Pokemon Legends - Arceus - 28th Jan 2022 *Official Content Only*

Sad the DLC wasn't more substantial but with Gen 9 this year I guess it just wasn't meant to be. Bummer.
Poor Kalos starters, LA DLC was the last bit of hope I had for seeing them in gen 8 in any form.

Doing the new quests now. The "secret weapon" one is cute.

e: Haha, cute, a BDSP reference with the oreburrow quest
 
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Finished the new stuff now... can't say I like it unfortunately. Massive mass outbreaks are ultimately just a way more stressful and messy version of mass outbreaks and I absolutely can't get into battle stuff in a game with this battle system (it bemuses me that people were asking for more battles in this game when it absolutely wasn't made for it). I think it actually made the game a little worse for me by this almost being framed as the 'actual' postgame and massive outbreaks being all over the place getting in the way? At least Ginter gives you more stuff, that's cool
 
Copying and pasting my comment from the BDSP thread...

Happening soon (English page here)




Bank, LGPE, and Go are one-way to Home, and two-way to/from Home and SS, BDSP, and Arceus.



Pokemon from SS and BDSP to Arceus will be in this new "Strange Ball".

Hidden Ability Turtwig, Chimcar, and Piplup will be available as gifts in the smartphone version of Home when you first deposit a Pokemon from BDSP to Home. Unclear if the natures are locked at the moment, but the website shows Turtwig as adamant, Chimchar as hasty, and Piplup as modest.

Similarly, max effort level Rowlet, Cyndaquil, and Oshawott will be available as gifts in the smartphone version of Home when you first deposit a Pokemon from Arceus to Home. The website shows Rowlet as jolly, Cyndaquil as modest, and Oshawott as rash.
 
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Bank, LGPE, and Go are one-way to Home, and two-way to/from Home and SS, BDSP, and Arceus.
Now, i'm honestly surprised by this.

I know that in Arceus the Ability, IV and EV data actually exists even though it's "turned off". But here's the thing... how does this interact with the new moves and the new pokemon as well as the ones not present in SS, and obviously, how do attacks that do not exist in Arceus behave if you move a pokemon TO Arceus?
(To some degree, this applies to BDSP as well, regarding the moves discrepancy between it and SS)
 
Now, i'm honestly surprised by this.

I know that in Arceus the Ability, IV and EV data actually exists even though it's "turned off". But here's the thing... how does this interact with the new moves and the new pokemon as well as the ones not present in SS, and obviously, how do attacks that do not exist in Arceus behave if you move a pokemon TO Arceus?
(To some degree, this applies to BDSP as well, regarding the moves discrepancy between it and SS)
The English press release notes that Pokemon from Legends Arceus just display as a Pokeball rather than Strange Ball, so there's no update coming for that, so the easy answer is probably "You cannot transfer to SWSH or BDSP if they have that move" and "The new pokemon can only go to Legends Arceus"

More meanwhile, Legends Arceus still has a list of all the moves in the series, they're just doing the "Please delete this" thing.
 

Jibaku

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The Pokemon's movesets reset to their Level when transferred between the Gen 8 games depending on the target game. Their moves will be restored when they return to their original game.

It also appears that past gen mons will have their moves replaced when transferring to BDSP/Legends.
 

KaenSoul

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Now, i'm honestly surprised by this.

I know that in Arceus the Ability, IV and EV data actually exists even though it's "turned off". But here's the thing... how does this interact with the new moves and the new pokemon as well as the ones not present in SS, and obviously, how do attacks that do not exist in Arceus behave if you move a pokemon TO Arceus?
(To some degree, this applies to BDSP as well, regarding the moves discrepancy between it and SS)
According to Serebii
Serebii said:
Pokémon's moves will be reset when moved from say Pokémon Sword & Shield to Pokémon Brilliant Diamond & Shining Pearl equivalent to the level they're at from the game but when you return it to the original software, it will relearn the moves it had originally
I guess the same will be true for Arceus, so unless we get a pokemon direct announcement soon i doubt SWSH, BDSP or LA would get a massive update to make them fully compatible with the other two.
 
The Pokemon's movesets reset to their Level when transferred between the Gen 8 games depending on the target game. Their moves will be restored when they return to their original game.
According to Serebii

I guess the same will be true for Arceus, so unless we get a pokemon direct announcement soon i doubt SWSH, BDSP or LA would get a massive update to make them fully compatible with the other two.
Bit of a shame, there goes my last bit of HOPIUM that we would actually get to see the Hisuian forms, new mons and Enamorous in VGC.

Welp, to gen 9 we go I guess :\

I feel sorry for BDSP OU who were probably also on heavy copium waiting to get full movesets as well.
 
Honestly I had already accepted that they wouldn't update the Hisuian Forms and new Pokemon but I figured there'd at least be a tiny update just to add the Strange Ball to SWSH and may as well add the move data to the "please delete this" list.


I guess the differing level up moves is probably more elegant & doesn't risk losing moves since it now carries around 3 memories, though.


Also incidentally they (re?)confirmed SV will get Home too. I mean....obviously, but they had a little note about it regardless https://www.pokemon.co.jp/info/2022/05/220512_gm02.html

Also I suppose recontextualizes the hisui zoroark vs lucario image that's been shown since the game's unveil as "this is a zoroark from home"
 
I guess the differing level up moves is probably more elegant & doesn't risk losing moves since it now carries around 3 memories, though.
Remember when I was praising Dexit and Movexit for "removing bloated data that's not worth carrying over in next games" and then they go and add more bloat to it.

GameFreaks I really try to defend you but sometimes.... :trode:
 
Remember when I was praising Dexit and Movexit for "removing bloated data that's not worth carrying over in next games" and then they go and add more bloat to it.

GameFreaks I really try to defend you but sometimes.... :trode:
You should be happy about this? The "Bloated data" is negligible. It's either attached to the Pokemon itself (its just a list of things to know) or its handled by Home itself.

Meanwhile games are hypothetically free to just completely cast off various moves if they arent in that game. I mean they probably wont because again its negligible when its equivalent to a text file. But they could.
 
You should be happy about this? The "Bloated data" is negligible. It's either attached to the Pokemon itself (its just a list of things to know) or its handled by Home itself.
It is "for now". Which is the problem with all these things.
If it stays as a "one of"... ok, fine I guess.
If they start doing it for every released game, well, enjoy pokemon data now starting to contain more and more moveset data for games you may not even own.
 
Like look, here, I will answer this as earnestly as possible

First off, it's very possible this is on the Home end. While it seems like partial learn data is still attached to the LA pokemon data (we were able to look at that stuff and see how enamorus copy pasted some landorus learnset lol) this by definition doesnt apply to the actual Pokemon data. It's now on Home's responsibly to track this, and as a separate piece of software whose job is to ferry Pokemon between games this is literally its entire job and its okay for it do this. It doesnt have to worry about "bloat" because the things that actually "bloat" it are, like, image files and brand new pokemon and storing like what 3000 pokemon how many does this thing even have. The bloat is negligible for a product designed to bloat anyway. It would take many many generations for this to matter in any way that might possibly impact anything. When you're working on scale like this even .5kb of extra data per Pokemon, which yes would eventually add up, is a drop in the bucket compared to all the other 100s of TBs of data you're already handling on the cloud server or the significantly less amont of data you're handling at a local switch level.

Next, in the scenario where its by Pokemon instead of by Home, it's...still fairly negligible. The bag image files they drag game to game probably take up more room. It won't affect performance, and its probably trivial to maintain and relative to all the other stuff that goes into a modern game, is a negligible amount of extra data.

More meanwhile, the transition to SV will likely be as one way as that's just how these cookies tend to crumble. If that's the case then either the data structure itself or Home (depending on how its handled) can just shuck off the Gen 8 learnset data and move on with their lives. A given Pokemon will probably only have about 3 games worth of data to track during a generation in this scenario.

Also I think there might be a possibility where it only tracks the origin game? I might have misread the examples but it seems like if you went SWSH to BDSP (reset, learn some new stuff) to SWSH (reverts to the SWSH moveset it had prior) and back to BDSP it just resets again to whatever the level is. Which again reads a lot like it's Home, specifically, that is doing this.

It is just impossible for me to care about the data bloat even in the """"worst""" scenario (it's by Pokemon and it tracks ALL games forever). It really is negligible and invisible.
 
Ok i will because it wont matter in any way??
I can allow it because you arent a programmer and don't undestand the implications of the issue.
First off, it's very possible this is on the Home end.
It can't be. The pokemon disappears from Home once it reaches the target game. Data has to be kept.

It's literally same problem for which Dexit happened.
GF started to run out of time due to having to re-implement and carry over more and more data for every given pokemon, and decided that the best course of action was, well, to not port all the pokemon + rid of the less important attacks in order to reduce the amount of animations and coding to be re-done every time the engine changes.

They would, with this, once more add bloated data that has to be carried over between generations. At very least, for the current generation, assuming that when ""Switch 2"" happens, they wouldn't need to keep compatibility with older games as the transfers become one way only.

As of now, it means that every pokemon data structure has to carry over:
- Its SwSh learnset, with all the TR learned as these become relearnable toghether with Egg moves.
- Its BDSP current learned moves and egg moves (which won't be the same as SwSh, and remember in SwSh you can now actually add egg moves)
- Its Arceus current moves, tutored moves, and degree of mastery for each attack.

Bunch of data that will have to be kept for all of gen 9 games too because as they are implying, Arceus pokemon will be able to move to SV, and back.

I also have pretty high confidence this will be a thing for SV as well (the separate learnset) as it completely solves the necessity to have a "battle ready NPC that wipes your moveset", since well your moveset is now clean anyway when you transfer to that game.

It's practical? Yes.
It's probably not a high amount of data? Also yes.
The problem is that it's useless data that should not be there. Them present in Home means that every single gen 8 and 9 game needs to be able to store that data for themselves because otherwise it'd get lost when you trade them away, and you can't just "keep it in Home", because then if you trade the pokemon via in-game means, the data is lost.
If they really are bothered by move compatibility, the original SwSh approach was the best and less intrusive.

And this is coming off a controversial manevuer that was executed *specifically* due to excess of data that has to be reimplemented every generation.
My only hope is that transfers to gen 9 will be one way only and this data will just get wiped out when moving to them, kinda like gen 1 DV values get nuked when you move the pokemon to Bank, or GO data gets wiped when you move to Home.
Cause otherwise they are once more showing their incompetence and lack of seeing further than a year when coding, which is what caused Dexit in first place.


Edit: Funnily, rereading my and R_N 's post made me realize there's also one other possibility, which would be very dumb but also a bit less tragic: that he's right and the data is indeed Home side only.
That would indeed mean that Home stores it and bothers to send the correct moveset to each game, and that if I were to move a pokemon say from BDSP to Home, then to SwSh, then trade it via SwSh, and then the person who received it moves it to their Home, they wouldn't have the BDSP moveset thus when moved to their own BDSP the pokemon would have a freshly generated moveset for its level.
It'd be dumb, but hey, at least this one would actually be nowhere as troublesome to keep functional since there's no pointless data in the games.
 
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I am a programmer. I work in QA, and frequently have to deal with various DB issues and loads in addition to my moment to moment UI testing.

If I have to deal with a page that loads forever or has to deal with retesting the DB because it's going through an overhaul or transfer, the difference an extra column makes is negligible. Present, potentially (Though not always!) gets worse with higher loads, but negligible. THe actual issue is the amount of entries, typically. Or the developers messed up a connection. 4000 entries in a DB table is going to be significantly more important than if those 4000 entries went from 20 columns to idk 25.

Dexit's issue was likely not because of the Pokemon data structure, it was everything else dealing with the Pokemon. The models in particular were probably the biggest issue, and that's not a data bloat issue its a tools issue and the time needed fixing any broken animations or redo textures or testing to make sure they function properly in the environs or whatever. The problem with moves (on a Pokemon, ignoring balance of the moves and animations) is the time needed to edit & possibly rebalance the movelists. The actual data itself? Fine. You can still dig through and find various data as it was in gen 7. Transferred over no problem.

To vastly oversimplify things it's a file with a chunk of data not getting read. Should it be cleaned up? Yeah sure, best practices and all. I'm still annoyed how Smash Bros handles its victory themes because of it*. & I'm my job we've definitely found columns not in use that we got rid of just because we should (it didn't effect anything, you see). But this? It's just eh...it's not a problem really. If it causes a problem it just, like....would have to be decades down the line as far as Im concerned and is probably a relatively (relatively!) easy thing to fix.


You are right its probably not all stored in Home, though, I did overlook the whole trading thing. But I still feel like Home's doing something because like...eugh...how do I explain this.
The data strcutrue isnt...I think...prepared to keep it as it is? Like it was never made with doing this in mind. And we know SWSH & BDSP aren't getting updates. And I don't think tweaking the structure and also allowing it to go back to those games would work, since those games would just overwrite the structure (ie: i am pretty sure this is the real reason why gen 6 to 7 was a one way street?). So if the pokemon is now able to handle 3 separate game Move Memories its like.......something's missing there, surely?


Alternatively it points to this:
Also I think there might be a possibility where it only tracks the origin game? I might have misread the examples but it seems like if you went SWSH to BDSP (reset, learn some new stuff) to SWSH (reverts to the SWSH moveset it had prior) and back to BDSP it just resets again to whatever the level is.
Which still feels like the data structure itself isn't doing all the heavy lifting either (it was only ever set to learn one game and SWSH in particular wouldn't track that right?, but...without an update the game couldn't either, right? Like it wouldn't be able to see ORIGIN: Not BDSP, so dont save anything to it. Because it'd need to save to the memory in order for the it to fuction operly in that game. But then even if Home just went "okay origin mismatch, erase this" it wouldn't be able to set it back unless the original moveset was stored somewhere but it couldn't--look im going in circles now.
I imagine some dataminer folks will detail how this all works once the update hits, I'm pretty curious myself.


*
Internally almost every character's victory theme is a separate music file, even if the file in question is a 1:1 copy of another. IE Mario, Luigi & Peach all share the exact same theme but they each have their own copy of that file. The files themselves are not very large (some kb each, since they're short themes on the whole; exception to the Joker themes since those are just full ass songs lol)
but the game doesn't need to point to that character's file. The new echo fighters (& Wolf, who fun fact has never had his own file entry even in Brawl) dont have their own entries. So even though Mario, Luigi & Peach all have separate entries, Daisy doesn't. Presumably when she wins, the game just points it at Peach. And richter at simon and dark samus at ridley and so on.

As someone who just spent...entirely too long...analyzing songs in Smash it's one of those things where i just go "okay but please jsut delete the spares tho". Though, again, it doesnt actually matter
 
Forgive me, but I realize I think we've both been conflating two aspects of Pokemon data

The one most relevant for "dexit" would be a Pokemon's uhhhh let's just say species. That's like hey here's the pokemon's base stats, here's its learn set, etc etc. I still don't think this is really all that relevant compared to the much bigger issues with having a Pokemon in (the model, the animations, the balancing, the location, writing dex entries, blah blah blah). As far as that's concerned you just have to worry about Charmander and that's stored in the specific game; so SWSH's Charmander learnset is different from BDSP's Charmander learnset, but these are exclusively programmed in.
The one most relevant for "bloat" is an individual Pokemon's data. THis would be where its current learned moves and its Memory are stored. If the update is to (just simplifying language here im probably off base) have it so it's tracking 3 or whatever games of memories, that would be to this aspect.

Dexit doesnt have to care about the latter at all. If you bring Charry the Charmander from SWSH to BDSP to SV, then even if it now tracks 3 games of Memory, that wont really effect GameFreak adding Charmander to SV for dexit concerns. The rest of adding Charmander is what matters, because once Charry is in SV it only has to worry about the programmed moves (and other junk) in SV. The SWSH & BDSP memories wouldn't matter, it just wouldn't be read. Excessive, but meaningless to the more potential issue of "do we want to add Charmander to the game". What the "bloat" would hypothetically matter towards would probably be "how many individual Pokemon can we maintain in a given save file's boxes at a given time"
 
I am glad that I actually now know that you're a colleague and hopefully another javascript hater ( :psysly: ) and I see we do have a bit of shared idea.

Admittedly I am mainly pissed that they're "doing it again" and not really of the size of the thing. I aknowledge that even in worse case scenario it's few bits of data, I'm just very annoyed that after nuking stuff from the game due to too much data, they now add more pointless data.
It's unlikely that it'd cause any remote effort here and probably not even in 10 generations, but it's still annoying that they learned nothing.

And honestly...
look im going in circles now.
that's actually where I ended up too.

Cause if LA/SwSh/BDSP don't get any update, not even a small one, that means that the data *will* be Home only and Home will handle deciding which move data send to each game. Which means that the trade scenario I mentioned would happen.
Unless... they actually use the pokemon ID to track it internally on Home's server, so when the person I traded my Charizard to moves it to Home, then it will "recover" the move data from their servers.

Which is possible but... I am now thinking of the fancy shenenigans you can do with cloned pokemon :psysly:
 
I am glad that I actually now know that you're a colleague and hopefully another javascript hater ( :psysly: ) and I see we do have a bit of shared idea.
I've avoided getting really heavy with javascript but I dabbled into reading for learning automation purposes and man...can't........can't wait for my company to finally get on board with full on automation writing.............
Admittedly I am mainly pissed that they're "doing it again" and not really of the size of the thing. I aknowledge that even in worse case scenario it's few bits of data, I'm just very annoyed that after nuking stuff from the game due to too much data, they now add more pointless data.
It's unlikely that it'd cause any remote effort here and probably not even in 10 generations, but it's still annoying that they learned nothing.

And honestly...

that's actually where I ended up too.

Cause if LA/SwSh/BDSP don't get any update, not even a small one, that means that the data *will* be Home only and Home will handle deciding which move data send to each game. Which means that the trade scenario I mentioned would happen.
Unless... they actually use the pokemon ID to track it internally on Home's server, so when the person I traded my Charizard to moves it to Home, then it will "recover" the move data from their servers.

Which is possible but... I am now thinking of the fancy shenenigans you can do with cloned pokemon :psysly:
Like I said I'm very curious what the end result of all this is, data-wise. I'm sure sciresm will probably be beelining for dismantling it just because I know he was one of the people thinking it wouldn't happen at all because of the seemingly weird way BDSP internally was put together relative to the rest of the series.

i hope its actually the world's weirdest hack job *hands under chin, lackadasily kicking my legs back and forth*
 
Something that was mentioned on the Smogon subreddit is whether Gen 9 will do the same thing and just reset every move set, cutting off every past-gen exclusive move. If so, it would make everyone fight on equal ground in every battle mode at the cost of removing vital moves from certain Pokemon.
 
at the cost of removing vital moves from certain Pokemon.
Well, in these cases you always have to remember that Smogon doesn't exist as far as balance goes.
When they work on balancing the game, GF doesn't balance for 6v6, doesn't balance for "national dex", and even if they look at singles, they are looking at 3v3 BSS format.

What's "vital" for your average smogon player is something they have never cared for, and other way around. You don't hear smogon players asking to nerf Intimidate do you, and yet it was (indirectly) nuked this gen, and good chance it will again next one since lord and savior incineroar is still sitting at over 70% usage.
 

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Something that was mentioned on the Smogon subreddit is whether Gen 9 will do the same thing and just reset every move set, cutting off every past-gen exclusive move. If so, it would make everyone fight on equal ground in every battle mode at the cost of removing vital moves from certain Pokemon.
In the make more sense than what they did with the galar marks, they want mons to forget moves from previous games to have an easier time balancing VGC and BSS, this way they can also nerf stuff by removing moves that put them over the edge, and doing it from HOME is much easier than making a new "move reset" NPC in every game they release.
Kind of sucks, as it now will also affect smogon tiers, not that i have a problem with less stuff spaming knock off.
 

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