Announcement np: BDSP OU Suspect Process, Round 2 - Afterglow

[tigers jaw]

Great post, Eve, I echo everything you said. I might add that Manaphy's blend of power and bulk also has the consequence that the faster, stronger, frailer Pokemon that can serve to check it mostly fail to OHKO, and are OHKOd in return after switching in on Tail Glow. This means that, essentially, if you're not willing to use one of the very passive, slower defensive checks to Manaphy (which all can lose to viable techs, btw), you need to dedicate further resources to revenge killing after the trade - this constrains building further, and is in my eyes very clearly unbalanced. Furthermore, Manaphy's ability to force trades in these common situations with such consistency, whilst demanding minimal planning or execution (free turn click Tail Glow, nice) doesn't strike me as a great dynamic, either, lol.

It's insanely strong, constrains building to an unreasonable degree, is super easy to use, and minimises interesting and creative play/building (issues shared between all of the current broken special attackers).

Will vote ban if I can be bothered playing a Gengar-infested meta

 

[Crazy88]

User LiquidMonotony/ParoshFarms (formerly ranked 1st and 2nd place on BDSP OU ladder)

To put it simply, I would like to see Manaphy banned. Though admittedly there are worse/more broken threats in OU (Gengar/Kazam are far more threatening and less counterable)

Latios I have no issues with until it gets trick/psyshock. I agree with a lot of comments on this thread.

 

[Levant Mir Celestia]

i think it should stay, its strong but every ou pokemon is otherwise it wouldn't be ou, maybe its above average but it still has its counters

Let me ask this, then: How many of those counters actually work in practice? About the only things that can actually take hits from Manaphy have to be extremely specially defensive. Or Shedinja, but Shedinja has its fair share of issues. Also, it ain't like Manaphy is predictable (Tail Glow is only one set), and even if it was, I will note that Dracovish was predictable, as was Gen 7 Naganadel. Care to guess what we did with those? Regardless, if having counters was all it took for a mon to not be broken, then Ubers wouldn't exist, let alone Anything Goes.

 

[Best Nami]

I vote to not ban Manaphy.

I rarely encounter manaphy on the ladder and do not believe it is an unhealthy presence.

I don't think enough players are using Manaphy in an oppressive enough way where it dominates the tier at this stage. I believe Manaphy's speed tier of 100 is mediocre versus offensive pokemon especially if choice specs or choice banded.

I believe Manaphy could be particularly strong if against stall and people ran something like Rain dance, Rest Manaphy. Outside of that I don't really see Manaphy as a bad influence on the meta.

 

[TyCarter]

During my attempts at getting reqs, like Nami mentioned, I did not see Manaphy often, particularly once I got to the higher ends of the ladder where it was basically all Hyper Offense or Stall with balance basically nowhere to be seen given Manaphy basically stomps balance. I do not think this is a coincidence given it's presence in the tier even if the usage stats do not back it up.

While Manaphy's speed tier isn't like the greatest and is merely just "alright" at base 100, it's 100 bulk across the board is something that shouldn't really be overlooked as it can survive a specs Latios draco meteor from near full health and being able to ohko it back and taking a turn to setup does make it manageable. It's def a mon where u want at least 2 maybe even 3 options to be able to take it out and manaphy needs to be accounted for in builder. While it's certainly not a bigger problem than Latios or debatebly Gengar.

(Personally don't think Zam is a problem given how abundantly strong priority is in this tier even if his ability to make you second guess whether or not he is sashed or LO is no joke) I would be ok with banning Manaphy as long as Latios gets revisited down the line.

Edit: I will note the rare times I did see it, I can def see how it threatens balance especially if one is running a salac set that capitalizes on it's rather decent bulk in conjunction with tail glow that threatens near sweeps.

Side note: also ditto at adem point about doing the suspects in bunches tbh

 

[adem]

hi, im gonna make this post to address some of the more recent arguments on either side of the spectrum, as well as why I personally think Manaphy should stay, for now, or KoKoLoko-style tiering action to take place (quick banning multiple elements / mons and then further along the line suspect test them 1 by 1, in a similar fashion to what NatDex did earlier last year.) instead of just a singular ban.

No one can deny Manaphy is a really solid breaker with a lot of great defensive capabilities in tandem with its top-tier breaking abilities, although personally I dont think banning Manaphy by itself is really going to change much in the grand scheme of things, at the very least without removal of the multiple polarizing elements at the same time. No, removing just Manaphy isn't suddenly going to make Balance and BO the most dominant playstyle, or even change much. Same reason removing just Latios isn't going to change much. I would say BO currently is only really underrepresented in the samples and in general, although I think it is the best, if not second best playstyle currently. I would attribute this (less representation of good BOs) partially due to a more constrained view by a lot of people on building in this tier rather than just 1 singular Pokemon invalidating an entire playstyle, and personally I feel that's a very close minded view on the tier as of right now, and depending on how you would classify BO (as honestly Pokemon archetype terms arent really a set in stone thing lol), it isn't really that hard to build and perform really well provided you aren't overestimating our breakers, although a majority of them will have Gliscor and Scizor, over time with more proper experimentation with the team style much more creative options can be explored, such as the likes of Tyranitar, Donphan, and Empoleon.

TLDR if the reason you want to ban Manaphy is because of how it and multiple other Pokemon create a very polarized metagame, banning just 1 of the culprits, instead of multiple of them at the same time, isnt the way to solve it as its clear to everyone that solely Manaphy isnt the sole culprit and removing it wont really change much of anything in how the tier currently is, as much as you would like to believe it would.

Honestly, I really like how the metagame is currently, Offense is at its peak, BO is rising up to be more promiment (although as I mentioned it needs more experimentation), Stall, while still definitely a top 3 playstyle I feel is a bit overrated in how effective it is currently, and I feel is slowly leaning more into the matchup-fishy state it is in all healthy tiers that it exists in, and that the tier in its current state is kind to all playstyles except balance, and as i mentioned earlier will be still terrible unless you remove like 5 other Pokemon. However, I do agree that the tier isn't in a completely healthy state, and while I do think it is very competitive and fun and definitely not bad, I can still see a side where banning these Pokemon is the right way to go about things, although I heavily disagree in the execution in the tiering decisions about this. Suspecting each one of them one by one is frankly just a waste of time and banning one wont affect the health of the tier without removing all of them, and is just keeping the meta in this "unhealthy" state for longer.

TLDR Stop suspect testing things 1 by 1 and wasting time, just do a Kokoloko Ban if you really think this tier is in that much of a bad state.

About the mon itself now, disregarding the actual health of the tier, I really do think it is extremely overrated and not as "broken" as people think it is, and definitely not as constraining build-wise as stuff like Latios. Contrary to what people might think, no, banning Manaphy wont mean that CM Blissey would stop being used (no, CM Latios and Gengar still exist) And using the argument that stall struggles vs Manaphy is honestly just invalid, considering Manaphy has historically denied Stall, and to an extent Fat completely, and makes them much more MU-fishy than they need be, but on the contrary, Stall this generation is actually doing really well, and there have been quite a lot of innovations and they definitely aren't linear.

I'd like to view it in a different way: Are Manaphy's viable counterplays, namely checks and counters likely still viable w/o Manaphy in tier?
Counters:
CM : won't be seen (×)
Unaware : clef is too good (√)
: won't be seen (×)
: can still be used to counter stuff like Latios and Azumarill, but I believe stall has better choices (×)

Checks (Only counting OU usage mons):
: Somehow relevant still but loses one of its biggest niche (×)
: Still going to be relevant (√)
Scarf : Still going to be relevant (√)

So definitely a lot builds are present in the tier mostly because of Manaphy, but on the other side theres also quite a few builds that will still be very releavant without Manaphy. I don't personally hold an opinion on Manaphy right now but I hope it can inspire you :)

Furthermore, expanding on the Blissey point a lot of Pokemon that people think will suddenly die off (just like what people said Scizor would if Tios got banned which is just untrue), these Pokemon's niche do not bank on solely Manaphy in the slgihtest, with the closest being Shedinja in which it will still be a niche but effective Stall pick to deal with a lot of breakers in the tier such as Garchomp in DragMag, Latios, Azumarill, and the rising in popularity TrickPlot Toms. Empoleons biggest niche is far from being a Manaphy check, its being a Steel, and being a Manaphy check alongside it is just a + of using certain Empoleon sets, as it requires Roar and SpDef investment to do it properly, and even then its a shaky one at best. Its really only Mantine that will realistically fall off completely by the ban, some sets / mons might see less use (CM Bliss and Shedinja), but they will definitely still be a thing, especially as the tier continues to develop more.

A lot of the points made discussing Manaphys impact on both sides of teams, namely Savouras , Jokler , and JustInCaseD to an extent, so I dont think I really need to ramble on about that and you can refer back to their points.

I still think getting Manaphy away so I don't have to think about it in the builder when I want to build any kind of offense or stall would be fantastic, as unhealthy of a Pokémon this is (I still see basically every post just discussing what it does against offense but nothing else other than "pls no ban its not broken", which shouldnt be a point at all), but the tier has more problems than just Manaphy, on that I fully agree
(and yeah, Scizor at 50% is a symptom of a bad metagame right now)

gm oomfie. While I do symphatise with you wanting 1 less Pokemon to think about in the breaker, and I can see it as unhealthy (although not broken nor uncompetitive, nor unhealthy by itself), nothing is really going to change IMO, not builder-wise, nor metagame wise, as honestly I find myself automatically dealing with Manaphy most of the time without the thought of it popping into my mind, as I have to make precautions for multiple other Mons that facilitate a similiar response, ie Gatr, Mie, offensive / Scarf WashTom. Also I disagree with both Scizor being at 50% a sign of an unhealthy Metagame, and I even think honestly a lot of that is just an overreaction to the Psychics and people still experimenting with BOs, but regardless of that Scizor is an extremely splashable mon due to it providing a lot of utility to the team, being a Steel type in this Metagame is extremely useful, and providing one that isnt extremely passive (like rachi), while still mantaining momentum and being much harder to take advantage off outside of Zoner, and Heatran for non offensive variants, also boost up its usage.

Here are two successful teams of mine that have been used in the sustest for others (as unfortunately I do not have enough time atm), and in other side tours and have performed well. Have fun with the SusTest! More teams in the samples ^^

https://pokepast.es/291553f230a79a6f
https://pokepast.es/5e5c9f361281a15b

tldr @ council leave the tier as it is or kokoloko this shit

 

[Eve]

hi, im gonna make this post to address some of the more recent arguments on either side of the spectrum, as well as why I personally think Manaphy should stay, for now, or KoKoLoko-style tiering action to take place (quick banning multiple elements / mons and then further along the line suspect test them 1 by 1, in a similar fashion to what NatDex did earlier last year.) instead of just a singular ban.

No one can deny Manaphy is a really solid breaker with a lot of great defensive capabilities in tandem with its top-tier breaking abilities, although personally I dont think banning Manaphy by itself is really going to change much in the grand scheme of things, at the very least without removal of the multiple polarizing elements at the same time. No, removing just Manaphy isn't suddenly going to make Balance and BO the most dominant playstyle, or even change much. Same reason removing just Latios isn't going to change much. I would say BO currently is only really underrepresented in the samples and in general, although I think it is the best, if not second best playstyle currently. I would attribute this (less representation of good BOs) partially due to a more constrained view by a lot of people on building in this tier rather than just 1 singular Pokemon invalidating an entire playstyle, and personally I feel that's a very close minded view on the tier as of right now, and depending on how you would classify BO (as honestly Pokemon archetype terms arent really a set in stone thing lol), it isn't really that hard to build and perform really well provided you aren't overestimating our breakers, although a majority of them will have Gliscor and Scizor, over time with more proper experimentation with the team style much more creative options can be explored, such as the likes of Tyranitar, Donphan, and Empoleon.

TLDR if the reason you want to ban Manaphy is because of how it and multiple other Pokemon create a very polarized metagame, banning just 1 of the culprits, instead of multiple of them at the same time, isnt the way to solve it as its clear to everyone that solely Manaphy isnt the sole culprit and removing it wont really change much of anything in how the tier currently is, as much as you would like to believe it would.

Honestly, I really like how the metagame is currently, Offense is at its peak, BO is rising up to be more promiment (although as I mentioned it needs more experimentation), Stall, while still definitely a top 3 playstyle I feel is a bit overrated in how effective it is currently, and I feel is slowly leaning more into the matchup-fishy state it is in all healthy tiers that it exists in, and that the tier in its current state is kind to all playstyles except balance, and as i mentioned earlier will be still terrible unless you remove like 5 other Pokemon. However, I do agree that the tier isn't in a completely healthy state, and while I do think it is very competitive and fun and definitely not bad, I can still see a side where banning these Pokemon is the right way to go about things, although I heavily disagree in the execution in the tiering decisions about this. Suspecting each one of them one by one is frankly just a waste of time and banning one wont affect the health of the tier without removing all of them, and is just keeping the meta in this "unhealthy" state for longer.

TLDR Stop suspect testing things 1 by 1 and wasting time, just do a Kokoloko Ban if you really think this tier is in that much of a bad state.

About the mon itself now, disregarding the actual health of the tier, I really do think it is extremely overrated and not as "broken" as people think it is, and definitely not as constraining build-wise as stuff like Latios. Contrary to what people might think, no, banning Manaphy wont mean that CM Blissey would stop being used (no, CM Latios and Gengar still exist) And using the argument that stall struggles vs Manaphy is honestly just invalid, considering Manaphy has historically denied Stall, and to an extent Fat completely, and makes them much more MU-fishy than they need be, but on the contrary, Stall this generation is actually doing really well, and there have been quite a lot of innovations and they definitely aren't linear.



Furthermore, expanding on the Blissey point a lot of Pokemon that people think will suddenly die off (just like what people said Scizor would if Tios got banned which is just untrue), these Pokemon's niche do not bank on solely Manaphy in the slgihtest, with the closest being Shedinja in which it will still be a niche but effective Stall pick to deal with a lot of breakers in the tier such as Garchomp in DragMag, Latios, Azumarill, and the rising in popularity TrickPlot Toms. Empoleons biggest niche is far from being a Manaphy check, its being a Steel, and being a Manaphy check alongside it is just a + of using certain Empoleon sets, as it requires Roar and SpDef investment to do it properly, and even then its a shaky one at best. Its really only Mantine that will realistically fall off completely by the ban, some sets / mons might see less use (CM Bliss and Shedinja), but they will definitely still be a thing, especially as the tier continues to develop more.

A lot of the points made discussing Manaphys impact on both sides of teams, namely Savouras , Jokler , and JustInCaseD to an extent, so I dont think I really need to ramble on about that and you can refer back to their points.



gm oomfie. While I do symphatise with you wanting 1 less Pokemon to think about in the breaker, and I can see it as unhealthy (although not broken nor uncompetitive, nor unhealthy by itself), nothing is really going to change IMO, not builder-wise, nor metagame wise, as honestly I find myself automatically dealing with Manaphy most of the time without the thought of it popping into my mind, as I have to make precautions for multiple other Mons that facilitate a similiar response, ie Gatr, Mie, offensive / Scarf WashTom. Also I disagree with both Scizor being at 50% a sign of an unhealthy Metagame, and I even think honestly a lot of that is just an overreaction to the Psychics and people still experimenting with BOs, but regardless of that Scizor is an extremely splashable mon due to it providing a lot of utility to the team, being a Steel type in this Metagame is extremely useful, and providing one that isnt extremely passive (like rachi), while still mantaining momentum and being much harder to take advantage off outside of Zoner, and Heatran for non offensive variants, also boost up its usage.

Here are two successful teams of mine that have been used in the sustest for others (as unfortunately I do not have enough time atm), and in other side tours and have performed well. Have fun with the SusTest! More teams in the samples ^^

https://pokepast.es/291553f230a79a6f
https://pokepast.es/5e5c9f361281a15b

tldr @ council leave the tier as it is or kokoloko this shit

Quick heads-up that we can't Kokoloko quickban a Pokemon that survives a suspect test unless there are substantial changes to the metagame since the test.

I would be ok with banning Manaphy as long as Latios gets revisited down the line.

For some transparency: given the community survey response and opinions of most top players, a Latios re-suspect down the line is on our to-do list. Gengar and Alakazam are also both being looked at.

 

[Savouras]

Quick heads-up that we can't Kokoloko quickban a Pokemon that survives a suspect test unless there are substantial changes to the metagame since the test.


For some transparency: given the community survey response and opinions of most top players, a Latios re-suspect down the line is on our to-do list.

Hopefully we get to retest rain and Blaziken first that were quickbanned early on in the meta. Esp Blaziken was unexpected for many

Eve edit to avoid having to make more one-liners: yes we did say we'd re-test Blaziken, Rain is nothing close to a priority right now though- the last thing we need is more polarizing offense

Would make alot more sense to ban something that was quickbanned day 1 of the introduction of the Generation. Logically and statistically if you take it the last 3 generations Rain has been very promising the first days of a new generations as it improves drastically your Speed and Damage output consistently.
Also bans and unbans to ubers happen because they need to be tested if they would be too much in the OU tier, not because we dont wanna see more offense or more stall or whatever style of team each member prefers not to see.
Just my thoughts, should definitely be a higher priority than a pokemon we did a full suspect test and people rejected it.

 

[adem]

Quick heads-up that we can't Kokoloko quickban a Pokemon that survives a suspect test unless there are substantial changes to the metagame since the test.

Unfortunate, although I was more meaning towards how these mons should have been handled in general, before any suspect tests, but ty for your reply^^

Hopefully we get to retest rain and Blaziken first that were quickbanned early on in the meta. Esp Blaziken was unexpected for many

I agree with this as well, Blaze I feel wasn't that far over the edge that is deserved an outright quick ban, and even Drizzle was at best toeing the line.

 

[Lalaya]

While I do symphatise with you wanting 1 less Pokemon to think about in the breaker, and I can see it as unhealthy (although not broken nor uncompetitive, nor unhealthy by itself), nothing is really going to change IMO, not builder-wise, nor metagame wise, as honestly I find myself automatically dealing with Manaphy most of the time without the thought of it popping into my mind, as I have to make precautions for multiple other Mons that facilitate a similiar response, ie Gatr, Mie, offensive / Scarf WashTom. Also I disagree with both Scizor being at 50% a sign of an unhealthy Metagame, and I even think honestly a lot of that is just an overreaction to the Psychics and people still experimenting with BOs, but regardless of that Scizor is an extremely splashable mon due to it providing a lot of utility to the team, being a Steel type in this Metagame is extremely useful, and providing one that isnt extremely passive (like rachi), while still mantaining momentum and being much harder to take advantage off outside of Zoner, and Heatran for non offensive variants, also boost up its usage.

never said it would change dramatically, at least not until the other demons get banned alongside manaphy, but just not having to worry about manaphy in the builder when I wanna field like, non-CM blisseys or... god forbid... demon slowbro.... is a net positive in my book
also I wholeheartedly think Scizor being at 50% is the consequence of being the only one able to check said demons and not sucking in any other department, being able to phaze blows with Roost, having a strong priority and a pivot move helped by being a slowass mon (for this meta standard)
Nobody else does it, and I agree here, as I also agree being at 50% doesn't have to do with Latios *alone*, but it gained 10% in usage in a month following the shift from Blaziken offense to Gengar/Zam teams, soooooooooooooooooo...

I totally agree that for now, thanks to Latios' survival most likely (again, not just Latios, I know) Manaphy is pretty much automatically checked, but that also does mean getting rid of said demons will turn Manaphy great again, and I'd argue that broken checking unhealthy isn't really a decent point to make xd
This would be the first step into healing a meta where you can either just outoffense your opponent, or run stall, and honestly it's hurting the development of said tier; if you don't wanna start from Manaphy, fine, but someone has to go

 

[Eeveeto]

Will try to be short but relevant.

A. During 32 ladder games, I found 3 Manaphys, so its true that people are not using the thing (which I took advantage of, my team was pretty weak to Manaphy). However, usage =/= viability. Kyurem was OU, but wasn,t exactly one of the most used Mons in SS. Shadow Tag Gothitelle had very low usage at the time it was banned, cause despite not fitting on many teams, Shadow Tag + Trick combination was deemed broken anyway.

B. The Metagame can definetely adapt to Manaphy and is already doing so. Here are the ways I know of dealing with it:
1. Massive offensive pressure (aka HO teams). Manaphy will generally get one kill at most vs these type of teams.
2. CM Blissey. Viable even outside of Manaphy, this is what Stall teams generally use to deal with it. Can be beaten with a crit or a freeze, but generally wins.
3. Shedinja. The other thing Stall teams use. Hates hazards, but generally the teams that use Shedinja will use 2 or even 3 removers. Only Shadow Ball Manaphy can beat it, and the move serves no other purpose.
4. Mantine. Walls Manaphy though can,t do anything back.
5. Unaware Clef. Hates hazards, but generally will win too. Loses to Skill Swap Manaphy, though that move is very niche.
6. Fast electrics. There are not many of them, but they exist. Specs Raikou, Scarf Rotom-C, Scarf Rotom-W with Thunder (Tbolt doesn,t OHKO), Scarf Magnezone with Thunder are good ways of dealing with Manaphy. Even if they don,t OHKO, they can switch at least once and heavily damage Manaphy, even scouting for Wacan Berry with Volt Switch (though that will generally mean a kill).
7. Abomasnow. Takes everything from Manaphy, heals a lot of damage back with Giga Drain. Hail is a niche, but viable style.
8. Yache Berry Psych-Up Latios or Latias. These can take advantage of Manaphy and countersweep. Only work once per battle though.
9. Yache Berry Exeggutor. Unlike the above, this can be used more than once, since it has Harvest. With small HP investment, it always lives a +3 Ice Beam after rocks and Energy Ball KOs Manaphy after Rocks (Leaf Storm can be used to not need Rocks, but it can miss). The Mon also works as a good check of Breloom and Rotom-W. Can be eved to outspeed Adamant Azu, still live +3 IB from Manaphy (and KO with Energy Ball after rocks) and therefore act as insurance against Belly Drum Azu, so this is not a Mon only used for Manaphy.
10. Niche fast Grass types. I already mentioned Scarf Rotom-C, but Scarf Breloom and Sceptile also work, as well as Chlorophyll Mons like Venusaur or Swift Swim Ludicolo.
11. Destiny Bond Gengar. Not an actual counter, since it dies, but works as a trade.

C. Manaphy has flaws. It needs one turn of set-up to be dangerous. Other breakers like Crawdaunt, Gengar or Latios can sometimes just click moves brainlessly, Manaphy doesn,t have this luxury very often.

D. Despite all of the above, I still believe Manaphy is unhealthy for this Tier. The situation is different from Latios one. Among the big check lists only CM Blissey and Scarf Rotom-W actually fit in many teams, outside of it, Manaphy restricts building way too much, with either HO or full Stall being the only styles that consistently beat it. Even then, Manaphy can put some work with a burn or hazards pressure (though this one any offensive Mon can do). Every style in-between those has to use Suboptimal Mons or sets to deal with it.

E. The bulk of Manaphy is amazing for an offensive Mon. Despite needing a turn of set-up, it actually gets those turns easily. And that is when its not even invested, cause bulk invested spreads do exist and will certainly pop up at some point. Even teams that do have revenge killers (such as fast electric) are forced to win weird 50/50 scenarios, such as when Manaphy manages to get into Gliscor or Scizor (first is threatened with Ice Beam, second one with Scald burn). At the same time, the speed is enough to outspeed like 70% of the meta and +3 Manaphy is able to destroy almost everything slower and some faster Mons.

F. Due to the big restrictions it puts on the building, I will be voting Ban on Manaphy. As I already said, the Meta can adapt to it, but the Meta can also adapt to Kyogre, Groudon or whatever Uber is tested in OU. Its unhealthy enough for me to not being a desirable Mon in the Tier.

G. Not really related, but I still think Latios staying was the right thing, nothing has changed for me to prove otherwise. On the other hand, I do think that Gengar should at least be looked up, it has a wide movepool and big variety of sets, lacking reliable checks for all of them.

H. Have a nice Eeveening!

 

[LittleSpookz]

I've just finished reading the whole thread and while I don't have too much to add I have found 2 fairly important things I haven't seen addressed in any of the the post above.

1. Manaphy Doesn't Beat Balance

As the guy whos gained a reputation for thinking Gliscor is a problem that requires tiering action and "coping" about balance being good I believe I'm probably the most qualified person to point this out but Manaphy not only doesn't beat balance but assuming both players are playing at a fairly decent level of skill Manaphy should never get a single KO against balance and the reason for that is fairly simple. Unaware Clefable is as much a staple on balance as Blissey is on stall and while famed balance crusher Manaphy is one of the reasons for that it is far from the only one and actually quite low down on the "reasons to run Unaware Clefable" list with terrors like Dragon Dance Feraligatr and Dragonite as well as Swords Dance Garchomp and Scizor being drastically more threatening to balance in the current metagame. Now I've seen a lot of people say that you can just stack hazards to allow Manaphy to break Clefable but this seems to be an "in theory" assertion rather than one based on experience or play testing as we only have 2 viable Spike setters in Skarmory and Roserade both of which hardly fit onto many teams outside of their respective playstyles making them fairly rare and even if they do show up Clefable still always switches in and heals off the damage even with 1 layer of Spikes and Stealth Rock up and is still roll dependent to break Clefable with 2 layers of Spikes and all this is assuming that Spikes are staying on the field in the first place which is fairly tough given the excellence of Defog Gliscor and Scizor as well as Starmie Rapid Spinning in a tier where the only viable ghost is Gengar. So in short somewhat ironically famed balance crusher Manaphy is dead weight against balance and its struggles against other playstyles have been heavily documented in the many posts before this one.

2. Manaphy Is Best On And Against Hyper Offense

As absurd as it sounds that Manaphy's best matchup could be one where it almost always get one KO and then dies through playtesting Manaphy to get reqs during the suspect test and doing some more high ladder testing afterwards I've found that in practice Manaphy can remain most effective against team where setting up is not required but becomes lackluster and outclassed to outright deadweight against team where it is required to boost and the only playstyle Manaphy can threaten pre-boost is Hyper Offense. While it is possible to create scenarios where Manaphy can do something against non-Hyper Offense teams in almost all of these Starmie or Feraligatr (and sometimes even Crawdaunt or Azumarill) simply do the same thing but better with its only genuine advantage being its ability to OHKO Rotom-Wash after boosting and while this is a legitimate advantage to have its just not worth being worse against every non-Rotom matchup unless your team is just that Rotom weak in which case pack a Roserade or some other Rotom-Wash answer that isn't weak to Rotom-Wash. So its outclassed as a water against everything that isn't Hyper Offense (if you want detailed explanations on how it fairs against other styles just read some of the post above and keep in mind it shouldn't ever get a KO against balance) but against these Hyper Offense teams is where it shines. Although still having heavy competition from Starmie for this roll Starmie tendency to be just too frail to survive a game saving hit and just barely not strong enough to close out a game defining KO on the heavily trade base nature of HO vs HO matchups is finally where Manaphy isn't strictly outclassed by other waters (although make no mistake Starmie is still excellent on HO it just comes up short sometimes which can make it a very risk-reward choice for HO teams). Its natural bulk allowing it to take practically any one neutral hit as well as Tail Glow ensuring it has the power it needs to trade with the opposing HO assuming it doesn't already (which it quite often does) will often make or break the game in the HO vs HO mirror however thats really all Manaphy has going for it over the other waters. Its one reliable niche where it is not strictly outclassed is as a matchup fish for Hyper Offense against Hyper Offense (and again Starmie is also good at this its just inconsistent).


The only reason I could justify wanting to ban Manaphy is its unhealthy effect on the builder (I would like to use balance without an unaware clef thanks) but honestly I can't see any effect it produces that isn't replicated to a far greater extent by other Pokémon like Gengar or Alakazam and while I could see a potential Manaphy re-suspect quite a bit down the line I can't see any reason to remove it from the current metagame as it stands and while I'm still undecided for these reasons I'm leaning towards Do Not Ban.

 

[Xilefi]

I've just finished reading the whole thread and while I don't have too much to add I have found 2 fairly important things I haven't seen addressed in any of the the post above.

1. Manaphy Doesn't Beat Balance

As the guy whos gained a reputation for thinking Gliscor is a problem that requires tiering action and "coping" about balance being good I believe I'm probably the most qualified person to point this out but Manaphy not only doesn't beat balance but assuming both players are playing at a fairly decent level of skill Manaphy should never get a single KO against balance and the reason for that is fairly simple. Unaware Clefable is as much a staple on balance as Blissey is on stall and while famed balance crusher Manaphy is one of the reasons for that it is far from the only one and actually quite low down on the "reasons to run Unaware Clefable" list with terrors like Dragon Dance Feraligatr and Dragonite as well as Swords Dance Garchomp and Scizor being drastically more threatening to balance in the current metagame. Now I've seen a lot of people say that you can just stack hazards to allow Manaphy to break Clefable but this seems to be an "in theory" assertion rather than one based on experience or play testing as we only have 2 viable Spike setters in Skarmory and Roserade both of which hardly fit onto many teams outside of their respective playstyles making them fairly rare and even if they do show up Clefable still always switches in and heals off the damage even with 1 layer of Spikes and Stealth Rock up and is still roll dependent to break Clefable with 2 layers of Spikes and all this is assuming that Spikes are staying on the field in the first place which is fairly tough given the excellence of Defog Gliscor and Scizor as well as Starmie Rapid Spinning in a tier where the only viable ghost is Gengar. So in short somewhat ironically famed balance crusher Manaphy is dead weight against balance and its struggles against other playstyles have been heavily documented in the many posts before this one.

I relate what LittleSpookz says about Manaphy not beating Clefable in Balance. As bad as Balance is right now, any attempt to make it work would simply include Unaware Clefable that Manaphy never beats solely. And as every Balance team would run an answer to those very scary water mons that are running around, even Skill Swap isn't really potent versus Balance. Where Clefable can easily be overwhelmed, especially in Balance, you don't need Manaphy to have a ton of reasons to run Clefable in current BDSP OU.

At this point, this suspect test is more a question of "Should we take the opportunity of the Manaphy suspect test to start the cleaning of the BDSP OU somewhere ?". If most of people agrees that among all the culprits Manaphy isn't the most terrifying one and wants a second Latios suspect test, I feel like Latios is the tree that hides the forest. The lack of defensive countermeasures to anything has pushed the metagame on a very offensive tendency but, the less of offensive threats we do have, more Manaphy will thrive. Most posts have pointed out the difficulty to prevent Manaphy getting one KO and I am concerned if we get rid of what stops Manaphy of getting more than one KO, leaning towards even more restrictive answers. I feel like the necessity of roles compression is at too high stakes right now and if starting by the suspect test of Manaphy isn't the best way to alleviate the weight, it still is a starting point.

All in all, I do truly respect the will of doing things in the right order which is always the best thing to do when there is time and who knows more Manaphy answers will show up the time going. Though, I'm worried about the attractivity of the format as OU is always the entry point to a generation. The route to an healthy and enjoyable metagame is gonna be long and both first Latios suspect test and current Manaphy suspect test feel like a waste of time. For these reasons I would vote for a ban of Manaphy.

 

[theotherguytm]

1. Manaphy Doesn't Beat Balance

As the guy whos gained a reputation for thinking Gliscor is a problem that requires tiering action and "coping" about balance being good I believe I'm probably the most qualified person to point this out but Manaphy not only doesn't beat balance but assuming both players are playing at a fairly decent level of skill Manaphy should never get a single KO against balance and the reason for that is fairly simple. Unaware Clefable is as much a staple on balance as Blissey is on stall and while famed balance crusher Manaphy is one of the reasons for that it is far from the only one and actually quite low down on the "reasons to run Unaware Clefable" list with terrors like Dragon Dance Feraligatr and Dragonite as well as Swords Dance Garchomp and Scizor being drastically more threatening to balance in the current metagame. Now I've seen a lot of people say that you can just stack hazards to allow Manaphy to break Clefable but this seems to be an "in theory" assertion rather than one based on experience or play testing as we only have 2 viable Spike setters in Skarmory and Roserade both of which hardly fit onto many teams outside of their respective playstyles making them fairly rare and even if they do show up Clefable still always switches in and heals off the damage even with 1 layer of Spikes and Stealth Rock up and is still roll dependent to break Clefable with 2 layers of Spikes and all this is assuming that Spikes are staying on the field in the first place which is fairly tough given the excellence of Defog Gliscor and Scizor as well as Starmie Rapid Spinning in a tier where the only viable ghost is Gengar. So in short somewhat ironically famed balance crusher Manaphy is dead weight against balance and its struggles against other playstyles have been heavily documented in the many posts before this one.

I disagree with this on the grounds Magic Guard Clefable would be a much better option on balance if Manaphy was not in the tier, since the ability to run Life Orb makes it much less passive and able to turn into a reliable offensive weapon instead of just a blank wall, and also makes it immune to status chip. Unaware is less of a case of it being splashable than a necessity. Manaphy aside, it is not its best set, as most setup mons right now either break it unboosted or outright set up on it. But you have to run it anyway to not just press X to the first Manaphy you see.

It's not that Feraligatr and Dragonite are better at breaking balance in general than Manaphy, it's that the literally 2 or 3 team structures Manaphy forces you to use on balance are easy for Feraligatr and co. to exploit, and trying to build something that doesn't just fold like paper to Manaphy requires you to abandon or weaken these matchups. I think that's the main thing this post overlooks, yes Feraligatr is the trendy new threat that beats current balance structures, now how to build something new that stops that without instantly folding to Manaphy?

 

[Eve]

Hi everyone! Just dropping by to say that the council will be voting on quickbanning Gengar immediately following this suspect test. This is being done to accelerate the tiering process with the tier's current instability, and Gengar has been selected as a large majority of the playerbase finds it unbalanced (according to our recent survey). Sorry for announcing this so late in the suspect!

 

[Mike Legend]

Hi everyone! Just dropping by to say that the council will be voting on quickbanning Gengar immediately following this suspect test. This is being done to accelerate the tiering process with the tier's current instability, and Gengar has been selected as a large majority of the playerbase finds it unbalanced (according to our recent survey). Sorry for announcing this so late in the suspect!

Of the 329 responses, 67.2% of them believe that Gengar is fine in the current metagame, whereas 34.3% of the playerbase believes that it could benefit from some tiering action. TIL 34% is a large majority

Majority in the qualified playerbase, to be more specific. ~Eve

 

[LittleSpookz]

Hi everyone! Just dropping by to say that the council will be voting on quickbanning Gengar immediately following this suspect test. This is being done to accelerate the tiering process with the tier's current instability, and Gengar has been selected as a large majority of the playerbase finds it unbalanced (according to our recent survey). Sorry for announcing this so late in the suspect!

I'm aware the survey thing is just justification and this was happening regardless but since its being brought up I'm not sure the survey that was used is a reliable source of information due to both the lack of a feedback section and the very black and white nature of the available responses. For instance "<Insert Pokémon> is entirely balanced and no tiering action should take place" and "Insert Pokémon is generally balanced and I would not support any tiering action" are essentially the same response with the same core idea "<Insert Pokémon> is fine don't touch it" with the other two options yielding the same problem of only communicating "<Insert Pokémon> broke please ban/suspect". These four options actually only being 2 options which are essentially "ban" or "no ban" forced participants into only presenting the extreme options and if their opinion was anywhere in the middle (and seeing as most people actively avoid extremes this is VERY likely) they simply could not communicate that in any way. Anyone who was unsure if a Pokémon was broken or unhealthy but thought it deserved a look was forced to go to the extreme "yes please ban" option and anyone who thought a Pokémon may be pushing it but wasn't absolutely certain that it for sure needed a ban had to go to the "absolutely no ban/suspect" option and given the fact that the vast majority will always sit somewhere between the two extremes this drastically effects the results and information communicated by the survey that was ran which is also likely the cause of the widespread shock of the gap between expectations for the survey and the final result.

TLDR: The current survey has too many problems to be used for any reliable information and should not be the primary source for any information or decisions about the playerbase's view of the current metagame unless a new survey without these massive problems is run.

 

[Savouras]

I find it ridiculous that u are going to quickban a pokemon like Gengar. Thats a good title.

Since RBY, since old DPP up until Gen 8 SS or BDSP Gengar has been a pokemon doing its thing in OU and UU tiers forever now. This Pokemon has been in OU tiers more years than i have been able to walk and speak and you about to quickban it because a survey you did showed the majority of people finding it alright in the metagame as posted above.
I hope this is an early april fools prank honestly cuz if its not and you actually gonna do it im quitting BDSP OU.
Not because i desperately want Gengar to stay in OU but because it clearly would show our impact as players on the tier is non existent and staff quickban, suspect tests and removes anything because they find it broken themselfs.

Now i totally understand that the BDSP council is doing their best to form a solid, healthy and competitive metagame for us to enjoy. I dont doubt that.
However the members of the council are fresh, inexperienced with little success or even tournament participation so i do doubt their decisions on quickbanning stuff by themselfs. Still their opinions are very respectable just like everyone else but what im trying to say is that im not gonna close my eyes and follow without doubting and responding based on what i have seen and feel from playing myself to whatever decision the Council comes up with.
Thats where the playerbase should come to place and with both the Council leading those quickbans and suspect tests and the responses from the playerbase im sure we will be able to shape the metagame we all gonna be enjoy playing.

Take your time with those decisions, theres no need to rush such major changes for the metagame based on a survey. Do a Suspect Test instead.
In the past those drastic changes and bans have been made because Councils tried to prevent broken pokemons being allowed right before a big, major, official smogon tournament like SPL World Cup or whatever begins. We dont have those problems with BDSP OU so no need to skip the Suspect test process.
Let everyone have an opinion on Gengar, the council, the Tournament Players, the active Ladder players we should all have a word on Gengar if it should be OU or banned to Ubers.

Finally im not gonna talk and go about my thoughts on Gengar and why it should stay OU or if it should be banned. Ill keep them for the Suspect Test that hopefully will be chosen instead. Much respect to the Council, u guys have been doing great (maybe except this one) and i hope my post doesnt come out as a hateful message against you. I did have to address tho that i found this decision stupid, why i found it stupid and what we should be doing instead.
Thank you!

 

[Lalaya]

I find it ridiculous that u are going to quickban a pokemon like Gengar. Thats a good title.

Since RBY, since old DPP up until Gen 8 SS or BDSP Gengar has been a pokemon doing its thing in OU and UU tiers forever now. This Pokemon has been in OU tiers more years than i have been able to walk and speak and you about to quickban it because a survey you did showed the majority of people finding it alright in the metagame as posted above.
I hope this is an early april fools prank honestly cuz if its not and you actually gonna do it im quitting BDSP OU.
Not because i desperately want Gengar to stay in OU but because it clearly would show our impact as players on the tier is non existent and staff quickban, suspect tests and removes anything because they find it broken themselfs.

Now i totally understand that the BDSP council is doing their best to form a solid, healthy and competitive metagame for us to enjoy. I dont doubt that.
However the members of the council are fresh, inexperienced with little success or even tournament participation so i do doubt their decisions on quickbanning stuff by themselfs. Still their opinions are very respectable just like everyone else but what im trying to say is that im not gonna close my eyes and follow without doubting and responding based on what i have seen and feel from playing myself to whatever decision the Council comes up with.
Thats where the playerbase should come to place and with both the Council leading those quickbans and suspect tests and the responses from the playerbase im sure we will be able to shape the metagame we all gonna be enjoy playing.

Take your time with those decisions, theres no need to rush such major changes for the metagame based on a survey. Do a Suspect Test instead.
In the past those drastic changes and bans have been made because Councils tried to prevent broken pokemons being allowed right before a big, major, official smogon tournament like SPL World Cup or whatever begins. We dont have those problems with BDSP OU so no need to skip the Suspect test process.
Let everyone have an opinion on Gengar, the council, the Tournament Players, the active Ladder players we should all have a word on Gengar if it should be OU or banned to Ubers.

Finally im not gonna talk and go about my thoughts on Gengar and why it should stay OU or if it should be banned. Ill keep them for the Suspect Test that hopefully will be chosen instead. Much respect to the Council, u guys have been doing great (maybe except this one) and i hope my post doesnt come out as a hateful message against you. I did have to address tho that i found this decision stupid, why i found it stupid and what we should be doing instead.
Thank you!

not gonna lie this is the worst thing I had to read justifying a suspect test
just because Gengar never got quickbanned in the first place doesn't mean it never will, if the meta aligns the perfect coincidences to make Gengar busted, he needs to go, regardless of Gengar's status as THE OU Pokémon until now
and it's not like if we ban Gengar from here it will get banned everywhere forever lmao

That being said I fully agree with the quickban, Gengar is too much for the tier to embrace and there are 0 motives to delay the inevitable when this Pokémon can deny every kind of defensive counterplay and you're not safe against it unless you throw a scarfer or Alakazam/Weavile to it; not even the current priority spam beats it alone, you need a faster Pokémon (or Crawdaunt) if you don't wanna lose and that only forces a 50/50, not a instakill situation, since you can take advantage very easily from Scarfers
Specs has no switchins, Life Orb has some switchins but they get instantly invalidated by a Nasty Plot, Substitute gives you a safety net against some of the options to revenge Gengar, and it can even 1v1 Blissey

Seriously there are no reasons to keep this menace in the tier and I will literally fight anyone who thinks otherwise because this is almost as clear if not clearer as the Drizzle ban. Thank you to the council for the job they're doing so far, this had to be done. (also lmao @ saying council inexperience when literally everyone in had at least a tier if not more (hi lily, finch))
(also this doesn't mean everyone of these can't get retested down the line, but really I don't wanna another month of Gengar just to accomodate some users)

 

[Savouras]

not gonna lie this is the worst thing I had to read justifying a suspect test
just because Gengar never got quickbanned in the first place doesn't mean it never will, if the meta aligns the perfect coincidences to make Gengar busted, he needs to go, regardless of Gengar's status as THE OU Pokémon until now
and it's not like if we ban Gengar from here it will get banned everywhere forever lmao

That being said I fully agree with the quickban, Gengar is too much for the tier to embrace and there are 0 motives to delay the inevitable when this Pokémon can deny every kind of defensive counterplay and you're not safe against it unless you throw a scarfer or Alakazam/Weavile to it; not even the current priority spam beats it alone, you need a faster Pokémon (or Crawdaunt) if you don't wanna lose and that only forces a 50/50, not a instakill situation, since you can take advantage very easily from Scarfers
Specs has no switchins, Life Orb has some switchins but they get instantly invalidated by a Nasty Plot, Substitute gives you a safety net against some of the options to revenge Gengar, and it can even 1v1 Blissey

Seriously there are no reasons to keep this menace in the tier and I will literally fight anyone who thinks otherwise because this is almost as clear if not clearer as the Drizzle ban. Thank you to the council for the job they're doing so far, this had to be done. (also lmao @ saying council inexperience when literally everyone in had at least a tier if not more (hi lily, finch))
(also this doesn't mean everyone of these can't get retested down the line, but really I don't wanna another month of Gengar just to accomodate some users)

I think it makes perfect sense and i dont find it stupid at all to justify a suspect test instead of a quickban that a Pokemon which has been OU for more than a decade, never banned before and even dropped in lower tiers it is a drastic change to quickban it in the middle of the generation like all of a sudden we figured out its a problem for a metagame. I also think it makes perfect sense when majority of the community thinks Gengar for the most part is fine in the meta to Suspect Test it.

Totally respectable opinions and if you ask me Gengar is very good i agree, havent decided yet if its too good or not to get banned but the whole process of suspect testing threats is for everyone who plays the generation to be able to give his thought, experiment with the pokemon and decide if its too much or not. Especially in a Metagame that we had such big threats and Gengar was abit under the radar of many with Latios, Rain, Blaziken, Manaphy, strong breakers like Crawdaunt etc. Give everyone the opportunity to think of it and vote for this.
No BDSP SPL coming up and its only few smaller but fun tournaments coming up so the only reason to quickban it instead of allow us to have a word on this is your personal views that go opposite with what people think about the pokemon. So Suspect Test it instead.

 

[theotherguytm]

I'm aware the survey thing is just justification and this was happening regardless but since its being brought up I'm not sure the survey that was used is a reliable source of information due to both the lack of a feedback section and the very black and white nature of the available responses. For instance "<Insert Pokémon> is entirely balanced and no tiering action should take place" and "Insert Pokémon is generally balanced and I would not support any tiering action" are essentially the same response with the same core idea "<Insert Pokémon> is fine don't touch it" with the other two options yielding the same problem of only communicating "<Insert Pokémon> broke please ban/suspect". These four options actually only being 2 options which are essentially "ban" or "no ban" forced participants into only presenting the extreme options and if their opinion was anywhere in the middle (and seeing as most people actively avoid extremes this is VERY likely) they simply could not communicate that in any way. Anyone who was unsure if a Pokémon was broken or unhealthy but thought it deserved a look was forced to go to the extreme "yes please ban" option and anyone who thought a Pokémon may be pushing it but wasn't absolutely certain that it for sure needed a ban had to go to the "absolutely no ban/suspect" option and given the fact that the vast majority will always sit somewhere between the two extremes this drastically effects the results and information communicated by the survey that was ran which is also likely the cause of the widespread shock of the gap between expectations for the survey and the final result.

TLDR: The current survey has too many problems to be used for any reliable information and should not be the primary source for any information or decisions about the playerbase's view of the current metagame unless a new survey without these massive problems is run.

Hate to reply to obvious bait but there was literally an abstain option. Also, "please ban" is different to "please suspect" because the whole point of a suspect is to give people who are undecided chance to make up their mind, just like you want.

I find it ridiculous that u are going to quickban a pokemon like Gengar. Thats a good title.

Since RBY, since old DPP up until Gen 8 SS or BDSP Gengar has been a pokemon doing its thing in OU and UU tiers forever now. This Pokemon has been in OU tiers more years than i have been able to walk and speak and you about to quickban it because a survey you did showed the majority of people finding it alright in the metagame as posted above.
I hope this is an early april fools prank honestly cuz if its not and you actually gonna do it im quitting BDSP OU.
Not because i desperately want Gengar to stay in OU but because it clearly would show our impact as players on the tier is non existent and staff quickban, suspect tests and removes anything because they find it broken themselfs.

Now i totally understand that the BDSP council is doing their best to form a solid, healthy and competitive metagame for us to enjoy. I dont doubt that.
However the members of the council are fresh, inexperienced with little success or even tournament participation so i do doubt their decisions on quickbanning stuff by themselfs. Still their opinions are very respectable just like everyone else but what im trying to say is that im not gonna close my eyes and follow without doubting and responding based on what i have seen and feel from playing myself to whatever decision the Council comes up with.
Thats where the playerbase should come to place and with both the Council leading those quickbans and suspect tests and the responses from the playerbase im sure we will be able to shape the metagame we all gonna be enjoy playing.

Take your time with those decisions, theres no need to rush such major changes for the metagame based on a survey. Do a Suspect Test instead.
In the past those drastic changes and bans have been made because Councils tried to prevent broken pokemons being allowed right before a big, major, official smogon tournament like SPL World Cup or whatever begins. We dont have those problems with BDSP OU so no need to skip the Suspect test process.
Let everyone have an opinion on Gengar, the council, the Tournament Players, the active Ladder players we should all have a word on Gengar if it should be OU or banned to Ubers.

Finally im not gonna talk and go about my thoughts on Gengar and why it should stay OU or if it should be banned. Ill keep them for the Suspect Test that hopefully will be chosen instead. Much respect to the Council, u guys have been doing great (maybe except this one) and i hope my post doesnt come out as a hateful message against you. I did have to address tho that i found this decision stupid, why i found it stupid and what we should be doing instead.
Thank you!

View attachment 400701 View attachment 400702 View attachment 400703 View attachment 400704

You see, in these oldgens where Gengar was OU/UU, we had this move called Pursuit, and now we don't, and also it has Nasty Plot now. Gengar's status in oldgens quite rightly has 0 impact on tiering here.

Also Lmao at you complaining about 1 quickban when the Latios DNB result has forced the council to adapt massively to what the community wants. It's totally normal for a tier in development to have multiple early quickbans, if anything the council has been very quick-ban light and I personally would have had no problems at all with more quickbans than we've had then retests later so we can actually get on with developing a healthy metagame where Scizor has less than 50% usage. Instead, the council chose to suspect Latios rather than QB it and the community voted DNB. Isn't that direct counterexample to what you said?

 

[Savouras]

Hate to reply to obvious bait but there was literally an abstain option. Also, "please ban" is different to "please suspect" because the whole point of a suspect is to give people who are undecided chance to make up their mind, just like you want.

You see, in these oldgens where Gengar was OU/UU, we had this move called Pursuit, and now we don't, and also it has Nasty Plot now. Gengar's status in oldgens quite rightly has 0 impact on tiering here.

Also Lmao at you complaining about 1 quickban when the Latios DNB result has forced the council to adapt massively to what the community wants. It's totally normal for a tier in development to have multiple early quickbans, if anything the council has been very quick-ban light and I personally would have had no problems at all with more quickbans than we've had then retests later so we can actually get on with developing a healthy metagame where Scizor has less than 50% usage. Instead, the council chose to suspect Latios rather than QB it and the community voted DNB. Isn't that direct counterexample to what you said?

In Sword and Shield we didnt have Pursuit and Gengar has nasty plot and its tiering is not Ubers at all. Every enviroment is different but its still surprising and a drastic change for a pokemon which has been in many different enviroments and metagames for more than a decade OU and lower to quickban it and say thats its suddently OP. Not saying its impossible but in this case again Suspect Test would make alot more sense.

Also i dont complain about 1 quickban, i complain about most quickbans, i even complained about Rain being gone so get your facts straight :P. Generally i believe Council should adapt to what the community wants aswell and they did with Latios and now with Manaphy so again no problem at all with what Council is doing for the most part. I have alot of respect for the work they do but i can disagree with a decision aswell as explain why if you dont mind.
When talking about developing a healthy metagame well Landorus had skyhigh usage aswell for many years so Scizor having high usage doesnt mean that the metagame isnt healthy and enjoyable.

The Community voting DNB on Latios and soon Manaphy in fact proves many of my points and if those Pokemons were Quickbanned aswell u would get a completely different result from what the community agrees with, so unless we dont give a shit about what people do i think the Suspect Tests instead of QBs on those two were the correct choices.
I dont think im askin for something crazy, since people dont think Gengar is too much but Council does do a suspect test aswell to decide all together what should be done about it and give everyone the opportunity not to just have a word on this but experiment with the pokemon aswell.

 

[Lalaya]

In Sword and Shield we didnt have Pursuit and Gengar has nasty plot and its tiering is not Ubers at all. Every enviroment is different but its still surprising and a drastic change for a pokemon which has been in many different enviroments and metagames for more than a decade OU and lower to quickban it and say thats its suddently OP. Not saying its impossible but in this case again Suspect Test would make alot more sense.

just because Gengar never got quickbanned in the first place doesn't mean it never will, if the meta aligns the perfect coincidences to make Gengar busted, he needs to go, regardless of Gengar's status as THE OU Pokémon until now

do I get paid for repeating myself
also PLEASE don't ever even imply this meta is similar to SS
half of SS OU's list can deal with Gengar in one way or another because to nobody's surprise the Pokémon in there are just better than the Pokémon in here (and with better movepools, too)
and even then it's UUBL, with it or UU containing a large part of the Pokémon we have here if you really want to make a comparison (again, with better movepools)
I really don't wanna entertain the idea any further but this being an argument is just

No

 

[KaenSoul]

I have no idea how could anyone at this point defend Gengar in BDSP, there is no mons in the whole game that can switch into it and dont risk losing (Scizor cant switch into specs sb or WoW, while even max HP/SpD Blissey can lose to NP) and that while having a really good speed tier of 110, with substitute sets making it really hard to revenge kill while also being immune to both Mach Punch and Extreme Speed, and is not made of paper like Zam so even strong priority like band Aqua Jet from Daunt is not a guaranteed ko with rocks.

Every single team is weak to most Gengar sets except those with CM Blissey running max hp/SpD, those are only weak to NP and Disable Gengar.
Please dont compare this meta to any other, steel dont resist ghost here, pursuit isnt here, most stuff faster and viable than Gengar isnt here (you have Weavile, Azelf and Zam, and maybe Shadow Ball Raikou if that counts and thats about it).

Gengar shits on every team archetype, and make me not want to play anything but the safest forms of stall as playing anything else is just accepting specs gengar may get a kill every time it hits the field, the tier hasnt been fun since i realised how broken Gengar is. I get people want to be able to vote and to be listen, but the correct result here is so obvious i feel like it would be a total waste of time, at least post now a reason to vote do not ban in a possible gengar suspect test if you dont agree with a quick ban.
Like seriously, im fine with everything else staying in the tier even when i think Manaphy should leave, but if Gengar not only survive this quick ban but also a suspect test in the future im just droping this, it has to be banned as soon as possible.

 

[Eve]

This is still the suspect thread for Manaphy, please keep discussion on topic- this has become too far derailed. Any further posts continuing the above conversation in this thread will be deleted. If you must post about Gengar, please use the BDSP Discord or general OU Discussion Thread!