I generally disagree with a lot of what you guys are saying but I'm too outnumbered to argue haha :P
Roadhog and Zarya have great damage which is why they're such good tanks, but D.va is similar in that she trades damage for insane survivability most games. Also the number of people who get hit by D.va ult is too funny, just wait for the Zarya to burn shields / Rein to die and it's at least a kill (if not more) on capture point / hybrid maps. Also if you have a good McCree who can aim then by all means use him, but if you're platinum or lower you probably don't (be honest with yourself lol). I'd much rather have decent healing + helix rocket + mobility hero + decent long range damage than a character with no healing / no rocket / very limited mobility that doesn't do damage because they can't aim well, that's just asking to get picked off early in a teamfight :P
I've also never encountered DPS (as in viable DPS, not like Torb lol) who are so bad that they won't do things like kill an ulting Reaper when I use Transcendence, if you've had to play with that I'm so sorry lol but generally even bad DPS can get stuff like that done. But if you do have those teammates I totally understand how Zarya / Zen come in handy in those situations, and even if the team's DPS players are ok / good, Zarya / Zen are still great heros so it's not a bad thing if you use them or anything haha.
I'm not necessarily straying from 2/2/2 is BAD, but just please let me know why you're doing so. As a support I hate getting a random 3rd DPS for no reason like ???. But if you're going McCree because our DPS is Junkrat / Tracer and they can't kill an enemy Pharah and you tell me your reasoning then I 100% understand, you know?
Rant about why I think you can carry with support:
My main thing about supports carrying is it's so much easier to do than with DPS. Support carrying is really just good positioning (HIGH GROUND), saving your ults for teamfights, and knowing how to prioritize heals. With DPS you actually have to aim lol which a lot of Platinum and lower players honestly cannot do (hell I know I can't very well lol). Seriously the number of DPS players who are choosing McCree / Hanzo and not hitting their target consistently enough, the number of Genji's / Tracer's who are just barely getting 1v1'd by Zen, etc is very high. And we all like to pretend that these players aren't us because one game we got 5 gold medals with Soldier but be honest with yourself, is this really not you? Because so many "how 2 carry in ranked" guides and just general posts on Reddit and other places go under the assumption that that the players who are reading those posts can actually aim competently with a DPS character and that's not the case in a lot of situations. Which I think in turn inflates a person's ego ("I took the time to read a post that assumes I can play DPS so I must be able to!!1!") and makes them more likely to pick a DPS character when they can't actually aim lol. And even if they can aim that still doesn't mean they can correctly manage a DPS hero's abilities (Reaper's Wrath Form, Tracer's Rewind, Genji's Dash) and therefore can end up feeding even with good aim. And then these same players with inflated egos get pissed when their team loses and blame their team even though they had just as much to do with the loss as everyone else (usually even more if they're compromising a good team comp for "lol I need 2 carry with DPS xDDDDD").
Now you may be saying "Well if have a game where my DPS sucks doesn't that mean a support isn't going to help them and we're still going to lose"? A lot of people in this thread have been saying yes but I'm going to say no. I mean if your team is REALLY bad (such as not killing Reaper during Trans bad) then yes, or if the enemy team is just better / more coordinated then yes, but in a lot of situations I feel a support can actually turn a shitty DPS into a decent DPS. Combine this with a good team comp (I love 2/2/2 because you get two support ults and two fat heros who can usually do good damage) and the fact that you understand good positioning (or at least should, it's very simple to understand) and you can usually win teamfights. Like the ass Genji who is just barely dying to Zen won't if he has Harmony Orb, and the McCree who's getting healed / damage buffed by Mercy can actually accomplish something in a team fight if you allow them to survive teamfights. Compare that to a team who is 6 players who think they need to carry with DPS and end up with only one (usually angry) support you'll usually win those games. Combine that with how powerful support ults are and I think supports are very easy to play and potentially carry with.
At the end of the day if you can play a competent DPS then it can help your team, moreso than supports yes, but if you're not honest with yourself, or are unable to truly gauge your skill, then there's a good chance you'll be doing more harm then good for your team by picking a DPS hero (assuming you're compromising a good team comp to do so; if you already have two tanks / two supports than by all means go DPS). For comparison as someone who made the climb from Gold to Diamond, my Rein and Mercy win rates are at ~70% / ~60%, respectively, while my Lucio winrate (who I've played by far the most) is above 50%. But I don't think I've ever won I game where I've chosen a DPS hero. Maybe that's just a "me" thing but the idea that Mercy is just horrible in comp is absurd to me, if you focus on positioning, know who to prioritize heals to, and camp with ult, you can do very well and often times win (especially on Defense).
Also
jumpluff I actually love a well-played Mei / Symmetra on their correct maps, but I don't think I've ever had or played against a Hanzo who would have been better as someone else :P He just demands too much skill IMO, and I never want a Hanzo main on my team ever (even if they can, in theory, do well). As for 2/3/1, it can work but in that scenario the team actually has to actively protect the healer or the healer needs to be very good with their escape options, otherwise you lose support ult too early and are very likely to lose the game. That's why dual support with Zen works very well because then you have two powerful support ults and a Zen can prioritize someone like Winston / Genji with Discord in order to help the other support survive (assuming you're playing back line Zen, which you should, don't tunnel vision damage you guys, you are labeled a support for a reason !_!)
I wouldn't say Zarya/Roadhog are good tanks because they do a lot of damage haha. Reinhardt is basically the most consistent 'main tank' in the game. I should have brought up the topic of the definition of roles first though. Basically don't follow the in-game classifications since they're just super rough guidelines, and are more likely determined by their kits rather than how effective they are at whichever role. Zarya is basically a DPS-Tank, no doubt on that. I personally, and some people do agree on that Roadhog isn't a proper tank. All he has is the HP of a tank and that's about it. He doesn't block damage or provide the pushing power for his teammates. He doesn't enable his team like what a traditional tank eg Reinhardt does. All he does is punish people for being in his sightline. Basically a bodyshot sniper in my eyes lolllll. But yea all these are incredibly subjective and depends on your point of view.
I do agree that Plat and below, S76 is probably more effective due to lower accuracy requirement, and better self sustain. Which brings me to the point, the meta is different at different ranks of play. Which is also why I brought up 2/2/2 isn't the be all end all composition, but it's still more or less very reliable when in doubt. Oh and not to worry, Death Blossom Reapers aren't the only things players fail to kill haha. It's actually the problem of many players tunnel visioning and ignoring a lot of things that are happening or otherwise oblivious. An ulting Reaper is a free kill if you're protected by Transcendence. But players might not see it that way. They might just ignore him and go like hey that Mercy pick is more important even though she's like 30m away and unlikely to be killed at this moment. They don't comprehend how free kills are as important if not more so than an unreliable Mercy pick. Or you know they just had no idea the Reaper was ulting behind them for some reason simply because they didn't die to it >_> It happens haha.
As a support main myself, I have no qualms if I'm the solo healer as long as I see that the composition has sufficient sustain and what not. It may or may not be ideal to solo heal in certain cases, but I can make do with that. Most of the time I do expect to solo heal anyways, and occasionally actually prefer that to be the case so that I can build ult faster as long as people aren't taking too much damage. If people adamantly want to run 3 DPS, go ahead. Just keep in mind the heal priority and that you have to purposefully prioritize some players over others to maximize chances of winning. There are also things like 'bad healing' like extending to heal a teammate that are definitely going to die. All that does is probably feed more ults. If they aren't comfortable with healing, then it might actually be better for them to just go DPS if that's what they're more confident with, even though it may hurt the composition a little. The 'ideal' composition isn't just based on the meta. It's also based on the strengths and weaknesses of your team and the enemies' team.
Re: support carrying. I think I posted on reddit or something before about playing supports vs playing dps, though I'm not too sure if that's what you mean. The requirements of playing supports to their maximum potential is basically everything from a DPS minus aim and plus other things like heal priority etc. Everything needs good positioning and ult management etc. Supports don't have it any easier due to lower aim requirement when there will definitely be flankers to worry about, people solo ulting supports. All these are more prominent problems that supports face, and have a much smaller window for error. It's to the point where counting cooldowns, while useful for all players, is more relevant as a support. Like does Winston have his jump, Roadhog hook, and so on, and you have to change your positioning accordingly all the time because a lot of skills will be used specifically to target supports. It isn't as punishing if you're playing like Mei and you have no idea whether Winston can jump you or not. And the most effective supports still have amazing aim, especially on like Zen/Ana. Well actually, aim requirement is a thing to be properly effective as Zen/Ana. You're pretty much expected to deal DPS as Zen to complement his subpar healing. You need a little bit of aim with Ana to land heals on more finicky teammates and some clutch saves. But if you want some self protection as Ana, learning how to noscope enemies is pretty important too. Though I personally still like punishing some poor attempts from flankers with like Mercy pistol if I don't feel threatened at all lol. Not exactly sure if that's what you're talking about so eh xd hahaaa
If people do want to carry/play on non-support despite bad aim, you can play less aim intensive heroes and basically focus on other aspects like positioning, cooldown management etc. Winston is really good to just repeatedly punish supports if they can't focus you for doing that. Just jump in the moment they're not protected and they're dead in like 5s barring self heal from Lucio/Ana or second healer. Reaper's not too bad if you can shred tanks by just being in their face though you'd lose out against the squishes who have smaller hitboxes. There's a few options yea. I personally don't see aim as being one of the more important factors to playing well in this game. Game sense is probably way more important and will help you even if you're playing DPS.
Yea the problem of overestimating oneself is real and is a huge trap. Also the medal system is very misleading and people can be like I have gold elim gold damage I must be good. The medal stats are pretty irrelevant at judging skill without the context of the game (which is also why blizz pls stop using stats to affect rank changes).
"Well if have a game where my DPS sucks doesn't that mean a support isn't going to help them and we're still going to lose". Well, you might be underestimating how much teammates can actually do to actively harm the effectiveness of supports. Feeding basically removes your ability to heal them, unless you're going for 'ult feeding heals' which you shouldn't be doing. Overextending, regardless of whether they feed or not, also affects how much healing they can receive. If they have issues with positioning and staying alive (not even with aim), they're going to severely limit your heal output and there's nothing you can do about that without putting yourself at unnecessary risks as a support. While Harmony Orb on Genji going deep is usually a good thing, it doesn't matter if the Genji doesn't know when he should initiate and blindly tries to fight against a McCree, Reinhardt, Zarya, all just to kill the protected Mercy. Your healing there won't be helping him survive anything. The matter of whether or not a player survives a fight isn't determined by how much healing they are receiving. It is determined by the player's decisions. A player with good positioning and engagement will most likely survive/win the fight with or without healing, though healing will provide an advantage. No one should be expecting to come up on top of a fight simply because they are getting heals unless they're running a pocket strategy like el presidente or Pharmercy. Most damage by any player will out damage any amount of healing unless you're Ana. Healing does help with some 2HKO benchmarks like not getting 140-70 headshot-bodyshot by McCree, but to be fair
it won't actually help because chip damage is everywhere and McCree isn't going to be the only thing shooting at you, so realistically you'll still get 2HKOed, and that's without bringing into things like damage amp and discord. Healing isn't a reliable 'enabler' in OW. If you're going to die, you're probably going to die with or without heals for the most part. This is probably a very touchy topic that most people would disagree with though. I'd say healing helps with the battle of attrition and farming of support ults. Players being actively healed can offer more poke damage, but it doesn't enable them to win fights. Players themselves have to make the conscious effort of making sure they can receive heals in between fights. This comes with game sense. And if players don't have sufficient game sense, basically healing isn't going to make a difference.
Support ults are only as powerful as the teammates that are affected by it. A 3 man Rez isn't necessarily better than the 1 man Rez you make for the most effective player on the team if they're the one carrying the weight of the team. You can Sound Barrier all 5 other teammates but realistically it depends on how many people on the team knows how to make good use of it for it to be effective. That's the strength of supports. You amplify strengths and mitigate weaknesses. You cannot play support effectively without keeping that in mind unless you're playing on an equal 6 stack. I personally wouldn't say the 2 support team would inherently have an advantage over a 1 support team. I'd rather have 1 good support and 1 good tank/dps carry than 2 good support. You really have to multiply whatever strength there is, and if it isn't sufficient, you're basically screwed for the most part unless the enemy support are really poor like a Lucio on near perma speed aura or Ana tunneling on enemies.
So yea, while people have to be careful not to overestimate themselves on DPS, if the team is really not pulling its weight and you're the support and feel like you can definitely do more as DPS then go ahead if you know what you're doing. Or play Zen who is also basically a DPS / Hybrid. Just gotta make do and be very selective about your healing lol.
I mostly played Mercy in S1, but half the time I really just decided to lower my heal output and screw it by going Zen solo heal even in KOTH and with the help of my party we basically turned the whole game around. And there were times I just went Ana to farm ults and then spam heals on party members and give them the boost to roll with. I wouldn't say that Mercy is bad for comp, but design wise, she's pretty bad for carrying due to her reliance on teammate performance regardless if you can protect yourself from all the Genji/Tracer etc. Heals can't compensate for game sense or the lack of, and that's basically the only thing Mercy can do besides Rez / occasional damage amp. IIRC Zen has the highest win rate for me in S1 even though I've been using him pre-buff lol.
So yeaaaaa if you really want to talk about carrying, DPS / hybrids are by far the most effective ones. Not to say that you can't strictly carry as a support, the most game changing ones are still the DPS when we're talking about uncoordinated play. You can be the best Mercy ever and never die but that won't win you games if your team doesn't do well enough despite all your heals. Whereas if you're a higher tier DPS then you can just do your DPS thing and you will exert a larger influence on the game. This is also why you don't see support mains like Chips playing healers in soloq. If they're already effectively better as DPS than their teammates, they're just going to play DPS to carry rather than with pure support, not including the fact that DPS are more interesting to watch. Ster however does soloq as Ana a lot, but Ana again is the only healer who has any chance of outhealing damage, and I wouldn't call him a support main; he probably just found Ana fun and still does respectable damage when necessary. It's just not as effective or worth the effort to carry as a support. But that's not to say that supports don't have a large influence on games. You do what you're best at, or what you're better at than the rest of the team and compensate for weaknesses within in if possible. If you're the best at support but the team damage just isn't cutting it, you gotta have to trade your healing for damage with Zen.
Also omg rofl sorry if I ramble too much xD if all that made any sense haha
Edit: I forgot to mention that high ground isn't necessarily good positioning as a support, since you might have emphasized that. It depends on the situation. Like if majority of the team is on low ground except for like one guy maybe Widow, you probably want to be together with the majority as they offer more protection unless they're too far out. Also if you're Mercy, it might be safer at times to stay on low ground then fly back to that Widow or whoever. This is a safer route compared to flying from widow on high ground to team since you are retreating, and putting distance from the enemy front line. If you're like Zen, you should only remain high ground alone if you have a complete sight line on flanks or your team isn't ahead and can drop back down immediately when necessary. It usually is good but not always.