On The Radar Vol. 2 [See Post #336]

[BigDaddyPhatSack]

A counter is something that can reliably and consistently switch in on a pokemon, shut it down, and force it out. Grimmsnarl can't do this as even max defense gets 2HKO'ed by Scarf Icicle Crash:

+1 252 Atk Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Grimmsnarl: 207-244 (52.5 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Things like this sound good on paper, but the reality that will occur in a match is you'll very likely be staring down Darm with something that can't afford to take an Icicle Crash - and directly switching in Grimmsnarl is something you'll only be able to do once. And because this is the case, Darm is free to get big damage on the rest of your team while the best you can do is bring in Grimmsnarl in as a response after the fact - at which point Darm will switch out and repeat. It's a situational check that can be effective for sure, but not a consistent or reliable defense against it which is the big problem here.

Which is why Trick is so useful in Grimmsnarl's toolkit. If you take away his items and then switch next turn, then you remove the biggest part of his threat (double choice by design) and then still have half a grimmsnarl to impede something else. The only caveat to my idea is that Grimm has to either already be out when Darm switches in, or something chips at Darm before dying so Grimm gets a good switch in. It's not perfect, but it's a way to mitigate the problem.

 

[viol and bass]

Why is that? I was looking in Policy Review for anything about banning abilities and couldn't find much. If I had to guess, it's because most abilities that cause problems on certain mons are healthy on others and would cause collateral damage with a ban, which isn't the case with Darm. If there's another reason for not banning abilities, what is it?

Banlist simplicity is the reason that's usually given. You often hear "we ban whole Pokemon, not parts of Pokemon". Slippery slope arguments and all that ("Rayquaza isn't broken if it can't use EVs or Dragon Ascent or V-Create" or whatever).

 

[Gravelmouse]

Which is why Trick is so useful in Grimmsnarl's toolkit. If you take away his items and then switch next turn, then you remove his biggest part of threat (double choice by design) and then still have half a grimmsnarl to impede something else. The only caveat to my idea is that Grimm has to either already be out when Darm switches in, or something chips at Darm before dying so Grimm gets a good switch in. It's not perfect, but it's a way to mitigate the problem.

Except the darm can just switch out? you send in grimmsnarl, take 90%, then the darm switches out, fearing Twave, and you basicaly just sacked a pokemon. There are dozens of niche weird things you can do, but honestly, if you are going to use weird tech to counter darm, use something thats actually viable lmfao, like scarf cinderace

 

[myowngamertag]

Pretty surprised to see people wanting G-Darm to get quickbanned
We did a suspect for Dynamax which was much much more obviously broken than Darm and a suspect for Darm is gonna take like what, two weeks? Two weeks out of about 3 or so years of this gen's life competitively speaking? I think it is worth it to do a suspect even though I think Darm is probably going to get banned. I think a lot of people have already made up their minds about it which is a shame because I actually think Darm is sort of borderline. I'm leaning toward ban but I don't think Darm is the most broken mon to ever hit the metagame. I'd like to see the no-ban arguments from players who are able to make reqs.

Also, while I understand the argument against just banning Gorilla Tactics I do think that approach should be considered. Zen-Darm is much more manageable and easier to play around when you aren't playing around Gorilla Tactics. (ever switch to a scarf darm switch-in just to watch this dude get a free belly drum?) People draw comparisons to Huge Power and in a vacuum yeah Huge Power is undeniably better than GT but Gamefreak obviously does not consider Gorilla Tactics to require the same balancing Huge Power has. I doubt Gamefreak will ever make a mon with that has more than 80 base attack and multiple abilities which include Huge Power. Hell even Pokemon that only have Huge Power as an ability max out at 105 base attack and that's only on megas. But they gave GT to Darm who has 140 base attack. Clearly they consider the ability to be balanced in comparison to Huge Power (it isn't obviously) but ok. Darm is the only mon who can use GT (and it's the only thing that makes him truly broken)
Also, "we didn't ban abilities like this in the past" is a pretty fatalistic mentality. We have the ability to balance this game beyond what we were just given in the game and it's pretty frustrating how much Smogon is prone to holding itself back with very arbitrary and philosophical restrictions. These games are complicated and we already don't have a 100% set-in-stone policy regarding bans and clauses (which I think would be a terrible idea by the way). For better or worse all of this stuff gets looked at on a case-by-case basis and I think we should embrace that.

To be fair, Dynamax was the central mechanic for Gen 8. Even if it was so blatantly broken and the majority of people wanted it gone, I feel it was owed a suspect test solely for the fact that removing it would drastically change the paradigm for competitive play this generation.

Darmanitan is just a single stupidly powerful mon, there's been plenty like him in generations prior and there will be more to come in future games.

 

[Finchinator]

Grimmsnarl is not a check or counter to G-Darmanitan. It loses the 1v1 handily; any Pokemon with Prankster can cripple anything, but Grimmsnarl does not handle G-Darmanitan defensively and if you have to fodder something off just to cripple G-Darmanitan, then you are proving the pro-ban side's point. Stop making this poor argument and stop derailing the thread by responding to it.

 

[Gravelmouse]

Seeing people suggesting banning Gorilla Tactics instead of tackling Darmanitan itself may seem a bit off due to the Blaziken Precident; but it's different from Blaziken. Put simply; Blaziken is the wrong example to be bringing up regarding Darm/Gorilla Tactics.

Examples:

1: Blaziken/Speed Boost. Only Blaziken was broken with Speed Boost. Yanemega, Ninjask; Combusken and so on were not broken with Speed Boost. This means the problem is not Speed Boost, but Blaziken. Since Blaziken is the only issue, a complex ban [Blaziken+Speed Boost] is also not a viable option. Banning the ability is the wrong move since the ability itself has other users which are not broken.

2: Sand Veil. Breaks Evasion Clause and is uncompetitive. It has the potential to break any pokemon with it with enough luck. This also wasn't done until every Sand Veil pokemon had a legal alternative ability.

3: Moody - Actually was broken on everything that got it. There were records of Bidoof sweeping Ubers. In this case; the ability ban is obviously the right choice.

Darmanitan fits none of these. Darmanitan is the only user of Gorillia Tactics. Thus; a case can be made to ban Gorillia Tactics. Unlike Blaziken, where there were other Speed Boost users; this isn't the case with Darm.

Furthermore; in Gen 5 we had Drizzle suspected like 3 times. Despite it being an ability unique to Politoad in OU [Kyogre had it too but that was Uber already]

We did not try and ban Politoad; we tried to ban Drizzle.

This could justify a Gorilla Tactics ban, as we have the Politoad/Drizzle precedent when it comes to an ability only on one pokemon. Although you could also argue that Drizzle never got banned in Gen 5, so there isn't a precedent actually set.

If Darumaka got Gorillia Tactics; then it's clear-cut; suspect Darmanitan. But Darumaka dosen't get it.

This articulates what I feel super well, and this allows a very cool and interesting pokemon, Zen mode darm, to shine. This is a unique opportunity that we should jump on, unlike blaziken, because GT is an exclusive ability, meaning banning it can allow us to save zen mode darmanitan!

 

[Yung Dramps]

Banlist simplicity is the reason that's usually given. You often hear "we ban whole Pokemon, not parts of Pokemon". Slippery slope arguments and all that ("Rayquaza isn't broken if it can't use EVs or Dragon Ascent or V-Create" or whatever).

While banning whole Pokemon over parts of them is usually something we try to adhere to, I think it's been established over several tiering decisions by now that abilities are a special case. Going back to Shadow Tag, we could've banned the Gothitelle and Wobbuffet lines, but we chose not to because it was obvious that their ability was the root of the problem and without it these two Pokemon are actually quite terrible.

Galarian Darmanitan is a similar case. It is obvious that all of its problems stem from Gorilla Tactics, and without it would become much more manageable except by banning the Pokemon itself we also get rid of an interesting Zen Mode sweeper good against bulky teams that might actually be worth preserving over Tagless Gothitelle and Wobbuffet. We lose out on more possibilities by banning Darmanitan itself than we do just disposing of Gorilla Tactics, which is the opposite situation of any previous Pokemon like Blaziken whose abilities pushed them over the edge with the exception of trappers.

 

[qways]

Gorilla Tactics is not a broken ability and therefor shouldnt be banned. Im not sure why some peope, say its irrelevant that huge power is much better without drawbacks. Even abilities like tough claws or adaptability migth be better since they dont give a choice lock. There are better abilities on weaker mons and those mons dont restrict team building. Gorilla Tactics doesnt introduce any uncompetetive mechanics.
Diggersby isnt broken with huge power and wouldnt be broken with gorilla Tactics. Gdarm migth be broken with Gorillatactics and would be broken with huge power. Either make a complex ban ala Gdarm + gorilla Tactics - which im against. Or suspect Gdarm.

While banning whole Pokemon over parts of them is usually something we try to adhere to, I think it's been established over several tiering decisions by now that abilities are a special case. Going back to Shadow Tag, we could've banned the Gothitelle and Wobbuffet lines, but we chose not to because it was obvious that their ability was the root of the problem and without it these two Pokemon are actually quite terrible.

Galarian Darmanitan is a similar case.

Its not similar!!! Restricting Switching was seen as uncompetetive! Boosting the attack stat is not uncompetetive!

 

[Gravelmouse]

Gorilla Tactics is not a broken ability and therefor shouldnt be banned. Im not sure why some peope, say its irrelevant that huge power is much better without drawbacks. Even abilities like tough claws or adaptability migth be better since they dont give a choice lock. There are better abilities on weaker mons and those mons dont restrict team building. Gorilla Tactics doesnt introduce any uncompetetive mechanics.
Diggersby isnt broken with huge power and wouldnt be broken with gorilla Tactics. Gdarm migth be broken with Gorillatactics and would be broken with huge power. Either make a complex ban ala Gdarm + gorilla Tactics - which im against. Or suspect Gdarm.

You're really missing the point. Gorilla tactics is ONLY on darmanitan, and makes darmanitan unhealthy for the tier. Therefore, EVERY SINGLE POKEMON that has GT is made broken by it. And if EVERY SINGLE POKEMON that has GT is made unhealthy for OU, then OU should ban the ability. If darm had huge power, we would ban darm, because other pokemon with huge power like diggersby are not broken. But since one again, ONLY DARM has the ability, you can ban the ability, and what this accomplishes, is saving zen mode darm.

 

[Empress Mobile]

I don't feel super strongly about banning the mon or the ability, but I do wish that the argument of "diverse strategies" would stop being used, as it doesn't inherently improve gameplay at all. We saw in the last gen and the one before that having too many strategies to prepare for means most top level games will be decided at team preview, with teams unable to properly prepare for them. Honestly a BD sweeper with a ridiculous speed tier seems like it'd be one of the most matchup reliant options you could add to the tier. At first glance I'd rather just ban the whole mon given the problems we had the last 2 generations. But if we're gonna keep Zen G Darm, it'd be better to see how its presence actually improves the metagame rather than just diversifying it. Dynamax added a ton of diversity, but it was terrible.

 

[Gravelmouse]

Either make a complex ban ala Gdarm + gorilla Tactics - which im against.

I'm baffled, honestly. Why would there be a complex ban? Its just silly, its the only pokemon that gets it, who are we keeping the ability?

That would be like keeping power construct, but banning it when used with zygard.

 

[Finchinator]

The level of discussion regarding banning the banning of the ability vs the banning of the Pokemon is abysmal. The council understands the arguments and will decide accordingly if and when something is done. The main point of this thread right now is to determine if there is a problem and how it should be handled (suspect, quickban, or nothing -- not how through what should be banned); let's stick to that please.

 

[MANNAT]

Frankly, I don't really see this is as a discussion of Galarian Darmanitan's brokenness at all, as it's been clear since the very start of the metagame that it's problematic. The way I see it, this is more of a discussion of the nuances of a potential ban than anything else. The main argument here seems to be whether to quickban or suspect test Galarian Darmanitan.

A quickban is the best solution to our issue due to current time constraints. First and foremost, it's the most convenient option timing wise with regards to our tournaments, as SPL and OST are starting soon and it maximizes the time we have to adjust to the new metagame. Similar to the first point raised by reyscarface in this thread, the test would be a formality at this point, and it would frankly be a waste of time to suspect it.

 

[Master B8s]

While the main problem children in the room (Garm and the Fish). Dynamax was banned a few days ago. These guys might not have abused the mechanic as much as others, but I would rather let the metagame settle before rushing into another ban given how warping dynamax was on the metagame. If anything I support a suspect test for either one of these guys, but to jump on a quick ban this early into a developing metagame seems hasty.

 

[Gravelmouse]

Frankly, I don't really see this is as a discussion of Galarian Darmanitan's brokenness at all, as it's been clear since the very start of the metagame that it's problematic. The way I see it, this is more of a discussion of the nuances of a potential ban than anything else. From the thread thus far, the two main points seem to be the following:

• Whether or not we quickban or suspect test Galarian Darmanitan
• Whether we want to ban Galarian Darmanitan or Gorilla Tactics

Regarding the first point, I think that a quickban would be the best solution to our issue due to time constraints. First and foremost, it's the most convenient option timing wise with regards to our tournaments, as SPL and OST are starting soon and it maximizes the time we have to adjust to the new metagame. Similar to the first point raised by reyscarface in this thread, the test would be a formality at this point, and it would frankly be a waste of time to suspect it.

The second point is a bit more difficult based on your personal policy beliefs and I wouldn't be opposed to either option in particular. I'd personally prefer banning Gorilla Tactics to limit collateral damage because it's still a great mon even without Gorilla Tactics and I'd prefer to keep it around. However, as shown in this thread by Zarel in this thread, it's preferred to ban individual Pokemon rather than abilities due to the banlists simplicity and accessibility for newer players, as ability bans don't show up in the teambuilder until you try to verify the team.

I was not aware of any time constraints, but knowing that now, I'm slightly less opposed to a QB, keeping a more stable environment for the largest tours on the site seem important, and it could always be suspected back in. I still think a suspect test is the better option, if it can be done in time for SPL and OST

 

[Empress Mobile]

While the main problem children in the room (Garm and the Fish). Dynamax was banned a few days ago. These guys might not have abused the mechanic as much as others, but I would rather let the metagame settle before rushing into another ban given how warping dynamax was on the metagame. If anything I support a suspect test for either one of these guys, but to jump on a quick ban this early into a developing metagame seems hasty.

Quickbans at this stage of the metagame are actually quite common, since it is when the most blatantly broken elements present themselves. They also allow the metagame to settle more quickly in time for official tournaments and for usage stats to stabilize. Given SPL and the fact that we'll want the next usage stats to be reflective of long term staples rather than just checks to G Darm and Dracovish, I'd fully support a quickban. General opinion seems to be overwhelming to one side and hasn't really changed much.

 

[myowngamertag]

The best way to alleviate the teambuilding simplicity and tiering issue would to make Gorilla Tactics unusuable on Galarian Darm in teambuilder if you're making him under the OU format. The argument that newer players dislike the complex bans is kinda silly, considering we already have stuff like Sleep Clause and no OHKO moves that new players need to know about. Just because banning Darm overall is the easier/simpler path to go down doesn't mean it's the right one.

I also dislike the comparison to Huge Power, as that ability is often reserved for mons with otherwise subpar/middling base attack stats. Mega Medicham and Mega Mawile still only have decent 100 and 105 base power respectively after sacrificing their item slot for a Mega Stone in order to hit like a truck compared to Gorilla Tactics boosting a 140 base attack stat and still allowing you the option of running Scarf/Band on top of that.

 

[Rarycaris]

The thing is, it's not Gorilla Tactics that's inherently broken.

I don't mean to single you out here -- you just happened to make the first post on this.

The thing about signature abilities, especially ones which are not the Pokemon's only ability, is that you can't as easily separate the broken user from the broken ability. Shadow Tag is broken, but it wouldn't be broken on a 30BST Pokemon which only learns Splash. It is, however, broken on multiple users, to the degree that it benefits the metagame to remove the single common broken element.

I would argue that it's the same deal here -- the question's practical effect, however we formulate it, is "do we want to ban Zen Mode Galarian Darmanitan or not?". It seems bizarre to me that the answer to that question changes depending on how it is phrased, even if its actual semantic content doesn't change. Addressing the question directly, I see nothing to suggest that Zen Mode Darmanitan-G is broken. Crucially, banning Gorilla Tactics instead of Darmanitan is not a complex ban in the same way that, say "no Speed Boost on Blaziken" would be. Gorilla Tactics plus Darmanitan can be perceived as a complex ban, but in practice it isn't because it's the same as "ban Gorilla Tactics". I contend that any complex ban capable of being expressed as a simple ban is not a complex ban at all.

Or to put it another way, an ability's distribution is a trait of that ability, just as much as its effect is. Nothing that gets Huge Power is broken with it, even though the ability in a vacuum is objectively better than Gorilla Tactics. This isn't Hackmons; there's no reason why we are obligated to regard an ability's effects only in a vacuum. Gorilla Tactics has better distribution, and is thus in my opinion a better/broken ability. There's historical precedent for this, in that metas have existed where Arena Trap was banned but Shadow Tag (a strictly better ability in terms of effect) was not, because Arena Trap's distribution made it more of a problem.

 

[Deleted User 229847]

Whatever we decide on what to concentrate our attention, be it gorilla tactics or darmanitan as a whole, I second Mannat's post: quickban it. There's little to no reason to waste more time on a suspect test, the problem is here, there will be a supermajority of people who support the ban and waiting at least 2 weeks, create a topic for discussion, another one for REQs and so on and so forth is plainly put just postponing the inevitable.
The meta is unripe enough that quickbans are completely justified, I'd rather move on and suspect more interesting things such as dracovish (where things get a bit tricky since not almost everyone is in support of a ban).

 

[Darkk]

My main problem with this mon is that there’s no real good defensive counter against him so every match he’s going to get 1,2 kills minimum. He’s always good.

 

[Morkal]

I'd like to throw my thoughts in specifically because I've been the one mainly hyping Shedinja in the OU metagame discussion threads as an answer to choice locked G-Darmanitan. I love G-Darm, and I love having a main reason to use Shedinja (one of my favorite Pokemon after all), but G-Darm is realistically quite busted. Unless you're Shedinja walling its choice locked Icicle Crash / Ice Punch / U-Turn (and even then they could predict a Shedinja switch in and nail you with Flare Blitz), it's going to hurt you, badly.

I'm seeing a lot of parallels to the beginning of Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon's OU where people were running specific niche Pokemon and specific sets on established Pokemon in OU just to handle Naganadel. Sure there ARE counterplays to to both Naganadel and G-Darm (such as AV Empoleon and AV Ttar for Naganadel, and Jellicent / Shedinja for G-Darm), but even those counterplays have options to take them out, G-Darm's coverage is actually nuts. Being forced to run a particular Pokemon or particular sets on established Pokemon. A lot of the arguments being posed for keeping G-Darm in OU are the same arguments that were used to try and keep Naganadel in OU last gen.

G-Darm like Naganadel has two usable sets, but they're two DAMN INSANELY GREAT AND BUSTED sets.

So yeah, G-Darm needs to be suspected. I don't think a quickban is necessary, but definitely a suspect.

 

[Pais]

Ye Darmanitan is obviously broken, if there is a suspect I'll vote ban, but I disagree on quickbanning it. Suspects are never wasted time, metagame is still fresh so we can use the suspect to see if there are other things more than Darmanitan that need to be suspected/banned at least.

 

[Master B8s]

Quickbans at this stage of the metagame are actually quite common, since it is when the most blatantly broken elements present themselves. They also allow the metagame to settle more quickly in time for official tournaments and for usage stats to stabilize. Given SPL and the fact that we'll want the next usage stats to be reflective of long term staples rather than just checks to G Darm and Dracovish, I'd fully support a quickban. General opinion seems to be overwhelming to one side and hasn't really changed much.

I was under the impression quickbans were reserved for the obviously broken stuff (ex. Megamence in ORAS, mega- Kanga in XY, etc.). I am aware Darms constraint to team building and the pressure in practice it applies to teams(same can be said for fish imo) but I just don’t get the same feel when playing against garm as the previous mentioned threats. The council also suspected dynamaxing so I felt they simply skipped over the quick banning phase (albeit it was a core mechanic rather than just a mon so maybe a suspect test was better suited).

 

[Éric]

I don’t see Darmanitan broken. Imo it’s just what Kyurem Black was in past gens: an ice type wallbreaker with no switch ins but with many ways to play around it.
It’s biggest weakness imo is residual damage. It is weak to stealth rocks (and its necessity to pivot around with u turn doesn’t help with that). And with flare blitz you are forced to take a lot of damage in order to take out Ferrothorn for example. With just one attack you’re dead.
It also suffers from being slow and easy to being revenge killed if it’s banded (even though it’s not its best set), and the scarf set can’t break through bulky waters like Jellicent, Vaporeon or Milotic. The Rotoms can also come in once or twice, and it can be pivoted with like Pex + Corviknight.
TL;DR Darm can be played around imo, it’s just kyurem black galar version

 

[myowngamertag]

I don’t see Darmanitan broken. Imo it’s just what Kyurem Black was in past gens: an ice type wallbreaker with no switch ins but with many ways to play around it.
It’s biggest weakness imo is residual damage. It is weak to stealth rocks (and its necessity to pivot around with u turn doesn’t help with that). And with flare blitz you are forced to take a lot of damage in order to take out Ferrothorn for example. With just one attack you’re dead.
It also suffers from being slow and easy to being revenge killed if it’s banded (even though it’s not its best set), and the scarf set can’t break through bulky waters like Jellicent, Vaporeon or Milotic. The Rotoms can also come in once or twice, and it can be pivoted with like Pex + Corviknight.
TL;DR Darm can be played around imo, it’s just kyurem black galar version

Kyurem B had a lot more powerful things to worry about in earlier gens, part of the issue with G Darm is that dexit removed so many things that could potentially deal with it. Kyurem B also didn't get U-Turn