Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[BlueLobster]

The thing about Nidoking is it's a deadweight against most offense teams, who can streight up KO it before it can fire off a hit. Also D --> C+ is a massive proposed jump for something taht hasn't had a huge favourable metagame change recently (if anything unfavourable due to Hoopa), and while damned hard to switch into, isn't hard to kill presuming you have a mon to outspeed it (it's only base 85, you kinda need something faster than that in this meta. I'm not saying it's a bad mon, but it's no where near C+.

Halcyon. you are aware alot of that list is stuff that scares Nidoking more than Nido scares it? Latios, (offensive) Lando-T, Azumarill and Raikou can all outspeed and hit it SE (priority in Azu's case) and all of these OHKO it (maybe wrong on Raikou, idr the calcs and am on my phone). Yes they can't switch in safely, but listing them as stuff Nido beats is incorrect. How's it getting in on all this stuff anyway? I know I'm not switching all this stuff in on a Nidoking, and it can't switchin to most of them. It only gets in on most the passive ones, and even then doesn't enjoy taking their hits very much.

Anyway, I'm not that against Nidoking rising as I might sound, but it's no where near C+ material, although I wouldn't care if it rose to C-.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Nah it's like base 125 (If its Modest, which is what I personally would run but eh I like running + Atk natures so maybe thats just me).

Normal Nidoking:

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 218-257 (63.9 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Base 125, no Life Orb or Sheer Force

252+ SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 217-256 (63.6 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Base 126, same conditions as above:

252+ SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 219-258 (64.2 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


So, right around 125. That's pretty damn good, especially with its coverage, but thats also after the Life Orb boost. So, they're not ridiculously strong, the Nidos, but they're strong enough to take down defensive cores, 2HKOing many things like Hippo that are common on balance, as well as having stabs that nail other staples like Heatran and Clefable.

Btw, you can't figure out effective bases just by taking the boosts and adding them to eachother, or even just multiplying the base attacking stat by the boost multiple. It doesnt work that way. Mega Medicham doesnt have an effective base 200 attack. IIRC its actually 238. EVs and natures are taken into consideration, not the base stat on its own.

Scarf I feel is very bad. It takes the versatility of the mon and makes it just nonexistant, while also the lack in the Life Orb boost makes it weak.... It's slow, yeah, but you just cant slap a scarf on whatever is slow. It doesn't have to dismantle offense to be good, else half this tier would be bad, including one of the biggest threats in this metagame, Manaphy.

As a balance player I can tell you how menacing Nidoking is due to its sufficient power, and absolutely horrifying movepool. Idk if it should move up or not, I have no opinion to be honest, but I'm just trying to say that what cores Nidoking can take apart are quite varied from other wallbreakers, even Kyurem Black. Also, due to how your post is worded, I don't know if you've used it (I haven't, which is why I'm indifferent on its placing). It's not outclassed per se, just more niche and more overlooked.

 

[AM]

So I'm bored.

I'm gonna start discussion on Hoopa Unbound and Hoopa placement for the time being. I've went ahead and put an initial placement on both forms. Hoopa-U in A+ and Hoopa in B-. Small justification as to why I placed as such.

Hoopa-Unbound:

• A premiere wall-breaker with plenty of viable options, both in movepool and item options.
• AV, Life Orb, Scarf along with its expansive movepool creates high offensive presence that has the ability to nurture balance and almost impossible for conventional stall teams to counteract.
• I put it above Kyurem-B because of versatility and wall-breaking capabilities primarily. Its main STAB move in Dark is difficult for a lot of teams to stomach already + coverage options.
• Holding it back from S is the nature of teams at the moment to not lose momentum on non Scarf variants.
• Physically frail defense stat leaves it prone to revenge kills, emphasis on the importance of getting the KO to not die on that turn against anything with relative physical presence
• Speed tier falls short to other wall-breakers such as Kyurem-B and Manaphy, which is a big selling point with them as their speed tier allows them at the very least to speed tie dangerous threats such as Jolly Zard-X and Mega Gardevoir, in the case of Manaphy, and Jolly Lando-T and below in the case of Kyurem-B as two general examples.

Hoopa:

• Most of the offensive prowess of Hoopa-U is still noticable with Hoopa, justifying a placement somewhere in the B ranks practically.
• Long story short its placement is due to not a whole lot reason to use this as Hoopa-U poses more of a threat in the current meta. Opportunity cost to some extent but not like Latios v Mega Latios where it would almost invalidate the notion of a legitimate team slot entirely.

So with that discussion gauges to where the placement is fine, if they should go up, go down, etc. That's pretty much it and consider that the discussion point.

 

[Cheryl.]

So I'm bored.

I'm gonna start discussion on Hoopa Unbound and Hoopa placement for the time being. I've went ahead and put an initial placement on both forms. Hoopa-U in A+ and Hoopa in B-. Small justification as to why I placed as such.

Hoopa-Unbound:

• A premiere wall-breaker with plenty of viable options, both in movepool and item options.
• AV, Life Orb, Scarf along with its expansive movepool creates high offensive presence that has the ability to nurture balance and almost impossible for conventional stall teams to counteract.
• I put it above Kyurem-B because of versatility and wall-breaking capabilities primarily. Its main STAB move in Dark is difficult for a lot of teams to stomach already + coverage options.
• Holding it back from S is the nature of teams at the moment to not lose momentum on non Scarf variants.
• Physically frail defense stat leaves it prone to revenge kills, emphasis on the importance of getting the KO to not die on that turn against anything with relative physical presence
• Speed tier falls short to other wall-breakers such as Kyurem-B and Manaphy, which is a big selling point with them as their speed tier allows them at the very least to speed tie dangerous threats such as Jolly Zard-X and Mega Gardevoir, in the case of Manaphy, and Jolly Lando-T and below in the case of Kyurem-B as two general examples.

Hoopa:

• Most of the offensive prowess of Hoopa-U is still noticable with Hoopa, justifying a placement somewhere in the B ranks practically.
• Long story short its placement is due to not a whole lot reason to use this as Hoopa-U poses more of a threat in the current meta. Opportunity cost to some extent but not like Latios v Mega Latios where it would almost invalidate the notion of a legitimate team slot entirely.

So with that discussion gauges to where the placement is fine, if they should go up, go down, etc. That's pretty much it and consider that the discussion point.

I agree with the Hoopa-U placement, although I think hoopa-C should be C+ or C. It has opprotunity cost, yes, and it still has power, but it's typing is sort of meh and it doesn't have a lot of defense. it's also really slow without a scarf, so i think it should be lower than B-.

 

[AM]

I agree with the Hoopa-U placement, although I think hoopa-C should be C+ or C. It has opprotunity cost, yes, and it still has power, but it's typing is sort of meh and it doesn't have a lot of defense. it's also really slow without a scarf, so i think it should be lower than B-.

Yeah you're gonna need to tell me much more for me to actually consider that as the argument of moving it down.

 

[Jaroda]

I was definitely thinking A or A+ myself for Hoopa-U. It's just so damn strong with nice unpredictability. Hoopa-C unfortunately is sporting what you may call Mega Latios syndrome. Any minute reasoning to use it at the cost of using Hoopa-U regardless of how it performs (like it's typing I guess?) Makes it essentially obsolete despite how it may actually perform otherwise. Hard to say really

 

[AM]

And also pleeeeeease provide high quality replays to justify your argument so we don't sit here reading theorymon, thanks. Placement on my own behalf was decided upon games I've watched on high ladder and OU Room Tournaments, along with some play testing both using and facing it from myself. If I read a post about suspecting hoopa-u it's getting deleted. Thanks.

 

[Srn]

Hoopa-u is really powerful on paper with all the item choices and movepool but one thing that always bothers me when using it is how little it gets to switch-in.
It's notable that psychic/dark has no resists. That, paired with a garbage defense stat, not only leaves it prone to pursuit trapping and every priority move in the tier, but makes switching in very difficult.

When you compare that to a pokemon like kyu-b, something that can switch in on threats like mega venusaur, mega manectric, manaphy, rotom-w, hippowdon, etc, you realize that even though kyu-b isn't as threatening on paper, it ends up putting in a lot more work, and overall contributes to teams more than just punishing balance.

Once it gets in its way more threatening tho, and its scarf set is really gud, so i'd personally put it at the same rank as kyu-b.

edit: oh i'll try and get replays soon haha. I don't ladder much, i hope replays against decent opponents count :P

Edit2:

repleys

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-252478729
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-252482875 (vs halc)

 

[Ropeburn]

Hoopa-U is absolutely fantastic so far. I've actually had some success with Assault Vest so far.

AV and some investment in bulk gives him safe switch-ins to Latios and Starmie:
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 148-175 (49.1 - 58.1%)
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 138-164 (45.8 - 54.4%) (Analytic included)
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 144-169 (39.5 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Not really trying to argue anything about it's placement, just wanted to put that out there for discussion. Also, it gets D-Bond. It's pretty funny on scarf sets, but not sure how practical.

 

[eren]

Personally, Hoopa has the makings of S Rank to be honest. While its typing, defense, and speed are shit (no need to sugarcoat anything). It's perfect coverage makes it a slower, more powerful greninja. A Nasty Plot set or 4 Attack Set completely decimate both Stall and Balance respectively and force something with a higher speed to be run (i.e scarf ttar, your own hoopa, etc). This is kinda short but its just powerful as hell and while its deadweight to offense the same can be said for manaphy or kyurem, and Hoopa-U hits harder than both and has better coverage. Thats how i feel :/

 

[Alfalfa]

I have no opinion on Hoopa-C but man, Hoopa-U is such a good mon. Really vulnerable to Pursuit trapping, but support it right and it won't disappoint. While fat builds are pressured by Hoopa-U to no avail, many bulky Pokemon also provide a lot of utility that Hoopa-U appreciates; Slowbro, Celebi, Ferrothorn, Hippowdon, Garchomp, and Mega Scizor are all capable of supporting Hoopa-U quite well with the ability to switch into the multitude of offensive Pokemon that threaten.

 

[Deleted User 268985]

Hoopa-U is S easily. It has too many options. Physical, special, mixed, life orb, scarf, they all work and they all have completely opposite switch ins.

Pursuit trapping is not much of an issue if Hoopa runs max speed. Only scarf Ttar and Weavile will be trapping you then, and they can't switch in for fear of a fighting move (Hoopa has both a physical and a special fighting attack). If they do get in, they won't KO you with pursuit since you're not weak to it, so a lot of times it's not even worth it for them to go for the pursuit.

Regular Hoopa: haven't used. There's really no reason to with Hoopa-U in the tier and Gengar being a better offensive ghost.

 

[RaminO7]

Hoopa-U should be A+ maybe even S in the future. Just having so many offensive options, a great move pool and a good speed tier after Scarfed, and even with LO can outspeed Mega-Altaria and beat it. It's got little weakness except Bug, but all of them have 4x weaknesses. The access to Hyperspace Fury, Knock Off, Dark Pulse all as STABs which are viable is great, and it's still got Mixed Sets. It's probably better than all Dark Types and I'd go S rank.

Hoopa should be B-/C+, it's great, but the defence is poor and its speed is bad both ways even in Trick Room, so what I can say. 150 SpA and 130 SpD is good and all, and the movepool is good, but there are detrimental stats is 60 Def, 80 HP and 70 Spe. Hoopa isn't great, Gengar is much better, but it's enough to cement a spot in the B-/C+ ranks

This is just a few quick thoughts, and I'm not 100% on it, feel free to refute me

 

[TheMCGamer13]

Hoopa-U: This thing is a beast. However, I don't think it belongs in S rank. Hoopa-U can destroy teams without a U-Turn mon or a counter. Hoopa-U also has next to no switch-ins aside from Mega Scizor, and Focus Sash revenge killers. However, it has no resistances, and a 4x weakness to U-Turn. Mega Scizor destroys it apart from niche Fire Punch, and it's also pretty slow and frail on the physical side. However, Hoopa-U is still an amazing wallbreaker, so I think it should stay A+.

Hoopa-C: I'm going to try to use it tomorrow, but from first look, its typing is the only thing it has that is better than Hoopa-U. I'm not going to make any rash decisions right now though.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Personally, Hoopa has the makings of S Rank to be honest. While its typing, defense, and speed are shit (no need to sugarcoat anything). It's perfect coverage makes it a slower, 1.5x more powerful greninja. A Nasty Plot set or 4 Attack Set completely decimate both Stall and Balance respectively and force something with a higher speed to be run (i.e scarf ttar, your own hoopa, etc). This is kinda short but its just powerful as hell and while its deadweight to offense the same can be said for manaphy or kyurem, and Hoopa-U hits harder than both and has better coverage. Thats how i feel :/

It is not 1.5x more powerful than Imbaninja. Ninja has Protean, so all of its move receive a STAB bonus that only Hoopa can boast on its Dual STABs of Psychic and Dark. Not to mention Greninja (although it has bad defenses just like Hoopa-U) has a much better speed tier and Six resistances (before changing type into nearly anything) and one immunity. Hoopa-U has NO resistances and the same immunity. It is an increbile mon in theory and though it does tear apart Stall many other Pokemon can do that just as well (granted not in one turn); it lacks the ability to become S rank due to its inability to switch in on basically anything and major weakness to Pursuit trappers in addition to its dragging reliance on Volt Switch and U-Turn users to bring it in under a normal situation. Of course you can bring it in after one of your Pokemon is fainted for a large chunk of damage on a switch or a revenge KO, but this can only be done five times at maximum. I would reccomend playing with Hoopa-U as well as against it more before claiming it needs S rank. That is a massive leap for a mostly unexplored Pokemon; give it some time to be delved into by both you and the tier's top players before passing a quick "lol its stats are too high must be OP" verdict.
P.S. Magician is terrible on Hoopa because it probably won't take any Knock Offs very well.

 

[GlassVeins]

I apologize for not saving my replays, but I have had a hard time playing with hoopa-u simply because it was difficult to bring in. just thought I'd make it clear i'm not just theorymonning.
I would like to mention that when I managed to bring it in safely, it managed to do some major damage. Its coverage is awesome, and its stats are nothing to laugh at. I think it has potential in A+ as one of the premier wallbreakers. So A+ seems pretty reasonable to me.

 

[eren]

Hide

It is not 1.5x more powerful than Imbaninja. Ninja has Protean, so all of its move receive a STAB bonus that only Hoopa can boast on its Dual STABs of Psychic and Dark.

yes, greninja has protean, but if both mons get STAB on the same move Hoopa-U is more powerful

252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 199-235 (58.3 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 144-172 (42.2 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

however, i misworded that. changed.


Not to mention Greninja (although it has bad defenses just like Hoopa-U) has a much better speed tier and Six resistances (before changing type into nearly anything) and one immunity.

This doesnt change the fact that Hoopa-U can decimate both Stall and Balance, while Greninja mostly thrives against Balance (which it can break with the right moveset, same for Hoopa) and HO (speed)

Hoopa-U has NO resistances and the same immunity. It is an increbile mon in theory and though it does tear apart Stall many other Pokemon can do that just as well (granted not in one turn); it lacks the ability to become S rank due to its inability to switch in on basically anything and major weakness to Pursuit trappers in addition to its dragging reliance on Volt Switch and U-Turn users to bring it in under a normal situation.

Greninja has the same issue to be honest, when your a mon with 60 defenses (Hoopa has 130 SpD so it can actually switch in on some weak vswitches from the likes of MMane, Raikou, and Rotom js), resistances dont really matter. Your still dying to that U-turn from Scarf Lando if you are the Greninja user anyway or the Draco Meteor from LO Latios (another note: 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hoopa: 148-175 (46.3 - 54.8%) -- 60.5% chance to 2HKO js). Greninja also had a semi-reliance to a VoltTurn core, because it was actually switching in on less than Hoopa does in reality.

Of course you can bring it in after one of your Pokemon is fainted for a large chunk of damage on a switch or a revenge KO, but this can only be done five times at maximum. I would reccomend playing with Hoopa-U as well as against it more before claiming it needs S rank. That is a massive leap for a mostly unexplored Pokemon;


i have played with Hoopa-U....


give it some time to be delved into by both you and the tier's top players before passing a quick "lol its stats are too high must be OP" verdict.

I never said that. Yes, thats a main factor, however its better coverage than Greninja (which is insane) and more power than Greninja (16-20% more) makes it much more deadly against Stall/Balance than Greninja ever was. For this reason, I think Hoopa deserves S Rank because it basically demolishes a play style.

P.S. Magician is terrible on Hoopa because it probably won't take any Knock Offs very well.

When did i say magician is good?

 

[teamsnickers]

Hoopa u is one of those mons thats REALLY good in theory but actual battling wise its just a huuuge hit or miss mon. Its NO RESIST means that its extremely hard to bring in(av is a realllly underrated set few people use) Power wise hoopa u is by far the BEST wallbreaker in the tier BUT synergy wise IMO manaphy is just such a more wellrounded better option with almost as good of coverage...Against any offensive teams that not bulky offense hoopa u will struggle under pressure and just be dead weight in most battles..... Smogon gave hoopa u a 80 base speed stat to troll it or something lol for a pure wallbreaker 80 speed is not bad but it be a plus on the viability rankings you have to be at least SEMI useful against all types of teams and hoopa u is just deadweight and eaten up, its not like stall was really viable before hoopa u anyway this was a offensive meta in the first place where hoopa u doesnt really fit, a is a better place for it IMO
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-252481726 heres a gods among us tour battle between me and jacob where hoopa u was useless (I used my main team and his mega mawile was dead by like turn 5 so had nothing to do with anything)

 

[Lord Xen III]

And also pleeeeeease provide high quality replays to justify your argument so we don't sit here reading theorymon, thanks. Placement on my own behalf was decided upon games I've watched on high ladder and OU Room Tournaments, along with some play testing both using and facing it from myself. If I read a post about suspecting hoopa-u it's getting deleted. Thanks.

So I'm bored.

I'm gonna start discussion on Hoopa Unbound and Hoopa placement for the time being. I've went ahead and put an initial placement on both forms. Hoopa-U in A+ and Hoopa in B-. Small justification as to why I placed as such.

Hoopa-Unbound:

• A premiere wall-breaker with plenty of viable options, both in movepool and item options.
• AV, Life Orb, Scarf along with its expansive movepool creates high offensive presence that has the ability to nurture balance and almost impossible for conventional stall teams to counteract.
• I put it above Kyurem-B because of versatility and wall-breaking capabilities primarily. Its main STAB move in Dark is difficult for a lot of teams to stomach already + coverage options.
• Holding it back from S is the nature of teams at the moment to not lose momentum on non Scarf variants.
• Physically frail defense stat leaves it prone to revenge kills, emphasis on the importance of getting the KO to not die on that turn against anything with relative physical presence
• Speed tier falls short to other wall-breakers such as Kyurem-B and Manaphy, which is a big selling point with them as their speed tier allows them at the very least to speed tie dangerous threats such as Jolly Zard-X and Mega Gardevoir, in the case of Manaphy, and Jolly Lando-T and below in the case of Kyurem-B as two general examples.

Hoopa:

• Most of the offensive prowess of Hoopa-U is still noticable with Hoopa, justifying a placement somewhere in the B ranks practically.
• Long story short its placement is due to not a whole lot reason to use this as Hoopa-U poses more of a threat in the current meta. Opportunity cost to some extent but not like Latios v Mega Latios where it would almost invalidate the notion of a legitimate team slot entirely.

So with that discussion gauges to where the placement is fine, if they should go up, go down, etc. That's pretty much it and consider that the discussion point.

I agree with the initial placement for Hoopa U. This guy is another powerful balance breaker with the move pool and stats causing it to have very few switch-ins, if any and it really stands out in that department even compared to the last few wall breakers we have banned such as lando i. Klefki Skarmory and Mandibuzz seem to be the best checks so far to the Hyperspace fury, Gunk shot, Drain punch, Psychic mixed set... but Hoopa u still has coverage moves that can nail all 3 of them. Its mixed LO set and scarf sets are the most common sets I've seen which was contrary to the theory that its Nasty plot 3 attacks set would be its best set. Now, I've tried Mixed LO set, and right now Hoopa u is pretty matchup based. Against slower teams Hoopa u was the MVP, but against faster teams I've struggled to use Hoopa as you would imagine. My problem with Hoopa is that unlike other wallbreakers in the past its typing grants it a grand total of 0 resists. An example was that when i built with Lando i, and then went to pair it with pursuit bisharp to trap Cresselia and Latis, Lando I added good synergy to the core without adding in a drawback. Lando is immune to ground and resists fighting attacks thrown at bisharp. With hoopa u all it adds is a psychic immunity and with a poor physical defense stat Ive found that in the teambuilder extra work must be done to cover threats to the team. Hoopa u does have a great special defense stat so it can take some of the moderately strong special attacks of the tier very well despite no resists, but other than that I've found Hoopa u to be pretty deadweight against offensive teams, especially volt turn with that 4 times weakness to bug. So many games despite how great its wall breaking prowess is its just been hard to get in. I've found that hoopa really only gets in on proactive double switches or a volt turn partner bringing it in. People have patched up this problem by running scarf Hoopa u, but the idea is that I also want to be able to wall break with this mon so the item for that LO, so scarf is not really always gonna be the option. Even once u get it in, the hyperspace fury drops make you even more vulnerable to priority and pursuit trapping then you already inherently are. But other than that, once Hoopa u is ready to fire off an attack, there is not much that will avoid a 2hko from it, and its pretty much a nightmare for stall and slower balance teams. It has more versatility via its move pool and strength overall than things like Kyuub, and Char Y, so it definitely shouldn't be in the same rank as those even though they have a big Speed advantage. I would be ok with a rise to S for Hoopa if some sets are discovered that patch up some of its flaws at the moment and allow it to more consistently threaten offensive teams while maintaining prowess versus slower teams, because so far scarf hasn't cut it unless someone proves otherwise. And when i say that, i mean like wallbreakers of the past that rose to S rank and were even eventually banned, such as Rock polish Lando I, Mega Gengar , Speed Boost Blaziken, sucker punch Mega Mawile, sucker punch Nega Kanga, Mega Lucario- they all had a common trait in where they had at least one set that left offense and balance/ stall on their knees at the same time due to having great initial speed and or priority along with insane wallibreaking prowess. Hoopa u does not get priority to patch up the speed stat. The closest comparison would be to rock polish lando i where unlike scarf hoopa, it was able to outspeed the entire unboosted metagame, and even most scarfers and things like sand rush excadrill ( scarf hoopa u is still outsped by mega Beedrill, Alakazam, and mega Aero) while still being able to change moves and run a LO for the necessary power. Because of that, lando i still had the ability to hugely threaten balance teams even without the 4th moveslot while now cleaning HO. So yea, start Hoopa U in A+, then potentially raise it to S once more experience with it has been gathered that may unlock some hidden potential.

For Hoopa C, somewhere in the B ranks seems fine. It suffers many of the same problems as hoopa u but on a even higher extent, and it is weaker and slower. It still puts in a lot of work against stall teams being able to set up on chansey thanks to the ghost typing with substitute + nasty plot, and is a cool spin blocker.

 

[MANNAT]

Another thing to note about hoopa-c is that its subnp set completely shuts down and/or annihilates chansey and other stallmons better than hoopa-u does due to its ghost typing as well as ghost being much harder to switch into for most teams because it has less resistances than dark type (the only good normal type in ou i can think of being chansey which gets shut down by the subnp set), this isnt an argument to move it up or down, but just a warning to those saying that it should move down because all they do is compare its base stats compared to hoopa-u.

 

[bludz]

I think A+ is fine for the time being since we haven't had enough time to discover optimal sets and see how the metagame adapts to it. I'm pretty sure we've all had a few issues trying to build and play with it since it brings such a strange set of attributes to the table especially with no real resistances.

I might have personally opted to start it off in A rank to begin with but I don't think it makes much of a difference. Our collective experience with this mon is still pretty limited so I'm personally not going to support any nominations for it (or Hoopa-C for that matter) until we have a little more time to judge. That said, at the moment I don't see a good argument for it to move to S rank and I fail to see the point of nominating it to move down so soon after its initial placement when our understanding of its viability is still fairly weak.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

That post was less directed at you and more to the whole group of people claiming Hoopa-U is OP/S Rank without taking into account its weaknesses besides its bad defense and mediocre as mess speed.

 

[viol and bass]

It's notable that psychic/dark is the only typing in the game to have no resists.

Wait, what? I haven't even considered dual typings but pure normal has no resists so that's a bit of an oversight. Unless you include immunities as a resistance, but then Hoopa-U has an immunity too, so...

 

[Roxachronic]

Hoopa-U seems more an A to me for the time being, but it is still a new mon so is difficult to rank it properly, anyways I think is a neat mon.

Also Hoopa seems a little high IMO, double 4x weaknesses are going to be a pain for it, in fact Hoopa-U becoming usable will also hurt it since is another mon that will surely be a problem for it, Knock Offs and U-turns everywhere also, anyways is better to wait to see how they do in the meta, I only have hopes for Hoopa-U tough.

 

[Flamer]

Hoopa-U -> A: Ive honestly found Hoopa-U to be far less threatening in practice than on paper. While it definitely has absurd power and coverage, its low speed and pitiful defense stat often prevent it from switching in and staying in. In a metagame where offense is leagues better than everything else, Hoopa-u struggles to be anything other than deadweight against those teams, relying on slow voltturn and double switches to get in. While balance and stall get manhandled by hoopas offensive prowess, the increase in usage of U-turners on both balance and offense such as Lando-T, Talonflame, Tornadus-T and Jirachi make Hoopa a big momentum loser and at times a liability. The fact that Hoopa-U itself needs voltturn to switch in actually hurts it as much as it helps as opposing teams with Hoopa will likely be employing the same strategy, giving Hoopa little room to breathe.

Hoopa-U's biggest competition in the department of "balance annihilator" is Kyu-B, who is currently in A. When I look at the two, I honestly think that their pros and cons over eachother balance out very nicely. Kyurem has a significantly higher base speed and defenses while Hoopa has way better coverage and as in general more effective at taking out walls. Just look at the calcs below to see what I mean.

0 SpA Mega Charizard X Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 118-141 (39.2 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 246-289 (81.7 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Mega Charizard X Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 162-192 (41.4 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 162-192 (41.4 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(Note that these calcs do not take ability, nature or EVs into consideration, I just used CharX because he had equal attacking stats and BP moves)

As can be seen, Kyurem-B has roughly the same special bulk while having almost double the physical bulk. You might say "Why does bulk and speed matter on a mon which beats balance and stall, playstyles who cant hit as hard and are usually slower?" However this extra physical bulk is immesely useful against mons like Talonflame, Scizor, Landorus-T, who cannot KO kyurem with even super effective moves. Whats ironic is that all of these mons have increased in usage even further in order to beat hoopa. The extra speed is nice for beating common balance mons like and it also allows Kyu-B to not be dead weight against offense.

Thats not to say Hoopa doesnt have some significant advantages over its competition either. 160/170 base stats are nothing to scoff at and considering the amazing movepool Hoopa is blessed with, its no wonder Balance and Stall shit their pants every time Hoopa comes in. Kyurem-B may be easier to get in, but its also easier to get things in on it while Hoopa pretty much guarantees a kill whenever it comes in.

Overall I feel that Hoopa-U and Kyurem-B both have specific pros and cons which merit ones use over the other. For this reason I feel the two should be placed in the same rank until the a shift in the metagame changes this.