Pokémon Black 2 and White 2 (DS, June in JP, Fall in EU/NA/AU) - Updated May 12th

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I don't know why everyone hates entry hazards so much. Entry hazards are an absolute NECESSITY because if we didn't have them people could just have focus sash on everything. And unless I'm mistaken item clause isn't included in standard rules.

I had one more crazy idea. You know how being burned lowers your pokemon's attack?? What if there was a new status condition that lowered special attack instead??
well, I accept thatentry hazards are a part of the game, but I can't accept that one hazard will ALWAYS hit you unless you have MB, MC, or MG.

also on that note.....

And unless I'm mistaken item clause isn't included in standard rules.
this is something I never got. why is this underused? if anything,using this more would stop many overuses of Stall.
 

Codraroll

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Okay, looks like I have to eat my own words here a little. Or whatever the term is in English. It's also a little late in the evening, so I don't know if this is even relevant to the discussion.

Anyway, it should be said then that GameFreak DO care for balance. Not necessarily competitive balance on the "1337 OU" scale, but the balance that makes the game fun to play.
The way I see it, entry hazards, or Stealth Rock to be exact, skewed this balance somewhat. Yes, entry hazards are a most welcome "spice" of the game, but with the addition of the Rocks it burned the candle from both ends. Its effect on some Pokémon is too devastating to ignore. Even if the opponent does not attack, a Charizard will flat out faint if brought to the field with Rocks in play twice. Meanwhile, Pokémon like Torterra or Swampert (hugely popular due to their starter status) will pass the rocks almost unscathed. And there is only one move you can use to remove the rocks. It has 20BP and poor distribution. By all means, it has a fun impact on the metagame, but balance-wise, it was a mistake of GameFreak. I think they have realized this in Gen. V, seeing as it's no longer a TM and has rather small moveset distribution. Had the move been introduced the way it is in Gen. V, it would have been brilliant balance-wise. Great move, crappy distrubution. Like it or not, it what's makes the game balanced. In Gen. IV, it was handed out to every Pokémon and its mother. The damage was already done. Luckily, the Gen. V official tourneys weren't that badly affected by the monstrous move, seeing as only Gen. V Pokémon, who weren't around when Stealth Rock was a TM, were allowed to enter.

However, GameFreak doesn't always see the impact of the numbers they put in the code before the game is released, and they don't always care to fix it. See Regigigas, who was so chained down that it's totally useless by most standards (even in-game), and GameFreak simply left it like that. For a legendary, it's surprisingly lame.

Trying to get back to BW2, the point I want to make is that GameFreak doesn't always take the state of the metagame or the wants of competitive players into consideration when making new games. They check the fanbase to see the what's obviously skewed, poll the enthusiasm and tolerance for the "wild cards", and might take it into consideration when altering stuff between versions. I have no doubt that some people at GameFreak read The Smog, if not necessarily regularly.
For instance, we shouldn't expect something being completely redesigned to fight Ferrothorn or Dragonite because the metagame is stale, but we might find a couple of the new tools nifty for dealing with them anyway. Perhaps the fabled Ice Shard Move Tutor will appear this generation.
Umm... trying to make a conclusion here.... if we get a few new tools to deal with what is "obviously broken", it's not because GameFreak read our thoughts, it's most likely to be by chance. Perhaps there will be a total change to the Top 10 in usage, but don't expect it to happen for a reason we can name. We know that GameFreak is watching, thinking and coding, but we don't know what or how. Changes in the metagame will be due to changes in the code, not vice versa.

Did any of this make any sense at all?
 

Firestorm

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Game Freak builds their games with Doubles and Singles in mind. Doubles is the "official" way to play soley because of the VGCs. (Although MLG had a Pro Curcuit for Singles for DPP iirc and has an on-going 6v6 Singles Ladder for B/W.)

Saying that Game Freak only "balances" the game for Doubles is calling them blind. Game Freak knows EXACTLY why Diamond & Pearl revitalized the series. Wifi. They know it definitely wasn't Double Battles. And, as a budding game designer myself that knows the industry, I can tell you that, just like how we do with PO, they can extract data from their servers and look at it to go "Okay, what are the most popular things we're seeing here?" When they look at the unrated friend battles being 90% 6v6 Singles, then they know what to focus on.

The VGCs are not run by Game Freak. The VGCs are vastly just a PR stunt held by the marketing division that advertises Pokemon Merchandise and is also responsible for the Pokemon TCG tourneys to....advertise Pokemon more! What a shock!

If I have one gripe with gamers, it's that you don't give game developers enough credit. Smogon is small. PO is small. BUT Game Freak knows we exist all because of one thing, there is no big, competitive Pokemon site of Japan. If you search competitive Pokemon in Japanese, the first 2 results are Smogon with the 3rd being a question asking why competitive Pokemon is so popular in North America. Does Game Freak care about our rulesets or ban-lists? Hell no. Are they aware that there is a community 116,000 strong on a site vastly dedicated to 6v6 Single play? Absolutely. It's Game Freak's job to know the community. It's bad game design to not look for easily find-able sites like Smogon the specialize in YOUR game.

Game Freak knows their fan-base. They know how much we love 6v6 battles. But they also know that 6v6 ranked matches are a terrible idea. They know that not everyone has an hour to spare for stall, but they also know that players will try to stall the timer if they have the lead if they implemented a 30-minute timer into 6v6 battles. They chose 3v3 & 4v4 because they go fast. The term "snack gaming" gets thrown around a lot, but that's what it is; most people only play Pokemon for 10, 20, 30 minutes a day. 3v3 or 4v4 battle rarely last over 5 or 10 minutes. That why Game Freak chose them. No one wants to lose points on a ladder because they can't keep playing for another 40 minutes.

Game Freak balances the game for 6v6 singles and 4v4 doubles. The game was always about 6v6 singles since Red & Green. They started "balancing" the game with Gold & Silver because then knew that they have made a competitive game series now. The series was balanced for singles every game. Up until the VGCs started in 2009, there was no question about that. You don't take a game series with 5 generations of installments, all built for singles play and then turn it into a purely doubles-balanced game. It doesn't work that way. No matter how much VGC players wish otherwise, they will always be in the back seat in Game Freak's designing process.

tl;dr: Give Game Freak the credit they deserve.
Doubles Pokemon has been more balanced than Singles Pokemon since Generation IV. TPCi runs the VGC series in North America and Europe, but Nintendo of Japan does it in Japan. I forget who runs the tournaments in Korea. The rulesets are a collaborative effort between the Tournament Planner at TPCi and Nintendo from what I remember but I do believe Japan has more weight.

Japan has a sizeable competitive community and although Game Freak is obviously aware of us (as is TPCi), I would say they pay more attention to the Japanese than us. Japan has been doing doubles and 3v3 Singles as their primary formats for quite some time now. It's just the west that plays 6v6 Singles.

You can believe they look at Singles before Doubles when thinking of competitive balance, but all evidence suggests otherwise. Elements that are considered broken or centralizing in Singles like Moody, Stealth Rock, Speed Boost, Rain, etc. are either good, average, or terrible in Doubles.

MLG never had a pro circuit for Pokemon. They approached Smogon about collaborating on a DPP ladder then did it themselves using our ruleset when we didn't really show interest. The only tournament series anyone has cared about have all been from Nintendo. JAA in 2006, VGS in 2008, and the VGCs from 2009 - 2012 have all been doubles-based. The Emerald tournament in 2005 was Singles based and I believe the last one in North America to be so.

I agree that Game Freak makes the game with both Doubles and Singles in mind. But I think Singles is something they really just care about as far as completing the single player and maybe 3-on-3 multiplayer matches.

Cobraroll said:
Luckily, the Gen. V official tourneys weren't that badly affected by the monstrous move, seeing as only Gen. V Pokémon, who weren't around when Stealth Rock was a TM, were allowed to enter.
Stealth Rock isn't used because it blows. It wasn't used in the Gen IV tournaments and it's not used now either.
 
MLG never had a pro circuit for Pokemon. They approached Smogon about collaborating on a DPP ladder then did it themselves using our ruleset when we didn't really show interest. The only tournament series anyone has cared about have all been from Nintendo. JAA in 2006, VGS in 2008, and the VGCs from 2009 - 2012 have all been doubles-based. The Emerald tournament in 2005 was Singles based and I believe the last one in North America to be so.
That's another issue I've had is the extreme lack of live tournament organization on behalf of Smogon. If people want Smogon to be relevant, why don't people start having "local smogon leagues" or at least have Smogon sponsor tournaments? The Smash community has done a fantastic job in that regard, I just don't understand why we haven't taken any initiative to go into the live tourney field.
 

breh

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You can believe they look at Singles before Doubles when thinking of competitive balance, but all evidence suggests otherwise. Elements that are considered broken or centralizing in Singles like Moody, Stealth Rock, Speed Boost, Rain, etc. are either good, average, or terrible in Doubles.
This is a pretty true statement.

Garchomp and Excadrill both exist in VGC. The former is a mainstay on teams but far from broken (its STABs are watered down, 120 BP -> 80 BP and 100 BP -> 75 BP; it often runs Yache Berry too; granted, misshax is still evil when it happens) while the latter is... pretty underwhelming (its STAB is also dropped to a mere 75 BP unless it chooses to run Drill Run; essentially, if the target resists Ground-type moves, Excadrill's not going to be hitting for much).

In general, doubles makes things less likely to set up, which makes it harder for anything to become outright broken.
 

lmitchell0012

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I doubt there will be any new pokemon in this game, but it would be really nice if sableye or spiritomb got an evolution. In terms of walling potential, they would make FANTASTIC additions to the current OU metagame.
 
Game Freak balances the game for 6v6 singles and 4v4 doubles. The game was always about 6v6 singles since Red & Green. They started "balancing" the game with Gold & Silver because then knew that they have made a competitive game series now. The series was balanced for singles every game. Up until the VGCs started in 2009, there was no question about that. You don't take a game series with 5 generations of installments, all built for singles play and then turn it into a purely doubles-balanced game. It doesn't work that way. No matter how much VGC players wish otherwise, they will always be in the back seat in Game Freak's designing process.
No sane person would unleash such ability/move combos (like many we have banned today) while having 6x6 balance in mind.

The 6x6 we have today is more of a consequence to 3x3 than anything else. For example, Kingdra + Politoed are lame when you can fit only one more member on your team. But ridiculously strong if you can fit four others.

Even if they really thought about singles balance first, the metagame would still be stale and the community (all of them, not just Smogon) would still ban whatever is annoying, throwing all their efforts out the window.

You can't really compare GSC to BW. Back then, we didn't even had an ingame option to change the battle format, and the common agreement is that "you went all out without using the boxart Pokemon".
 
Does anyone else think the "red shoes" mentioned in meloetta's backstory will have an item that affectsvmeloetta in a similar fashion to the Gracidea did to Shaymin?
But seeing as she already has a way to change forme's, i can't think what they would do...
 
I just want the rest of the Dream World abilities to be released.

And for Weavile to learn a switch move á la Volt-Turn.

Edit: Actually I want a lot more, but I doubt I'd get it, so I'd be happy with the above.
 
Random unimportant thought:
There will probably be a legit non-event way to get Zorua this time :D
It felt so wrong in BW.. theres wifi trading and all but still.
 
Does anyone else think the "red shoes" mentioned in meloetta's backstory will have an item that affectsvmeloetta in a similar fashion to the Gracidea did to Shaymin?
But seeing as she already has a way to change forme's, i can't think what they would do...
Clearly it's Meloetta's third form: DIVA MODE
Fighting/Psychic
128/128 offenses 128 speed
Defenses lowered to like 50/50 or something
 

Bologo

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A move tutor that gives Quiver Dance and Dragon Dance to Nidoking and I'm satisfied.
I doubt that Nidoking can do Quiver Dance considering its original name was Butterfly Dance. The only non-Grass/non-Bug type that might get Quiver Dance is Hitmonchan because he can float like a butterfly, sting like a bee.
 
I doubt that Nidoking can do Quiver Dance considering its original name was Butterfly Dance. The only non-Grass/non-Bug type that might get Quiver Dance is Hitmonchan because he can float like a butterfly, sting like a bee.
Meloetta could also get Quiver Dance, I suppose. She is a dancer in one form, and the other floats all over
 
The only Pokémon I see that should get Quiver Dance are Lumineon and Bellossom. I mean, if Lilligant gets it, so should Bellossom.
Oh yeah Lumineon would probably like that. Give it absolutely anything to set it apart from any other water type.
 
So I missed like 300 posts, did anything get revealed/confirmed? I know coro coro started to get leaked, what came out if any?
 

Firestorm

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Just the cover so far.



The two characters on the top right look like they could be new trainers. I'll keep this thread updated as more comes out.
 

atsync

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Just the cover so far.

[image removed]

The two characters on the top right look like they could be new trainers. I'll keep this thread updated as more comes out.
Maybe, though the cover of corocoro is often fairly scattered in its layout so those characters may have nothing to do with it (though the art style appears to be somewhat in line with pokemon games).

Also note the presence of Meloetta at the upper right (yeah its probably just saying stuff we already know though).
 
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