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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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Terrakion beats Skarmory if you use Swords Dance regardless of whether or not you run Hidden Power Ice (assuming Stealth Rock is on the field to break Sturdy or that it's just not at full health). Skarmory walls it if it uses Rock Polish regardless of whether or not you run Hidden Power Ice. Presumably, you have a way to deal with Skarmory if you choose to sacrifice the ability to beat it in order to beat Gliscor instead. If you don't, that's just bad team building.
Edit: Ninja'd, sort of.
Edit: Ninja'd, sort of.
I'm sorry I just get a little exasperated when people spend 3 pages of a megathread arguing over the viability of one move on one Pokemon.
And I'm not saying that you have to use HP Ice. But you can't just say "it's a bad option because it only hits Gliscor".
its a filler. you dont need rock polish to sweep. you dont need swords dance to sweep. you do need you stabs to sweep. and you dont need coverage moves to sweep.
just because it lets you do something, doesnt make it not a filler. thats like saying taunt on gliscor is not a filler because it lets you do _____. people are using other moves over it because its not the most important thing in the set.
just because it lets you do something, doesnt make it not a filler. thats like saying taunt on gliscor is not a filler because it lets you do _____. people are using other moves over it because its not the most important thing in the set.
yea but if the whole terrakion thing applies to scrafty too,then it will have to "lure skarmory in" and then "kill it" so that i can "sweep."
Im just applying it onto other pokemon because thats what you are saying. you have to lure youre counters and then kill it.
i dont think u will be able to sweep with just stone edge and close combat. what if starmie comes in?
on a swords dance scizor. is SD a filler? nope. its not.
I think the problem is you think all teams are the same. What if the team has gengar? Starmie? Thundurus or excadrill? Or basically anything that outspeeds it. Or hell, if you use adamant you have even more stuff that outspeed you and KO like virizion and jolly CB haxorus. You cannot sweep these pokemon with hp ice sd Terrakion. How can it use its STAB's to sweep when it cant outspeed anything. Rock polish without a SD can finish the game at the end. Rock polish + SD hits alot more teams than HP ice. Here is a little secret, please don't tell anyone......
gliscor isnt the only physical wall.
Not every monster can lure and kill their conventional counters... that's why a Fighting Type with an Ice move is appealing b/c it has the option to break the most prominent Fighting Wall that is Gliscor.
This is where the help of teammates are required.
Curtains, Rock Polish > HP Ice is good to have against offensive teams; HP Ice is good to have against teams with Gliscor. They both have their uses. You just need to be wise enough to know which one would benefit you more.
Please stop arguing for the sake of arguing.
This is where the help of teammates are required.
Curtains, Rock Polish > HP Ice is good to have against offensive teams; HP Ice is good to have against teams with Gliscor. They both have their uses. You just need to be wise enough to know which one would benefit you more.
Please stop arguing for the sake of arguing.
Anyway, I've got some new observations related to the metagame and unrelated to the debate over whether Hidden Power Ice is viable on Terrakion or not.
Now that Politoed is absolutely everywhere, Grass as a type has actually become pretty good. Grass-types with reliable recovery are especially useful since they'll probably be taking plenty of attacks. A lot of them can mess with sandstorm teams as well, so that's pretty nice.
I really need to start building solid weather teams since I've been focusing on weatherless teams for most of Generation 5. I've tried out sandstorm and rain teams, but I have yet to really try out sun. My sandstorm and rain teams kind of sucked, though, so I may end up trying those out again instead of sun. The fact that it has made something as otherwise utterly worthless as Politoed one of the defining elements of the BW OU metagame really says a lot about Drizzle's power. It's the same with Drought and Ninetales, to an extent. Tyranitar was just an amazing Pokemon to begin with.
So, does anyone want to share some cool or successful sets they've come up with? I've been thinking about using Choice Scarf Heracross. Adamant Heracross still outspeeds the things it needs to and can actually OHKO some pretty significant things. It has about a 66 per cent chance to OHKO 4 HP / 0 Def Politoed after Stealth Rock with Close Combat or Megahorn and it will always OHKO Tornadus and Thundurus with Rock Slide after Stealth Rock and will OHKO with Stone Edge regardless of field conditions. Megahorn lets it OHKO Latios and Latias, while Close Combat lets it OHKO 252 HP / 0 Def Ninetales after Stealth Rock. Obviously, Heracross needs Stealth Rock to work well, so Heatran makes a good partner, as it can set up Stealth Rock and cover Heracross's weaknesses. It can probably do more useful things, but I haven't tried it out yet so I don't really know. I'm just going by damage calcs here.
Protip: It is. You just have to acknowledge the pros and cons to using it, which is true for literally every move ever. It's not the right fit for every team, but neither is anything else Terrakion can do. If you're running any Pokemon, you have to acknowledge its weaknesses and compensate for them.
Now that Politoed is absolutely everywhere, Grass as a type has actually become pretty good. Grass-types with reliable recovery are especially useful since they'll probably be taking plenty of attacks. A lot of them can mess with sandstorm teams as well, so that's pretty nice.
I really need to start building solid weather teams since I've been focusing on weatherless teams for most of Generation 5. I've tried out sandstorm and rain teams, but I have yet to really try out sun. My sandstorm and rain teams kind of sucked, though, so I may end up trying those out again instead of sun. The fact that it has made something as otherwise utterly worthless as Politoed one of the defining elements of the BW OU metagame really says a lot about Drizzle's power. It's the same with Drought and Ninetales, to an extent. Tyranitar was just an amazing Pokemon to begin with.
So, does anyone want to share some cool or successful sets they've come up with? I've been thinking about using Choice Scarf Heracross. Adamant Heracross still outspeeds the things it needs to and can actually OHKO some pretty significant things. It has about a 66 per cent chance to OHKO 4 HP / 0 Def Politoed after Stealth Rock with Close Combat or Megahorn and it will always OHKO Tornadus and Thundurus with Rock Slide after Stealth Rock and will OHKO with Stone Edge regardless of field conditions. Megahorn lets it OHKO Latios and Latias, while Close Combat lets it OHKO 252 HP / 0 Def Ninetales after Stealth Rock. Obviously, Heracross needs Stealth Rock to work well, so Heatran makes a good partner, as it can set up Stealth Rock and cover Heracross's weaknesses. It can probably do more useful things, but I haven't tried it out yet so I don't really know. I'm just going by damage calcs here.
The issue with ScarfCross has always been the ease in walling it. Close Combat and Megahorns are two moves that are easy to wall usually. Skarmory, Heatran, and Conkeldurr walls Megahorn; Jellicent and Gliscor walls both. If you're going to Scarf, I think Pursuit is necessary so it can actually damage something before it gets walled.
It seems to be outdone by CB Scizor in most ways. CB Scizor has a powerful Bullet Punch to revenge-kill stuff (although it can't kill Specs Politoed or Thundurus) and U-turn for desirable match-ups.
I personally feel Heracross is better at wall-breaking than revenge-killing. A Flame Orb set with Close Combat, Night Slash, Facade, and Swords Dance can break walls. If you don't like Flame Orb, even a simple Swords Dance set with Close Combat, Stone-Edge, and Megahorn hits everything hard; it would be tougher to break Gliscor, but Gliscor with Ice Fang can't do shit.
It seems to be outdone by CB Scizor in most ways. CB Scizor has a powerful Bullet Punch to revenge-kill stuff (although it can't kill Specs Politoed or Thundurus) and U-turn for desirable match-ups.
I personally feel Heracross is better at wall-breaking than revenge-killing. A Flame Orb set with Close Combat, Night Slash, Facade, and Swords Dance can break walls. If you don't like Flame Orb, even a simple Swords Dance set with Close Combat, Stone-Edge, and Megahorn hits everything hard; it would be tougher to break Gliscor, but Gliscor with Ice Fang can't do shit.
All this talk about gliscor reminded me of a quote someone said once before half jokingly that "If you are countered by Tyrannitar, which is the most used pokemon in OU, then you are not Uber". The current metagame feels the same except with Gliscor in Ttar's place.
I know, it's not the same. But reguarding many physical attackers without ice moves, gliscor is a great wall.
You're better off using Scarf Medicham than Scarf Heracross. If you run Jolly, you still end up with higher attack and speed than Adamant Scarf Heracross. While you don't get the risk free Close Combat, you do gain Ice Punch, meaning Gliscor is less inclined to switch in. And while Zen Headbutt/Psycho Cut are lesser options as a secondary STAB to Megahorn, you gain the ever useful Trick. If you face a stall team, chances are after you get rid of your Scarf, you're still faster than everything they're using. But if you suck shit at predicting when to HJK, it's probably best to stick to the other fighters.
These are definitely valid points. I don't really think that it should necessarily be compared to Scizor, though. Fighting-type STAB is a pretty big plus, along with access to Stone Edge and Rock Slide. The only things in OU that resist both of Heracross's STAB attacks and are neutral to or resist Stone Edge or Rock Slide are Gliscor, Jellicent, Landorus, Toxicroak, and Tentacruel. Skarmory walls it because Skarmory has amazing physical bulk, while Gyarados and Salamence have Intimidate to cushion the attacks and access to some form of recovery. Dragonite can do the same thing without Intimidate. Rotom-W actually takes care of most of these Pokemon, so pairing it up with Choice Band or Choice Scarf Heracross might be worth trying out.
I suppose you could use Night Slash over Pursuit if you wanted to hit Jellicent on the switch, but really that fourth option is almost filler.
Prediction runs both ways, so while it's easy to wall Megahorn with Heatran, for example, Heatran isn't going to like taking a Close Combat if I predict a switch. Like most Pokemon utilizing Choice items, prediction is important on both sides.
I'd like to nominate Jirachi as a suspect under the Stop Being Such an Annoying Little Abomination Clause. I'm tired of running both Heatran and Skarmory and then losing both of them to paraflinch. I really hate the standard Wish / Body Slam / Iron Head / Filler set since it's designed specifically to introduce luck into the game. It explicitly relies on secondary effects occuring, which they usually do thanks to Serene Game-Freak-Hates-Competitive-Players Grace.
I'm not actually nominating Jirachi as a broken Pokemon; it's just really annoying and I need to vent.
Lucario with Inner focus can stop that. Steadfast is better usually but haxrachi is probably paralyzing you anyway.
edit: Have to definately agree with you though. I hate that little bastard. I can kill it moderately easy, but the SP Def versions are a pain in the ass still.
edit: Have to definately agree with you though. I hate that little bastard. I can kill it moderately easy, but the SP Def versions are a pain in the ass still.
However, it is an extremely potent and popular physical wall. The same could be said for Garchomp. It wasn't the only physical attacker, and barring extreme hax, it was countered by Skarmory. However, it was popular and potent enough to garner a supermajority and get its ass kicked straight back to Ubers. While this may be comparing apples to oranges, it's still enough to disprove your point.
Between the high usages of Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Jellicent, Gliscors, Heatran, Excadrill and Magnezone, there's more natural counters for the hax inducing Jirachi nowadays. Ferrothorn and Skarmory will do exceptionally well using Jirachi as set up bait, though Ferrothorn has to watch for Fire Punch, but that's not a problem if you're using it in rain. As for Gliscor, as long as you make sure you get Toxic Orb activated and you're good to go. Jellicent is probably a complete hard counter to Haxing Jirachis, but has to indefinitely watch out for CM ones. Heatran is fine if you're using bulky ones, as they don't care for the speed as much. Excadrill can easily abuse the Thunder Wave ones and Magnezone does fine if Jirachi is without U-Turn.
Another thing is, a lot of water Pokes don't mind the parahax attempt as long as Sand isn't out. Iron Head does way too little after Leftovers to Gastrodon, Rotom-W, Tentacruel, Politoed, etc.
Though if youre going to get your whole team paralyzed while in the process of walling Jirachi, make sure you run Heal Bell so it's teammates doesn't abuse the influx of status.
Another thing is, a lot of water Pokes don't mind the parahax attempt as long as Sand isn't out. Iron Head does way too little after Leftovers to Gastrodon, Rotom-W, Tentacruel, Politoed, etc.
Though if youre going to get your whole team paralyzed while in the process of walling Jirachi, make sure you run Heal Bell so it's teammates doesn't abuse the influx of status.
Jellicent is a pretty good Rachi counter, when I used him before. Scald burn stops iron head sweep, and if you run cursed body, you can lol at him when he can't hax you every turn.
ffffs faladran thinking he's a nice person and yet liking jirachi
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anyways Gliscor is pretty much the best Jirachi counter possible assuming it's the standard set and you have Toxic Orb activated; Golurk walls Jirachi no matter what lololol
tbh i just have pokemon that can threaten it come in and it works just fine, as Jirachi's offensive presence is somewhat negated if 1) you outspeed it or 2) you resist its attacks
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anyways Gliscor is pretty much the best Jirachi counter possible assuming it's the standard set and you have Toxic Orb activated; Golurk walls Jirachi no matter what lololol
tbh i just have pokemon that can threaten it come in and it works just fine, as Jirachi's offensive presence is somewhat negated if 1) you outspeed it or 2) you resist its attacks
alphatron
Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
Jirachi can just run hp ice to kill Gliscor, since it outspeeds and thunder on rain teams for waters. If you need it, energy ball hits gastro.
I will concede that I was wrong about hp ice terrakion and I was wrong about everything aside from celebi. For gyara, I meant that FB doesn't ohko skarm, who can't touch you if you have taunt anyway.
I will concede that I was wrong about hp ice terrakion and I was wrong about everything aside from celebi. For gyara, I meant that FB doesn't ohko skarm, who can't touch you if you have taunt anyway.
Oh my God...
Enough of HP Ice, for the love of all that is holy I cannot stand to read another post about HP Ice.
Can we talk about Reuniclus? Because that is one bad ass pokemon. Though I've always had trouble using him, the only set that I can really get is the OTR varient, maybe because I only play offensive teams, but CM versions are usually just dead weight whenever I play them / use them. On top of that I can't really find many good partners for it. OTR is risky in such a fast game because if Reun dies and TR is still up you're kinda putting yourself "out there" in terms of speed. You need to kind of limit yourself which I've found really annoying. With the CM versions I just can't think of any really good partners. I figured Scrafty would be an awesome partner for it but in the end I found that Scrafty was just doing most of the sweeping instead.
Reuniclus is a sweet pokemon, I just can't get the bloody CM set working!
Enough of HP Ice, for the love of all that is holy I cannot stand to read another post about HP Ice.
Can we talk about Reuniclus? Because that is one bad ass pokemon. Though I've always had trouble using him, the only set that I can really get is the OTR varient, maybe because I only play offensive teams, but CM versions are usually just dead weight whenever I play them / use them. On top of that I can't really find many good partners for it. OTR is risky in such a fast game because if Reun dies and TR is still up you're kinda putting yourself "out there" in terms of speed. You need to kind of limit yourself which I've found really annoying. With the CM versions I just can't think of any really good partners. I figured Scrafty would be an awesome partner for it but in the end I found that Scrafty was just doing most of the sweeping instead.
Reuniclus is a sweet pokemon, I just can't get the bloody CM set working!
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