What Aegislash seems to be is a power creep cap. It's holding back a lot of "true power" without being broken itself. If many mons didn't have to think about Aegislash, we would see another blatant power creep in OU. However, I don't really see this as anything other than opportunity cost. You CAN go all out and try to use mons that are restricted by aegi, but take care of aegi first. As I've seen in this suspect test so far, his presence holds back OU from being an allout power creep, even more than we saw at the beginning of this gen from megas and priority 120s TF. I see this as a plus. You have the option to run a more destructive set with pinsir to take care of skarmory/rotom-wash. However, you lose aegislash. It's a fair trade in that regard. Really, complaining about that isn't reasonable.
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np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition
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Taking quotes gives us a common ground to argue on instead of grasping at different definitions. I also never claimed my interpretations to be the word of God either. You are kinda acting like it does lol. It's called an interp for a reason
I formatted to it would read easier and so people can skip out on stuff they don't want to read.
Saying every Pokemon can be beat by an Aegi set is not only stretching the truth, but it also hypes the 4MSS which I talked about in my post.
Lol. So does Land-I/Lando-T (two very common Pokemon) carry Earth Power/EQ for just Aegi? No, they carry it because it hits steel.
Also, Zard Y (which is also common) doesn't carry Fire Blast for just Aegi. That was a major point in my post. As long as a team carries something to hit steels, it usually handles Aegi well. (and if your team can't hit steel types then I don't know what's up lol)
Alright, thanks for the heads up. I was attempting to use it as an answer to the argument "too many moves" and was not (intended) to be the sole roadblock of stopping the Aegi ban.
HBK
Subtlety is my middle name
It is for offensive and balanced teams. Slowbro, Mew and Cresselia concede too much momentum on offensive and some balanced teams whereas Aegislash slots in with relative ease, covering gaping weaknesses whilst posing a threat to the opponent. Mew and Cresselia aren't as popular as Slowbro (which isn't very popular to begin with) because they aren't much good apart from checking Medicham.
Personally, I think that King's Shield is more the problem than Aegislash itself. Without King's Shield, the user is forced to be more careful about attacking as once it's switched to attack stance, it can't switch back without switching out first meaning it can be knocked out by almost anything it doesn't resist because of it's terrible defensive stats once in blade forme.
Without King's Shield, Aegislash becomes much more counterable.
- Anything that isn't OHKO by Aegislash can generally OHKO back after Aegislash switches forms, Normal and Dark types in particular can easily switch into a Shadow Ball/Sneak and take it out before it gets to hit with SS due to it's terrible speed stat
- Priority can finish it off if the first attack doesn't OHKO
- Pursuit can take it out if it tries to switch out after it's attacked and swapped forms without having to worry about King's Shield countering it
- Status, especially burn can cripple it's effectiveness with Sneak/SS and allows it to be stalled out through passive damage
In short, I don't think Aegislash itself is broken, I think King's Shield is the tool it has access to that makes it broken as it allows it to play around with it's stats too easily and forces the opponent into too many guessing games to take it down with only Mandibuzz sticking out as a true counter due to it not caring about losses of attack power due to Foul Play, high defense and resistance to Ghost. Bisharp can work but it's a 50/50 prospect with SS able to take you out if you get caught with a King's Shield.
Without King's Shield, Aegislash becomes much more counterable.
- Anything that isn't OHKO by Aegislash can generally OHKO back after Aegislash switches forms, Normal and Dark types in particular can easily switch into a Shadow Ball/Sneak and take it out before it gets to hit with SS due to it's terrible speed stat
- Priority can finish it off if the first attack doesn't OHKO
- Pursuit can take it out if it tries to switch out after it's attacked and swapped forms without having to worry about King's Shield countering it
- Status, especially burn can cripple it's effectiveness with Sneak/SS and allows it to be stalled out through passive damage
In short, I don't think Aegislash itself is broken, I think King's Shield is the tool it has access to that makes it broken as it allows it to play around with it's stats too easily and forces the opponent into too many guessing games to take it down with only Mandibuzz sticking out as a true counter due to it not caring about losses of attack power due to Foul Play, high defense and resistance to Ghost. Bisharp can work but it's a 50/50 prospect with SS able to take you out if you get caught with a King's Shield.
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The Landos carry Earthquake because it's a strong STAB move. Zard-Y carries Fire Blast because it's a strong STAB move as well. The argument about carrying Earthquake on a Mon over other moves relates to stuff like Mega Heracross and Mega Pinsir who carry it as a mandatory coverage move so they don't get walled by Aegislash. You shouldn't mistake a move carried for pure damage output for one used for coverage. Further, when you have to carry a move that provides less total coverage just to be able to hit 1 mon, that is a sign of potentially unhealthy centralization.Geopolitics said:
Let me say what I've said plenty already: If Mega Pinsir and Heracross aren't carrying EQ to smash Rock and Fire types which threaten them already, they're doing something wrong. Oftentimes, EQ is covering other types but can also cover Aegi as an added bonus rather than as the sole purpose.
Why is it so bad that when teambuilding with mega pinsir, you have to choose between countering aegislash or countering skarm and rotom wash? Would you rather mega pinsir be able to rampage though everything? You're not forced to run EQ, you could also run CC and use pinsir to clean up the game after you've killed the Aegislash (provided they have one, which is 17% of the time).
HBK
Subtlety is my middle name
Most of the pokemon who run Earthquake in OU do so not out of fear of Aegislash but because it is a strong move with good coverage and some even get STAB on it. Yes, pokemon like Terrakion and Heracross carry it for the sole purpose of being able to 2HKO Aegislash but it's not necessary for them to do so; Bisharp or Chople Berry Tyranitar can get rid of it or it can just be worn down or KO'ed by other team members for them to sweep. And Earthquake isn't completely useless to them outside of hitting Aegislash; Heracross can hit incoming Fairies/Mawile for neutral/Super Effective damage amd Terrakion can KO things like Heatran, Tyranitar and Bisharp without lowering it's defenses thus making it vulnerable to priority or risking a Stone Edge miss. Pokemon like Garchomp, Landorus-T, Gliscor, Tyranitar, Dragonite, Charizard, Latios, etc. run it because they either get STAB or good coverage in general.
Lol, what? Were Aegislash to be banned, Close Combat would probably become the main coverage move on Mega Pinsir. Lowering your defenses is hardly a huge price to pay for an offensive Pokemon that shouldn't be trying to take many hits anyway. Being able to actually really hurt Rotom-W and Skarmory at +2 is a pretty big deal. Close Combat hits both of them ~21% harder than a +2 Return, which means you have to put significantly less effort into wearing them down before you can KO. For instance, 252/252+ Rotom-W only needs to be brought down to around 3/4 of its health before it's guaranteed to die to a +2 Close Combat if it switches into Stealth Rock as Mega Pinsir boosts, which isn't that hard when Rotom-W lacks a reliable recovery move. Skarmory is a tougher cookie, but the fact that Mega Pinsir can now KO with +2 Return followed by Close Combat puts Skarmory under a lot of pressure, especially since Brave Bird fails to KO in return and Counter variants risk letting Mega Pinsir set up another Swords Dance. You keep mentioning Rocks and Fires, but which ones do you need Earthquake for, exactly? There are literally only two Rocks in OU right now, Terrakion and Tyranitar, and your matchup against them does not change depending on whether you run Close Combat or Earthquake. There are only 3 Fires (4 if you count the Mega Charizards individually); of them, Mega Charizard Y and Talonflame are immune to Earthquake, Mega Charizard X is already hit ~99.5% as hard by an Aerilate Return as it is by Earthquake, and Heatran is already OHKOed by a +2 Close Combat (unless it has a Chople Berry, lol).
I've already explained Mega Pinsir. Mega Heracross already destroys Rocks with a STAB Close Combat or Bullet Seed, and Pin Missile even destroys Tyranitar. It also demolishes the Mega Charizards and Talonflame with Rock Blast, and Heatran gets destroyed by Close Combat as well. Aegislash is the single greatest reason that Mega Heracross even runs Earthquake as pretty much everything else it hits can already be hit by one of Mega Heracross's other moves. Picking coverage moves is a lot more than just hitting Pokemon whose STABs are super effective against you. Just saying "You need Earthquake for Rocks and Fires!" means nothing if the Pokemon already hits all relevant Rocks and Fires hard enough or even harder as it is.
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I've had to delete way too much posts. The next post I see that claims 'X mon will be broken if Aegislash leaves' is earning a 2 point infraction because it is largely irrelevant. If (for instance), Aegislash is banned and if (say), Mega Absol becomes the next big thing, then we remove that from the metagame as well. The anti ban argument "but it keeps other mons in check" does not really apply in this circumstance.
If Aegislash is literally the only thing holding back Mega Pinsir, Mega Medicham, Mega Heracross, etc., that is a problem. People should not have to be forced to run Aegislash to beat these threats. As it has been discussed many times, checking other potentially broken Pokemon is not a reason to keep a broken Pokemon in OU. If you don't mind broken Pokemon checking other broken Pokemon, play Ubers. Unfortunately, Game Freak dumped a shitload of insanely powerful threats on us this generation, and a large banlist may be necessary to compensate and balance things out in OU. If banning Aegi means other threats have to go too, so be it.
Edit: Sorry ginganinja , I didn't see your post until after I posted.
The problem with this, ginganinja, is that the next big metagame shift will happen before we're done getting through all the "and now we have to ban X", JUST LIKE what happened last gen where there wasn't enough time to suspect test all the crap that kept causing problems because of how that metagame was handled. Why is that problem not worth considering?
All I said was that Aegislash is the only reason a bunch of mons (meaning mons that don't want to run it for coverage, because they'd prefer something else. C'mon what the heck, man?) are using Earthquake.
-Earthquake on Pinsir is only used over Close Combat for hitting Aegislash, this cannot be argued.
-Earthquake on Terrakion is largely because of Aegislash (inb4 the omnipresence of Nidoqueen and Golurk).
-It's a major reason Mega Tyranitar is using Earthquake, it could also make use of other moves in that slot.
-DD Dragonite uses EQ mostly because of Aegislash, it preferred Fire Punch last gen and still does (dealing with Heatran is a lot easier than dealing with Aegislash).
-Same with Scolipede's EQ.
-EQ on Chesnaught is kinda sorta a thing too.
-Mega Heracross? Yup. Same as Pinsir. You said something about it hitting Fairies? Tell me what it doesn't hit harder with Rock Blast. Oh, Mawile? That takes roughly 90-100% from Close Combat, so not like you'll be tanking a hit.
-Lucario. While it isn't that popular, it also commonly uses EQ for Aeg.
-Latios is often seen with the move too, and while it isn't only hitting Aeg with it, it's still a major factor in Latios's move choice.
-Earthquake on Terrakion is largely because of Aegislash (inb4 the omnipresence of Nidoqueen and Golurk).
-It's a major reason Mega Tyranitar is using Earthquake, it could also make use of other moves in that slot.
-DD Dragonite uses EQ mostly because of Aegislash, it preferred Fire Punch last gen and still does (dealing with Heatran is a lot easier than dealing with Aegislash).
-Same with Scolipede's EQ.
-EQ on Chesnaught is kinda sorta a thing too.
-Mega Heracross? Yup. Same as Pinsir. You said something about it hitting Fairies? Tell me what it doesn't hit harder with Rock Blast. Oh, Mawile? That takes roughly 90-100% from Close Combat, so not like you'll be tanking a hit.
-Lucario. While it isn't that popular, it also commonly uses EQ for Aeg.
-Latios is often seen with the move too, and while it isn't only hitting Aeg with it, it's still a major factor in Latios's move choice.
Edit in response to the post below: A couple more things, HBK, and then I'll be off:
1. Where did I say it was over centralizing?
2. What team can afford to to give Aegislash free switch ins? Keep in mind that these mons that are using their coverage for Aegislash are offensive in nature, and in the majority of cases, so are the teams that they are being used on.
Edit in response to The Shortest Path: Name me another mon that shifts the metagame in such a way that a significant portion of offensive mons are using a move slot solely for it.
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HBK
Subtlety is my middle name
Lots of Pokemon in ADV carry Hidden Power Grass for the sole purpose of eliminating Swampert; does that mean that it's over centralizing? It is your choice as a team builder to choose a move that will deal with one threat at the cost of failing to deal with another. Like I said, it's not necessary for them to run Earthquake unless you don't have specific team members/a strategy to nullify Aegislash.
You're actually trying to argue that Aegislash "forces" pokemon to use one of the best physical attacking moves in the game?
Picking a move that deals with one threat as opposed to picking another move to deal with a different threat is part of teambuilding. Of course you have to make difficult choices, if one pokemon could deal with every possible threat with one set it would be overpowered.
I'm sorry I didn't have time to look through the flood of posts till now but I'll just put in my two cents on something I feel is not being considered completely. Yes, Aegislash has great stats, amazing typing, and amazing unresisted coverage in mixed Ghost/Fighting while being able to run various other sets while forcing 50-50s. And yes, it does have certain checks that can switch into it and take it on 1v1 as long as they avoid the coverage moves. This by itself could even be considered to an extent acceptable because there are many other offensive Pokemon with good coverage. Why is Aegi any different you ask? Because unlike other frail offensive mons, it can risk making those coverage predicts. When an Aegislash is up against something like Lati@s which can barely scratch it, or anything else that doesn't hit it super effectively for that matter, what does it lose by going for the Sacred Sword to nail the Bisharp switch? Or Head Smash for the Mandi switch? It loses next to nothing and even experienced players are forced to make such switches because they don't want to risk anything else being hit by Shadow Ball. Apart from Specially Defensive Gliscor, nothing can really be called a solid check to Aegislash, and I foresee that if Aegi continues in the meta we'll probably start seeing quite a few HP Ice sets too. Apart from all the obvious reasons why it's ridiculously strong, I just wanted to reinforce the point of how that once it comes into something it's comfortable against, there's an unhealthy amount of difficulty for the opponent to come out unscathed.
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In ADV there was something on the order of thirty pokemon that actually mattered in some way. You can nit pick that number, but point is that this is not ADV or GSC/RBY where things were allowed to be centralizing cause there's so few good pokemon. This is XY. The pool of viable pokemon is very, very large compared to previous gens and the power level is way higher. Using HP Grass to deal with Swampert didn't have as much of a cost, and furthermore the consequence of not having HP Grass would probably be lower than giving Aegislash a free turn (iunno I've never played ADV extensively.)
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Earthquake is a completely redundant coverage move on most fighting types other than for hitting Aegislash. The only types that you miss out on are electric and poison, which are generally frail or rare enough for it not to matter. Earthquake is really not as great of a move as you're saying it is, with all the flying types and levitating pokemon in the tier.
I honestly dislike having to waste a moveslot to cover a single pokemon, and even though the medigame has adapted to aegislash so heavily, it still continues to be arguably the best Pokemon on the metagame. Its not hard to see why. Few Pokemon are capable of OHKOing it and It can beat most pokemon one-on-one. Even Pokemon with SE STAB cant beat it head on Aegislash is capable surviving an Excadrill's EQ and then KOing back with a combo of Sacred Sword + then it just retreats behind Kings Shield, which at times doesnt even force 50-50's because its such a ridiculously safe play
Rotosect
Banned deucer.
The cost of running HP Grass was not being able to run HP Ice, therefore sacrificing coverage and letting things like Salamence switch in for free.
Aegi has had a lot argument going back and forth this whole time.
People want to ban aegi cause it can get around potential counters and checks by running different set it's great stats, exceptional coverage and access to a move that makes oppenents squirm.
The people who don't want to ban aegis brought up the power cap it provides (which we aren't allowed to talk about anymore). It's numerous checks on every team and the ability to get around the annoying kings shield.
This suspect test can go either way right now and I'm not sure how the meta will fare after aegis is gone for better or for worse. This ban could have healthy or unhealthy affects on the meta I'm not sure what xy ou will look for the next few months before ORAS comes out. Tbh this ban is less of a necessity as the deo or baton pass ban but really depends on what kind of meta we as a community desire.
Aegi is a metagame shaping force but so are other pokemon introduced in xy talonflame and the mega evolutions we see on most teams. As well as the mechanic changes introduced this gen such as the steel nerf and weather nerf. These mechanic changes have made the game much enjoyable than BW ou and mega evolution have made many more pokemon ou viable sure there are annoying things like talonflame and aegislash introduced this gen but we have adapted to them and build teams to handle these new threats.
This meta is way more diverse than something like black white. I think aegis contributes and hinders this versatility. I mean the sheer number of aegis checks give some mons like chesnaught and amoongus some good niches. Unfortunately the presence of aegis has reduced the number of viable rapid spinners in ou as well as destroy must psychic types viability (which is not just aegis fault tbh knock off spam is annoying). Overall I find this meta much more diverse in the kind of teams u face as well as the individual pokes u find on every team. Sure former ou all stars like starmie, jirachi, and celebi have fallen but overall more pokes are able to be used in ou and it is much better than something like BW where weather was omnipresent and every team needed a few slots dedicated to stopping it whether I be their own weather setter and few a mons that can take the weather boosted attacks. Overall xy is much more enjoyably to BW. These two being the only competitive metas I played .
I personally right now am leaning to keep aegis. As I personally like where he sits in the tier and have already stated my reasons. Every team I personally made has like two or three aegis counters or checks. This often depends on the set it runs. The set it is running is deciphered after a few moves by aegis and therefore it is pretty easy to scout for. I find aegi to be similar to the weather in BW. It is metagame defining and u do need a few checks to it (as well as bird spam another xy ou defining playstyle). We did not ban weather in BW ou even if it effected the viability of certain things and over centralized the meta to a point much worse than what aegi is currently doing. There will always be a poke, mechanic or playstyle that defines a meta and players have to prepare for them.
People want to ban aegi cause it can get around potential counters and checks by running different set it's great stats, exceptional coverage and access to a move that makes oppenents squirm.
The people who don't want to ban aegis brought up the power cap it provides (which we aren't allowed to talk about anymore). It's numerous checks on every team and the ability to get around the annoying kings shield.
This suspect test can go either way right now and I'm not sure how the meta will fare after aegis is gone for better or for worse. This ban could have healthy or unhealthy affects on the meta I'm not sure what xy ou will look for the next few months before ORAS comes out. Tbh this ban is less of a necessity as the deo or baton pass ban but really depends on what kind of meta we as a community desire.
Aegi is a metagame shaping force but so are other pokemon introduced in xy talonflame and the mega evolutions we see on most teams. As well as the mechanic changes introduced this gen such as the steel nerf and weather nerf. These mechanic changes have made the game much enjoyable than BW ou and mega evolution have made many more pokemon ou viable sure there are annoying things like talonflame and aegislash introduced this gen but we have adapted to them and build teams to handle these new threats.
This meta is way more diverse than something like black white. I think aegis contributes and hinders this versatility. I mean the sheer number of aegis checks give some mons like chesnaught and amoongus some good niches. Unfortunately the presence of aegis has reduced the number of viable rapid spinners in ou as well as destroy must psychic types viability (which is not just aegis fault tbh knock off spam is annoying). Overall I find this meta much more diverse in the kind of teams u face as well as the individual pokes u find on every team. Sure former ou all stars like starmie, jirachi, and celebi have fallen but overall more pokes are able to be used in ou and it is much better than something like BW where weather was omnipresent and every team needed a few slots dedicated to stopping it whether I be their own weather setter and few a mons that can take the weather boosted attacks. Overall xy is much more enjoyably to BW. These two being the only competitive metas I played .
I personally right now am leaning to keep aegis. As I personally like where he sits in the tier and have already stated my reasons. Every team I personally made has like two or three aegis counters or checks. This often depends on the set it runs. The set it is running is deciphered after a few moves by aegis and therefore it is pretty easy to scout for. I find aegi to be similar to the weather in BW. It is metagame defining and u do need a few checks to it (as well as bird spam another xy ou defining playstyle). We did not ban weather in BW ou even if it effected the viability of certain things and over centralized the meta to a point much worse than what aegi is currently doing. There will always be a poke, mechanic or playstyle that defines a meta and players have to prepare for them.
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Not really. The pokes that needed hp grass the most were probably electrics, which could hit salamence hard with stab tbolt
pls dont talk about adv if you dont know it my eyes are bleeding. i wont get into a debate here as its not the place and haunter is an evil italian spaghetti enthusiast who would infract me off the face of the planet if i did. however i will say that running hp grass is hardly "not a big deal" and electrics dont always run it over ice because sometimes the team theyre on requires them to hit celebi/flygon rather than pert. i will also say that electrics are hardly the most common user of hp grass, in fact i see metagross/ttar/mence using them a lot more than zapdos...
on topic! aegislash is fucking retarded. it has 4 stats equivalent to kyogres spatk and one of its 2 mediocre stats works in its favor as 99% of the time it will shrug off whatever hit with those monstrous defenses and hit back with equally ridiculous offenses which makes it stupidly hard to deal with. ive been watching a lot of wcop battles and it is just powerful to the point of absurdity. played a few matches on suspect ladder and not seeing aegis has been a blessing, in fact outside of a few mons that are as bad as aegis (zardx mawile thundurus), i actually enjoyed a few of the games i played. with a few more bans this meta should become good and it looks like we are on the way there excellent work fellows!!!
on topic! aegislash is fucking retarded. it has 4 stats equivalent to kyogres spatk and one of its 2 mediocre stats works in its favor as 99% of the time it will shrug off whatever hit with those monstrous defenses and hit back with equally ridiculous offenses which makes it stupidly hard to deal with. ive been watching a lot of wcop battles and it is just powerful to the point of absurdity. played a few matches on suspect ladder and not seeing aegis has been a blessing, in fact outside of a few mons that are as bad as aegis (zardx mawile thundurus), i actually enjoyed a few of the games i played. with a few more bans this meta should become good and it looks like we are on the way there excellent work fellows!!!
I'm not convinced the 'forced into particular coverage' argument works. Imagine for a moment that there are two very powerful pokemon in the metagame who combined comprise Aegislash's usage (what was it, 17%?) and basically require Earthquake coverage on offensive mons to be dealt with. We wouldn't ban both of them to free up those slots, we'd probably consider them healthy. If there were fifty such pokemon who comprised this usage you might call it 'Aegislash-Type' and prepare your sweepers to deal with it. The fact that the impetus for EQ's prevalence is concentrated in one sprite rather than two shouldn't matter; it's just a fact of the metagame that pokemon have to account for.
Furthermore (TFL I know your stance is not as vitriolic and immovable as others, I'm just using it because it's the only eloquent demonstration of the 'niche coverage' side of the argument), I am not seeing any objective argument as to why these pokemon should be entitled to more optimal coverage. In what way does letting Mega Pinsir run Close Combat improve the metagame to such an extent that we should *ban a pokemon* to make it happen? In what way is Earthquake so debilitating a concession for its carriers to make that in Aegislash-free matchups they find themselves pulling no weight? (this was a major concern with BP counters, which were niche to the point of ineffectuality outside that matchup.) We complain that Aegislash demands pokemon go out of their way to deal with it, but they DO deal with it, with collateral that borders on negligible and which no one has proven bad enough to ban a pokemon over (no, letting pinsir 2HKO skarmory is never going to convince me Aegislash has to go lol what the fuck)
Of course what we'll hear next is that it's this forcing of coverage ON TOP of all the other things Aegislash does which makes it broken. That other stuff is well and good, and I'd be glad to entertain more arguments in that vein. But the coverage argument strikes me as so weak that it should be discounted altogether, unless someone can prove to me objectively that Mega Heracross not being able to run Close Combat is unhealthy for the metagame.
As far as the broken shit countering broken shit thing, well, that's a complicated topic I'm sad to see dismissed so firmly. It'd be great if "broken shit" were as precise a designation as some tiering leaders make it sound. What we have, however, is a metagame in which brokenness is 100% relative. The tiering process wants to identify pokemon that are broken independent of all other metagame elements, and this is seemingly obviously impossible since one pokemon's "brokenness" is directly related to how well other pokemon in the tier can deal with it, and because these powerful pokemon help deal with other powerful ones every eviction from the metagame kind of tautologically MAKES other pokemon broken which weren't before (no, not all broken pokemon are simply 'present' in the metagame throughout all suspect processes, which seems to be a prevailing banning mentality). This is a MAJOR reason to be extremely cautious and deliberate about suspecting. That there is any controversy at all about Aegislash suggests that it should stay, at least for now.
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