Other Pre-DLC SV Monotype Metagame Discussion

[Pengairxan]

With the vote choosing not to ban even acknowledging two of the most painful pre-home mons (Chien-pao and Flutter Mane) was due to it just being about Home mons and the already banned threats, at least that is how I understand it.

That being said both of them Pre-home where absolute menaces on all types there where on and been constantly complained about. Posthome I feel like Flutter Mane has become a bit more manageable with even bulkier threats capable of causing it hell on types, or this could just me being so used to it it doesn't feel that bad anymore. But it still a huge threat on Ghost and Fairy with that huge Special attack and Speed so seeing a second suspect test on it wouldn't feel out of place to me.
Screw Pao though, it has been a constant problem throughout the Prehome meta and continues to be in the Posthome meta. Removing it would hurt Ice a lot but Ice is already a type that hurts a lot due to having 500 other issues.

I also wouldn't mind seeing Lando-I be given the look at but I'm also a very biased Poison player whos only real answer into it is sacking AMuk for Ice punch damage with a fast mon to revenge kill it afterwards or AV Glowking's Ice beam so I might have an agenda to gain here by having it banned.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

With the vote choosing not to ban even acknowledging two of the most painful pre-home mons (Chien-pao and Flutter Mane) was due to it just being about Home mons and the already banned threats, at least that is how I understand it.

That being said both of them Pre-home where absolute menaces on all types there where on and been constantly complained about. Posthome I feel like Flutter Mane has become a bit more manageable with even bulkier threats capable of causing it hell on types, or this could just me being so used to it it doesn't feel that bad anymore. But it still a huge threat on Ghost and Fairy with that huge Special attack and Speed so seeing a second suspect test on it wouldn't feel out of place to me.
Screw Pao though, it has been a constant problem throughout the Prehome meta and continues to be in the Posthome meta. Removing it would hurt Ice a lot but Ice is already a type that hurts a lot due to having 500 other issues.

I also wouldn't mind seeing Lando-I be given the look at but I'm also a very biased Poison player whos only real answer into it is sacking AMuk for Ice punch damage with a fast mon to revenge kill it afterwards or AV Glowking's Ice beam so I might have an agenda to gain here by having it banned.

Flutter 100% doesn't even need to be thought about imo. It was voted 90% no ban in the pre home suspect, and since home many types that it used to give trouble have newfound answers, namely Fire with Heatran, Fighting with Sneasler+Zamazenta, and Dragon with Goodra Hisui.

Lando-I I've found underwhelming which seems to be the general consensus. I'd imagine it gives Poison alot of trouble with Earth Power + Psychic, but I'd found Lando T more useful on both Flying and Ground. Outside of the Poison Matchup I hadn't really seen Lando I stand out in any way either.

Chien Pao I do still see as problematic, I think I still believe Spectrier and Zamazenta may need to be prioritized first but Pao should still be added to the potential suspects.

 

[Pengairxan]

Flutter 100% doesn't even need to be thought about imo. It was voted 90% no ban in the pre home suspect, and since home many types that it used to give trouble have newfound answers, namely Fire with Heatran, Fighting with Sneasler+Zamazenta, and Dragon with Goodra Hisui.

Ah, so it isn't just me. Once again, I've felt like Flutter has been much easier to deal with Posthome but wasn't sure. Even on Poison, AMuk is takes less than 50 from a Specs Moonblast and then just does 70% and removes specs making it much simpler to deal with for the entire team.

I haven't seen enough of Spectrier or non sub Zamazentas to really comment on them. With Spec I can easily see the issues it can cause but with my sample size of about 3 scarfers which all died to a singular Knock off, I need more information. Sub Zama hasn't been that rough from my personal experience but the one Choiced one was an huge issue for me so I wouldn't mind seeing it looked at.

 

[Gorechomp]

Hate to go with the crowd, but yeah, Chien Pao can eat crap and die. It is easily one of the most unhealthy Pokémon in the meta, before and after home. Trying to check and Pokémon with pretty much 177 attack and 135 speed is quite ridiculous, epecially if you’re rocking with a type that’s weak to it(my dragon boys weep ). On top of that, it has ice Shard and Sucker Punch, making revenge killing even more difficult. The fact that it wasn’t on the suspect list blows my mind. Please suspect.

Spectrier is also pretty busted. It was fine before because it was walled by dark types, but now it gets draining kiss, eradicating that problem. Having 130 speed and 145 special attack, makes it strong enough to sweep, but Grimm Neigh, nasty plot, plus will-o-wisp to cripple its counters just pushes it over the edge to broken territory.

Dire Claw is also pretty nutty and I’ve even lost games, simply because I had a bad roll. Unburden sets can also be pretty tough to stop once they get going. I definitely agree Sneasler needs a look at, but not before dealing with Pao and Spec, who are WAY harder to deal with imo.

 

[Joethezombie]

Here are my current viability rankings, some of them I am more confident on their placements than others. Hoping to get you guy's feedback along with maybe some teams for me to use to better understand some mons that I couldn't make work like volanion and heatran. I will be finalizing these probably this within a week and making a video with the rankings and my reasoning for all of them, which I will post here when I make it. Also, since shorter responses seem to be unwelcome here, if someone wants to have a discussion about this I'm in the monotype discord.

 

[wkxkevin]

Here are my current viability rankings, some of them I am more confident on their placements than others. Hoping to get you guy's feedback along with maybe some teams for me to use to better understand some mons that I couldn't make work like volanion and heatran. I will be finalizing these probably this within a week and making a video with the rankings and my reasoning for all of them, which I will post here when I make it. Also, since shorter responses seem to be unwelcome here, if someone wants to have a discussion about this I'm in the monotype discord.
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I like your tier list but I have a one simple question. I have never been able to make Harcanine work. The main reason is that the bad MU's remain the exact same with or without harcanine. The question I have is: how did you make it work?

 

[Gorechomp]

Here are my current viability rankings, some of them I am more confident on their placements than others. Hoping to get you guy's feedback along with maybe some teams for me to use to better understand some mons that I couldn't make work like volanion and heatran. I will be finalizing these probably this within a week and making a video with the rankings and my reasoning for all of them, which I will post here when I make it. Also, since shorter responses seem to be unwelcome here, if someone wants to have a discussion about this I'm in the monotype discord.
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I like the tier list, but I just want to know the reasoning behind some of them. Like why is H-Arcanine S tier and why is regular Typhlosion A tier?

 

[showdownperson]

I like your tier list but I have a one simple question. I have never been able to make Harcanine work. The main reason is that the bad MU's remain the exact same with or without harcanine. The question I have is: how did you make it work?

While I don't know for certain what H-Arcanine set he runs, here's the link to the set I generally run: https://pokepast.es/abe6998639ef1d01

 

[Joethezombie]

I like your tier list but I have a one simple question. I have never been able to make Harcanine work. The main reason is that the bad MU's remain the exact same with or without harcanine. The question I have is: how did you make it work?

And Gorechomp
My harcanine set is
Scarf, +speed, -spa, attack
Head smash
Wild charge
Flare blitz
Extreme speed
And rock head ability ofc

The reason why moth, harcanine, and typhlosion are so high is because I consider a good scarfer or even 2 an absolute necessity on fire in this gen, more than anything else, and these three mons are the best scarfers for the type, with the biggest nuke being harcanine all the time, and eruption typhlosion under sun
P.S. e speed over CC because of other faster scarfers to chip down for other priority

 

[Scarfire]

Nobody asked but I wanted to do a type VR. Important notes on what decides my criteria: obvious stuff is metagame relevance, number of covered matchups at once, number of losing matchups, and the importance of the matchups. Beyond that though, I have a personal criteria where I tend to dislike types that have to rely on shitmons to cover their weaknesses. I will elaborate on this in specific lower.

S:

The last bit of criteria I mentioned ties into why I think flying eclipses water and dark as the best type. Every pokemon and every tool flying has is just generally good, from Lando to Corv to Enamorus to Dragonite its just a type of pure strong mons. No mess. Flying can prep well for all 3 of the A+ types (dark isnt the easiest because of the funny weasel but still), and pretty much every type in A and in B and it can beat majority of them in a handful of combinations of 6 pokemon. Only things that feel unfavourable is lack of spikes, the ability to get cheesed by Enamorus-T if u dont prep for it, and how you're often one flinch away from losing to Pao.

A+

Water is very customizable, rain, balance, fat, can be built in many ways and all can take on majority of the best types. Only reasons its below Flying for me is because of its removal slot always feeling like a pain in the ass. Tatsu just isn't a good mon (nice in mirror though) and Quaquaval being reduced to a weird bulky spinner set that doesn't do anything but spinbot in most matchups makes it feel like a 5v6 more often than not. Beyond that water is hard to prep against as one core or another will wall something you might use to break it, while it also has many offensive threats to choose from.

Dark and Fairy are both pretty similar, hazard spam types with just immense pressure and random cheese mons and broken fast ones. Chien to Flutter and Kingambit to Enamous, its just hard to defensively answer these types. That being said they are very flimsy, dark has an immense weakness to hazards itself, and Fairy, even with Hatterene, doesn't like getting tspiked on by Water/Dark/Ground/Poison. Still very high impact and reliable types if ur good at piloting offence.

A

All five of these types are pretty fine, can be made to beat any of the better types but definitely have glaring weaknesses. Fighting into dark isn't as free of a win as you'd like, Sableye + Fangs Chien / Extrasense Gren / Any Goltres teams can just win so its meh. Water matchup can be pretty good depending on how you build. Fairy is miserable to fight and Fighting vs Flying is honestly not the worst.

Steel has been underwhelming vs the top types but regardless has a strong structure of 6[, and can be flexible with stuff like klefki screens + ptrip corv, orthworm to spikes stack and shed tail to annoying setup pokemon like gambit, and so on. It can beat alot, but not all at once and definitely has to pick and choose its wins more carefully.

Ghost is threatening but is kind of having a hard time vs top 4 imo. Goltres flying can kind of just instantly win and even without it flying has lots of strong pivot mons that can just pressure ghost down. Dark is just a rough uphill battle, and water is iffy because brambleghast is the most fake water resist ever. I think ghost is also suffering from picking an ideal 6. You want Zoroark so u have ghost immunity, you need bramble, you want to keep Flutter and Spectrier because they are broken and why else would you use ghost, Mimikyu patches up auto-losing to hard threats, gholdengo is good for status absorption and fairy resist, skeledirge is good for real fire resist and can wisp stuff like gambit, and Dragapult is just amazing speed control with good type diversity. Tough to build and all outcomes miss out on important shit.

Dragon has so many tools to sweep any random few types it decides to, but some of the matchups defensively are very painful. Having to deal with darks scarf meow pr, greninja specs ice beam, and everything gambit and chien can do is tough. Fairy is also difficult but if u stack neutrals Hoodra + Dragalge its pretty favourable. All other types you can beat. Dragon def feels at its best when you build in a way to just accept the L to dark and strengthen your matchup into everything else.

Ground sucks vs like everything, even steel isn't a super safe matchup if its setup corviknight builds. Flyng, Water, Dark, all of these just run it over. Fairy is the only worthwhile matchup to mention. Only reason its still high is because it has the tools to still pull back some of these matchups if y9u get creative. Stuff like specs chomp/gravity shocks teams can beat up flying, water has iffy ground resists on most of its builds so choice tusk can rly do a lot, and grounds defensive cores aren't terrible at hazard warring. Regardless, not a fan.

B

Poison is a piece of shit type I won't stand for the shilling otherwise. Bad into every single type listed above it. Oh? You think its good vs Fairy? Is it though? Between any amount of Flutter sets with psyshock, SD Zen or Psyshock Valiants, Tinkaton fairies, all the amount of sets Enam-I and T can do, all topped off with the fact that the right Azumarill set (spinner and bulldoze) can just win instantly. All this being said, yeah you get up tspikes and probably beat fairy but even that is still just ONE shakey good matchup. Ass type with good pokemon, though with some room to cheese away certain games. The right glowking set can probably beat Water and Steel, and thats all thats keeping it in B for me.

Psychic will either cheese you with espathra or its other miscellaneous bullshit, or it will lose. The definition of fishing. Mediocre type but worth considering I guess.

Bug can like, beat dark and fairy. Kleavor makes Flying not too much of a nightmare and you can beat non-dondozo waters with like SD trailblaze scizors. Not bad vs the top 4, pretty bad vs everything that follows.

C

These types all kind of suck I don't want to write up on them. You know why they are here. I would recommend exploring Normal further since I think it could have hidden potential, not much more.

Rock

Rock

Rock

Rock

Rock

 

[finncepti0n]

And Gorechomp
My harcanine set is
Scarf, +speed, -spa, attack
Head smash
Wild charge
Flare blitz
Extreme speed
And rock head ability ofc

The reason why moth, harcanine, and typhlosion are so high is because I consider a good scarfer or even 2 an absolute necessity on fire in this gen, more than anything else, and these three mons are the best scarfers for the type, with the biggest nuke being harcanine all the time, and eruption typhlosion under sun
P.S. e speed over CC because of other faster scarfers to chip down for other priority

what are you hitting with wild charge that stab head smash isnt hitting? when i made my h-arcanine team I realized this and dropped wild charge for e-speed. CC is good coverage to keep on h-arcanine.

As for the tiering of H-arcanine, I must say H-arcanine is a very powerful wallbreaker, however it needs certain criteria to be fulfilled before it is effective. H-arcanine is best under sun so that you can just turn brain off and click flare blitz in many matchups, therefore torkoal is needed to help set up for h-arcanine. I also believe that choice band is more suited on h-arcanine to supplement its relatively underwhelming stats and double down on wallbreaking since it has lackluster speed tier. As a result, I would probably put h-arcanine into B tier at best. S tier should be reserved for pokemon that the type can't function without. A tier should be for pokemon that are staples. B tier is where the pokemon with good niches lie.

 

[Dragapult]

Here are my current viability rankings, some of them I am more confident on their placements than others. Hoping to get you guy's feedback along with maybe some teams for me to use to better understand some mons that I couldn't make work like volanion and heatran. I will be finalizing these probably this within a week and making a video with the rankings and my reasoning for all of them, which I will post here when I make it. Also, since shorter responses seem to be unwelcome here, if someone wants to have a discussion about this I'm in the monotype discord.
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there are 6 mons listed above tran that arent better/more important/whatever the phrasing is

if torkoal is a must then volcanion is not an A tier mon - the two mons clash and if the argument is that sun is a must then volcanion is not great

iron moth got much worse as it cannot beat heatran

the typhlosions suck and neither is remotely as good as iron moth, both typhlosions cannot be the same tier esp when one is part ghost

S: Volcarona

A: Cinderace, Skeledirge, Heatran, Torkoal, Volcanion

B: Tauros-PF, Ceruledge, Iron Moth, Rotom-Heat, Talonflame, Scovillain

C: Typhlosion-H, Charizard, Arcanine, Armarouge

I don't think Arcanine-H is worth anything at all. 4x weak to Ground and Water speaks for itself and I struggle to see how it can be splashable on Fire given it has no identifiable niche actually relevant to the type. The only reason I even put the other Arcanine in C (none of which I would ever use anyway) is Extremespeed. Beyond that both are just straight up worse than Tauros. Delphox has a shitty typing and a stat spread that maybe would have been good in 2005.

 

[RoyalReloaded]

Hello, I just wanted to share my thoughts on the tiering survey:

I'm very glad we got one of these. I was wondering if we would get one and seeing one pop up made me very happy.

I voted 4 on Zamazenta and Kingambit, and 3 on Spectrier, Sneasler and Chien-Pao. I would have voted 3.5 on Chien-Pao, but that wasn't an option and it didn't feel right lowering Sneasler and Spectrier to a 2. I am largely in favor of a Kingambit suspect, and would not be opposed to Zamazenta and Chien-Pao suspects, in that order. I voted 8 on competitiveness of the tier and 7 for how much I'm enjoying it. More types feel viable now as opposed to pre-home which is always good, but I enjoyed pre-home more. Maybe I'll start enjoying it more once I learn how to play it more effectively.

i hope everyone has a nice day :3

 

[Gorechomp]

Delphox has a shitty typing and a stat spread that maybe would have been good in 2005.

Ouch, and I thought you couldn’t burn a Fire type…

Couldn’t Scarfphox help with the Fighting and Poison mu? Plus, Dazzling Gleam can help against Dragon (which is usually an auto loss for Fire) and Dark to some lesser degree. Not saying phox is good just not useless.

 

[TheRealBigC]

Ouch, and I thought you couldn’t burn a Fire type…

Couldn’t Scarfphox help with the Fighting and Poison mu? Plus, Dazzling Gleam can help against Dragon (which is usually an auto loss for Fire) and Dark to some lesser degree. Not saying phox is good just not useless.

Unboosted non STAB Dazzling Gleam coming off 114 Sp Atk is barely 2HKO'ing most Dragons, there's just no reason to use Delphox over the plethora of better Scarfers available on Fire like Iron Moth and Arcanine-H. It's a mediocre mon without a niche on Fire unfortunately.

there are 6 mons listed above tran that arent better/more important/whatever the phrasing is

if torkoal is a must then volcanion is not an A tier mon - the two mons clash and if the argument is that sun is a must then volcanion is not great

iron moth got much worse as it cannot beat heatran

the typhlosions suck and neither is remotely as good as iron moth, both typhlosions cannot be the same tier esp when one is part ghost

S: Volcarona

A: Cinderace, Skeledirge, Heatran, Torkoal, Volcanion

B: Tauros-PF, Ceruledge, Iron Moth, Rotom-Heat, Talonflame, Scovillain

C: Typhlosion-H, Charizard, Arcanine, Armarouge

I don't think Arcanine-H is worth anything at all. 4x weak to Ground and Water speaks for itself and I struggle to see how it can be splashable on Fire given it has no identifiable niche actually relevant to the type. The only reason I even put the other Arcanine in C (none of which I would ever use anyway) is Extremespeed. Beyond that both are just straight up worse than Tauros. Delphox has a shitty typing and a stat spread that maybe would have been good in 2005.

Arcanine-H definitely isn't a staple mon on Fire, but I have found it to be pretty good personally. Yes, it's not switching in to anything, but being able to spam Scarf Flare Blitz off a decent Attack stat under Sun with no fear of knocking yourself out with recoil is very strong, and Head Smash is obviously a fantastic secondary STAB to punch through Fire resists with. It also has coverage options like Close Combat for Heatran, Wild Charge to ease the Water MU without having to rely on Head Smash's 80 accuracy, and Extreme Speed if you want priority. In terms of MUs it's probably the best option Fire has for dealing with Flying, it's great for Fire dittos, and somewhat counterintuitively can be a useful late-game cleaner against Water. It's one of the better Scarfers for Fire right now in my opinion, I'd rank it as a high B tier mon.

Also, Volcanion is absolutely essential on Fire even with Sun; it can still make use of its boosted Fire STABs and you really have no shot at beating Water at all without it. It's incredibly valuable for dealing with random Water mons like Toxapex and Azumarill also; I would always bring it on Fire.

 

[wkxkevin]

Ouch, and I thought you couldn’t burn a Fire type…

Couldn’t Scarfphox help with the Fighting and Poison mu? Plus, Dazzling Gleam can help against Dragon (which is usually an auto loss for Fire) and Dark to some lesser degree. Not saying phox is good just not useless.

No need to over complicate this, here is a calc that is pretty much the death sentence of delphox:
252 SpA Delphox Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Assault Vest Goodra-Hisui: 34-41 (9.3 - 11.2%) -- possible 9HKO
252 SpA Delphox Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Assault Vest Goodra-Hisui: 70-84 (19.2 - 23.1%) -- possible 5HKO
252 SpA Delphox Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Assault Vest Goodra-Hisui: 102-122 (28 - 33.6%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO

0 Atk Goodra-Hisui Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Delphox: 84-100 (28.8 - 34.3%) -- 4.6% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Goodra-Hisui Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Delphox: 190-224 (65.2 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
32 SpA Goodra-Hisui Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Delphox: 146-172 (50.1 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

In fact, it's only focus miss + nasty plot that actually threatens hoodra
+2 252 SpA Delphox Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Assault Vest Goodra-Hisui: 204-242 (56.1 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Delphox Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Assault Vest Goodra-Hisui: 141-166 (38.8 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Delphox Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Assault Vest Goodra-Hisui: 68-81 (18.7 - 22.3%) -- possible 5HKO

This is just max hp, most hoodra run some spdef.

 

[Joethezombie]

there are 6 mons listed above tran that arent better/more important/whatever the phrasing is

if torkoal is a must then volcanion is not an A tier mon - the two mons clash and if the argument is that sun is a must then volcanion is not great

iron moth got much worse as it cannot beat heatran

the typhlosions suck and neither is remotely as good as iron moth, both typhlosions cannot be the same tier esp when one is part ghost

S: Volcarona

A: Cinderace, Skeledirge, Heatran, Torkoal, Volcanion

B: Tauros-PF, Ceruledge, Iron Moth, Rotom-Heat, Talonflame, Scovillain

C: Typhlosion-H, Charizard, Arcanine, Armarouge

I don't think Arcanine-H is worth anything at all. 4x weak to Ground and Water speaks for itself and I struggle to see how it can be splashable on Fire given it has no identifiable niche actually relevant to the type. The only reason I even put the other Arcanine in C (none of which I would ever use anyway) is Extremespeed. Beyond that both are just straight up worse than Tauros. Delphox has a shitty typing and a stat spread that maybe would have been good in 2005.

The way I did my tier list is that S tier isn't a must have on every team, otherwise the only S tier would maybe be Ace. S tier are mons that are splashable on nearly any team you could think of. Got a sunless team? Toss in ace and volcorona, maybe harcanine too. Got a sun team? Tork is needed, and maybe a bulky volcorona with morning sun or harcanine. They are splashable, if you have an open slot fill it with one of those 4 and they will give you value.

Heatran is only on two mu and not super common on fire, that doesn't really diminish moths viability
Typhlosion absolutely doesn't suck and I have easily 6-0 teams by leading tork, yawning, and swapping to typhlosion and just clicking eruption with a scarf. Hisui should probably be moved to b tier because sucker absolutely crushes it
Torkoal is not a must, just very good to have, so that doesn't clash with volcanion at
Harcanine doesn't care about its weaknesses, wild charge avoids accuracy problems, and is very good for pex or peli, and CC is just a worse HJK from ace, which is almost always paired with harcanine anyway. Harcanine is better than Tauros for offense, worse for utility, and yeah Delphox is pretty trash but it has some utility in its movepool that could be worth something to someone, and it's better than the 3 d tiers

 

[Dragapult]

Unboosted non STAB Dazzling Gleam coming off 114 Sp Atk is barely 2HKO'ing most Dragons, there's just no reason to use Delphox over the plethora of better Scarfers available on Fire like Iron Moth and Arcanine-H. It's a mediocre mon without a niche on Fire unfortunately.

Arcanine-H definitely isn't a staple mon on Fire, but I have found it to be pretty good personally. Yes, it's not switching in to anything, but being able to spam Scarf Flare Blitz off a decent Attack stat under Sun with no fear of knocking yourself out with recoil is very strong, and Head Smash is obviously a fantastic secondary STAB to punch through Fire resists with. It also has coverage options like Close Combat for Heatran, Wild Charge to ease the Water MU without having to rely on Head Smash's 80 accuracy, and Extreme Speed if you want priority. In terms of MUs [Arcan probably the best option Fire has for dealing with Flying.

Also, Volcanion is absolutely essential on Fire even with Sun; it can still make use of its boosted Fire STABs and you really have no shot at beating Water at all without it. It's incredibly valuable for dealing with random Water mons like Toxapex and Azumarill also; I would always bring it on Fire.

+1 Volcarona sort of just does what it wants against standard Flying already as most teams don't run Gyarados and the most consistent answer Flying usually has is Dragonite's Extremespeed which runs the risk of a burn proc. Arcanine-H offers a bit of insurance here, sure, at steep cost to other matchups due to its typing. Iron Moth does the same job with similar access to Discharge (and Energy Ball) for the Water matchup at a much higher speed tier, admittedly with the tradeoff of not being able to hit Heatran.

Sun Fire has a fair matchup against rainless Water without Walking Wake present. If WW is present you lose regardless of whether or not you're running Volcanion.

As for Fire mirrors, it offers utility there but: a) how often are you playing this matchup, b) I'm just not convinced by a scarfer that slow when Iron Moth (which gets Discharge and Energy Ball for Water) exists at a much better speed tier for the meta despite its issues..

Heatran is only on two mu and not super common on fire, that doesn't really diminish moths viability

Heatran is easily one of the most important mons in the tier and it is a very big deal to have your type's main scarfer get completely walled by it.

Typhlosion absolutely doesn't suck and I have easily 6-0 teams by leading tork, yawning, and swapping to typhlosion and just clicking eruption with a scarf. Hisui should probably be moved to b tier because sucker absolutely crushes it
Torkoal is not a must, just very good to have, so that doesn't clash with volcanion at
Harcanine doesn't care about its weaknesses, wild charge avoids accuracy problems, and is very good for pex or peli, and CC is just a worse HJK from ace, which is almost always paired with harcanine anyway. Harcanine is better than Tauros for offense, worse for utility, and yeah Delphox is pretty trash but it has some utility in its movepool that could be worth something to someone, and it's better than the 3 d tiers

Everyone's experience is valid but I wouldn't use the performance of mons in games at 1200 as indicative of much more than it being playable in Monotype. If a fairly weak base 100 scarfer with no secondary STAB is 6-0ing teams that's quite obviously more of an indictment of your opponents' teambuilding fundamentals than a testament to Typhlosion's efficacy. It's probably worth reading the VR thread from this gen and last gen for a better understanding of the rationales behind why mons get placed where they do.

Harcanine is better than Tauros for offense, worse for utility

The utility is what matters. Fire has no shortage of press to kill options, especially under Sun.

 

[SilverOnSmogon]

The topic about Regieleki...

Regieleki (The Fastest Pokemon in Monotype) serves one purpose of being a nuisance in Monotype formats, as its incredible speed allows it to outspeed any non-boosted Pokemon it can be paired with Volt Switch Tapu Koko. The Rising Voltage Regieleki "strategy" is a chain of attacks that ruins the fun and entertainment in Monotype, the formats would be significantly if Regieleki was banned or if Rising Voltage was banned.

 

[wkxkevin]

The topic about Regieleki...

Regieleki (The Fastest Pokemon in Monotype) serves one purpose of being a nuisance in Monotype formats, as its incredible speed allows it to outspeed any non-boosted Pokemon it can be paired with Volt Switch Tapu Koko. The Rising Voltage Regieleki "strategy" is a chain of attacks that ruins the fun and entertainment in Monotype, the formats would be significantly if Regieleki was banned or if Rising Voltage was banned.

This is not the correct place to post this. This is for the SV monotype metagame. In this metagame, regieleki does not have access to rising voltage. Also, Tapu koko is not in the metagame. Therefore, my best guess is that you meant the Nat Dex Meta, in which case, please make you post to this link: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-natdex-monotype-metagame-discussion.3710738/
Yes, there is a separate forum for nat dex mono.

 

[Pengairxan]

Okay making a brief post about the new stuff confirmed for DLC, mainly in the possibly big wins for Poison thanks to the new information here: https://scarletviolet.pokemon.com/en-us/news/dlc_pokemon/
The Three of the new Teal Mask legends, Okidogi, Munkidori, and Fezandipiti will have the ability "Toxic Chain" which is effectively Poison touch but
A: It does not need to have the move contact the opponent (Fezandipiti was shown using Air Slash which doesn't contact normally)
B: It Badly Poisons.
Poison Touch is already solid on Non Unburden Sneaslers and every variant of AMuk and this better version will likely be amazing (Possibly broken if the chance is too high) on all types these mons end up on.
Speaking of types, these are likely going to be Poison types and while a new 570~580 Poison in Okidogi and Munkidori will be cool, Fezandipiti is likely going to be a Flying type (It is a bird and was shown using Air Slash) meaning that despite Crobat and Weezing being unaccounted for, a Bulky Ground immunity could be coming in the DLC for Poison.

Also in not Poison news, Scald might be making a proper comeback in the second DLC:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1671539312746176512

Oh boy.

 

[mushamu]

 

[showdownperson]

Okay making a brief post about the new stuff confirmed for DLC, mainly in the possibly big wins for Poison thanks to the new information here: https://scarletviolet.pokemon.com/en-us/news/dlc_pokemon/
The Three of the new Teal Mask legends, Okidogi, Munkidori, and Fezandipiti will have the ability "Toxic Chain" which is effectively Poison touch but
A: It does not need to have the move contact the opponent (Fezandipiti was shown using Air Slash which doesn't contact normally)
B: It Badly Poisons.
Poison Touch is already solid on Non Unburden Sneaslers and every variant of AMuk and this better version will likely be amazing (Possibly broken if the chance is too high) on all types these mons end up on.
Speaking of types, these are likely going to be Poison types and while a new 570~580 Poison in Okidogi and Munkidori will be cool, Fezandipiti is likely going to be a Flying type (It is a bird and was shown using Air Slash) meaning that despite Crobat and Weezing being unaccounted for, a Bulky Ground immunity could be coming in the DLC for Poison.

Also in not Poison news, Scald might be making a proper comeback in the second DLC:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1671539312746176512

Oh boy.

Very good for poison, getting a proper
ground immunity they kinda needed, and also, SCALD IS BACK BOYS! TOXAPEX IS GONNA BE A MENACE AGAIN! (Also, Gliscor, Crawdaunt, and many other mons are returning so yay!)

 

[wkxkevin]

Very good for poison, getting a proper
ground immunity they kinda needed, and also, SCALD IS BACK BOYS! TOXAPEX IS GONNA BE A MENACE AGAIN! (Also, Gliscor, Crawdaunt, and many other mons are returning so yay!)

I sincerely apologize ahead of time because I'm about to rant.

I hate to be cynical and pessimistic but I absolutely despise these changes. First of all, toxapex getting nerfed was a thing that I much appreciated from gamefreak. That pokemon shut down so many strategies it's legitimately unfair. Second, poison is not really a popular type, popular as in liked, not as in usage because in terms of usage, poison is actually used decently often and I think it has a chance to join top tier types like dark in the first dlc. The reason poison has a bad rep is because it's known for spamming toxic and toxic spikes and stalling the opponent with 3x regenerator(which it still has in SV) and now that not only will it get SS pex back, but it's also getting an actual legit ground immunity. Toxic chain does not make it any better. Lastly, the prominence of poison will bring the rise of steel(which will get access to spikes skarm in dlc) which is also a bad change as that type is also known for having a semi stall archetype.

Second, scald. Scald is without question, the worst move in the game before SV. The main reason is that too many pokemon get it. Water is already insane, it does not need scald. The biggest problem I have with scald is that it has an obscene 30% burn rate. This is a death sentence to so many physical attackers it's not funny. In SS, I want you to count, how many times did you secretly pray in hopes that the scald is not going to burn? And then count how many times it burned when you absolutely needed it not to? Scald adds a luck factor which I do not believe is healthy. The worst part is that the move is water type and has 80 base power. The only type immune to burns are fire types(or flash fire pokemon but they are all fire types apart from a LC pokemon) and scald is a water type move. This means the only way to avoid to scald burn is to face an effective 160 bp move. Personally, I never thought of this move as healthy and even though I have endured it since BW, I do not welcome its return.

TLDR. I absolutely hate these changes. I'm praying that milotic gets scald by level up in this game or that its distribution is limited and especially does not reach pokemon like the sires, pex, etc. If not, then I have to endure it and deal with it, which given I'm ranting, is not something I want to do.

 

[showdownperson]

How I feel about the reveals (rant warning):

Toxic Chain, if the trio are all part poison types, will be even more problematic, which, paired with poison already being good enough offensively and incredible defensively, will cause steel types (and mono-steel itself) to shoot up in popularity, in which case poison can bring salazzle for corrosion + flamethrower, enabling the tri/dual regenerator core to do its thing.

Scald. Oh lord, scald. Practically every water type will be getting it and that likely includes the screw you known as toxapex, which not only gives water the ability to burn the opponent 30% of the time, crippling physical attackers and bulky walls alike with reduced physical attack and chip damage every turn.

New mons. Not a problem in itself, and could even be a blessing in disguise, with gliscor potentially making plays due to potentially coming in on a toxic, thus now getting a constant healing source, while still having the option to maintain the item slot, which enables life orb swords dance gliscor to be a thing, and the best counter poison has that I can think of is max HP toxapex/amoongus, which still likely won't be enough to stop this bat scorpion thing from ripping a few holes in mono-poison.