Metagame np: SV DOU Stage 5: White Lines (Cocaine Bear Remix) | Ursaluna Banned

[HeatEdgeSword]

Should Terastallization be suspect tested in Doubles OU?

Terastallization is perhaps one of more mixed mechanic Game Freak has ever introduced, at least among the competitive side; casual players seem to generally enjoy it, especially when compared to Dynamax. Personally, I think Terastallization is great addition to the game since it adds variety as well as serving as a toolkit to patch some issues the team has by giving crucial resistance or immunity.

However, a vocal part believes that Terastallization is broken since players has to play the mindgame on when they will terastallize and should be looked upon. For that, it's best to compare to the previous mechanic, Dynamax and inspect if it falls into same pitfall. Also for me to thrash on Dynamax yet again

Did Terastallization force specific counterplays?
During Dynamax's reign, in addition to sleep moves, Yawn saw a rise of usage since Dynamax cannot counteract it by switching out as it will immediately wears off. Similarly, stat-lowering stats such as Eerie Impulse and Fake Tears were used to combat Dynamax. However, Dynamax itself comes with too much advantages or being outright immune to several effects such as Encore. Naturally, these moves' usage has dropped significantly in Gen 9.

By contrast, the only immunity that Terastallization itself comes with is type-changing effects such as Soak and Magic Powder, which were very niche to begin with. From what I seen, Terastallization didn't result in several moves to be noticeably worse or normally niche moves to be used. Spore and Fake Out still sees high usage despite Terastallization potentially being able to deny it.

Did Terastallization break a Pokemon?
To be honest, this is the part that I disagree with the pro-ban side the most, at least in the context of Doubles OU. Unlike in OU where Regieleki gets banned for abusing Ice Tera Blast, there's always other factors to be considered for Pokemon that got banned in Doubles OU.

Let's be real here, it's way too optimized for Rage Fist with 110/80/90 bulk that makes most Pokemon envy of. Even with Terastallization out of the picture, Annihilape would still benefited from screens to discourage foes from hitting it or have its ally using Beat Up to boost Rage Fist's power. Pokemon such as Flutter Mane can now reliable beat it, but it's not impossible for players to position it to a favorable spot. Still broken without Terastallization
You could argue of being a case of it as Tera-Steel blocks Clear Smog and Toxic, but +2 on all stats without having to spending a turn is still ridiculous. Beside, Dondozo does run Rest so Toxic won't be a complete roadblock to them. Still broken without Terastallization
This is definitely the closest example of Terastallization breaking it as Urshifu can Tera-Water to abuse Surging Strikes or Tera-Grass to avoid Amoonguss without needing Safety Goggles. Even then, Urshifu greatly benefited from the metagame shift of no Tapu Fini and RIllaboom losing Grassy Glide. This is also the Pokemon that can bypass Protect thanks to Unseen Fist and Surging Strike always crit, meaning that it doesn't have to worry about Intimidate or defense boosts, and did receive a suspect test last gen, even if Urshifu didn't receive enough votes to be banned. Still broken without Terastallization
Even without Terastallization, Ursaluna still mauls everything like no tomorrow with its high-powered moves with Guts-boosted Facade and Headlong Rush. I argue that without Terastallization, Ursaluna would have been banned earlier. For instances, Cresselia can Tera-Ghost to avoid Facade as well or Diancie can Tera-Grass and resist its Ground-type attacks.

Meanwhile, Dynamax was banned in Doubles OU before any Pokemon were hit by the banhammer for abusing Dynamax, though Beat Up was banned because of a Dynamaxed Terrakion being much difficult to counteract with its immunity to flinching from Fake Out, and Weakness Policy was close to being banned instead of Dynamax. I speculated that if Dynamax stayed, G-Max Charizard would definitely be the first to go, then several Max Airstream abusers such as Cinderace or Landorus would get the boot as well.

With all of that being said, I can definitely acknowledge the power of Terastallization as evidence by Dragonite and Diancie being fantastic recipient of it, while I won't object the idea of a Terastallization suspect test, I don't expect any actions will be taken on it for now.

 

[zee]

gonna keep this brief, something has to be done about basculegion, preferably suspecting the male form outright as opposed to action on last respects. adaptability choice band (see: zee v zoe osdt r3 g3) can kill bulky neutral targets at just 2-3 boosts, swift swim sets on rain builds allow it to act as a devastating cleaner before foes can move (see: arcticblast rain), and the format is pretty hard pressed for dark types that arent also scared of its water moves and actually threaten it back

basc is the most oppressive mon in the tier rn and its not really close to me, please lets do something about it

 

[Mizuhime]

gonna keep this brief, something has to be done about basculegion, preferably suspecting the male form outright as opposed to action on last respects. adaptability choice band (see: zee v zoe osdt r3 g3) can kill bulky neutral targets at just 2-3 boosts, swift swim sets on rain builds allow it to act as a devastating cleaner before foes can move (see: arcticblast rain), and the format is pretty hard pressed for dark types that arent also scared of its water moves and actually threaten it back

basc is the most oppressive mon in the tier rn and its not really close to me, please lets do something about it

+1 to everything zee said.

On top of Last Respect being a silly ass move, Adaptability paired with Wave Crash is a delete button in its own right. Very little can reliably switch in to Bascu and live to speak about it.

However that leads me to my personal gripe with the current state of Doubles OU. Banning Basc will presumably bring in more bulky Pokemon to the meta which makes the infinitely worse. Currently anyone can set screens and tera water something that sets up and just sit there forever. It makes the meta extremely stale and extremely boring + unrewarding. There's no reward for building fun teams, there's no reward for really trying to innovate, and there's not much reason to bring HO of any kind when there's so much that just eliminates the playstyle imo. This is probably not a sentiment shared by a lot of people but I think this is actually one of the worst meta's doubles has have seen. What can be done about that? Who knows. I, however, really have no motivation to play this meta which is why I dropped from OSDT.

 

[GenOne]

My thoughts below, please excuse minor imperfections as I one-shotted this in one evening without proofreading.

Everything I have to say below is my own opinions only and not indicative of anything grander in scale.

Executive Summary:

Is Basculegion on DOU council's radar?

Ya I like to think so; it is clear that much of the DOU community is talking about Basculegion with interest right now and I have raised this with DOU council. The conversations DOU council are having on this topic are underway and it is not my place to say more until said conversations have taken their course.

Does GenOne want to suspect Basculegion-M, and if so, does he want to see it banned?

I personally support initiating a suspect test on Basculegion-M and furthermore believe it is a good idea that should happen, but if it does happen the onus would be on those wishing to challenge the status quo to convince me that I should actually vote to ban Basculegion-M; at this time I am watching the Pokemon with interest but am not persuaded yet that it is banworthy.

What about Tera?

Tera is probably the next most popular topic in line after Basculegion, but my read of the room is that Basculegion is the main headline that ppl are concerned about rn. I think discussion about Tera is totally valid but my stance remains unchanged from what I posted in np4: "Banning a generation's flagship mechanic should be avoided if at all possible in my opinion, but I recognize some members of the DOU community feel Terastialization should be banned and I am amenable to arguments that support this perspective."

Longer explanations:

Is Basculegion on DOU council's radar?

With the Ursaluna ban recently concluded and implemented, and OSDT round 3 having just concluded, it has come to my attention that Basculegion-M is now the next most likely Pokemon that our community is reviewing critically, with some calling for a suspect test to be held on it. Zee's post above with 22+ likes (at the time of my post) is one good indicator that this topic resonates with a lot of people, but I also want to acknowledge that there has also been a lot of similar sentiment and discussion about the same topic on our Discord server which, while harder to track and quantify, is equally valid.

Suffice it to say, I have noticed all this and as DOU's newest council member I can tell you that I have flagged this topic with our council for discussion and further consideration. Above and beyond that, everything I have to say below is my own opinions only and not indicative of anything else:

It is no real surprise to me that Basculegion-M is under the microscope now; if you refer back to our previous np: Stage 4 thread you will notice that a number of users, including several DOU council members (Actuarily, myself, qsns, and Yoda for example) all recognized Basculegion-M as something worth watching with interest and provided detailed thoughts on whether or not it was perceived to be problematic at the time. Furthermore, it is worth noting that Basculegion was voted on in the final of three quickban slates that DOU Council held prior to OSDT starting.

The near-unanimous sentiment at the time was that, despite Basculegion's worrying attributes (Last Respects, Adaptability, Swift Swim) it seemed to be unproblematic in the meta. Perhaps because we (pardon the pun) had bigger fish to fry, and/or perhaps because the optimal teambuilds for Basculegion had yet to be built.

But times change. And with the conclusion of OSDT round 3, we now have a lot more data on how Basculegion plays out in practice in SV DOU and it is apparent to me that people's opinions on the mon have shifted.

GenOne's most recent opinions on Basculegion-M

I personally support initiating a suspect test on Basculegion-M and furthermore believe it is a good idea that should happen, but the onus would be on those wishing to challenge the status quo to convince me that I should actually vote to ban Basculegion-M; at this time I am watching the Pokemon with interest but am not persuaded yet that it is banworthy.

tl;dr:

1. I theorymon'd it'd be busted before Home dropped
2. it super duper underwhelmed my expectations when Home first dropped despite being a clear goodstuff mon, but
3. OSDT II r3 and onward I've seen enough evidence that I again think it deserves closer scrutiny and possibly a suspect test. in fact if the community in large is asking for a suspect I personally see 0 reason not to, even if my own vote on said suspect is TBD

OSDT III is a big tournament so being privy to the outcome of all 165 uses of Basculegion that have occurred within the first three rounds of OSDT is...not an easy thing to do. Especially for a humble fella like myself that works full-time during the week only to play catch-up on my evenings and weekends :) So suffice it to say, posts in this forum such as the ones above mine are super-duper helpful and appreciated!

But with all that being said, I did take the time tonight to quickly glance at all of the replays from OSDT round 3, as well as Basculegion's usage stats over the first few weeks.

Usage stats are not everything, but are at the very least interesting to be aware of and here's Basculegion's stats across the first three weeks:

Week	Pokemon	Rank	Use	Usage %	Win %
1	Basculegion	10	57	16.26%	61.40%
2	Basculegion	11	49	17.50%	53.06%
3	Basculegion	11	59	21.07%	54.24%

So yeah, although not quite as popular as Flutter Mane or Cresselia for example, Basculegion is in a similar spot of being a popular Pokemon with a consistently positive (above 50%) winrate.

For reference, here is the same breakdown for Flutter Mane and Cresselia:

Week	Pokemon	Rank	Use	Usage %	Win %
1	Flutter Mane	1	200	57.14%	56.00%
2	Flutter Mane	1	166	59.29%	51.33%
3	Flutter Mane	1	164	58.57%	52.44%
1	Cresselia	3	148	42.29%	62.16%
2	Cresselia	2	113	40.36%	51.33%
3	Cresselia	4	83	29.64%	50.60%

Flutter Mane has remained the most consistent of all of the above and has most notably been the #1 most-used Pokemon three weeks in a row now while still boasting a positive winrate. Basculegion has been picking up popularity week-over-week, and I will add as a qualitative anecdote re: OSDT week 3 that the majority of Basculegion's usage was in the 2-0 bracket. Cresselia's usage has been dropping week-over-week with a significant drop experienced in week 3.

But anyways!

Onto my brief observations of actual OSDT III replays where I was searching for games of Basculegion winning:

• The Adaptability and Swift Swim sets both saw widespread use to good success, although I anecdotally recall the Adaptability sets being a bit more common (probably due to the wider amount of team structures they are splashable on)
• Outside of a few specific replays, I can't say it was that common for me to observe that Basculegion was so overly broken that it was metagame warping to an otherwise competitive matchup; there are plenty of replays I watched where Basc simply didn't get into the right position at the right time to be its hypothetical OP menacing state when matched up versus pretty standard balanced or HO archetypes. In other words, the usage stats I cited earlier match up consistently with the outcomes I saw in the replays I watched; Basculegion is most certainly a good af mon with a few situationally unique attributes that can make it broken / destiny-defying under the right settings, but overall it seems to play out in most games as just a goodstuff that can be counterplayed in the right mu vs the right player.
• Some of the more interesting replays I watched in no particular order or ranking of relevance:
  • Z Strats vs ratpacker: even though Z Strats lost this is probably the strongest evidence I've seen of a strong AF Last Respects tilting the odds in the Basculegion user's favour; between turn 11 and 16 Basculegion reverses its team's 3-5 mu into a very close 2-1 engame solely by clicking strong Last Respects each turn
  • SuckyLucky vs. Ash KetchumGamer: best example I've seen this week in terms of an absurd Last Respects damage calc (see Turn 9): "The opposing Basculegion used Last Respects! It's not very effective... (Ting-Lu lost 81% of its health!)"
  • zee vs zoe: "adaptability choice band choice scarf (see: zee v zoe osdt r3 g3) can kill bulky neutral targets at just 2-3 boosts": The opposing Basculegion used Last Respects! (gym teacher [Rillaboom] lost 100% of its health!)
  • GenOne vs Teals: "swift swim sets on rain builds allow it to act as a devastating cleaner before foes can move (see: arcticblast rain)"

So my read of the room right now is Basculegion-M is generally accepted as a high-tier goodstuff mon that also situationally becomes an OP endgame menace due to Last Respects (150 bp Ghost-type STAB and higher is scarily strong but requires preserving Basculegion for the right moment to capitalize on).

In light of all this, I personally support initiating a suspect test on Basculegion-M and furthermore believe it is a good idea that should happen, but the onus would be on those wishing to challenge the status quo to convince me that I should actually vote to ban Basculegion-M; at this time I am watching the Pokemon with interest but am not persuaded yet that it is banworthy. Furthermore, and thefollowing are my opinions only, but: I do NOT think Last Respects is in the conversation due to nuances with how Tiering Policy rules work, furthermore I do not think Basculegion-F should be in the conversation until such a time as Basculegion-M is hypothetically removed.

My final thought is just that if you can link specific replays that showcase Basculegion at its worst that corroborate the stance that it should be banned, please do flag those and I promise I will watch them with interest and my full and undivided attention! :)

 

[zoe]

zee vs zoe: "adaptability choice band (see: zee v zoe osdt r3 g3) can kill bulky neutral targets at just 2-3 boosts": The opposing Basculegion used Last Respects! (gym teacher [Rillaboom] lost 100% of its health!)

hi, I appreciate how your post included our replay in your, but I must inform you I wasn't band, I was scarf.

ban basc

 

[Teals]

Alright, I will preface this by saying I will 100% be voting DNB on any impending Basc suspect, so this entire post is going to be in the same spirit. In general I am against banning pokemon, especially in our current meta where I believe Terastalization is the true culprit in making things feel skewed. So going forward with this post I won't be going into detail as to the exact reasons why I don't think Basculegion is broken as I will be sounding like a broken record. Instead I will be providing my thoughts on what a Basculegion ban will lead to which I believe to be far worse. Obviously this is unorthodox and not the greatest way to determine if something is ban worthy but I think it's interesting food for thought.

As it stands the current state of dou heavily favors bulky set up mons that can benefit from screens, tera out of weaknessess, and just sit on the field forever. See Memoric vs Givrix for example. Basculegion offers reliable counterplay to this with Last Respects. In comparison to Ursaluna which was also a nuke button, I think Legion is far more balanced. Ursaluna greatly fit into the mold of these fat teams, and had incredible synergy with mons like Cresselia. While you can make the argument that Legion can fit on most teams, I don't think it can do it incredibly well. Adaptability variants miss out on the speed, and are forced to run choice scarf in order to compensate for that. Even with choice scarf, things like Fluttermane naturally outspeed if Basc chooses to go adamant. It's also worth mentioning that Fluttermane is often seen with Booster Energy so scarf will not be 100% in fishe's favor even if it chooses to go jolly. If Legion chooses to run any other item it finds itself in an awkward speed tier where most things can outspeed it, especially when you take into account tailwind and trick room. It doesn't find itself in favorable positions if the opponent has a way to gain or even match speed control. This quirk carries over to the Swift Swim variants in the vein that opponents matching tailwind or setting trick room will put Legion into a very neutral state. Unlike Ursaluna, Basculegion is also very susceptible to priority in the form of Sucker Punch. Chien-Pao is a staple on HO, and Kingambit is a staple on Bulky Offense. Unless someone is willing to spend a team slot on Tsareena (which I only think is feasible on rain) your opponent will often have natural form of reliable counterplay. Now, I'd like to loop back around to the initial point made here. If Basculegion is banned, the tier will lose another way of handling the rise of "sit there for eternity" style of teams. SV has already had a history of being a tier that encourages teams of that style, and I think Legion offers enough pressure to dissuade people from committing fully to teams of that nature.


However, being a man of fairness, I'd like to point out that Last Respects as a move did get banned from the OU Metagame. While I would hate to see the move go as it would basically remove Legion from viability, I don't think the idea of banning the move should be completely off the table given how it was removed from the main Smogon Format.