (Negatives):
    • Exclusion
      • Yes I have "exclusion" in both pros and cons. Whereas I believe it is important to have a higher bar set for people to aim to achieve, it could be discouraging to newer players if they aren't chosen and do not have the drive to want to be chosen next year.
    • Lesser Games Overall
      • I'll get into this momentarily when I mention the ideal slot spread for me but it goes without saying if you cut the number of slots you'll have less games. This could hurt the overall feel of the tournament because it simply has less to offer than other tours such as MWP or World Cup (I didn't do the math on WC, apologies).
TLDR, overall I see less negatives compared to positives when comparing the affects a 6 slot MPL could have. There still plans on being 8 teams so we would only have 8 less games a week. 4 weekly pairings, multiplied by 2 slots. If there are any reasons I am missing or other opinions I'd love to hear them since this is quite a change we're looking to implement and it has been many, many years since it had been adjusted.

As for the meta slot spread... (with 6 slots in mind)
I am thinking 1 SS, 1 SS Bo3, 1 SM, 1 ORAS, 1 BW, 1 Multigen Bo3. This is likely a hot take so I feel it's necessary to explain further;

I'm sure it comes to no surprise but I do not think we should have half the tournament being a single metagame because it becomes stale to prep and spectate. I understand the importance to favor CG over old gens which is why I think it being the only meta to have its own designated Bo3 is acceptable, albeit only with one more SS. With that said, what about the other 4 slots? Obviously we'd have at least 1 of the other 3 gens so the question is what's the 6th. I did not play in MPL last year, obv, so I didn't have to endure preparing for the Old Gen Bo3 slot each week but with the slots being trimmed down to 6, I truly believe having 2 Bo3 slots is the best call for multiple reasons. (Not in order)
  • Having two Bo3 slots will not only help with improving the quality of our sets but also put a bandage on one of the 6 slot cons, being lesser games played.
  • The most important reason imo is to give other old gen players, specifically the ORAS and BW slots, a teammate who is as invested in prepping and practicing in the gen. Without someone else who needs to play ORAS or BW, no one on the team has an incentive to continually practice and scrutinize over details and I feel it is incredibly important to give people a reason to work closer together.
  • SS is already incredibly saturated across our tournaments. In MWP, SS had a very clear margin of the number of games played when that should be the premier Mono OM tour... With MPL being a mix of all our competitive gens I see no reason why SS should be 2x/3x more played than the others. SS has nearly an entire circuit, aside from Gens, and has the most games played in every official Team Tour so there's no reason to push it even further.
  • Bo3 is generally more competitive because it is less liable to matchup fishing to an extent and would only be exemplified with each win accounting for a larger percentage.

These are my initial thoughts. I look forward to reading more from everyone else's perspective and remember to keep interactions civil in a respectful manor!
 
I'm planning on hosting MPL with Perish Song so I believe it would be good to be transparent with my stance on this.

Regarding 6 slots
This has been a split among the forum mods for a bit now with it leaning towards going forward with idea. The main arguments to support it include: Lessening burn-out, improving player/game quality, wins being worth more, and a higher bar being set for people to gain entrance into our most prestigious Team Tournament. The main cons include: Exclusion and lesser games. Those are what I have heard up until now and from a glance, there are more pros than cons but I think it is still important to discuss each reason.
  • Pros (Benefits):
    • Lessening Burn-Out
      • One of the main issues I hear regarding Bo3 formats is the amount of prep it takes for the slot. This is fair and, to ease the amount of responsibility on the manager's shoulders to keep an eye on each prep chat, should be a top priority to keep the participants motivated. This reason is primarily directed at managers since not all players will assist in more chats than only theirs but considering most of our legacy managers do not plan on signing up, we'll see if this holds true, it's apparent something should be done to incentivize them to continue if they wish.
    • Improving Player/Game Quality
      • This was not originally my reasoning in support of the change but that doesn't mean it can't hold true. Regardless of if you think the games last season were "scrapping the bucket", it's hard to challenge the idea that it won't improve the quality of matchups if we drop the number of slots.
    • Wins accounting for a Larger Percentage
      • Again, this was not my original idea but it is a common idea to keep in mind when you are adjusting the slot count. There's not much more to say but winning when there are only 6 wins maximum a week is worth more than winning with 8 max wins a week, mathematically speaking.
    • Higher Entrance Bar
      • This is partially my thinking and is pretty subjective I'll admit. For me, if you allow most people in then the prestige goes down and there isn't as much to aim for next year if you were already drafted. When I first started doing MPLs, the magic to me was whether I would be chosen to participate in the tournament and who else would be as well. Again, if everyone who "mains" Monotype or is a decent enough "tour player" is allowed in, then the magic of who is allowed in wares off.
  • Cons (Negatives):
    • Exclusion
      • Yes I have "exclusion" in both pros and cons. Whereas I believe it is important to have a higher bar set for people to aim to achieve, it could be discouraging to newer players if they aren't chosen and do not have the drive to want to be chosen next year.
    • Lesser Games Overall
      • I'll get into this momentarily when I mention the ideal slot spread for me but it goes without saying if you cut the number of slots you'll have less games. This could hurt the overall feel of the tournament because it simply has less to offer than other tours such as MWP or World Cup (I didn't do the math on WC, apologies).
TLDR, overall I see less negatives compared to positives when comparing the affects a 6 slot MPL could have. There still plans on being 8 teams so we would only have 8 less games a week. 4 weekly pairings, multiplied by 2 slots. If there are any reasons I am missing or other opinions I'd love to hear them since this is quite a change we're looking to implement and it has been many, many years since it had been adjusted.

As for the meta slot spread... (with 6 slots in mind)
I am thinking 1 SS, 1 SS Bo3, 1 SM, 1 ORAS, 1 BW, 1 Multigen Bo3. This is likely a hot take so I feel it's necessary to explain further;

I'm sure it comes to no surprise but I do not think we should have half the tournament being a single metagame because it becomes stale to prep and spectate. I understand the importance to favor CG over old gens which is why I think it being the only meta to have its own designated Bo3 is acceptable, albeit only with one more SS. With that said, what about the other 4 slots? Obviously we'd have at least 1 of the other 3 gens so the question is what's the 6th. I did not play in MPL last year, obv, so I didn't have to endure preparing for the Old Gen Bo3 slot each week but with the slots being trimmed down to 6, I truly believe having 2 Bo3 slots is the best call for multiple reasons. (Not in order)
  • Having two Bo3 slots will not only help with improving the quality of our sets but also put a bandage on one of the 6 slot cons, being lesser games played.
  • The most important reason imo is to give other old gen players, specifically the ORAS and BW slots, a teammate who is as invested in prepping and practicing in the gen. Without someone else who needs to play ORAS or BW, no one on the team has an incentive to continually practice and scrutinize over details and I feel it is incredibly important to give people a reason to work closer together.
  • SS is already incredibly saturated across our tournaments. In MWP, SS had a very clear margin of the number of games played when that should be the premier Mono OM tour... With MPL being a mix of all our competitive gens I see no reason why SS should be 2x/3x more played than the others. SS has nearly an entire circuit, aside from Gens, and has the most games played in every official Team Tour so there's no reason to push it even further.
  • Bo3 is generally more competitive because it is less liable to matchup fishing to an extent and would only be exemplified with each win accounting for a larger percentage.

These are my initial thoughts. I look forward to reading more from everyone else's perspective and remember to keep interactions civil in a respectful manor!
Let's first keep in mind that the onus is on those changing the status quo, so I'd like to focus on the assumed pros of having 6 slots.

Lessening Burn-Out
First let's consider what the actual proposed tier list from Ticken is:
4 bo1 slots, 1 for each generation
1 bo3 slot for SS
1 bo3 multigen slot (4 gens)
This equates to 11 teams per week.

The format from last year is:
7 bo1 slots
1 bo3 multigen slot (4 gens)
This equates to, amazingly, 11 teams per week.

The number of teams you make per week doesn't increase or decrease with his proposal.

Because you have only 6 slots, the number of people on the team that will be able to help with building and share the responsibility decreases. So, you are building the same number of teams with actually less help than before. As someone who has managed mono team tours multiple times and as the person who was building every non-BW slot in MPL 3, the problem is not the number of slots but the number of teams built along with how much support there is. So, if anything, this is a con of 6 slots rather than a pro.

Improving Player/Game Quality

This isn't actually a fact. Given X < Y < Z, where the number of good players is X, the number of players in 6 slot is Y, and the number of 8 slot is Z, the number of good games cannot be increased by reducing the number of players; similarly, the number of good players cannot be increased by reducing the number of players. X is not dependent on Y or Z. The real reason this appears in this post is as it relates to the next "pro". So, we can combine the two pros together.

Wins accounting for a Larger Percentage
I would actually argue this isn't a pro at all. The idea that fewer slots would improve "quality" in some way is actually just a front for trying to make strong in-battle users have more control over the week. This directly hurts those whose strong point is actually in building teams, as their lesser battling skill is now "worth" more. While at the end of the day, whether you can battle well or not is most important, there is clearly opinion and bias in deciding whether a larger percentage is actually beneficial.

Furthermore, this is a team tour where the goal is to win as a team. It by definition should not be about the individual but instead about the team. The more any one individual controls the week, the less the team itself matters. Thus, that contradicts the very essence of what makes a team tour a team tour.

Higher Entrance Bar
I cannot believe we are seeing the word "prestige" in a MPL thread in 2021. I'm not saying this because I believe MPL isn't prestigious; it (at least when I played) was the most important, most desired tour to win. However, where does that desire come from? Why is MPL so valuable? The community gives it value. A tour that fewer people can interact with, that fewer people know of participants, that fewer Monotype players are a part of (let's be honest about who's getting drafted) is in my eyes less valuable to the Monotype community. This is, yet again, another very subjective "pro", and I would again argue it's a con.

Speaking personally, the "magic" of MPL for me continued from the day I was first drafted in MPL 2 as an exclusively side server player to the last time I participated in MPL 5 as a tier leader. To me, MWP was a successful experiment and Mono WCOP was an attempt to recreate that success. Neither of them are MPL or could replace it. A year without Mono WCOP is much different from a year without MPL. Reducing the number of players in this tour doesn't make it "more prestigious". It makes the tour more exclusionary, not exclusive. That's excluding our own community.

In conclusion, I don't agree that any of these "pros" are positive at all. In fact, I believe they are all outright negative and to the detriment of this tour. Either way this goes, I hope MPL continues to be the tour that brings all of Monotype together.
 
Keep the previous format.

I've read Ticken's post and while I agree with some of the points being addressed, there are several issues.

1- As for improving game quality; that's not entirely true because you cannot guarantee players will always perform well. A reduced amount of players can affect the motivation of the team, for example. There are also a handful amount of players who are consistently improving from previous tournaments, so it is not right to assume that "players that did not do well in previous competitions will ruin the competitiveness for MPL". My overall conclusion is that you can never tell that a reduction in teamslots will really make the competition better in every sense.

2- Ties / tiebreakers feel more meaningful. I'm basing myself off BLT and MWCOP comparisons when I say this. While they are tournaments that are in a different scales and somewhat different format, part of the reason BLT didn't feel as enjoyable was because of the 6 slots (imo). Ties happened more often and they didn't feel meaningful as the WCOP ties, which often had a "comeback feeling" attached to them when one of the teams started the week w/ losses.

3- It is a team tournament. While 6 slots can be fine, excluiding players without having the outright benefit of the making the competition better (explained in 1st paragraph*) is bad as you reduce overall team participation in chats and the community feeling you'd get from team tournaments. It is also expected that team players will get less motivated, and the "private tour" feeling gets bigger and less interesting for outside people to watch. Reducing slots is taking one step towards an individual tournament.

4- Metagame variety. Having 2 SM slots (arguably the most balanced meta according to the community's opinion) and a "best of three" is always fun both for whoever is going to play them and to watch as well. Part of this community doesn't enjoy the current SS tier and that's fine, which's another benefit of having 8 slots. I don't necessarily agree with the burnout part on bo3 because w/ 8 slots you have more team support, both in motivation terms and as well as in teambuilding. You can (or at least should be able to) count on teammates for building and that can get even easier with a wider amount of slots.

Please note those are my point of view as to how I see the competitions, both from the spectator and player perspective. Overall I think previous format is better, but I'll be happy to hear more arguments for the new format to be kept in if they feel appropriate.
 
I don't have a ton to say because Eien's post said most of the stuff I feel, but I'll comment on what I feel strongly about since Manager input is ideal

8 slots is way better, 6 slots is DOGWATER
I think there's a ton of people that get excluded that don't deserve to be and I think 6 slots is ultimately way more boring. I understand the idea behind wanted more "prestige" and higher quality of games but I think there's actually way more cons than pros.
Mostly I'd like to put a lot of emphasis on this part of Eien's post.
Wins accounting for a Larger Percentage
I would actually argue this isn't a pro at all. The idea that fewer slots would improve "quality" in some way is actually just a front for trying to make strong in-battle users have more control over the week. This directly hurts those whose strong point is actually in building teams, as their lesser battling skill is now "worth" more. While at the end of the day, whether you can battle well or not is most important, there is clearly opinion and bias in deciding whether a larger percentage is actually beneficial.

Furthermore, this is a team tour where the goal is to win as a team. It by definition should not be about the individual but instead about the team. The more any one individual controls the week, the less the team itself matters. Thus, that contradicts the very essence of what makes a team tour a team tour.
While we all want each game to matter I want the results of the team to be what matters. There's always gonna be some bum who get's carried to a ring and some guy who goes 9-1 and loses but that's part of being a team. I just don't see how a subjective "better games" is worth excluding our own community and taking away from what makes MPL a Team tour.

On the slots (assuming 8 slots because if it's 6 that sin is on you guys)

These are the formats I like best

SS SS SS SS SM SM ORAS BW

SS SS SS SM SM ORAS BW OLDGENS BO3 (BW-SM)

SS SS SS SS SM ORAS BW OLDGENS BO3 (BW-SM)

SS SS SSBO3 SM SM ORAS BW OLDGENS BO3 (BW-SM)

Everything else is unviable lol.
 
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maki

uri duri naranhi
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Courtesy of Leru

Regarding 6 slots vs 8 slots:

Let's start with the slot discussion: I think that the idea of reducing the slots in the tournament to 6 is absolutely ridiculous. MPL easily is the most prestigious tournament in our entire community. By reducing the amount of slots to 6, you reduce the amount of involved people and subsequently the amount of people with interest in the tournament. You're quite literally kicking your community in the dick by excluding a part of it from your forums most prestigious and fun event. I think Eien already debunked the rest of the bad arguments for 6 slots so I'll leave it at this.

Regarding the format:

I think there are a couple of options we have here. To start, I am gonna list every option i think is on the table in the order of my personal preference.

1. SS / SS / Bo3 SS / SM / SM / ORAS / BW / Threat
2. SS / SS / Bo3 SS / SM / SM / ORAS / ORAS / BW
3. SS / SS / SS / SM / SM / ORAS / BW / Bo3 Multigen
4. SS / SS / Bo3 SS / SM / SM / ORAS / BW / Bo3 Oldgen
5. SS / SS / SS / SS / SM / ORAS / BW / Bo3 Oldgen

To explain this a little:

I think that a bo3 slot that doesn't feature current gen monotype is nonsense, as well as having 2 seperate bo3 slots. Bo3 has historically been the slot, where every team puts their best player. (you can simply compare the average money spent on bo3 in auctions to the average amount of money spent on any other slot if you want proof for this) Having the best players compete in a bo3 that doesn't feature current gen monotype, the currently most played and most developing metagame in the tournament, would be pretty bad for both the meaning of the bo3 slot and the metagame itself. It's fair to assume that a lot of our best players will want to play current gen monotype in this tournament in one way or another, to keep up with the metagame and increase their chances of ending up with their preferred manager in SCL, should monotype make it in. You're also discouraging the best players our tier has to offer from playing current gen monotype by leaving current gen out of bo3, which would be sad because those people would make for the most interesting SS games and techs youll see in the entire tournament. In short, I think that shafting SS from the Bo3 slot means that you will decrease the quality of the slot's player pool and rob us of the probably most interesting SS games we would see all tournament. Also, the bo3 slot is supposed to be prestigious, leaving our premier tier out of it would remove that prestige altogether. As for the option of 2 seperate bo3 slots, if you do that the bo3 slot is no longer unique and the amount of players that would play bo3 is divided into 2 seperate pools. Bo3 has historically been the slot with the most interesting matchups and best games in the entire tournament, by making it 2 bo3 slots you remove the uniqueness and those 2 factors from it.

The issue with multigen bo3 is that you would either shaft bw from it, giving it significantly less representation in comparison to every other tier in the tournament, or have the players prepare for 4 slots while they will never play more than 3, thus preparing a tier they know won't be picked. Speaking out of personal experience, I can say that this is annoying to prepare for and completely unnecessary. Meanwhile, Bo3 SS has been getting a lot of positive feedback from the community in Monotype World Cup and doesnt have any of the issues multigen bo3 or oldgen bo3 have.

I think that bo3 SS is definitely the way to go here. And that brings us to the format i personally like the most; SS / SS / Bo3 SS / SM / SM / ORAS / BW / Threat. I can already see some of you typing in arguments along the line of 'other metagame lol', so I'm gonna start this with the reason why I think threat is not a traditional OM and should not be viewed as such. Threat has been a staple in MPL until MPL4 and is what makes our tier unique. No other official tier has a side-metagame comparable to Monothreat. Monothreat is competitive because both players are playing under the same condition and theres no 'haha rocks paper scissors' jadajdada involved and the last 2 Monotype teamtours are proof of that, considering the arguably best players also ended up with the best records. Monothreat also has seen a lot of attraction lately, is something truly unique to our tier and something we should be proud of and show off in our most prestigious tournament. I think that Threat should not be viewed as a traditional other metagame for this exact reason. Also, this format doesn't have any of the issues the other formats have: Bo3 multigen and bo3 oldgen are flawed, while bo3 SS is not. And Bo3 SS doesn't really make sense in any of the other formats. Another option would be adding a second ORAS slot over Threat would also be an option, but I think that adding Threat instead is better for the sake of competitiveness, variety and uniqueness.

tl;dr: dont do bo3 multigen or bo3 oldgen, make threat great again
 
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roxie

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Monotype Premier League should remain 8 slots.

Eien pretty much covered pretty much everything and I just want to throw my two cents on two points:

I.) Entertainment.

Competitiveness is not the only thing I look forward to when MPL comes up but it's also the actual enjoyment and entertainment that comes with the actual tour. Some laughs I've had from the previous edition are "Tier Leader Decem singing Watermelon Sugar" in the Discord from losing a bet. , the good AND bad predictions, and the overall active and lit discussion thread. Luckypiper does a PR for animes as "cards" for his entire discord and although anime is not something of my interest, on paper, it's really nice bonding with the community. With fewer opportunities and slots I don't think the overall tour will be something to look for similar to the past years. This feels like that one teacher that makes students take a test when there is a whole prep rally going on at the gym, lets have some fun in this tour, I am looking forward to it.

II.) Legacy of MPL & Decreasing the number of slots.

MPL has been 8 slots for the longest and although removing the "bad players" (I did not label anyone like that) as to merit in almost every tier, I really feel like it should not be applied. With the same collective bunch of 6x8 people cycling around, I find it very hard for newcomers to make a name for themselves. I also see it as growth or fuel to improve for members of our community. For example, taide went 3-4 in the previous MPL in ORAS, and over time he literally improved and it shows because he went 5-0 in Monotype World Cup. This of course doesn't apply to everyone and I personally was really hyped seeing all the matchups along with the 3k-4k players. Maybe that's just me. The Monotype Generations tournament also is a-ok tournament to go off of if you are looking to add some beginners but it literally doesn't include BW. I know some teams don't do tryouts and it feels even harder to get in overall (with 6 slots). You can't tell me you are about to pick yoyo1234 (who won a ssnl/gens) over X-user if it comes to that situation. Let the community have a chance :pray:
 
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Courtesy of Leru

Regarding 6 slots vs 8 slots:

Let's start with the slot discussion: I think that the idea of reducing the slots in the tournament to 6 is absolutely ridiculous. MPL easily is the most prestigious tournament in our entire community. By reducing the amount of slots to 6, you reduce the amount of involved people and subsequently the amount of people with interest in the tournament. You're quite literally kicking your community in the dick by excluding a part of it from your forums most prestigious and fun event. I think Eien already debunked the rest of the bad arguments for 6 slots so I'll leave it at this.

Regarding the format:

I think there are a couple of options we have here. To start, I am gonna list every option i think is on the table in the order of my personal preference.

1. SS / SS / Bo3 SS / SM / SM / ORAS / BW / Threat
2. SS / SS / Bo3 SS / SM / SM / ORAS / ORAS / BW
3. SS / SS / SS / SM / SM / ORAS / BW / Bo3 Multigen
4. SS / SS / Bo3 SS / SM / SM / ORAS / BW / Bo3 Oldgen
5. SS / SS / SS / SS / SM / ORAS / BW / Bo3 Oldgen

To explain this a little:

I think that a bo3 slot that doesn't feature current gen monotype is nonsense, as well as having 2 seperate bo3 slots. Bo3 has historically been the slot, where every team puts their best player. (you can simply compare the average money spent on bo3 in auctions to the average amount of money spent on any other slot if you want proof for this) Having the best players compete in a bo3 that doesn't feature current gen monotype, the currently most played and most developing metagame in the tournament, would be pretty bad for both the meaning of the bo3 slot and the metagame itself. It's fair to assume that a lot of our best players will want to play current gen monotype in this tournament in one way or another, to keep up with the metagame and increase their chances of ending up with their preferred manager in SCL, should monotype make it in. You're also discouraging the best players our tier has to offer from playing current gen monotype by leaving current gen out of bo3, which would be sad because those people would make for the most interesting SS games and techs youll see in the entire tournament. In short, I think that shafting SS from the Bo3 slot means that you will decrease the quality of the slot's player pool and rob us of the probably most interesting SS games we would see all tournament. Also, the bo3 slot is supposed to be prestigious, leaving our premier tier out of it would remove that prestige altogether. As for the option of 2 seperate bo3 slots, if you do that the bo3 slot is no longer unique and the amount of players that would play bo3 is divided into 2 seperate pools. Bo3 has historically been the slot with the most interesting matchups and best games in the entire tournament, by making it 2 bo3 slots you remove the uniqueness and those 2 factors from it.

The issue with multigen bo3 is that you would either shaft bw from it, giving it significantly less representation in comparison to every other tier in the tournament, or have the players prepare for 4 slots while they will never play more than 3, thus preparing a tier they know won't be picked. Speaking out of personal experience, I can say that this is annoying to prepare for and completely unnecessary. Meanwhile, Bo3 SS has been getting a lot of positive feedback from the community in Monotype World Cup and doesnt have any of the issues multigen bo3 or oldgen bo3 have.

I think that bo3 SS is definitely the way to go here. And that brings us to the format i personally like the most; SS / SS / Bo3 SS / SM / SM / ORAS / BW / Threat. I can already see some of you typing in arguments along the line of 'other metagame lol', so I'm gonna start this with the reason why I think threat is not a traditional OM and should not be viewed as such. Threat has been a staple in MPL until MPL4 and is what makes our tier unique. No other official tier has a side-metagame comparable to Monothreat. Monothreat is competitive because both players are playing under the same condition and theres no 'haha rocks paper scissors' jadajdada involved and the last 2 Monotype teamtours are proof of that, considering the arguably best players also ended up with the best records. Monothreat also has seen a lot of attraction lately, is something truly unique to our tier and something we should be proud of and show off in our most prestigious tournament. I think that Threat should not be viewed as a traditional other metagame for this exact reason. Also, this format doesn't have any of the issues the other formats have: Bo3 multigen and bo3 oldgen are flawed, while bo3 SS is not. And Bo3 SS doesn't really make sense in any of the other formats. Another option would be adding a second ORAS slot over Threat would also be an option, but I think that adding Threat instead is better for the sake of competitiveness, variety and uniqueness.

tl;dr: dont do bo3 multigen or bo3 oldgen, make threat great again
Who the hell is getting excited about threat here? Foster's home for imaginary friends? Nearly all the mono tours I've participated in, threat has been a pain in the ass to actually prep for and play. No offense to the 'better players' in threat but they only really want it here to farm the pool because yea if you don't buy the 1% of the playerbase that actually likes it, you're forced to slot in someone who really doesn't have an inclination to build and test it. The most important part of threat is building and testing but no one wants to reveal anything they come up with and that means basically the threat player is left in no man's land playing against himself. Talk about some depressed level konzern shit. I don't have any opinions on what mpl should contain but dear god please don't have another pain in the ass threat slot
 
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Just wondering but why do we keep insisting on having a BO3 slot? I think during the last 4 years since we have had it, the glamour of having a one slot to create hype match between 2 elite players has really not shown much fruit and let me explain why:

1. It's too much to create 3 different excellent teams and fully test them during the course of one week, usually less due to scheduling conflicts. This has lead to famous burn outs, lack of creativity and just having teams being re-used week after week in these. When's the last time you saw someone create a completely new innovative team for a mpl BO3? that just never happens due the lack of time. The person who is usually playing in the Bo3, also happens to be the person who creates the majority of teams for the entire team itself so the amount of load this one person can be pretty insufferable.

2. The win in bo3, is still the same value as every other slot. This has lead to teams to sometimes not really even put any effort in to the slot, and just "foddering" a lesser player against the "marque match up of the week", and instead putting effort in to the other slots since prepping 3 teams well for them, can account to 3 wins instead of just one.

3. In the end, BO3 just leads to loss of quality with everything mentioned above. I say this as someone who has 80% winrate in MPL BO3s and have played all of my SM and SS games in these without really even understanding the mechs.

When it comes to 6 vs 8, doesn't really matter to me but I think having it be bigger like 8, allows our tier to grow to more by introducing new players to the tier, allowing more players to make rosters (1TL, Thorn, Zap, Wanka, Leru, Eien) were all 4k subs at one point at the beginning of their careers. While the quality obviously goes down, the benefits it has to our tier overall out weigh the negatives of that.
 

Cell

Birth By Sleep
MPL Champion
I don't care too much about the number of slots, but I want to address some things in the above posts and cover some of the more pressing issues with the current format in my eyes.
1 Retain Max
Allowing for a team to potentially have half their starting lineup decided before the auction is a terrible idea. It also punishes newer managers for previous ones being incompetent. For example, due to the lack of interest in the MPL4 auction, North went for 6.5k. Miniors had the option to retain him for 10k in MPL5, where he proceeded to go 7-2. If Chait didn't manage in MPL5, he would've been a 13k retain (19k this MPL). More examples include Peachy + Feitan and North + Trichotomy in MPL6 and probably Gondra + Star in this MPL.

Adjust Manager Pricing
I got nothing against Perish Song, LuckyPiper, or Zarif, but there isn't a single manager I can think of that would spend 15k on any of them in an open auction. Lower the minimum to something more reasonable.

Improving Player/Game Quality
This isn't actually a fact. Given X < Y < Z, where the number of good players is X, the number of players in 6 slot is Y, and the number of 8 slot is Z, the number of good games cannot be increased by reducing the number of players; similarly, the number of good players cannot be increased by reducing the number of players. X is not dependent on Y or Z. The real reason this appears in this post is as it relates to the next "pro". So, we can combine the two pros together.
Removing less consistent players from starting slots leads to higher average game quality. This argument isn't subjective in the slightest. A decent amount of examples from MPL6 come to mind, but I don't want to detail them here for obvious reasons.
Just wondering but why do we keep insisting on having a BO3 slot? I think during the last 4 years since we have had it, the glamour of having a one slot to create hype match between 2 elite players has really not shown much fruit and let me explain why:

1. It's too much to create 3 different excellent teams and fully test them during the course of one week, usually less due to scheduling conflicts. This has lead to famous burn outs, lack of creativity and just having teams being re-used week after week in these. When's the last time you saw someone create a completely new innovative team for a mpl BO3? that just never happens due the lack of time. The person who is usually playing in the Bo3, also happens to be the person who creates the majority of teams for the entire team itself so the amount of load this one person can be pretty insufferable.

2. The win in bo3, is still the same value as every other slot. This has lead to teams to sometimes not really even put any effort in to the slot, and just "foddering" a lesser player against the "marque match up of the week", and instead putting effort in to the other slots since prepping 3 teams well for them, can account to 3 wins instead of just one.

3. In the end, BO3 just leads to loss of quality with everything mentioned above. I say this as someone who has 80% winrate in MPL BO3s and have played all of my SM and SS games in these without really even understanding the mechs.

When it comes to 6 vs 8, doesn't really matter to me but I think having it be bigger like 8, allows our tier to grow to more by introducing new players to the tier, allowing more players to make rosters (1TL, Thorn, Zap, Wanka, Leru, Eien) were all 4k subs at one point at the beginning of their careers. While the quality obviously goes down, the benefits it has to our tier overall out weigh the negatives of that.
I agree with most of your points. My experience of being in three different team chats in MPL6 (Milotics, Miniors, Treeckos) has me convinced that prep in this slot ends up being generally sloppy and leads to teams getting recycled quite often. This issue has only become worse with SS added to the mix. At the very least, I think it's worth looking into a solution that reduces the maximum number of teams you need to prep for the BO3 slot from 4 to 3 (assuming your opponent doesn't agree to a specific set of tiers).
 
i support the 6 slots format please last mpl was awful stop pretending it wasnt @everyone, i think a lot of factors played a role on this, the meta was relatively very new, the draft/pool was subjectively bad (in contrast with mpl v) i dont think we are losing anything on cutting out 16 starters which would lead to some positive consequences:

-managers would be forced to draft meticulously: yea no shade to any managers but i feel like some of them do a lot of random or "friend" picks as they call them, of course a 6 slot format can't prevent this from happening (i dont think anything can), but it definitely would happen less often

-subs would be more valuable: when your worse starters become your substitutes the overall synergy of the team improves because they would actually be helpful and creating a winning environment is much easier, also this is much better than drafting someone for the sake of rounding out a team which i noticed happens a lot towards the end of the draft

-higher quality on games, but i think this one is obvious and subjective at the same time

Removing less consistent players from starting slots leads to higher average game quality. This argument isn't subjective in the slightest. A decent amount of examples from MPL6 come to mind, but I don't want to detail them here for obvious reasons.
Cell said it better than I could. its not rocket science, its enough to go and watch some of the replays from last year to acknowledge there's something wrong about the current format / quality of games and i know taking this step might look a bit elitist to some of you but in my opinion mpl shouldnt be the tour where "new players make a name for themselves", there are plenty of tours in the year (both individual and team tours) to do that, we have a very active ladder too (i literally made it here because of the ladder), this one is called premier league for a reason, supposed to showcase the best of the best

that said i dont think we should do more than 1 bo3 slot, the question should be SS bo3 or multigen, but i think that should be decided based on signups
 

Wanka

is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
UUPL Champion
I think it's pretty important to look at a somewhat bigger picture as well. Not going to comment too much because I was honestly against 6 slots initially, but after seeing how hard we're struggling to be included into official tours, I don't think it should be THAT much of a surprise to our community as to why this is being considered. Match and overall series quality will improve, Cell makes a fair point regarding this and I don't think it's that difficult of a concept to wrap your head around. That being the case, it's not an awful thing for our most competitive tournament to become even more competitive and hopefully help our case to become included in official tours if we don't make it into SCL. Yeah we end up undercutting our own community because of this but it seems like an ends justifying the means type deal, which is kind of shitty but I could very easily see 6 slots being a long term benefit to monotype because the tournaments purpose is not solely constricted to just making our own community happy anymore. It's been made very clear that we need to please more than just the monotype community if forward progress is to be made. I don't really care for the whole burnout argument I think that's a pretty stupid asspull, but whatever floats ur boat. I don't really think keeping the same format would like completely shut us out though, I just think we'd have an easier time showcasing our best tournament with stricter format and understand why this is a topic of discussion.
 

EviGaro

is a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
RU Leader
I think it's pretty important to look at a somewhat bigger picture as well. Not going to comment too much because I was honestly against 6 slots initially, but after seeing how hard we're struggling to be included into official tours, I don't think it should be THAT much of a surprise to our community as to why this is being considered. Match and overall series quality will improve, Cell makes a fair point regarding this and I don't think it's that difficult of a concept to wrap your head around. That being the case, it's not an awful thing for our most competitive tournament to become even more competitive and hopefully help our case to become included in official tours if we don't make it into SCL. Yeah we end up undercutting our own community because of this but it seems like an ends justifying the means type deal, which is kind of shitty but I could very easily see 6 slots being a long term benefit to monotype because the tournaments purpose is not solely constricted to just making our own community happy anymore. It's been made very clear that we need to please more than just the monotype community if forward progress is to be made. I don't really care for the whole burnout argument I think that's a pretty stupid asspull, but whatever floats ur boat. I don't really think keeping the same format would like completely shut us out though, I just think we'd have an easier time showcasing our best tournament with stricter format and understand why this is a topic of discussion.
Honestly that reasoning scares me because it's going for what I think are the wrong reasons and there's a very high chance you're wrong.

Like Eien alluded to, and it's pretty obvious it's gonna happen, tour players are going to be the main people drafted here. This isn't a surprise, and it happens in every pl, but here's the thing: those tour players are not particularly defending Monotype right now. In fact, a few of them - Like Tony and Star - have quite clearly spoken against it despite playing every mono team tour I can remember, sometimes even in the more random slots like mono ubers or monothreat. So it's clearly not because you're not attracting those players, and it's clearly not because they don't think the tier has no promise and isn't fun to play in, it's because of other factors that this proposal cannot actually address. And honestly, it's not because the good players are looked down upon either. Chait is an obvious example of someone who's been picked in virtually every team tour possible on Smogon, Decem has been in his fair share, same with other mains who are considered for them and I kinda forget now rofl my bad, but if you want to look at officials, people obviously know your new enthusiastic room driver isn't the guy who's gonna hold down the fort for a team when it matters, and I don't think Monotype would have such a big issue in those tours because again top players are respected. Heck, PU has issues in officials because the mains have had iffy performances in it, but it stays because the metagame is more... predictable for tour players.

Matches might improve, but the opposite side is, what if your good influential tour player gets a bad matchup, goes ROFL SORRY TEAM couldn't do anything kek? Well you basically have no shot at the progress you were hoping, and cut down on your community in the process. It might not happen, but even if it doesn't, you have no guarantee the people will change their mind. What is for sure happening though, is that one of the tours that get the most signups for lower pls will be more exclusive and alienated from the community that makes it possible, for a shot at something that is incredibly unlikely and serves the interest of a minority.

And honestly, quality of matches is such a cope out, get people more involved with their prep, demand something of them and yourself as a manager, and be smart with your buys. If you struggle at those things and you want fewer slots then honestly you're a bit at fault. A manager that's not able to find 8 engaged starters won't get smarter having to pick 6, they'll just be bailed out a lot more.
 

Wanka

is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
UUPL Champion
I just think it’s a risk worth taking when we’ve been doing the same shit for 3 years and haven’t gotten to where we want to yet. The idea isn’t to attract a bigger sample size of tour players either. Mpl will inevitably field them and even with only 6 slots, the best mono mains will get drafted and be able to shine. Can shit hit the fan, absolutely. At the end of the day the idea that improved match quality in turn giving us more leverage to be put in officials is speculation, but good lord grow some nuts and take a risk because I genuinely think if the new formatting works, we can at the very least gain a bit more leverage than we currently have and become less likely to be denied. Even if it’s not much, it’s better than where we’re at.

Also we’ve been asking managers to be smart with their buys for the past 3 mpls and the same shit happens every time. At the very least each team should end up with a strong squad and I don’t really care if they actually draft smarter or get bailed out, they’ll end up with a better team anyways. But there always ends up being an ounce of parody with the same managers making playoffs and winning. Off the top of my head the past two mpls have legit been playoffs filled with krows + whatever team chait and zap manages + whatever team I manage and then a filler squad. Nobody supporting this wants to pat themselves on the back and I speak for myself when I say this but I’m pretty fucking tired of watching managers shit the sheets during the draft mpl after mpl after mpl. If we wanted to pat ourselves on the back then keeping the same format and letting half the manager pairs throw during the draft would be a better route anyways. Again, shit can definitely hit the fan but at the end of the day if it doesn’t work we can always revert back. I just think it’s pretty foolish to think that mpl doesn’t need to be improved in some way and if demanding people to be smarter hasn’t worked, then try something else.
 
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I just think it’s a risk worth taking when we’ve been doing the same shit for 3 years and haven’t gotten to where we want to yet. The idea isn’t to attract a bigger sample size of tour players either. Mpl will inevitably field them and even with only 6 slots, the best mono mains will get drafted and be able to shine. Can shit hit the fan, absolutely. At the end of the day the idea that improved match quality in turn giving us more leverage to be put in officials is speculation, but good lord grow some nuts and take a risk because I genuinely think if the new formatting works, we can at the very least gain a bit more leverage than we currently have and become less likely to be denied. Even if it’s not much, it’s better than where we’re at.

Also we’ve been asking managers to be smart with their buys for the past 3 mpls and the same shit happens every time. At the very least each team should end up with a strong squad and I don’t really care if they actually draft smarter or get bailed out, they’ll end up with a better team anyways. But there always ends up being a ounce of parody with the same managers making playoffs and winning. Off the top of my head the past two mpls have legit been playoffs filled with krows + whatever team chait and zap manages + whatever team I manage and then a filler squad. Nobody supporting this wants to pat themselves on the back and I speak for myself when I say this but I’m pretty fucking tired of watching managers shit the sheets during the draft mpl after mpl after mpl. If we wanted to pat ourselves on the back then keeping the same format and letting half the manager pairs throw during the draft would be a better route anyways. Again, shit can definitely hit the fan but at the end of the day if it doesn’t work we can always revert back. I just think it’s pretty foolish to think that mpl doesn’t need to be improved in some way and if demanding people to be smarter hasn’t worked, then try something else.
Idk why u are under the assumption that having 6 slots would somehow increase manager quality?
 
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Wanka

is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
UUPL Champion
Idk why are under the assumption that having 6 slots would somehow increase manager quality?
im not saying it will. I just think most of our managers have shown that they consistently misinterpret who’s good and who isn’t. With less slots, I don’t think it’s that poor of an assumption that the best mono mains and tour players are more likely to be evenly distributed and “steals” are less likely to happen. Again though, why sit there and hope they get smarter when a new formatting might forcibly make the tour more competitive.

E: I want to make it very clear btw that my posts reflect my own thoughts and ideas about the topic btw. It was more of an attempt to get people to keep an open mind because I feel it was wrote off very quickly.
 
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This is really long and I assume many aren't going to read it, but if you choose to reply to any part of it, please try to read it all. I tried to reply to posts in thread as they were made as well so a lot of it is pretty repetitive. It probably comes across as entitled and seemingly a rant idk bear with..

Going to start with something Eien said on discord:

I guess the question comes down to what’s MPL for:
1. The games
2. The community

Once upon a time, this tour probably was solely for the community. There weren't other team tours, it was purely vibes and a good time. People cheated and fucked around and had fun. It brought the community together and one of the main things that gave it its value is that it was the only team tour. The 'biggest stage.' This isn't the case anymore. MPL isn't the sole biggest stage anymore. There is virtually no difference between the players in MWP, WCOP, and MPL. Thus, there is no real difference in the quality of games. The only thing that keeps the prestige of this tour ahead of the others is the head start it got. The tiers are generally more respected as well but at the end of they day if you're not playing quality games, it doesn't matter for much from a competitive standpoint. I brought 6 slots up because I want to make sure it continues to be the biggest stage competitively in the future. We have other tours now for the community. We have so many of them!! We've grown massively and we continue to do so, but removing 2 slots will not impact this growth. I would even argue it would force fringe players to have to prove themselves more, resulting in an improvement in our other tournaments if they are taken more seriously, because let's face it. No one 'established' truly cares about a seasonals tour or whatever. Prove you belong in MPL before you get to the biggest stage!!! MPL isn't the place for new players to make a name for themselves. It should be a place for new MPL players to prove they can hang with the top dogs. Every other tournament we have is where you should want to make a name for yourself.

If you don't agree with me on this there's likely no point reading the rest...but I'll try to address some stuff brought up here.

When it comes to 6 vs 8, doesn't really matter to me but I think having it be bigger like 8, allows our tier to grow to more by introducing new players to the tier, allowing more players to make rosters (1TL, Thorn, Zap, Wanka, Leru, Eien) were all 4k subs at one point at the beginning of their careers. While the quality obviously goes down, the benefits it has to our tier overall out weigh the negatives of that.
All of these players came up with no other team tournaments for them to showcase themselves. This isn't the case anymore. If you are good enough, you will be drafted. You just should have to prove it elsewhere first.

Someone else I was talking to about a pick from last year said '(name) was put into the pool for their first time' and that it's understandable they didn't do well because it was their first time.
Why the hell is our most 'prestigious' tour the time for people who are trying to prove they are fit to be playing at the highest level?? There are so so so many other tournaments for them to prove that they are deserving to participate in our best tournament!!!! Why is this such a commonly accepted scenario. What the hell is prestigious about this!? MPL shouldn't be our most prestigious, elite tournament by default. We shouldn't be accepting 'it's better than mwp and wcop, what's the need for changing it' or anything along those lines. Comparing us to MWP and WCOP will get us absolutely nowhere. We should be working towards making MPL as premier as possible in its quality. Not just its name. Sticking to the same format for the sake of being 'more inclusive' and it's a 'fun event for the community' is flat out disrespectful to the quality players in the pools.

MPL has been 8 slots for the longest and although removing the "bad players" (I did not label anyone like that) as to merit in almost every tier, I really feel like it should not be applied. With the same collective bunch of 6x8 people cycling around, I find it very hard for newcomers to make a name for themselves. I also see it as growth or fuel to improve for members of our community. For example, taide went 3-4 in the previous MPL in ORAS, and over time he literally improved and it shows because he went 5-0 in Monotype World Cup. This of course doesn't apply to everyone and I personally was really hyped seeing all the matchups along with the 3k-4k players. Maybe that's just me..The Monotype Generations tournament also is a-ok tournament to go off of if you are looking to add some beginners but it literally doesn't include BW.
I don't truly understand what this is trying to say but what I did get from it is Taide was mediocre in the previous MPL and has improved a lot after it. This is exactly what my point I made above is about. Why is our MOST PRESTIGIOUS TOUR the tour where players prove and improve themselves to get to a fit enough level. If we truly want MPL to be about the best, and be better than every other tour, there needs to be change. Let taide prove himself in wcop first and then show up to MPL. Doing well in other tours should prove you can hang with the best players. Doing well in MPL should prove that you are among the best. Right now all the tours consist of the same competition and if we want to keep parading MPL as the best, well, deep down most know the quality isn't good enough so this facade of MPL being significantly greater due to any sort quality isn't going to hold on for very long.

Whenever you look at peak competition, the players are already proven. Why can't this be the case here? There are two other team tours with 8 slots of at least 8 teams. There are several monotype individual tournaments for players to prove themselves. There are 5 alone in the circuit. MPL isn't a breeding ground. It should be the final step. New players are great. We need them to grow our community. There are just other places for it. Managers shouldn't have to hand hold players in what is supposed to be a tour that shows off the best vs the best. It's even worse when the handholding still cannot bring simple competence. Eventually, managers can only be as good as the players they can pick from.


And honestly, quality of matches is such a cope out, get people more involved with their prep, demand something of them and yourself as a manager, and be smart with your buys. If you struggle at those things and you want fewer slots then honestly you're a bit at fault. A manager that's not able to find 8 engaged starters won't get smarter having to pick 6, they'll just be bailed out a lot more.
I think it's fair to say I'm the main proponent of 8 teams with 6 slots each. I say this as someone who hasn't missed playoffs as a manager before. I bring it up to show that I have been successful with managing and my track record is solid. I think I do a good job managing, I ask for quite a lot from my players, and I think I give back an equal amount at the very least.

This will come off entitled and exclusionary I'm sure, it's likely the whole thread does. There are absolutely not enough quality players to fill out 8x8. Drafting in the last few rounds is an absolute mindfuck. You are just begging for other managers to undervalue that one player you have your eye on because they are possible marginally better than the rest of the remaining pool. It's pathetic to be picking from the 'best of the bad remaining players' as a manager, and definitely is not indicative of MPL being a great tour where you have to actually be quality to play in it. Every single prospective manager has complained about players not being up to par. They don't know who to draft in the later rounds of drafts because there is such poor quality left in the pool. How does this indicate prestige? "Yeah let me take 5 minutes trying to decide which below average player to pickup and hope they don't shit up chat." Why the hell are we even in this position as managers. Everyone who has managed has been there. Because there's simply not enough quality in the pool. Yes teams have good players and worse players in them. It's part of being a team. This is true everywhere. It doesn't mean that we should be picking up the G leaguers and putting them in the NBA because we feel bad they haven't been included. As a manager I shouldn’t be terrified of having to sub one of my guys in because I was stuck at the end of the draft trying to choose the best of some bad players. There are several teams that had some atrocious subs. There are teams with very very average starters. Foddering proves this. Many managers have said this themselves. The point of substitutes aren't that they're unplayable if things go south. They have be at an acceptable level. The solution? Cut the starter slots, turn the worst starters into more reliable substitutes. Nothing else fixes this. It also makes for a greater likelihood that your entire team is contributing, when everyone knows what they are doing. Dead teammates kill team tours. One argument I saw was that it won't be as alive if a couple people are cut from each team. You say managers should improve their drafts. I think managers should be more responsible of keeping their team chats alive. We all know that every team has dead slots that will barely look at the chat unless they need to play if that. You are lucky as a manager if there is only one player per team not contributing at all. Draft fewer players, draft active players, draft better players on average, and you will have an active chat.

I get where you are coming from but it's impossible to deny quality of matches will be improved if you cut slots. I view this to be an exclusive tour for the best players. It is the way it is paraded by our community. It currently is not that at all. If you can't find 8 starters, how can you find even remotely acceptable substitutes? If we could find 8 starters capable of quality performance, foddering wouldn't exist at all. However it's incredibly common and widely accepted. How is this showcasing our best tour? Subsequently, the same players get drafted for mwp and drafted into wcop teams. How is this better? I want this to be more than just a sub forum PL, because eventually, unlike RUPL which has snake/scl or spl in the past, there is nothing above MPL for us (for now at least). This is the biggest stage for a monotype player. We don't treat it as such.

Regarding what wanka said - I didn't propose this change with any bearing on what it would mean for our SCL hopes. I don't disagree it's a possible side affect but I agree with mostly everything Evi said in response. There's no guarantee of it changing anything, and I don't think we shouldn't be looking at change for that. I don't think there's any doubt we can put up 10 starters and some support slots for SCL. That's not what's keeping us out. I don't think there is anything we can do to MPL to improve our SCL/trophy tour chances. I don't think that should be the objective. What I do know is that we can't put up 64 quality starters, and until there is something higher to aim for, MPL should be more exclusive and really be the best of the best instead of 'another tour with different tiers that has more prestige solely because it's been around longer'. We are well past the need for MPL being the sole tournament to let people prove themselves. The names Azelea listed all had one team tournament. We now have three. There are more individuals. There are more side tournaments. You can prove yourself there.The onus is not on the 'most elite tournament' we have to compromise its competitiveness for the sake of making some people feel better so they can lounge around on the bench and contribute nothing or go 1-4 and have everyone complain players are playing like shit or games are shit, when nothing is done about it.

I didn't really think about this from the manager POV of making it harder to draft worse, but I think it's absolutely true. Wanka's last post says it pretty well.
In an ideal world managers shouldn't be playing and we would have old, experienced managers managing our best tour. Obviously can't happen. Our managers are generally relatively new and inexperienced. Regardless of that, at the end of the day, managers can only draft from the available selection and it's not very good. Making managing as idiot proof as possible cannot hurt the competitiveness of our tour. It can only help it.

On another note,

Managers playing makes it too easy to abuse the prices. Unfortunately, the managers are generally players who would get drafted pretty high and we don't have deep manager pools. However, we already don't have enough quality in the pool, cutting managers out would be disastrous. A proposal I was toying with was that in a 6 slot mpl, only one manager is allowed to play, and the base price should be pretty high. If the minimum is 8 players, theoretically each player is worth 12.5% of your funds if you get the minimum. I think if we had a 100k auction, ever manager should be at least 20k or somewhere along that. I'm sure people won't like not playing but like cell mentioned, players would never go for some of those prices in a draft, and there is no proper objective way to do it other than set prices. High set prices avoids good players from getting themselves for cheap and keeps the competition high. The number obviously will end up arbitrary but I think the logic is sound. If you want to play but don't want to pay a high price, sign up as a player.


Ideal format:
SS 1
SS 2
SM
ORAS
BW
Bo3 Multigen

/SS 3/Bo3 SS for last?

3 subs minimum (2 is fine too, probably better) One manager can play at most.

I don't agree with Ticken's proposed format. Eien points out the same number of games need to be prepped so this doesn't help anything related to burnout with a change in number of slots.
There should be 1 bo3 slot at most, maybe even none, regardless of 6/8 slots. Ideally multi-gen I think, but there are issues with this as well imo. SS 3 is likely the most 'fair' final tier maybe? Idk I'm not sold on anything regarding that slot but I think Multigen is fantastic in an ideal world.


Like Azelea said, I don't think bo3 is exactly providing for the quality games from the best players as was expected when it was first implemented. However (maybe I am wrong) I think there is generally huge support for multigen bo3 as a spectator, and I agree, I love playing and watching it. It also ideally promotes teamwork as everyone across tiers can work together to provide for a certain slot. With this logic prep should never be an issue if your team is working together as is intended. Also, it is only common that old gens will see reused teams, or very similar teams with very minute changes based on the opponent. This is true for every tier and every old gen. No tier is truly solved, but they are more solved the older they are so I don't think reusing good teams with small changes necessarily indicates bad prep or lack of it or lack of time for it.

I have two issues with it however. The first is the best players are shafted into bo3 even though it is worth the same as any other slot because the idea is 'amazing games to watch.' This is theoretically okay but foddering negates that in its entirety. The other is I don't believe there are enough players that know all the tiers enough to really play them all at a high level. I heard one solution of cutting BW but I don't believe this solves anything. No one realistically can play all 3 gens at a high level and not the 4th.

Current Gen Bo3 would negate the second issue but the first still exists. Foddering will still exist because the best players will still end up in bo3 under the false pretense of 'lets get the best games to watch' and that naturally you want to give your best players the best chance to win, and bo3 does that more often than bo1 in this game, obviously.
With 6 starting slots instead of 8, the amount of fodder will be much lower, and if there is ever a fodder game, the chances of a quality series still being played is much higher. Reducing the bad players in the tour will make for more even matchups throughout a week, providing better games. It's not a difficult concept, it's not subjective at all. If you think the quality is fine how it is that is one thing. It's undeniable however, that cutting players will provide for higher quality. No matter the format or game or tier or competition.

The fact that foddering exists proves to me that there isn't enough quality to fill out the pools. We want this to be our best tour. This is essentially 'our SPL'. What the fuck are we doing foddering away wins?? How can people tell me a tour is so prestigious and showcases the best when there are fodder games weekly? This is the best we have to offer? Lol. Why would you be effectively throwing away games if the quality of all the players you have drafted is at a high level. Forget the subs, foddering tells me teams can't fill out 8 slots being competitive. If people in the starting lineup are considered fodder, what does that make your subs? Players you obviously never want playing if you are looking for a win. How this is acceptable in what we see as peak monotype competition is beyond me. How we continue to call this tour in its current format prestigious is also beyond me.
Quality over the long term makes anything prestigious. As Eien said, the community gives it value. Why? Because it has consistently been seen to be of a high quality. This might've been the case in the past because it was the only tournament we had consistently. This isn't the case anymore. The same 'worse' players make all 3 tournaments. There's no difference in the pools. If we truly want MPL to be the best, there HAS to be some sort of exclusiveness. I don't even think 8x6 will solve everything, but it's a step in the right direction. After all, we are trying to play competitive pokemon. Watching the same players play mediocre games over and over as a teammate or spectator gives it no value that is different from our other tournaments.


This isn't actually a fact. Given X < Y < Z, where the number of good players is X, the number of players in 6 slot is Y, and the number of 8 slot is Z, the number of good games cannot be increased by reducing the number of players; similarly, the number of good players cannot be increased by reducing the number of players. X is not dependent on Y or Z. The real reason this appears in this post is as it relates to the next "pro". So, we can combine the two pros together.
This is just misleading and totally misses the point. This doesn't factor in the 'bad' players playing good players ending in a 'bad' game. The more 'bad' players there are, the greater percentage of games will be 'bad.' There is no disputing this. If you think the games are already at a high level thats fine, they are however only going to be higher if you cut the last slots out. This really can't be disputed.

If X = Bad player and Y = good player and Y + Y = good game and any combination of X = bad game, then there are going to be a fuckton of bad games which can be pushed in the right direction by removing these players completely. A good player curb stomping a bad one in 12 turns is not a game anyone is considering quality.
Let's say we have kept 8 slots which means 32 games a week. This means 64 players play a week. Now let's say out of these 64, there are 16 bad players. If you cut 16 of the 64 out (as is proposed), you theoretically only have good games. If none of these 16 players are playing each other in any given week, that means they account for 16 games in the week. This is half of the games that theoretically end up 'bad.' Of course you will have 'bad players' play 'bad' ones as well so 16 is unlikely but theoretically it is possible. Get rid of these players, get rid of the bad games. Obviously that is all theoretical and there will still be bad games, but you can absolutely increase the number of good games by reducing the number of players.
We want good players to be playing good players in every slot. How is it prestigious otherwise? How is it the best we have to showcase if this isn't the case?
Regardless of all that,
The idea here with 6 slots is that you are not trying to increase the good number of players (lol idk why that even came up) or hit x number of good games, you are trying to decrease the percentage of bad games. It's exceedingly simple and irrefutable that if you decrease slots and the number of players drafted, the game quality will be higher. Don't like 6 slots? Think the quality is fine how it is? That's totally fine but cutting out worse players will make for a higher percentage of higher quality games. Quality is subjective but saying games will get better with less slots is absolutely not. Trying to deny this is absolutely wrong lol.

I would actually argue this isn't a pro at all. The idea that fewer slots would improve "quality" in some way is actually just a front for trying to make strong in-battle users have more control over the week. This directly hurts those whose strong point is actually in building teams, as their lesser battling skill is now "worth" more.
Fewer slots = less bad players get drafted = quality improved. It's not a front for anything, it's undeniable. Players can be bought onto a team to build. Yes that is a huge part of pokemon, but why do you want players who can build well but not play well to play in our most 'prestigious' tournament. Surely the playing part should be about, well, playing... Instead of rewarding good builders...? I don't understand how their battling skill is worth more all of a sudden. You still need to build good teams to win, those players might even be worth more if they can build two good teams a week, considering those teams make up for a greater percentage of your games.

For example; Jolly Togekiss. Frankly, I do not think he should be starting in a tournament that is designed to showcase the 'best of the best' and be the most 'prestigious' our tier has to offer. However, everyone he has played for has raved about his building ability and worth ethic as a teammate, which is obviously extremely valuable. He will still be drafted, his role will be clear, to build and test teams, and potentially sub if absolutely required. Building teams is an important component of pokemon and monotype, several quality players can build by themselves, others cannot. Having 6 slots doesn't magically hurt his strong point of building. His skills are still a necessity to succeed. Nor is his battling skill suddenly worth more than it was before. It is probably worth less considering there is a less chance he plays. If your strength is building, its value is not diminished for lack of slots. It is probably greater as each slot you build for has a greater impact. Knowing your role is a big part of being on teams. Being rewarded for building good teams with a playing spot isn't prestigious. It just tells me there aren't enough good players to fill out slots.

A tour that fewer people can interact with, that fewer people know of participants, that fewer Monotype players are a part of (let's be honest about who's getting drafted) is in my eyes less valuable to the Monotype community.
I think a very important thing people fail to realize is that while our community is huge, the 'inner tournaments circle' is pretty small. I think you can divide everyone that generally gets drafted into 4 groups. The clearcut tour players that don't play in any other monotype tours other than team tournaments (star/evi/gondra for example), The tour players who also participate in our smaller tours and circuit tours but you don't consider part of the mono tournament jerk (xiri/rabbit/tj), the more or less established monotype mains who I shouldn't have to list, and the few new kids you get which I don't think belong but that's beside the point.

Tour players aren't really the main ones being drafted here. They are generally the best yes, but we really don't overload on tours players in our tournaments. We simply don't have a large number signup. I don't think it's fair to label players that participate in smaller tours (team and individuals) and flirt with our community as castaway tour players though. Maybe their closest friends aren't really part of the community and we don't interact with them as often but they still have shown some sort of appreciation for the tier outside of the team tours, which alone makes them a greater part of the community than your average tour players. Anyway, The first group is what I wanted to talk about the most because that is what I see referenced here. The players that have no affiliation to the community that signup for kicks. Yes there are a few but there really aren't many. Other than the classic sabella roided up tour goons squad, every team has 1-2 players at max you'd view as this. This overall makes up about 15% of the tournament, which really isn't a large figure at all, especially in comparison to other tiers. You assume 90% of these get drafted in a smaller format. They would then account for approximately 20%. My point is mono players are getting drafted, and they will continue to get drafted. A lot of them will. Yes a few players will get left out. The few that will get left out are these new guys. I said it previously, and I'll say it again. I don't see anything that suggests high quality when you have people trying to make a name for themselves in our greatest tournament. There are tons of other places to do that, and then show up at MPL and prove you are amongst the best. But first you gotta prove you can hang with the best.

Looking at last MPL, there are names you can EASILY trim from teams with very minimal loss. The majority aren't part of the community, they played next to no games, and i know for a fact a few literally didnt speak past week 1. A couple marginal monotype players cut isn't the end of the world. Hell it makes the competition better, and there are dozens of other places you can prove yourself worthy of playing with the best. I realize that is all subjective, but to improve the quality you need to cut slots, and I firmly believe that quality should be valued over inclusion for this one tour. We parade MPL around as the best but there is no exclusivity that suggests it is. The same players in all 3 team tournaments over and over. It's not exclusive. The prestige currently only comes from the fact that mpl has been around longest. Not cause the games are any better. Imo this should change.


I've heard some arguments along the lines of 'this could cause more ties and thats so bad!!' It's stupid. If ties were a bad thing we would get rid of them. But they're not. There's no harm in ties. Regardless if you do the math there's on average, accounting for each player being equal, only a 4 % increase in the ties in the long run. Not exactly a game changer.

I have no idea why threat was brought up. I have even less idea why a second oras slot was brought up. Rabbits post made me laugh. Thank you Rabbit.

Retains: Make retains increasing values by 3 every years. If you get drafted for 12k 1 year, you should be able to be retained for 15 the next, and then 21, and then 30. 3 + 6 + 9. 3k increases yearly is stupid. SPL changed theirs as well.

I'm never writing anything remotely long on smogon again.

If you made it here thanks for reading. I can only assume if you read everything you agree this an issue of quality. I've repeated myself pretty often throughout (Sorry!) because at the end I think the biggest issues we see can be cut out with this change. I obviously feel pretty strongly about this so if there are replies I'm absolutely willing to respond and/or talk privately. Inclusion is great. It's required, but if everything we have as a competitive community is about inclusion, we are completely ignoring the 'competitive' aspect of pokemon this is meant to contain.
 
i support the 6 slots format please last mpl was awful stop pretending it wasnt @everyone, i think a lot of factors played a role on this, the meta was relatively very new, the draft/pool was subjectively bad (in contrast with mpl v) i dont think we are losing anything on cutting out 16 starters which would lead to some positive consequences:

-managers would be forced to draft meticulously: yea no shade to any managers but i feel like some of them do a lot of random or "friend" picks as they call them, of course a 6 slot format can't prevent this from happening (i dont think anything can), but it definitely would happen less often

-subs would be more valuable: when your worse starters become your substitutes the overall synergy of the team improves because they would actually be helpful and creating a winning environment is much easier, also this is much better than drafting someone for the sake of rounding out a team which i noticed happens a lot towards the end of the draft

-higher quality on games, but i think this one is obvious and subjective at the same time



Cell said it better than I could. its not rocket science, its enough to go and watch some of the replays from last year to acknowledge there's something wrong about the current format / quality of games and i know taking this step might look a bit elitist to some of you but in my opinion mpl shouldnt be the tour where "new players make a name for themselves", there are plenty of tours in the year (both individual and team tours) to do that, we have a very active ladder too (i literally made it here because of the ladder), this one is called premier league for a reason, supposed to showcase the best of the best

that said i dont think we should do more than 1 bo3 slot, the question should be SS bo3 or multigen, but i think that should be decided based on signups
For newer players there’s a bunch of tours for them to test their skills and get their names out there such as BLT, the many seasonal tours, Gens. The ones with almost no entry or a much smaller pool of applicants with the only constraints being time (aka missing application or not quallifyinng in the case of BLT)

This is supposed to be more or less the most competitive of the team tours in Monotype at least it was supposed to be when I first began watching

I feel like when you don’t make these tours It should drive newer players to get better at the game and get considered... that’s yknow.. how this competition thing works

Anyways onto the main crux of this argument and and I would say doing Bo3 is fine but I would agree with perhaps doing it Sm-Bw to show a bigger range of tiers and not having just one player locked because this can open up people who play SM-BW on a team to contribute a lot more than just “let me just do my own thing and only really ask for help if it comes to teambuilding”

8 slots is perfectly fine as it is. This tour should always be the “big team tour” for monotype aka its biggest and most competitive in terms of standard monotyping. I could also argue nixing Bo3 for Natdex since I’ve seen in MWP that’s becoming it’s fleshed out tier
 
I don't really have an opinion on 8vs6 slots but I definitely think that bo3 with the mono gens tiers(bo3 multigen) is the best choice for the last slot and I'll just touch a bit on the points of people who think otherwise.

re: bo3 slots lead to burnout because it's too much to build and test 3 teams for one slot especially if the person in that slot is already building most of the teams
I feel like if this is a problem that your team is struggling with it comes down to bad team assembly more than a problem with the slot tbh. If you have sufficient support in each gen you really shouldn't be relying on one player for most of your teams even if they're your star player. There are players able to build for every slot without burnout and there are players that can maybe only build for 1 or 2 slots without burnout and I feel like this is something you should have in consideration when you're building a team you actually plan on winning with.

re: removing bw from bo3 cuts representation even more/bo3 oldgens
As far as bo3 old gens I feel like it's a complete meme lol.. Current gen mono is literally our main tier so having a bo3 slot without it honestly makes no sense to me. Especially because it's going to have most of the best players in that slot.

As far as cutting bw cuts representation is concerned, im honestly confused as to how someone could say that cutting bw from bo3 is removing representation and also suggest a replacement that doesn't include bw. Like there's gonna be 1 bw slot regardless in that case so it's not for or against bo3 multigen.

I definitely think cutting bw is the way to go because I don't really see a purpose in having teams put a full week of prep into a squad and they don't even know if it'll even be used until after the series starts... just seems like a waste of time. Not to mention it means we don't have to change tiers every other year since the mono gens tiers always update. If two years from now another gen drops not cutting bw means we need an entire new format, but dropping it now means we can just drop oras and it works. I feel like the more we change the formats the less seriously the tour is taken and the less of an identity it has.

re: bo3 ss
I'm gonna be honest bo3 ss vs bo3 multigen is more split and I think both of them could work for this last slot, but I would prefer bo3 multigen for a couple weaker reasons. Those reasons mainly being tradition and enjoyability. As far as tradition, I honestly believe that bo3 multigen has been in enough mpls to be a staple of mpl. Even if you'd disagree I feel like bo3 multigen being in the past couple mpls means that it should be on the bo3 ss bros to use reasons I haven't covered here as to why they should be slotted over bo3 multigen and not the other way around. Regarding enjoyability, (although I can't 100% prove this) id be willing to bet ALL of my money that if we took a poll on players/spectators and asked them whether they liked playing/watching bo3 ss or bo3 multigen more that multigen would get the majority. This is extremely subjective of course but I don't think most would disagree with me that bo3 multigen is just much more enjoyable overall.
 
ladder doesnt matter < seasonals dont matter < mpl with noobs doesnt matter ...

stop beating around the bush about burnout and some other goofy excuses and just vote on whether or not youre gonna make this some "agreed upon strong friends only tour" or leave it alone

a real mans format:

ss
sm
oras
bw
 
I was initially infuriated by the 6-slot proposition as it seemed like some elitist cutoff to create a super league but after reading some of the well constructed arguments for it, I think it definitely has merits to be considered and the fact that we are even bringing this status quo in question for the community to discuss, is imo great for the health of the community and it's ambition so props to the council and hosts for that. I had some comments on a few topics.

I've experienced first hand in another mono team tour in the past year that foddering in bo3 slot, is actually somewhat viable budget and prep wise. Obviously it's bad for the competitive integrity of the tour but in an 8-slot tour where you probably already have 2-3 SS Slots to build for, time is of the essence for some teams that do not have a dedicated builder, competent players who can make drafts or good helpers. When I say it's viable, I think it's doable and that you might get away with it in an 8-slot format. Do not get it twisted though, this is a telltale sign of poor management to compensate for a unbalanced team/draft. This ties in to my next point.


As pointed out by a few people, it is often the same 2/3 managers' teams and in a 4 team playoff is terrible for the competitiveness of the tour, no matter what format we play. I have read a few people preaching that managers should draft better, work harder to get their whole team active and involved. I think we can all agree that managers should always strive to build the best squads possible but boiling our issues down to "we have to do better" ain't gonna cut it. Not only can it make the regular season underwhelming but on draft night as well, it can lead to unnecessary friction between players and managers(No draft lists/will cancer if drafted). A change has to happen and in this scenario, we can only hope new manager pairings/prices can reduce this gulf between teams because nothing feels worse than being drafted and feeling like you are working at a disadvantage from the get-go. Some teams will always have the advantage with manager pairings who are skilled players (abusing the manager pricing system) and competent builders while other teams will have supportive managers who help the team in other ways. That difference can mean night and day in any tour especially in our most prestigious tour MPL. I am not saying that manager pairings should be assigned or doctored in some way however, I am extremely eager to see how/if this situation can be balanced.

All this talk about entertainment had me puzzled. This can be so subjective and dependent on the meta at the time of the tour. My recollection of BW MPL games is foggy however, I always hate how it's usually the same 5-6 types being wheeled out week in week out. SS games can often be the dullest watch ever as in many instances there have been 4-5 relevant types that get spammed all tour. Forgive my vague examples but what I am trying to say is, you can't guarantee the best games entertainment-wise (such is the nature of Monotype, unfortunately). Sure we can get the "best 48 players" to play week in week out, and hope for quality games but I wouldn't expect drastic changes to the 64 starter format. Sometimes it's the "guy who shouldn't have been drafted" who goes on a tear, that breaths fun in an otherwise sweaty tour.


I am extremely split on this matter as I understand the exclusivity argument, but also the not cutting off new blood argument. I would maybe propose the possibility of saturation? Every MPL will have a certain number of tour players that get drafted, then the regular mono mains, and lastly from my understanding would be the "proven in other tours" rising stars. How many of those could we fit in? Our community is massive and people are bound to be left out. However, I most definitely understand the picking the best out of the bad bunch argument. You only need to look at last year where Perish caught so much flak for not using extra money to get prospective benchwarmers. All the SCL talk is pointless imo, I think we rather do the best we can at things within our control.

I think no matter the format agreed upon, Monotype is in a good place and we should keep looking forward. I hope we put on the best tournament possible irrespective of the format and continue this discussion after the tour to build on our newfound knowledge.
 

maroon

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I want to say that initially, I was entirely against the idea of decreasing the number of MPL slots to six. However, after reading Chait's post, I think it is worth an attempt and support the idea. Also, these might be repeating previous points made, but I want to post where I stand on them anyway. Also, this post is going to be brief.

I want to preface this by clarifying that I do not think that what we do with MPL will somehow affect our placement in SCL or anything related. Compared to back then, Monotype players now have tons of different avenues to show off their skills, whether it is the other potential team tournaments or the official circuit. This would certainly increase the quality of overall team drafts, cutting out the few possible iffy substitutes on each team. While cutting slots is certainly a new approach that can certainly go south, it definitely has a big upside, enough to try out this year at least.

If the tour ends up becoming six slots, I think the only viable format would be SS / SS / SS Bo3 / USM / ORAS / BW; this still leaves most of the tournament in the current generation of Monotype, showcasing the best of the old generations. This might be a hot take, but Multigen bo3 seems like a bad idea with six slots. I believe that the current generation of Monotype should always be the most prominent tier in MPL and never worth minimizing. As Chaitanya also said, its very rare to play all four generations of Monotype at the highest level. SS is not worth removing because it is the current-gen, and neither is BW, which makes the slot very hard to prepare for and will inevitably see an insane amount of reusing the same teams. But if Multigen Bo3 is picked, I think it should work similarly to Monotype Generations, where SS is played first. The loser then selects the next generation from the two most current remaining gens (USM or ORAS), then the deciding gen is whichever has not been played yet. Since SS is the staple generation of Monotype through the rest of the year, it should be the same in MPL; I think I reflected that point across what I think about the Bo3 slots. It worked well in MWP, and I look forward to seeing the innovations that this would bring to the tier.
 
Honestly I think the best way to solve the pool issue and the managerial issue is just to cut down the number of teams to 6 and maintain the 8 slots. That way you the pool quality gets better, the managerial quality gets better and the team chat activity won't be affected. This way we also don't have to cut any of the metagames previously had.

We could do 5 weeks + 2 weeks of poffs, 10 weeks + 1 week of poffs or just 10 weeks with the best team automatically becoming the champion in true premier league fashion.
 

maroon

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Honestly I think the best way to solve the pool issue and the managerial issue is just to cut down the number of teams to 6 and maintain the 8 slots. That way you the pool quality gets better, the managerial quality gets better and the team chat activity won't be affected. This way we also don't have to cut any of the metagames previously had.

We could do 5 weeks + 2 weeks of poffs, 10 weeks + 1 week of poffs or just 10 weeks with the best team automatically becoming the champion in true premier league fashion.
as we saw in mwcop, 5 weeks for the regular season is very short; on the other hand, 9 weeks + 2 for playoffs + 3 potential tiebreaks is gross (way too long) and should never happen. if you wanted to cut anything, player slots per team still seem like the best idea imo.
 
Honestly I think the best way to solve the pool issue and the managerial issue is just to cut down the number of teams to 6 and maintain the 8 slots. That way you the pool quality gets better, the managerial quality gets better and the team chat activity won't be affected. This way we also don't have to cut any of the metagames previously had.

We could do 5 weeks + 2 weeks of poffs, 10 weeks + 1 week of poffs or just 10 weeks with the best team automatically becoming the champion in true premier league fashion.
5 weeks was def too short as maroon said

I know I liked it when we talked about it and ideally the last suggestion is really cool but after thinking about it for like 10 seconds, there are realistically too many issues with double round robin and top spot becoming winner. Teams that start like 0-3 or 0-1-3 or whatever will not give a single fuck the rest of the way, ruining the competition for everyone else. There is also no punishment for this because we can't enforce relegation of any sort, so there ends up being nothing to play for after a bad start which just makes it unviable. If you have a bad start in a regular tour with 8 teams you can still scrap to the 4th seed and will be in the hunt pretty often till the final week providing for max competition.

ladder doesnt matter < seasonals dont matter < mpl with noobs doesnt matter ...

stop beating around the bush about burnout and some other goofy excuses and just vote on whether or not youre gonna make this some "agreed upon strong friends only tour" or leave it alone

a real mans format:

ss
sm
oras
bw
Idk if the format you suggested is sarcastic or what but if you read my post I'm absolutely not beating around the bush. I want this to actually contain the best players we have. Not a feel good tour with the same players as every single other tour we have.
 
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