Other OU Playstyle of the Week - Stall

[Subject 18]

OU Playstyles

Shamelessly stolen OP from LilOuOn​

Welcome to the OU discussion of the different playstyles! The main purpose of this thread is to choose a playstyle every week (I'll choose it) and you, (yes, you), are going to be able to comment, give your opinion and suggest pokemons that should be considered when making a team around the style [posting teams is also allowed, just keep in mind that this is not the RMT forums, so if you want to post a team try to make it short and use sprites of pokes, explain how does the team work and post replays if possible]. Obviously, your comments must have connection with the chosen style, as well as solid arguments of why your comment(s) are valid. With this, newer players can decide what playstyle they like most and, of course, more experienced players can also expand their knowledge. Remember to be friendly with other people; if you disagree with someone's opinion don't slam with an aggressive response, just let everyone know what you think in a kind way. The links to discussions of each playstyle will be posted in the OP so everyone can read it at anytime!

Don't be afraid of posting! If you have a great offense, stall, etc team, just think about what to say and go for it! Don't forget that participating in this kind of threads gives you opportunity to earn that awesome Community Contributor badge! Be careful of what do you post! Quality posts will be rewarded, but mediocre comments will be deleted. Do your best and I hope that you like to contribute this thread!


Summary of the rules (Must read):

• Make quality posts. No one-lined posts.
• Your comments must be about the weekly playstyle chosen.
• No gimmicks. If you decided to post a team (or pokemon) don't suggest using pursuit Tauros to trap Latias and Latios while there is an overall better option named Tyranitar or Bisharp.
• Comment how the chosen style affects the current metagame and how it fairs in it.
• Support your team's posts with replays if possible. Explanation of them are a must.
• If you are comfortable, feel free to post one of your own teams and explain the process of making the team.
• Having a wide point of view is needed. Don't post that stall sucks because you always lose to it.
• Your new ideas must have strong arguments of why them should be considered.
• This one is important: We don't want this to become a debate of: "this metagame is stale and has no diversity due to X Pokemon/Playstyle". I will delete and those posts. This thread is here to make a discussion about the different playstyles, not to discharge all your hate against weather. Please, incoherent posts will be deleted and possibly penalized, so think about what are you going to write.
• For reference see the past OU Playstyles projects to guide you on what to discuss.

Past discussions:

• Week #1: Hyper Offense
• Week #2: Balance

Once borderline unplayable in BW2, stall has a made a resurgence in XY. Lead by the ridiculously fat Chansey, stall is able to combat the like of Greninja, Zard Y, and some of the new special attackers. With the buff to Defog, stall no longers solely relies on entry hazards to rack up damage but rather through Toxic, Burns and Seismic Toss damage. Some points of discussion: How does Stall fare in the current meta? How do the good players play stall successfully? How can you be innovative creative with stall while still being successful? Good frameworks?

 

[Pennington]

stay mad stall

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

Stall is still RIDICULOUSLY hard to play. Knock off, Landorus-I, HO, Bisharp, and stuff like Gengar, Kyurem-B, and Clefable still make stall hard to play. And because you keep the match going on longer, you are very prone to being haxed. Stall is definitely not for the faint of heart, and like most others out there, I find it infuriating to play against stall, though I typically always win because my hatred for it often makes me carry pokemon like Kyurem-B, Landorus, Gengar and Bisharp, very often in conjuction with one another. This is just me though. Despite all the negatives I pointed out, it's a very successful playstyle, very often seen at higher level play. Here are the sets I use for breaking stall:
(these sets are taken straight from my team so the nicknames are silly)


( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) (Kyurem-Black) @ Life Orb
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 44 Atk / 252 SAtk / 212 Spd
Lonely Nature
- Ice Beam
- Outrage
- Fusion Bolt
- Earth Power

This set aims to wallbreak(and stallbreak) by sheer power. I run a specially based mix, specially tailored to fuck stall up, and ALL walls, excluding fairy type walls. The 44 attack EVs are for Azumarill, which is not on stall but on offense, but that's a topic for a another discussion.



( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
(Landorus) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature/Naïve Nature
- Calm Mind/Knock Off
- Earth Power
- Focus Blast
- Psychic

This set is specifically made to break stall. Landorus-I's power is so fucking high that after 1 CM it 2HKOes standard chansey (same applies for after a knock off)

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 387-458 (54.9 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The rest of the moves either hit for neutral or SE damage against the rest of the stall team. This is one of the most feared sets landorus can run, and for good reason.

Gengbang (Gengar) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 148 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 SDef / 104 HP
Timid Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Substitute
- Taunt
- Shadow Ball
This set aims to break stall through strong STAB, taunts, and residual damage. With the decreasing popularity of Heatran on stall, this set's popularity has skyrocketed. The EVs live a giga drain from Mega Venusaur.

And lastly, I give a special mention to Mega Charizard X, not for its capabilities vs stall, but how it works IN stall. Stall players such as TFL and Ajwf have realized that Mega Charizard X has more reliable recovery, offensive presence, and about as good defensive typing as Mega Venusaur. It has been rising in popularity, and thus, may shoot down Gengar's popularity as a stallbreaker.

Simply put, stall HAS to be antimeta to counter new stallbreakers. Unfortunately, full stall is impossible because Landorus-I, Kyurem-B, and Gothitelle will pick your team apart effortlessly

 

[Lister-Kun]

Stall, though still a perfectly viable play style, has become harder and harder to play with every generation, such as with the introduction of moves like Psyshock and Secret Sword in Gen 5 to allow Special attackers to smash Special walls on their weaker Defensive side.
This gen Stall has taken yet another major blow, now that everyone and their mothers are spamming Knock Off and Stall Veterans such as Chansey now need to watch out. Additionally there are tons of offensive threats, both new and old, that pose a major threat to Stall, such as Landorus-I and M-Charizard X and Y. Any experienced and smart player can do work with a Stall team, but in my opinion its success is generally overshadowed by HO and Balance teams.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

I think stall's problem is that the pool of pokemon that actually fit the archetype is very small, so adapting back to new cores that aim to remove kebab Chansey is very hard. And if you do try to adapt (by not using stuff that has the offensive presence of dead fish) you risk being shoved into the "balanced" category :<

"See, this mon is really good on stall because it can check this really troublesome stall breaker."
"Yeah that's nice and all, but now your team is BALANCED AHAHAHA (BAN ME PLEASE)"

Also use SubToxic Aegislash. It's a really nice mon for stall teams imo.

 

[TFL]

Backing up what Smog Frog said, there is already a trend between the better stall builders: Using Charizard X as the team's Mega and dropping Chansey. Chansey just isn't reliable as it was a month or two ago. With Charizard X you gain Burn support and a Mon that can't be Burned itself, real offensive presence, along with a great check/counter to a few strong Pokemon, Thundurus and Zard Y (unlike Chansey, X isn't Pursuit bait) being the most notable. Full stall just shouldn't be a thing anymore, this is a meta with some of the most effective stall breakers we've seen (and are common), you are going have to be able to steal momentum and be able to turn the tables on your opponent.

 

[Ajwf]

Are we talking stall the style or "Stall" the 5 man group that people pair together anymore? (VenuTranQuagChanSkarm). To be honest, you're going to get wrecked at the upper ladder if you blindly play in those five any more due to it being so damn predictable.

Stall faces issues from pokemon like Landorus, Charizard-X and Kyub almost universally. Adamant ZardX w/outrage is kinda needed to break Quag, but besides that, universal. For the most part, Kyub is now the easiest to beat given fairies. It CAN run iron head but until that becomes commonplace, I'll just be running my Sylveon to Hyper Voice all you subbers (and, I can survive one LO Iron head with based sylveon).

On building a successful stall team... It really isn't easy if you're trying something new. This is one of the huge reasons that once a great team is built, you generally see a lot of copying... This is because how many ways can you actually counter ZardX? Things like Kyub/ZardX/Gengar... pokemon that are difficult by nature for stall leave stall few ways to dig out mainly due to stall's incredibly low speed. Offense kinda has the luxury of an abstract style at it's core (Eliminate the opposing team through some means) whereas stall is still consistently defined as a team meant to counter the meta.

However, it is unacceptable to see stall as stagnant as it has been for the last several months. Even with the restriction of huge powerhouses like ZardX and Kyub, stall has more weapons this gen. Of course, upper level stall players have their go-tos that don't look like VenuTran teams (why would you hold a venutran team on the upper ladder? People all have built counters for it) but the general trend of the masses still is VenuTran and the popularity of that core is still there around 1600. While 3 archtypes for offense exist/have existed (Double Bird, DeoSharp, Force of Nature), stall remains with one. So, you know, the kind of joy of it is trying to make the next big core/team.

Let's talk about a few of the components that shaped stall this gen, then...

Defog: In my mind, this is the Godsend to stall teams. While "My hazards can't stay up" is a consistent complaint, I've preached that this gen, SR is all you need. The metagame is rather rock weak... Pinsir-m, Charizards, Thundurus, Gyarados, Zapdos all have issues with this. You trade in spikes for being a little more static to the game. Taking advantage of defog is a great idea for stall, as well... It destroyed the concept of spin blockers and removed Jelicent from being such a need on stall. And this gen... Spin blockers would've been horrid. Knock off boosted? Bisharp A+ rank? Escadrill back? Please... I'll take defog with that in mind. Skarmory, Mandibuzz, Latias, Scizor-mega and Gliscor, all pokemon with excellent bulk and good options for stall in past generations, now can wield this move so we aren't sacrificing spots for Forrey, who literally does shit all other than hazard and spin.

Mega Evolutions. Notice I didn't say "Mega Venusaur", which people might think is more accurate here. Most of the megas are deceptively bulky. Mega TTar has stupid levels of bulk, but no recovery. Mega ZardX has some great bulk, and ZardY isn't lacking. Aggron... Just destroys the concept of bulk with that physical monstrosity... (Takes a +2 Mega Pinsir EQ). I've been using Mega Gyarados (Wreck baton pass teams please? I need them gone) and it has served me incredibly well. The megas give stall a free spot to have good bulk AND offensive pressence, something Heatran, Ttar and a very limited group of others could ever attest to last gen.

Fairies! Fairies have given stall a chance vs the number 1 should be banned to ubers slayer of stall last gen, Kyub. Sylveon, Clefable and a few others (still limited, but options are real) can actually beat Kyurem 1v1 making Kyub not so scarey a prospect anymore. Dragons like Latios, Hydregion (remember how that thing wrecked stall last gen? I do) and Haxorus suffer a bit every time they see fairies, which is lovely.

Banned Ubers: The biggest reason stall probably hasn't shifted much is lando-i. It's hard to counter outside of a select few mons. Without a doubt my least favorite pokemon in tier, closely followed by number 2 threat to every team, charizard-X. But Lando, Thundy, DeoS and Excadrill all have had varying impacts on stall. Exca is almost unnoticeable... it isn't good against the super bulky mons commonly seen on stall (aka Skarmory, Quag and occasionally M-venu). However, Deo-S/D have a whole playstle stall despises, DeoSharp... +2 bisharp will wreck many stalls down a quagsire (and grass knot lols?)... Flinch hax is also real, which is very annoying when it happens. Landorus-I is perhaps the best wall breaker in the meta given the ability to destroy venuTran, knock off chansey's eviolite and destroy skarmory/quag on any neutral attacks. Thundy can't be underestimate with his shocking NP sets and general taunting of chansey. The occasional Defiant thundy can also hurt.

The future of stall doesn't look bright right yet, at least in terms of change. There are certainly mons who can change it, with the likes of Sylveon, P2, Chesnaught, Gyarados, Aggron-mega and Gliscor basically untouched as of so far.

 

[WebBowser]

My personal opinion on chansey is that it fits better on bulky offense teams then stall teams atm, as bulky offensive teams can use chansey's wish passes to create much needed offensive momentum and really appreciate chansey's ability to reliably spread para and/or heal status effects, whereas most good stallmons have some form of recovery and are usually not particularly crippled by status (or at the very least, stall finds it much easier to fit status absorbers on their team). And they really don't care about chansey spreading para and there are prolly better hazard setters out there.

Out of curiosity, has anyone tried megados as a stallmon? I remember hearing that idea being tossed around about a month ago or so.

 

[Ajwf]

Out of curiosity, has anyone tried megados as a stallmon? I remember hearing that idea being tossed around about a month ago or so.

Gyarados @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 172 Def / 88 Spd
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Fang
- Rest
- Taunt

Yes... Although I haven't finished yet. Perfect neutral coverage is perfect (outside surskit) and enough speed to outspeed 44 rotom and jolly azumarill is useful...? Not refined yet as I doubt I can OHKO a rotom from full HP, but the set is amazing. I could actually replace ice fang, that's how little I need it, but Taunt is glorious for BP and stall countering as well as stopping common switch-ins like Ferrothorn. Gyarados-m could have a full page on simply how good he is due to that type change. I use him as a primary counter to ZardX in base, as well as a check to lando and occasionally keldeo. In Mega, he's an aegi/bisharp counter, still checks ZardX well and takes rotom wash. The amount of skill required, I've noticed, is kinda high given that you do switch over so many counters/checks by mega evolving, so playing your opponent to lose the pokes I check in base form first is rather important, even with secondary checks on that team.

 

[Lister-Kun]

There are certainly mons who can change it, with the likes of Sylveon, P2, Chesnaught, Gyarados, Aggron-mega and Gliscor basically untouched as of so far.

I'm surprised that not many people are using Chesnaught. Its typing, stats, movepool, and to a lesser extent its ability lets it easily deal with a number of threats like Aegislash, M-Gyarados, (M-)Tyranitar, and more.

 

[Jayd]

I'm seeing a lot of discussion about stallbreakers but haven't seen anyone mention Mega Medicham. While not as common as the others being discussed I think it deserves to be mentioned as its ability to smash through walls in unsurpassed (notably including OHKOing M-Venusaur, Heatran, AND Chansey), and it easily outspeeds most stallmons.

I'd be really interested to hear how stall teams might prepare for Megacham, if there is in fact any way to prepare. Perhaps you need to run one check who is fast enough to outspeed/prioritize and KO? In that case you still need a ton of skill and prediction to not have Megacham wreak havoc and then just switch out when your check comes in. There's no real counter to it in the metagame as nothing can switch in more than a couple times.

 

[WebBowser]

Gyarados @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 172 Def / 88 Spd
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Fang
- Rest
- Taunt

Yes... Although I haven't finished yet. Perfect neutral coverage is perfect (outside surskit) and enough speed to outspeed 44 rotom and jolly azumarill is useful...? Not refined yet as I doubt I can OHKO a rotom from full HP, but the set is amazing. I could actually replace ice fang, that's how little I need it, but Taunt is glorious for BP and stall countering as well as stopping common switch-ins like Ferrothorn. Gyarados-m could have a full page on simply how good he is due to that type change. I use him as a primary counter to ZardX in base, as well as a check to lando and occasionally keldeo. In Mega, he's an aegi/bisharp counter, still checks ZardX well and takes rotom wash. The amount of skill required, I've noticed, is kinda high given that you do switch over so many counters/checks by mega evolving, so playing your opponent to lose the pokes I check in base form first is rather important, even with secondary checks on that team.

Hmmmm, perhaps replace ice fang with scald? Surprise burns are always cool, and you keep most of your coverage while having some super cool mixed-type stuff.

Also, doesn't rest put your gyara out of commission for 2 turns? How do you play around that? Do you have a super reliable cleric?

 

[Jukain]

Gyarados @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 172 Def / 88 Spd
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Fang
- Rest
- Taunt

Yes... Although I haven't finished yet. Perfect neutral coverage is perfect (outside surskit) and enough speed to outspeed 44 rotom and jolly azumarill is useful...? Not refined yet as I doubt I can OHKO a rotom from full HP, but the set is amazing. I could actually replace ice fang, that's how little I need it, but Taunt is glorious for BP and stall countering as well as stopping common switch-ins like Ferrothorn. Gyarados-m could have a full page on simply how good he is due to that type change. I use him as a primary counter to ZardX in base, as well as a check to lando and occasionally keldeo. In Mega, he's an aegi/bisharp counter, still checks ZardX well and takes rotom wash. The amount of skill required, I've noticed, is kinda high given that you do switch over so many counters/checks by mega evolving, so playing your opponent to lose the pokes I check in base form first is rather important, even with secondary checks on that team.

?_? ?_? ?_?

No STAB, Rest sans Sleep Talk.........

 

[Ajwf]

?_? ?_? ?_?

No STAB, Rest sans Sleep Talk.........

Resttalk mega would've been meh at best and single attack, taunt is too needed. At the time I started, I had two heal bell users. And resttalk is such a gamble as is, I'd rather have the extra utility.

 

[Jukain]

Resttalk mega would've been meh at best and single attack, taunt is too needed. At the time I started, I had two heal bell users. And resttalk is such a gamble as is, I'd rather have the extra utility.

RestTalk Mega would probably be pretty bad, that's true -- but I also don't think relying on Rest + cleric as your sole method of recovery is exactly the best idea in the world for a stall mon with no form of passive recovery. I'd at least run Waterfall over Ice Fang on that, but I don't think Megados is really the best stall mon in the first place, as something that has zero form of recovery outside Rest + cleric, not even Leftovers, and that's competing for a slot with Quagsire.

 

[dice]

i've used mixed hippo / avest tornadus-t / aegislash / amoonguss / wisp zard-x / skarmory in a few tournaments (mainly smogon tour) for a while and it performs really consistently compared to a lot of stalls i've seen

i really enjoy tornadus-t on stall atm. it checks landorus well while just being a huge annoyance to offense in general. fast knock offs are just such a huge boon and it's often underrated. try it out instead of tossing on a chansey for your landorus answer

echoing that spikes typically suck, especially on stall. only have a handful of builds that run them. not really worth the effort setting them. my logic is that if you waste 4 turns setting max spikes / sr and your opponent can double switch only ONCE to get off a defog, it's a -4 for you in terms of momentum. that's 4 turns you lost when you could have been toxicing or phazing or something. bleh

i've seen ctc use a similar gyarados set in ost and i think it sucks but power to ya

 

[Ninja Charizard]

I'm seeing a lot of discussion about stallbreakers but haven't seen anyone mention Mega Medicham. While not as common as the others being discussed I think it deserves to be mentioned as its ability to smash through walls in unsurpassed (notably including OHKOing M-Venusaur, Heatran, AND Chansey), and it easily outspeeds most stallmons.

I'd be really interested to hear how stall teams might prepare for Megacham, if there is in fact any way to prepare. Perhaps you need to run one check who is fast enough to outspeed/prioritize and KO? In that case you still need a ton of skill and prediction to not have Megacham wreak havoc and then just switch out when your check comes in. There's no real counter to it in the metagame as nothing can switch in more than a couple times.

Aegislash.

Bar Fire Punch, there is nothing Medicham can do to it. And even Fire Punch it is able to survive. And them deal ridiculous damage with Shadow Ball, or even Shadow Sneak.

 

[Jayd]

Aegislash.

Bar Fire Punch, there is nothing Medicham can do to it. And even Fire Punch it is able to survive. And them deal ridiculous damage with Shadow Ball, or even Shadow Sneak.

But it's perfectly viable to run Fire Punch, and Aegislash can't come in more than once on that. Can't count Aegi as "the answer" if it depends on the battler not running a perfectly viable move, although it often does the job.

 

[Sweep]

It's nice that people are branching out and playing with different cores. Kael stall-style teams (http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-1056) were fucking everywhere during the 1st half of SPL and while it was an effective team at the time, the metagame has shifted out of its favor with the increase of Pokemon like Knock Off Landorus-I, Specs Keldeo (which forces that team into a 50/50 every time it comes in), etc. The metagame does seem to have shifted in favor of offense the past couple of months, with powerful wallbreakers and DeoSharp hazard teams everywhere. Baton Pass -- fortunately only used by bad players on the ladder; you'll never see this in tournaments (isn't that right C05ta :p) -- trolls stall teams lacking Haze hard. I've also noticed an increase of Taunt users, in particular Taunt DD Megados. Taunt prevents recovery and provides a way to stop Defog for teams that do not rely solely on Bisharp to serve as a Defog deterrent. Stall teams need to be prepared for Taunt, but smart switching and light attacks such as Seismic Toss will wear out most Taunt users (Alakazam/Thundurus/Gyarados).

With that said, Stall is still very viable so long you have a reliable win condition; Calm Mind Clefable and ZardX come to mind. Stall teams that do not have a way of finishing off teams leave themselves susceptible to last mon standing sweepers. It's also very hard avoiding critical hits for extended periods of time, making something with real offensive presence that still fits the mold of your team very nice to have. Gen 6 was kind to both offense and stall, granting offense stuff like Talonflame and the Charizard formes while giving Stall Mega Venusaur, Fairies to check Dragons, etc. Both sides can take advantage of Defog as well; stall in particular really needs it because hazard-stacking would be too easy otherwise, thanks to stall's inherent lack of pressure.

My favorite Pokemon to run on Stall is Gliscor. Its useful typing enables it to check important physical threats such as Landorus-T, TTar lacking Ice Punch, Garchomp, Excadrill lacking Air Balloon, and Terrakion. In addition to checking these threats, a combination of Toxic, Protect, and Substitute can stall out a strong number of threats due to Gliscor's strong physical bulk, solid natural speed, and Earthquake nailing the Steel and Poison types that carry an immunity to Gliscor's STAB. Packing something to switch into Skarmory, such as Heatran, is important since Gliscor cannot do anything to it. The goal is simple: switch Gliscor into something it checks, use Substitute to scout the switch, and Toxic. If the opponent is slower, you can use Substitute and Protect repeatedly until the opposing Pokemon succumbs to Toxic. Even if the opponent switches to something like Latios or another Pokemon that outspeeds Gliscor, you can still hit it with Toxic and protect once before switching out, and 2 rounds of Toxic+LO recoil+SR will wear out Latios/other special attackers quickly.

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 56 Spd / 252 HP / 200 Def
Bold Nature
- Earthquake
- Toxic
- Substitute
- Protect

(Note that contrary to popular belief, Taunt over Protect is VERY good on this set to dick with opposing Stall and send Skarmory into a spiraling depression, but fits better on balanced teams since Gliscor cannot live as long or stall out stuff like Rotom-W. It also turns Gliscor into more of a stallbreaker than a toxic staller so I regard Taunt variants as a completely different set).

One more thing: Stall not only needs to be prepared for the metagame's most dangerous threats, but having more than one check to them is crucial. Relying solely on Skarmory to check threats like Mega Pinsir and Tyranitar is dangerous since offensive teams like to stack Pokemon with similar counters, and poor Skarmory can be overwhelmed very easily. Along with Skarmory, one can run a physically defensive Landorus to serve as a back-up (note that Lando should never be a PRIMARY check to either one of those since it gets worn down quickly). You can usually get away pick packing only one solid check to niche stuff like Entei though.

 

[doughboy]

Stall definitely made a comeback a little awhile ago. I mean it was significant enough for people to try to seek out new ways to to break stall with stuff like Taunt+Will-o-Wisp Gengar, Landorus-I, and Mega-Gyarados (Mold Breaker goes through Unaware). I think it is just a natural progression of the metagame where offense responded to stall, and stall just can not respond to the changes as quickly because the pool of Pokemon that are huge offensive threats are smaller than the pool of Pokemon that can actually check those offensive threats.

By the way Landorus-I isn't just a pain in the ass for stall because it has such immense power, but it is resistant to most forms of residual damage. As a Flying-type, it avoids Spikes, but has a neutrality to Stealth Rock due to its Ground-typing. Lando-I's Ground-typing also makes it immune to sand damage. Lastly, it doesn't suffer from any recoil from its own offensive moves and doesn't have to switch out often (like a Choice Band / Specs user) because it isn't locked into any moves, minimizing SR damage.

I think one of the most underrated tools at the moment for stall teams is Knock Off. Arguably, Knock Off is more of a hindrance to offensive teams than defensive teams. On defensive teams, you can be pretty safe if your Leftovers are Knock'ed off on a Pokemon that has reliable recovery. This is especially the case with Skarmory, because it has reliable recovery in addition to having a typing that is immune to Spikes but neutral to SR (doesn't have to make up for Deo-D Spikes damage). Anyway, if you use Knock Off versus an offensive team, there is a strong chance that you are going to nerf the damage output of the Pokemon coming in. Offensive teams rely on items a lot in order to increase their damage output and rely on them to break walls; whether it be Life Orb, Choice Specs, Choice Band, or the plates. A power reduction of 30% or 50% is huge, why wouldn't you try for it! You should go it especially because Knock Off can be thrown out so easily. Considering that an opponent might build their team around a calculation to break a target while having an item on (ex. Life Orb), getting rid of that can throw a real wrench in their plans. Understandably, a smart opponent will A. try to bring their Mega-Evolution on the Knock Off or B. try to keep sending in an already itemless Pokemon on a Knock Off in order to preserve their other offensive Pokemon. Thus, it is important to have more than one Pokemon with Knock Off, and maybe have it be slightly unexpected. Some Pokemon that can have Knock Off on defensive teams include:
*bold for ones that might be unexpected

Madibuzz, Sableye, Ferrothorn, Mega-Venusaur, Gliscor, Scizor, Assault Vest Tangrowth, Alomomola, and Mew

It makes a huge difference. For example, one of the most thrown out Pokemon to a Knock Off is Keldeo. Some people think they have the advantage because they were able to get it in on a resisted hit, but boy is it a mistake:

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Mega Venusaur: 146-172 (40.1 - 47.2%) -- 40.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Keldeo Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Mega Venusaur: 98-116 (26.9 - 31.8%) -- 50.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 187-222 (57.7 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 126-148 (38.8 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

With Choice Specs Knock'ed Off, Venusaur doesn't have to be afraid from getting lured in and then 2HKO'ed by Hidden Power Flying. Coming in on Keldeo is a safe option now. SubToxic Aegislash goes from always getting 2HKO'ed even after a King's Shield to never being 2HKO'ed. I never got around to making a team around it myself, but using multiple Knock Off users on stall to limit the opponent's power is a legitimate strategy.

 

[timetock]

Well there's always the evil pranksters.

Whimsicott @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 Spd / 248 HP / 8 Def
Jolly Nature
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Knock Off
- Encore

With the blazing speed and the oh-so-annoying ability prankster, whimsicott has access to priority leech seed, substitute, and encore. Yikes. It's typing allows it to soak any sort of seed attack or dragon-type attack and nab a quick encore, then subseed the subsequent switch-ins. It knocks off crucial items like eviolite, toxic orb, and leftovers. Give whimsicott taunt or worry seed if you want.

 

[ItoI6]

Mega-Scizor/Gliscor is a pretty great physically defensive stall core that deals with common threats to stall like Aegislash, Bisharp and especially LO kyu-b pretty well while being strong win conditions in their own right. Ka Kaz uses it on his team and ive got two different accounts in showdown 1900+ atm that use this on semi-stall which is a lot better than full 6 man stall atm. Most other effective stall teams are using like 3 or 4 solid stall pokes paired with 2 or 3 stall breakers of their own like cm keldeo or sd bisharp which gives you actual room for counterplay if they have lando or mega-medi rather than auto-losing at team select. Ditto is also pretty under-rated atm and is much more fun and rewarding to use than weak ass quagsire and gives you a saftey net for Chansey who cant really be beaten by any non-boosting special attacker. Gothitelle also beats opposing stall so its pretty popular on stall itself funnily enough.

And Baton pass is really awful for stall to face which is kind of holding it down as well cuz theres just has no answers at all without specific niche stuff. I know people say haze quagsire beats it but it really doesn't lol though it does give you some counterplay at least. Sableye gets scoffed at a lot for being used poorly by noobs but it deserves some credit for actually beating bpass and still being a somewhat decent pokemon which has other not outclassed uses. Stall will get buffed a little bit when its finally nerfed but its still not enough to make full stall really viable semi-stall is the future yo.

 

[Ajwf]

Semi-stall seems like the "best play" on that, but I've just started to look for faster mons to use on stall. I used AV TornT early in the gen and loved the speed + passive bulk. I ran Cobal recently and while it literally was hit/miss (stone edge for checking ZardY/Pinsir), it was also nice to have the fast taunt/rocker and bisharp counter. So I wouldn't say semi-stall is the better version as the philosophy is massively different, but speed is definitely a great asset in conjunction with roost/taunt/subs and some other status moves.

Well, Semi-Stall in my mind is just five defensive pokemon working to give a sweeper the clear. I think TFL was alluding more to his team that uses Dugtrio to remove some issue threats. I run faster taunters to shut down some slow setup sweepers (MG clefable...) and hazard setters. In a way, stall teams should run pokemon with stats of a wall and movepools of a wallbreaker. That's how I've built most of my teams this gen: Good bulk, lots of attacks.

Statuses like toxic give your opponent a lot of turns to hax you or easy heal bell situations. While the general classification of status stall and hazard stall exist, both have fatal chinks in the fact that heal bell and defog respectively counter it. Then you combine the two... but heal bell/defog still should win. In that simple mindset, when you're focusing on statusing instead of attacking, you just lose pressure and, in the end, games.

 

[fail_at_battling]

Mew is a very underrated pokemon, but thanks to its stats and movepool, it can actually be a great help to stall. People always seem to underestimate 100/100 bulk, but with full investment, it can be very difficult to break through (even if only one stat is fully invested in). For example:
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 127-150 (31.4 - 37.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mew: 153-180 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 178-210 (44 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (and power decreases afterwards)
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mew: 274-325 (67.8 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (and power decreases afterwards)
Roost allows mew to sponge these attacks then either retaliate with weak attacks or provide support through its movepool, including will-o-wisp, heal bell, and defog. Will-o-wisp allows mew to become even more untouchable physically (maybe even run some more special defense investment). Heal bell is essential if your team is vulnerable to toxic or burn, and defog is important since stall will often switch a lot in order to check wallbreakers. Finally, even when uninvested, its special attack is still high enough to do enough damage to 4HKO most pokemon at neutral damage with STAB psychic, while simultaneously avoiding being KO'd itself with through recovery.
Unfortunately, mew's typing is one of its greatest weaknesses, especially for stalling. It is weak to knock off, cannot touch ttar or bisharp if it does not have WoW, and especially gets wrecked by shadow ball aegislash. Also, because of full defensive investment, it is quite slow, allowing it to be outsped by pokemon with much lower base speeds.


Personally, I feel that the problem for stall is not only the strength of wallbreakers, but also the diversity of them. It is difficult to assemble a team to check every common powerhouse (some people have already mentioned landorus-i as an example, and aegislash is another threat). Some of the greatest threats are mixed attackers and "mixed" attackers like keldeo and aegislash, because specific counters rather than blanket walls must be used against them. Unaware pokemon such as quagsire and clefable are required for pure stall, since pure stall cannot get rid of set-up sweepers before they set-up too much (for example, mega gyarados, manaphy, or some variations of the genies). Clefable deserves special mention because it can serve as a mixed unaware wall that can also set-up itself for both defenses and for offense. It also hurts that stall must survive so many turns, because that allows for the possibility of crits or defense drops, which can cause 2HKOs from wallbreakers. Pure stall is not impossible (I somehow managed to reach a max of 1901 elo with it), but due to the sheer diversity and usage of wallbreakers, it can be difficult to check all of the most used pokemon and strategies.

 

[Ajwf]

A few things that I've tried experimenting with over the generation might be interesting to discuss. A while back, I created a project for a possible branch of stall, Momentum Stall. While the concept is rather limited by bulky pokemon with Volt-Turn, U-turn at first glance, other moves such as intimidate, regenerator and natural cure also proved to maintain momentum. As stall consistently gets bitten by being on the defensive, I wanted to change the concept of defense from "switching to being in the best position" aka losing momentum on that turn to "Always being in the best position, or close to it".

I'll just link the team here... As it was built a while ago, the "Omg ZardXY weakness" is irrelevant to me... It was a Lucario-M era team. I could adjust it but the concept remains. Stall this way could easily be in a defensive position as soon as needed, not a turn later. The major point was I could stop Set up sweepers from having much time to do any work and counters to wall breakers wouldn't be down 50% coming in. I do a similar strategy with a bulky Eelektross to dugtrio right now, mainly for ZardX (who likes resisting VoltTurn) and Heatran.

I can say it was largely effective and could be again if I wanted it to be... I'd need a few extra counters but with a volt turn core of 3-4 and a few regenereator/intimidate ability users, a stall team can basically go easy mode (it is, in fact, a fantastic beginner stall team style).

Thoughts?