We can't drop Nidoking, the whole point of this thread is that we are building a team AROUND Nidoking.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
OU CCAT: Nidoking Edition
- Thread starter Pocket
- Start date
About Latios's set, why doesn't it use Surf?
I think Latios doesn't lend us that great of a fighting resistance. I'll use some calcs to show my point:
(WARNING: LOTS OF TEXT)
Conkeldurr:
Latios can switch in on BU set hoping to not get predicted and hit by Payback.
252Atk Guts Conkeldurr (+Atk) Payback vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Latios (Neutral): 50% - 60% (154 - 182 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
Conk is forced out, but Latios takes a big hit. Of course, this depends on prediction by the opponent. However, the CB set is a bigger problem.
252Atk Choice Band Guts Conkeldurr (+Atk) Superpower vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Latios (Neutral): 67% - 79% (204 - 241 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
Latios is severely crippled. If you use Psyshock, Conk is OHKOed, but if you don't, Conk can stay in and finish you off:
252SpAtk Latios (Neutral) Draco Meteor vs 252HP/0SpDef Conkeldurr (Neutral): 78% - 92% (325 - 384 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
Granted, Conk is now crippled, but he can still MP to his heart's content.
Latios does fairly well against Conkeldurr, but is not a hard counter. Moving on...
Lucario:
If Latios switches in on SD and SR is up, he is cleanly OHKOed by ES.
252Atk Life Orb +2 Lucario (+Atk) ExtremeSpeed vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Latios (Neutral): 88% - 103% (266 - 314 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 25% chance to OHKO.
Terrakion:
Latios can really only switch in on a SD, and a predicted EQ or CC, and the CC can only be from a Scarf set.
RP Terrakion:
At +2, Terrakion outspeeds and OHKOs with Stone Edge (provided SR is up).
252Atk Life Orb Terrakion (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Latios (Neutral): 92% - 109% (280 - 331 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 56% chance to OHKO.
CB Terrakion:
252Atk Choice Band Terrakion (Neutral) Close Combat vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Latios (Neutral): 58% - 68% (176 - 207 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
Terrakion is forced out, but Latios is still crippled.
252Atk Choice Band Terrakion (Neutral) Stone Edge vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Latios (Neutral): 97% - 114% (294 - 346 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 84% chance to OHKO.
Not much to say. OHKOed again.
Virizion:
Latios wins, unless if you don't run Psyshock you might struggle against the CM set.
Infernape:
Latios wins most of the time, but if on low health he can be finished off by the SD set.
252Atk Life Orb +2 Iron Fist Infernape (Neutral) Mach Punch vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Latios (Neutral): 34% - 41% (105 - 124 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
Also, Latios doesn't like taking U-Turns from the Choiced sets.
252Atk Iron Fist Infernape (Neutral) U-turn vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Latios (Neutral): 52% - 62% (158 - 188 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Infernape (Neutral) U-turn vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Latios (Neutral): 78% - 92% (238 - 280 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
Breloom:
If Spore has been used, Latios has a generally safe switch. The recent uprise of BlueStar's Bulk Up set makes for some interesting situations, though.
252SpAtk Latios (Neutral) Draco Meteor vs 236HP/212SpDef Breloom (+SpDef): 74% - 87% (237 - 279 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252Atk +1 Breloom (Neutral) Drain Punch vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Latios (Neutral): 36% - 43% (110 - 130 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
Breloom restores 55 - 65 HP with Drain Punch, and 40 HP with Poison Heal. This means at the end of the turn, Breloom will have at the least 136 HP left, and at the most 188.
If Latios chooses to stay in and DM again,
252SpAtk -2 Latios (Neutral) Draco Meteor vs 212HP/236SpDef Breloom (+SpDef): 36% - 43% (115 - 136 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
Latios has a tiny chance of finishing off Breloom. Otherwise, Breloom effectively wins.
I can't do a Psyshock calc because I'm not sure whether the calculator will interpret the +1 as a boost to Defense or S. Defense. If someone could help me out that would be fantastic.
Toxicroak:
252Atk Life Orb +2 Toxicroak (+Atk) Sucker Punch vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Latios (Neutral): 172% - 202% (520 - 612 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.
'nuff said. 'Croak doesn't even need to boost to beat Latios.
252Atk Life Orb Toxicroak (+Atk) Sucker Punch vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Latios (Neutral): 86% - 101% (262 - 308 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 13% chance to OHKO.
Mienshao:
Mienshao has three sets, so I'll consider all of them.
LO:
252Atk Life Orb Mienshao (Neutral) Hi Jump Kick vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Latios (Neutral): 53% - 62% (161 - 190 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
Ouch. Latios takes a huge hit. Worse still, Latios could meet an incoming U-Turn.
252Atk Life Orb Mienshao (Neutral) U-turn vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Latios (Neutral): 77% - 90% (234 - 274 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
Not good.
CS:
252Atk Mienshao (Neutral) Hi Jump Kick vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Latios (Neutral): 41% - 48% (124 - 147 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
252Atk Mienshao (Neutral) U-turn vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Latios (Neutral): 59% - 70% (180 - 212 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
Latios still takes big hits.
CB:
252Atk Choice Band Mienshao (Neutral) Hi Jump Kick vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Latios (Neutral): 61% - 72% (186 - 219 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252Atk Choice Band Mienshao (Neutral) U-turn vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Latios (Neutral): 88% - 104% (268 - 316 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 29% chance to OHKO.
It's not looking so good for Latios, now is it?
Scrafty:
Against DDScrafty:
252SpAtk Latios (Neutral) Draco Meteor vs 4HP/0SpDef Scrafty (Neutral): 75% - 88% (204 - 240 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
Scrafty survives, though not very comfortably, and OHKOs back easily with Crunch.
252Atk +1 Scrafty (Neutral) Crunch vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Latios (Neutral): 121% - 143% (368 - 434 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.
Against BUScrafty:
252SpAtk Latios (Neutral) Draco Meteor vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Scrafty (+SpDef): 44% - 52% (150 - 177 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
Basically, Scrafty can just recover health back with Drain Punch and continue boosting, choosing to KO Latios whenever it sees fit.
Latios can switch in on BU set hoping to not get predicted and hit by Payback.
252Atk Guts Conkeldurr (+Atk) Payback vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Latios (Neutral): 50% - 60% (154 - 182 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
Conk is forced out, but Latios takes a big hit. Of course, this depends on prediction by the opponent. However, the CB set is a bigger problem.
252Atk Choice Band Guts Conkeldurr (+Atk) Superpower vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Latios (Neutral): 67% - 79% (204 - 241 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
Latios is severely crippled. If you use Psyshock, Conk is OHKOed, but if you don't, Conk can stay in and finish you off:
252SpAtk Latios (Neutral) Draco Meteor vs 252HP/0SpDef Conkeldurr (Neutral): 78% - 92% (325 - 384 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
Granted, Conk is now crippled, but he can still MP to his heart's content.
Latios does fairly well against Conkeldurr, but is not a hard counter. Moving on...
Lucario:
If Latios switches in on SD and SR is up, he is cleanly OHKOed by ES.
252Atk Life Orb +2 Lucario (+Atk) ExtremeSpeed vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Latios (Neutral): 88% - 103% (266 - 314 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 25% chance to OHKO.
Terrakion:
Latios can really only switch in on a SD, and a predicted EQ or CC, and the CC can only be from a Scarf set.
RP Terrakion:
At +2, Terrakion outspeeds and OHKOs with Stone Edge (provided SR is up).
252Atk Life Orb Terrakion (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Latios (Neutral): 92% - 109% (280 - 331 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 56% chance to OHKO.
CB Terrakion:
252Atk Choice Band Terrakion (Neutral) Close Combat vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Latios (Neutral): 58% - 68% (176 - 207 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
Terrakion is forced out, but Latios is still crippled.
252Atk Choice Band Terrakion (Neutral) Stone Edge vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Latios (Neutral): 97% - 114% (294 - 346 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 84% chance to OHKO.
Not much to say. OHKOed again.
Virizion:
Latios wins, unless if you don't run Psyshock you might struggle against the CM set.
Infernape:
Latios wins most of the time, but if on low health he can be finished off by the SD set.
252Atk Life Orb +2 Iron Fist Infernape (Neutral) Mach Punch vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Latios (Neutral): 34% - 41% (105 - 124 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
Also, Latios doesn't like taking U-Turns from the Choiced sets.
252Atk Iron Fist Infernape (Neutral) U-turn vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Latios (Neutral): 52% - 62% (158 - 188 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Infernape (Neutral) U-turn vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Latios (Neutral): 78% - 92% (238 - 280 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
Breloom:
If Spore has been used, Latios has a generally safe switch. The recent uprise of BlueStar's Bulk Up set makes for some interesting situations, though.
252SpAtk Latios (Neutral) Draco Meteor vs 236HP/212SpDef Breloom (+SpDef): 74% - 87% (237 - 279 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252Atk +1 Breloom (Neutral) Drain Punch vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Latios (Neutral): 36% - 43% (110 - 130 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
Breloom restores 55 - 65 HP with Drain Punch, and 40 HP with Poison Heal. This means at the end of the turn, Breloom will have at the least 136 HP left, and at the most 188.
If Latios chooses to stay in and DM again,
252SpAtk -2 Latios (Neutral) Draco Meteor vs 212HP/236SpDef Breloom (+SpDef): 36% - 43% (115 - 136 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
Latios has a tiny chance of finishing off Breloom. Otherwise, Breloom effectively wins.
I can't do a Psyshock calc because I'm not sure whether the calculator will interpret the +1 as a boost to Defense or S. Defense. If someone could help me out that would be fantastic.
Toxicroak:
252Atk Life Orb +2 Toxicroak (+Atk) Sucker Punch vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Latios (Neutral): 172% - 202% (520 - 612 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.
'nuff said. 'Croak doesn't even need to boost to beat Latios.
252Atk Life Orb Toxicroak (+Atk) Sucker Punch vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Latios (Neutral): 86% - 101% (262 - 308 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 13% chance to OHKO.
Mienshao:
Mienshao has three sets, so I'll consider all of them.
LO:
252Atk Life Orb Mienshao (Neutral) Hi Jump Kick vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Latios (Neutral): 53% - 62% (161 - 190 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
Ouch. Latios takes a huge hit. Worse still, Latios could meet an incoming U-Turn.
252Atk Life Orb Mienshao (Neutral) U-turn vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Latios (Neutral): 77% - 90% (234 - 274 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
Not good.
CS:
252Atk Mienshao (Neutral) Hi Jump Kick vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Latios (Neutral): 41% - 48% (124 - 147 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
252Atk Mienshao (Neutral) U-turn vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Latios (Neutral): 59% - 70% (180 - 212 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
Latios still takes big hits.
CB:
252Atk Choice Band Mienshao (Neutral) Hi Jump Kick vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Latios (Neutral): 61% - 72% (186 - 219 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252Atk Choice Band Mienshao (Neutral) U-turn vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Latios (Neutral): 88% - 104% (268 - 316 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 29% chance to OHKO.
It's not looking so good for Latios, now is it?
Scrafty:
Against DDScrafty:
252SpAtk Latios (Neutral) Draco Meteor vs 4HP/0SpDef Scrafty (Neutral): 75% - 88% (204 - 240 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
Scrafty survives, though not very comfortably, and OHKOs back easily with Crunch.
252Atk +1 Scrafty (Neutral) Crunch vs 4HP/0Def Levitate Latios (Neutral): 121% - 143% (368 - 434 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.
Against BUScrafty:
252SpAtk Latios (Neutral) Draco Meteor vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Scrafty (+SpDef): 44% - 52% (150 - 177 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
Basically, Scrafty can just recover health back with Drain Punch and continue boosting, choosing to KO Latios whenever it sees fit.
In conclusion, Latios does not fare too well against most Fighting types on its own. It would work as a suitable RK against them, although I think if all we desire is a RK, then other 'mons are better suited to that task. With greater bulk, I would prefer Latias over her brother to deal with Fighting-types.
Psyshock is not a good move on a Scarf set. Despite what it seems, Blissey and Chansey especially stomach it rather comfortably.
252SpAtk Latios (Neutral) Psyshock vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Blissey (+Def): 33% - 39% (237 - 280 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.
252SpAtk Latios (Neutral) Psyshock vs 252HP/252Def Eviolite Chansey (+Def): 24% - 29% (174 - 205 HP). Guaranteed 5HKO.
HP Fighting really doesn't trouble SDefTran all that much. The only thing that it hits well is TTar, and seeing as TTar eats Latios for breakfast EVEN if you predict a switch, Surf is probably superior.
252SpAtk Latios (Neutral) Hidden Power (Fighting) vs 248HP/100SpDef Leftovers Flash Fire Heatran (+SpDef): 31% - 37% (122 - 144 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.
252SpAtk Latios (Neutral) Hidden Power (Fighting) in Sandstorm vs 252HP/192SpDef Leftovers Tyranitar (+SpDef): 38% - 45% (156 - 184 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
252SpAtk Latios (Neutral) Surf in Sandstorm vs 248HP/100SpDef Leftovers Flash Fire Heatran (+SpDef): 42% - 50% (164 - 194 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
I'd also rather run Surf, because if Latios is revenge killing your opponents are generally hit harder by Surf. (Terrakion, Infernape, Landorus, Volcarona)
Thunderbolt is really only useful for revenge killing Gyarados, and we already have Rotom-W to deal with that threat. I'm not sure what other "fast waters" you are referring to. (Cloyster? DM will KO anyway. Rotom-W? Tbolt is neutral. Starmie? We have Rotom-W to deal with it, and DM will KO 100% of the time.) I'd rather have Dragon Pulse, for reliable STAB, in that spot.
Latios without Specs or LO does not pose that much of an offensive threat, either. T-Tar, Scizor, Jirachi, Blissey and others now easily deal with him. You really need to do some calculations before you claim that Draco Meteor "decimates everything unresisting." Also, ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS run Trick on a Choice set!
I agree, but I was simply trying to show that Latios would not be our ideal Fighting resist or scarfer.
What about Gengar? Specifically Sub Disable Gengar. Maybe the one from the Analysis might work:
[pimg]94[/pimg]
Gengar@ Leftovers
Timid
4HP/ 252SPA+SPEED
Substitute
Disable
Focus Blast/HP Fighting
Shadow Ball
Immune to fighting+ Can Disable the Dark Type moves fighting types run. Immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes.
Max Speed to speed tie w/ Latis+ Other Gengar. Max Special Attack to dent opponents.
Timid is to speed tie. HP Fighting comes with better accuracy but horrible power and horrible side effect of lowering speed.
Dark type attacks aimed and Gengar not called Pursuit are perfect for Virizion and Psychic is x4 resisted. No one else can help with the Ghost weakness though.
It doesn't fit well with the Bulky offense theme due to having no visible defenses but Sub+Disable cures most of that.
[pimg]94[/pimg]
Gengar@ Leftovers
Timid
4HP/ 252SPA+SPEED
Substitute
Disable
Focus Blast/HP Fighting
Shadow Ball
Immune to fighting+ Can Disable the Dark Type moves fighting types run. Immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes.
Max Speed to speed tie w/ Latis+ Other Gengar. Max Special Attack to dent opponents.
Timid is to speed tie. HP Fighting comes with better accuracy but horrible power and horrible side effect of lowering speed.
Dark type attacks aimed and Gengar not called Pursuit are perfect for Virizion and Psychic is x4 resisted. No one else can help with the Ghost weakness though.
It doesn't fit well with the Bulky offense theme due to having no visible defenses but Sub+Disable cures most of that.
Nice nomination, GrassBlade; I can definitely see Gengar providing an offensive approach to some of the threats to this team, namely against Celebi, Terrakion, and Lucario. I think I prefer LO Pain Split Gengar, though, since it can actually dent Chansey, Blissey, and Gastrodon that walls Nidoking. If anything, it can force those special walls to Recover / Softboiled so that SD Virizion can come in safely. Here, I'll nominate it:
Gengar @ Life Orb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
~ Shadow Ball
~ Focus Blast
~ Substitute
~ Pain Split
Gengar @ Life Orb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
~ Shadow Ball
~ Focus Blast
~ Substitute
~ Pain Split
Dudes, it's time for Teammate Nominations! Thank you to those who have made submitted teammates! Our current team line up is listed on the OP.
OU CCAT ballot
I'll let the voting be open till Tuesday, Jan. 10th.
OU CCAT ballot
- Dragonite (Choice Band) - ThePillsburyDoughBoy
- Gengar (Sub & Disable) - GrassBlade
- Gengar (LO Pain Split) - Pocket
- Gliscor (SD & Acrobatics) - Treadshot A1
- Gyarados (Substitute & DD) - Birkal
- Gyarados (Bulky Support) & Scizor (Jolly SD) - Pocket
- Hydreigon (Substitute) - New World Order
- Latios (Choice Scarf) - spuds4ever
- Weavile (Swords Dance) - Skore
I'll let the voting be open till Tuesday, Jan. 10th.
Gliscor (SD & Acrobatics) - Treadshot A1
Dragonite (Choice Band) - ThePillsburyDoughBoy
Hydreigon (Substitute) - New World Order
Dragonite (Choice Band) - ThePillsburyDoughBoy
Hydreigon (Substitute) - New World Order
Dragonite (Choice Band)
Gyarados (SubDD)
Hydreigon (Substitute)
Gyarados (SubDD)
Hydreigon (Substitute)
Gengar (LO Pain Split)
Gengar (Sub & Disable)
Gengar (Sub & Disable)
Gyarados (Substitute & DD) - Birka
Gengar (Sub & Disable) - GrassBlade
Gengar (Sub & Disable) - GrassBlade
Gengar (Sub & Disable) - GrassBlade
Gengar (LO Pain Split)-Pocket Himself!
Dragonite (Choice Band)-ThePillsburyDoughBoy
Gengar (LO Pain Split)-Pocket Himself!
Dragonite (Choice Band)-ThePillsburyDoughBoy
- Gliscor (SD & Acrobatics) - Treadshot A1
- Gyarados (Substitute & DD) - Birkal
- Latios (Choice Scarf) - spuds4ever
If I can't vote for my own, then just count the other two. :)
Gengar (LO Pain Split)
Weavile (Swords Dance)
Gliscor (SD Acrobatics)
Weavile (Swords Dance)
Gliscor (SD Acrobatics)