From my suspicion, I think it will. Psychic noise is a move that create a bunch of sound waves usign psychic energy. Therefore, at least from a lore perspective, any pokemon with access to psychic and psyshock should get this. So I would not be surprised if it did. If it is as I suspected, iron valiant and flutter mane will get it and poison as mentioned will be completely gutted.
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Other Pre-DLC SV Monotype Metagame Discussion
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The biggest winners of this DLC seem to be dark and ice lol
Ice needed it, it was solid last gen but struggling this time. Dark doesn’t need any more buffs, it’s had everything go its way this gen. Bug, Normal and Rock need the buffs most now imo
All dark needed was hazard removal, and it got precisely that, now dark struggles with 6 pokemon syndrome, ice, however, needed a lot of things.
Correct me if i'm wrong but mamo is coming in teal mask and not indigo disk? I could've sworn both it and A-Ninetales was coming together, also we need to see is Mandibuzz has defog or not considering they removed defog on alot of mon, mandibuzz may have suffered the same fate as well
Yeah that was a mistake my bad mammoth and artic fox are coming in the Teal Mask. In SwSh, Mandibuzz learns Defog at level 64.
Like I said we need to see if it still learns defog, because a lot of mons lost it THIS Generation. Unless I missed something here
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I'm actually happy mandibuzz is back(it learns defog by lvl up so it'll prob get it). I hate facing dark and the main reason is chien pao. I despise playing against that. If mandi can defog for pao, I think pao has absolutely, unequivocally, quick-ban worthy. As a chien pao hater, I look forward to those changes. Also, buzz being back means I don't have to deal the the BS that is sableye often. Hence, another reason to rejoice and most importantly, look on the bright side.
To be honest, I don't think Chien will be quick banned. If nothing was done this long about it, where it was a bigger threat back then than it is now (and will be, because I don't think dark will overpower say water or fairy) then I don't think the inclusion of mandibuzz will change much. I can definitely see the possibility is a bit bigger, especially since Ice will finally be decent, dare say good? So chien pao will be seen more often. But we shall see.
Observation after trying to ladder with Poison for the core challenge: it sucks. It is way too passive, Mortal Spin is your only hazard control, and switching around your regen core gives your opponent way too many free turns. It also wants to run about 9 mons but of course only has 6 slots.
Maybe I’m just really bad with defensive teams, that’s quite possible, but so far I’ve hated laddering with Poison.
Maybe I’m just really bad with defensive teams, that’s quite possible, but so far I’ve hated laddering with Poison.
Alright, call me crazy, but I think I can cook up a somewhat offensive poison team with revavroom somewhere on it.
I mean you could run an offensive poison team if you really wanted to but why? So many other types do that better.
TheRealBigC
I COULD BE BANNED!
Having played the same challenge, I really don't think you can fairly say Poison "sucks" in this meta. It has some unfortunate matchups against some of the best types in the game: it really struggles against Kingambit on Dark unless you keep a Sneasler healthy, even physically defensive Helmet Pex can be broken down easily with enough Supreme Overlord boosts; difficult to deal with Lando-T on Flying (offensive sets especially completely clean out a lot of Poison teams), Dnite and blanket T Spikes immunity are also big issues; Steel and Ground are naturally uphill battles even if you have tools to deal with them in Salazzle, Moth and Air Balloon Glimm. However, Poison also has a lot of pretty good matchups too, in particular against Water, Fairy, and Fighting. Poison has overall the best defensive profile of any type right now bar Flying imo thanks to the Regen core, all of which are fantastic mons that go very well together and cover each other's weaknesses. Not having a natural Ground immunity is a pain, but Air Balloon Glimm and Amoonguss can mitigate this decently well. I don't think spinning is hard on Poison, Air Balloon Glimm is a great mon that threatens a lot of stuff and has the speed to spin pretty readily; Steels aren't everywhere in the tier. The Regen core is also assisted by mons like Muk-A, who can Knock Off HDBs and open up foes to being worn down by T Spikes and is just a solid mon in general, as well as Salazzle who can pretty easily Toxic mons like Heatran, Corv, and opposing Pex if you can get it in. Sneasler is a great breaker, cleaner, and source of speed control, with Poison Touch Band/Scarf U-Turn being an incredible tool for generating progress and synergizing strongly with the Regen core. Outside of these you also have other good options like Moth, Gengar and Clod who can all serve teams well. I wouldn't say it's passive at all; you can easily rack up hazard damage by pivoting around and you have a lot of strong progress-generating options like Muk-A and Sneasler. Switching around your Regen core usually does not give your opponents free turns unless you've been played into a corner. I do think Poison is overall around a mid-low B tier type due to the issue you mentioned of not really being able to run all the mons you would like at once and its uneven matchup spread, but it's still a solid pick in my opinion.
Sorry brother
For the same reason that I can run both weavile and chien-pao on the same team for ice
because why not? (and because I just like the challenge of making an offensive team for a defensive type)
Because it might fit better into your playstyle better overall and Poison has a solid selection of Offensive Poison mons from Sneasler to Gengar.
Also because NOBODY EXPECTS THE HYPER OFFENSIVE POISON!
Yessir this person cookin' with the life orb amoongus
in all seriousness, I do happen to have a replay of my offensive poison team doing pretty well in low ladder, which probably makes my viewpoint matter less but I'm still putting it in (mods, please let me know if it's alright to post replays in here so I can edit this post and put the replay in because I don't want to get banned thanks)
I think you analyze is good but is missing key things and I will explain why poison is definitively not low B, and confidently sits in the C tier(below are the F tier types:normal, grass, rock)
You mentioned that glimm can spin easily because steels aren't everywhere in the tier. I completely disagree. If you look at it, here is a list of types that a has a Steel type in the A or S tier, ergo they are almost always run a steel type:
Bug(Scizor and Forretress)
Dark(Kingambit)
Dragon(Hoodra)
Electric(Magnezone)
Fairy(Klefki)
Fire(Heatran)
Flying(Corv)
Ghost(Gholdengo)
Ground(Iron Treads)
Steel(Everything)
If you look at it closely, most of those are S and A types, which means that about 90% of types you are going to meet on ladder has a very good steel type. The only somewhat of an exception is ground but with ground, poison is not getting through if the ground player goes on the offensive as amoonguss will eventually crumble. Let's now look at the types that do not have a good steel. First, grass, normal and rock are all F-tier so they don't matter much. Psychic has no problem blasting through poison as a few predicts and the a-muk is gone(even with skill, you are not favored at all to win this MU even with hazard spam) and poison is yourself. The only types left that matter is water, ice, and fighting. Water and ice both have strong sweepers that can break through you and fighting, although does not have a great matchup, can still do well because Tusk spamming headlong rush is very hard to switch into. This does not help with the fact that tusk can spin as air balloon glimora comes in and instantly make you loose a ground switch. However, most of these teams are not going to set up a lot of hazards. Most of them just set up rocks and call it a day. Although ice sometimes run spiking froslass and water runs spikes on hamurott or quag, those are the only time glimmora spinning even matters.
Then you talked abotu running salazzle, here is the problem with that. On poison, glim, pex, and among are mandatory, a-muk and sneasler basically are as well(you can't argue with the VR). This means you have one pokemon left. Runnign salazzle comes at the oppotunity cost of a third regenerator pokemon is glowking, the great wall clodsire, or the offensive menace iron-moth. Running salazzle over moth isn't even an easy question as moth can actually threaten to break substitutes(which is a huge pain for poison) which salazzle, waiting to run a wall set with toxic protect, sub, and an attacking move just could not wise to do nearly as well as moth. The higher speed is nice but you still get outsped by key targets like cinderace, sneasler, and especially, greninja.
To conclude, you said that despite an uneven MU and 6 pokemon syndrome, poison is solid granting a low B-tier. That cannot be far from the truth. The only top tier type poison does well against is water and fairy, and the only high tier type it does well against is fighting. The others legit don't matter. Both water and fairy have plenty of ways to beat poison like sub CM mane on fairy and Sub BU urshifu, neither of which are particularly niche sets. The same goes for fighting. Just tusk itself is hard for poison to manage. Let alone the the fact the val often runs psychic coverage and iron hands could be a pain. This is not to add for the fact the MOST of top types destroy it: dark, flying, steel, etc.
I think that solely based on your claim of poison's uneven MU and 6 pokemon syndrome is enough to warrant poison a C tier. By my opinion it could even be low C-tier. So yes, I will say it, poison is one of the worst types in the game right now I'm very happy for that because poison's playstyle is not very likeable.
TheRealBigC
I COULD BE BANNED!
A type having a Steel does not mean spinning with Glimm is impossible by any means; it's the same principle of needing to remove Ghosts before clicking Rapid Spin in OU. Of these Steel types you mentioned, most of them do not want to switch into a potential Earth Power from Glimm, which can create mindgames and give you opportunities to spin even against teams with Steels. Poison also has a lot of good options for removing Steels, including Sneasler, Iron Moth, and Salazzle.
Completely disagree, basically nothing on Psychic can break through Muk-A besides Gallade and maybe Hoopa-U, both of which can be fairly outmaneuvered defensively or offensively. Slowking-G can also act as a check to Psychic spam. I think this matchup is pretty neutral honestly, but even if it was negative, it wouldn't be especially important given how fringe Psychic is in the current meta due to its many flaws.
The combination of Pex, Amoon, and Muk-A wall all of Water's breakers (unless you run into something niche like Zen Headbutt Urshifu-R, but even then you can live one hit with Amoon or Pex and status it). Ice I will concede you have a hard time against Bax on Ice, but I wouldn't say it's unwinnable
Usually if Tusk is using Headlong, it's Choice locked and you can exploit this with Air Balloon Glimm. Amoon also is not 2HKO'd by unboosted Headlong, and can Spore/Giga in return. I do think non-Choice offensive Tusk does extremely well against Poison, but that's the only mon on Fighting that really threatens the type besides the rare Gallade.
All I said was that Salazzle is a good option, I didn't say it was mandatory and of course other picks may be preferred depending on playstyle. I think frankly you should explore team structures that drop either Sneasler or Muk-A, those two mons obviously do an incredible amount for Poison and dropping one of them comes with significant draw backs, but I think it's reasonable to drop Sneasler for something like Salazzle or Iron Moth and Muk-A for Slowking-G, as they have similar roles in teams while having their own unique strengths. That being said I do generally agree that most of the time you should use the 5 mons in A and S tier, and generally Poison suffers from not having enough teamslots to be able to defensively answer everything as I said in my original post.
Salazzle readily exploits sub set-up mons by running Encore > Protect. Moth has a different role to Salazzle; Salazzle is a utility stallbreaker, while Iron Moth is a breaker/cleaner (although they are both run to deal with Steels).
These match-ups are valuable enough to make it B tier for me. I would also say it's neutral into Ghost.
Then why did you mention Bug, Psychic, and Ice in your analysis?
Sub CM Mane does not beat Muk-A. Sub BU Urshifu-R does not beat Pex or Amoon.
"Destroy" is too far, I agree they're unfavourable matchups, but they are winnable. Poison's inherent strengths of having both a bunch of fat Regen mons as well as good breakers does allow for some counterplay against problem mons.
SV Mono players when they see a team that isn't HO hazard stack
Overall, I do agree with some of you what you say here, but a lot of the arguments you raise aren't very convincing imo. I think you're too focused on Poison's weaknesses, while somewhat ignoring its obvious strengths.
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I'm also going to chip in on this point.
Outside of what, Gholdengo and rest Hoodra? Not a single steel wants to switch into Glimmora for fear of Toxic. And if the counter argument of "Toxic debris Glimmora" comes up, I'm going to have to disagree as I'm basically it from what I understand for Debris users on Poison and that is only because
A. I'm lazy and can't be bothered to run Toxic Spikes otherwise.
B. Everyone else is running Corrosion that my Debris is not as expected (or would be if I wasn't always debris)
And when they do come in and get hit with a Toxic, some of Poison's worse matchups are suddenly given much bigger holes, Gambit Dark (Sneasler can play wilder since it doesn't have to worry about the Gambit Pao 1-2 Punch), Corviknight Flying (Stealth rocks are now staying up and AMuk can cause more problems with Knock off support) Iron treads Ground (Amoonguss can now Giga drain much more safely) all removed thanks to them needing to switch in to stop mortal spin.
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I don't know why I decided to post at 3 am but here I am. What I'm trying to say and I didn't express very well is that poison suffers from 6 pokemon syndrome very badly. Forgoing any pokemon means you will loose a bunch of MU. Yes, water does indeed lose pretty hard to amoong and pex but I don't think that having 3 good MUs against top types is enough. It's a bit like grass in gen 8. It does pretty well against top types like electric and water and is considered a great anti-meta type but that doesn't dismiss the fact that overall, grass is hot garbage. I think poison falls into a similar boat. It's a great anti-meta type but that is not that good overall. For example, if you run iron moth in the last slot, you're going to lose to tran, if you are foregoing sneasler in favor of something else, gambit is going to completely screw you over. Poison teams basically have to choose what types to do better in at team preview.
Addressing some of the points you brought up.
1.You said psychic is not beating poison without gallade and hoopa-U but here is the thing, almost every team is going run hoopa-U, most teams are going to run gallade, and a lot of teams will run both. The problem is that gallade is hard to play against because more and more people are running it non choiced. Either agility/sword dance or just 4 attacks. This is a huge problem as the only pokemon that outspeed are glim and sneasler. If gallade is agility, you have to use sash glim or fake out normal gem unburden sneasler. Then there is hoopa-U. Since psychic has so many special attackers, most hoopa-U in psychic will be physical. That is very bad because hoopa-U has knock off which could prove to be devastating if you plan on using a-muk's AV. I think this MU is not completely one-sided but I will say it's very bad. With correct maneuvering, a-muk + sneasler can break through.
2. Toxic Debris Glim: basically every pokemon on your team can set up t-spikes, why use toxic debris? I don't understand why that was even relevant to the discussion as I think both me and TheRealBigC knew that while we were arguing. Yes toxic is very bad unless you run rest hoodra or dengo but if you look at the steels I mentioned, most of them don't rly care about getting toxiced. You can make a case for foretress, heatran, corv, and maybe klefki but those are defo gonna be running offensive sets. This comes back to a problem of the gen 9 meta. As pengair mentioned, most people are stuck with HO brains. There is a reason for that. Defensive teams are very difficult to pull off and I praise poison for being able to do so. For example, take steel. Steel was famous for stacking spikes in gen 8 and now it's running stuff like scarf/air balloon offensive heatran and offensive BU taunt corv. Speaking of spikes...
3. Glimmora does indeed threaten a lot of steels with earth power + toxic. However, with the rise of air balloon on a lot of steel + the prevalence of offensive sets, the problem doesn't lie with spinning anymore, it lies with glim's longevity. The reason you could maneuver around spiin block with ghosts in previous gens was because most ghosts are very frail and pursuit was a thing. Steel are famous for being very hard to KO and even if you manage to KO the steel. Your glimmora will likely be relatively low at that point. Giving the opponent the time to set the hazards back up. The essence of poison is to make a team comp that is very hard to kill and can wear down the opponent until they faint or until you have something like sneasler to clean up. Therefore, it's crucial for the spinner to have that longevity. However, glim has the stats of an offensive pokemon. Even if you invest in bulk, glim's longevity will eventually get the team to crupple. You can say I have a skill issue, but the majority of games I lost with poison are due to glim lacking the bulk to keep hazards down.
4. I said "Both water and fairy have plenty of ways to beat poison like sub CM mane on fairy and Sub BU urshifu, neither of which are particularly niche sets." Please excuse this, I don't know what kind of drug I was on.
5. I also said "This is not to add for the fact the MOST of top types destroy it: dark, flying, steel, etc." I would say most types don't destroy poison but the important ones certainly do. Prankster sab with encore and taunt is a huge problem on dark and the presence of SD boots chien with gambit ready to sweep is very unfavorable, possibly 80-20 MU. Steel is a curb stomp unless you can get dengo out early on. Flying has dragonite an offensive lando which are bakc by corv, making life very hard unless you spam the daylight out of corrosion toxic. Ghost is not even for the sole fact that a lot of zoro-h are running knock off, making it very risky to freely bring in A-muk and dengo will always be a problem esp with air balloon. I would say ghost vs poison is more along the lines of 60-40 rather than 50-50.
6. As for great tusk, if head long run sets are CB, you can indeed abuse it with air balloon glim but one CC and you are screwed. I would argue that it depends on the skill of the player but fighting MU is defo not easy for poison. It might be favorable for poison but it more like a 60-40 situation.
TLDR: Poison occupies a very important role as it keeps 3 top types in check but loses somewhat badly to the rest. I think its role is very important because this meta, like you said, lacks defensive team styles. However, if we look at the type from an overall standpoint, I cannot put it in B-tier, I can't justify it.
Viability rankings on the types themselves (yes I'm late by a couple of pages, needed time to consider).
Types listed in alphabetical order.
S Rank - The best types, they're easy to use and get consistently good results with.
Dark, Steel, Water
A Rank - While not quite as good as S, they are still solid types that will rarely steer you wrong.
Dragon, Fairy, Fighting, Flying, Ground
B Rank - Good types overall, though held back by significant flaws
Fire, Ghost, Ice
C Rank - Types that tend to be thoroughly mediocre, they can work but nearly everything they do is done better by something else
Bug, Electric, Grass, Poison, Psychic
D Rank - Types that are just downright awful
Normal, Rock
A few random notes
Types listed in alphabetical order.
S Rank - The best types, they're easy to use and get consistently good results with.
Dark, Steel, Water
A Rank - While not quite as good as S, they are still solid types that will rarely steer you wrong.
Dragon, Fairy, Fighting, Flying, Ground
B Rank - Good types overall, though held back by significant flaws
Fire, Ghost, Ice
C Rank - Types that tend to be thoroughly mediocre, they can work but nearly everything they do is done better by something else
Bug, Electric, Grass, Poison, Psychic
D Rank - Types that are just downright awful
Normal, Rock
A few random notes
Almost swapped Ice and Electric, but Ice I feel does all out offensive better than Electric since it has better boosting sweepers in the form of Baxcalibur, Cloyster and Cetitan. Electric really misses Tapu Koko and Rising Voltage.
Almost put Ghost in A, but the fragility of Ghost teams generally means they're pretty easy to sweep for most good types once Skeledirge is gone.
Bug I don't feel is as bad as everyone says it is. From my experience it's a strong anti meta type, does well against Dark and weirdly Steel (once Heatran is down and Hisuian Goodra is weakened, Volcarona blitzes). It’s still not a good type hence C rank, but it’s not terrible.
I hate Poison. It's too passive, gets wrecked by almost everything apart from Fairy and Water.
After the sheer agony of laddering with Rock, I was amazed to find myself hating Normal almost as much. What matchups does it actually do well in?
Almost put Ghost in A, but the fragility of Ghost teams generally means they're pretty easy to sweep for most good types once Skeledirge is gone.
Bug I don't feel is as bad as everyone says it is. From my experience it's a strong anti meta type, does well against Dark and weirdly Steel (once Heatran is down and Hisuian Goodra is weakened, Volcarona blitzes). It’s still not a good type hence C rank, but it’s not terrible.
I hate Poison. It's too passive, gets wrecked by almost everything apart from Fairy and Water.
After the sheer agony of laddering with Rock, I was amazed to find myself hating Normal almost as much. What matchups does it actually do well in?
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Hello, we don't have exact details of the timeline (will be discussed more within the council closer to the DLC release on how best to handle the DLC drops). However, we will most likely be voting on which of the already-banned Pokemon, we'll be freeing along with the DLC drops, if any, a few days before the DLC drops. The box legends (and some others) will probably be banned as soon as DLC hits as we do every gen and the first wave of quick bans will be voted on within the first week after DLC drops. Subsequent voting slates will be following that (if needed) in a timely manner without taking too long and then we'll move to suspect tests if deemed necessary. None of these are finalized though so are subject to change but hope this gives you and anyone else who was wondering a rough idea of what to expect.
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