Probably my last 4th Gen OU: Hyper-Offensive

[maxbarnyard]

Hello, fellow Smogoners. After my last RMT (a moderately successful in-game stall team) I decided that I wanted to focus a bit more on offense, and this is the most recent offensive team that I've made. I've been working largely with the articles in the Smog relating to team cores and lead synergy, with varying levels of success, so I've decided to reach out the the all-knowing community for help. Keep in mind that this team will primarily be used in-game over the wifi. So here we go...

Starmie @ Life Orb
Natural Cure
Timid: 252 SpA, 4 HP, 252 Spe
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Rapid Spin

This goes along with the following Metagross, so analysis will go below him

Metagross @ Lum Berry
Adamant: 248 HP, 232 Atk, 28 Spe (open to changing)
- Meteor Mash
- Earthquake
- Bullet Punch
- Stealth Rock

Being that Gyarados is a central sweeper on the team, Starmie supports him with spin support and the ability to take down some of Gyarados' common checks, most notably Skarmory. However, because Gyarados runs Taunt, there is some flexibility in Starmie's role on the team. Additionally, Starmie has great lead synergy with Metagross, taking out the top ten leads with fairly little trouble. Metagross' EVs are geared to giving him an odd HP stat with almost maxed Attack and a Speed stat of 183, allowing him to beat outspeed some common counters, though I cannot remember which at this time (the pair was written up and EV trained in-game a long time ago). The decision to run EQ + MM over one of the two with Explosion was simply to take down more common leads, and at this point I'm finding that I'm missing Explosion a lot of the time, so I'd probably throw it over MM to keep the OHKO on any Heatran switch-ins. Any thoughts on that decision would be appreciated. How the pair deals with the most common leads can be seen in Scofield's excellent article here: http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue9/leads

Gyarados @ Leftovers
Adamant: 156 HP, 72 Atk, 96 Def, 184 Spe
- Waterfall
- Taunt
- Dragon Dance
- Stone Edge / Bounce

I'm currently running Stone Edge but in a battle today I got wrecked by a Machamp and a Celebi, so I'm thinking that I should run Bounce instead. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Other than that, this is a standard Bulky Gyarados, which I chose for its ability to deal with Skarmory better than an offensive Dragon Dancer. Given that I am using a GyaraJolt core, Blissey and Skarmory would normally be an infernal pain, but with Taunt on Gyarados I can set up on both of them.

Jolteon @ Life Orb
Timid: 252 SpA, 4 SpD, 252 Spe
- Thunderbolt
- Shadow Ball
- HP Ice
- Substitute

I was considering using a Specs Jolteon in this slot, but I wanted the versatility that Life Orb offers, especially considering that a third of my current team is choiced. We already know the great synergy between Gyarados and Jolteon, as each is immune to the other's most prominent weakness. I preferred Jolteon over Electivire for its better Special Attack and the fact that I Electivire bores me a bit. I chose HP Ice over HP Grass because Swampert doesn't scare me even close to as much as Dragonite, Flygon, and Gliscor do, as any one of them can pose a problem if given the opportunity.

Flygon @ Choice Scarf
Jolly: 252 Atk, 4 SpD, 252 Spe
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Stone Edge

Flygon is probably my favorite Scarf user, second maybe to Heatran. Additionally, I was afraid of the prospect of an Electivire coming in on a Thunderbolt from Jolteon and proceeding to tear my team apart. Beyond just Electivire, Flygon helps against Celebi, Jirachi, Metagross, Kingdra, the list goes on. I can't say enough how much I love this guy. Too bad about B/W...

Scizor @ Choice Band
Technician
Adamant: 248 HP, 252 Atk, 8 Spe
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn
- Superpower
- Pursuit

I wanted physical utility that can hit really hard and clean up, and Scizor does that like a pro. Additionally, its massively powerful U-turns (the most powerful in OU, if I'm remembering correctly... I am) will leave gaping holes in the opposing team if I predict correctly (and sometimes even when I don't). Scizor's only weakness is covered by half the team, and he brings useful resistances to ice, grass, and dragon to the table that are hard to pass up. Finally, it can pursuit things like Starmie and Gengar to death (gotta be careful of MysticGars) and just generally whittle away the opposing team's health.

Thank you, venerable Smogoners, and I hope you are all having a nice winter (hooray for the solstice!). I look forward to hearing what you think of the team!

 

[Aerrow]

Cool team you have here. It seems to be pretty solid as the general strategy and structure of this teams to be quite stable, seeing as your team is constantly putting high levels of pressure upon the opponent's ranks while at the same time, getting the field ready for a sweep from one of your own sweepers; the synergy your Pokemon share amongst each other seems pretty solid as well. Honestly, I don't see many Pokemon that can give this team many problems, because, as I said, the core of this team seems to be pretty strong. However, I see Pokemon like Suicune and opposing Gyarados to be problems, so I suggest you replace stone edge on Flygon to thunderpunch as this will allow the dragon to better handle the aforementioned threats. And now, with Flygon being able to (more better) handle opposing Gyarados, you are free to replace Stone Edge with bounce on your Gyarados to help out with the Machamp weakness this team currently has; I guess bounce would help with Celebi also. Lastly, I suggest you try out explosion somewhere on Metagross as this will allow your team to start the game off with a high level of momentum, upon which Flygon and Scizor can build on, allowing Gyarados or Jolteon to have an easier time setting up and sweeping. I hope this has helped, and good luck!

 

[y4f]

Aerrow basically said everything I planned on saying. Nifty.

Your lead synergy looks good. Starmie can threaten most leads a ton with the LO Hydro Pump, so it's definitely an effective lead.

Run TPunch over Stone Edge to outspeed and check +1 max speed Gyarados.

For BulkyDos, I've personally always ran Stone Edge in order to hit stuff like other Gyarados, BulkyDos (and by this I mean Bulky Zapdos), and other somewhat bulky Dragon / Flyers. For that reason, I would consider keeping Stone Edge simply for the Gyarados mirror match and to handle Bulky Zapdos, which in actuality gives your team quite a bit of trouble. It can OHKO Starmie after rocks, while I don't think Starmie can OHKO back. It hits Metagross hard with Heat Wave and resists MM / BP / EQ (possibly Explosion on here could help with that, as Aerrow said). Stomps Gyarados w/o Stone Edge, walls Scizor, and variants with HP Ice can take a hit from Flygon and KO back. Jolteon can 2HKO, but it'll take heavy LO damage and can get Roost-stalled.

I would personally keep Stone Edge, but throw in another check to Machamp. I'm not sure what at this point, but the first thing that comes to mind is some sort of flying dragon in place of flygon to take Dynamicpunch and KO with a boosted stab Draco Meteor or something like that. Maybe a DNite? Or you could go with a gimmicky route and run Psychic on your Starmie over Rapid Spin, seeing as you only have 1 SR-weak pokemon, and already have a good stall-breaker in the form of Bulky Dos (which sets up on SkarmBliss). It could catch some LeadMachamp offguard.

Alright, good luck with the team and have a good winter yourself!

 

[maxbarnyard]

Thanks, guys! I like your suggestions, and have a couple more questions.

Aerrow: I looked at the calcs and saw that Flygon's Thunderpunch is pretty piss-poor against Suicune, but it'd be an easy OHKO on most opposing Gyara if I can get rocks up. That said, Explosion would deal with enemy Suicune assuming Jolteon's gone already, since its Thunderbolt OHKOs unboosted Suicune pretty often, especially with rocks up (according to Smogon's calculator), and if I happen to have a sub up I get a guaranteed 2HKO if it hasn't boosted yet, and probably even if it has. Given that, what might you suggest?

y4f: I agree that, with only one SR-weak member on the team, spin support isn't entirely necessary, so Psychic on Starmie would be a hilarious way to deal with lead Machamp, but at the cost of possibly having to sacrifice Starmie, since even a Life Orbed STAB Psychic only does 93.4% - 110.8% to lead Machamp, not a guaranteed OHKO (bums me out). A 62% chance to OHKO is nice, but for contrast that's only 2% more likely than a Hypnosis is to ever hit (just something with similar percentage, I know it's a bit random). That said, what would be good to cover up for another Machamp counter? I was thinking that Scizor would probably be the best member to replace, but I'll defer to you and Aerrow (and the rest of the community).

To both of you: I recently actually was using this team on the wifi and got stalled to death (or rather, I quit when, at a 6-3 disadvantage, I gave up) by a Substitute + Magnet Rise Magnezone with HP Fire, which annihilated my Scizor. Any thoughts? The situation was compounded by the use of an unorthodox Thunder Wave Jirachi lead which paralyzed my Metagross (I stayed in to get rocks up but should just have switched to Flygon to absorb the T-Wave, in retrospect). Again, any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks, guys!

 

[y4f]

Thanks, guys! I like your suggestions, and have a couple more questions.

Aerrow: I looked at the calcs and saw that Flygon's Thunderpunch is pretty piss-poor against Suicune, but it'd be an easy OHKO on most opposing Gyara if I can get rocks up. That said, Explosion would deal with enemy Suicune assuming Jolteon's gone already, since its Thunderbolt OHKOs unboosted Suicune pretty often, especially with rocks up (according to Smogon's calculator), and if I happen to have a sub up I get a guaranteed 2HKO if it hasn't boosted yet, and probably even if it has. Given that, what might you suggest?

y4f: I agree that, with only one SR-weak member on the team, spin support isn't entirely necessary, so Psychic on Starmie would be a hilarious way to deal with lead Machamp, but at the cost of possibly having to sacrifice Starmie, since even a Life Orbed STAB Psychic only does 93.4% - 110.8% to lead Machamp, not a guaranteed OHKO (bums me out). A 62% chance to OHKO is nice, but for contrast that's only 2% more likely than a Hypnosis is to ever hit (just something with similar percentage, I know it's a bit random). That said, what would be good to cover up for another Machamp counter? I was thinking that Scizor would probably be the best member to replace, but I'll defer to you and Aerrow (and the rest of the community).

To both of you: I recently actually was using this team on the wifi and got stalled to death (or rather, I quit when, at a 6-3 disadvantage, I gave up) by a Substitute + Magnet Rise Magnezone with HP Fire, which annihilated my Scizor. Any thoughts? The situation was compounded by the use of an unorthodox Thunder Wave Jirachi lead which paralyzed my Metagross (I stayed in to get rocks up but should just have switched to Flygon to absorb the T-Wave, in retrospect). Again, any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks, guys!

First off, expecting Lead Jirachi to run TWave is not something you should do.. almost all the LeadRachis are TrickScarf variants, thus you made the right play by setting up Rocks (or you could've EQd for the 2KO). Sub-Magnet Rise zone is kind of gimmicky, but I can understand how it ran through your team. Couldn't you have broken sub with Gyarados Waterfall, death foddered your Gyarados, and then came in and revenge killed with LO Hydro Pump from Starmie? Or used EQ with your Metagross once Magnet Rise wore off...

Don't be too worried, I don't think many people run SubRise Zone, teehee.

Also.. Gyarados can serve as a Machamp counter just fine, you know. Come in on DPunch or Ice Punch, Intimidate, Stone Edge becomes a 2-3KO, DD Up and bounce to death..

 

[maxbarnyard]

Yeah, I don't really expect most lead Jirachi to run anything beyond the standard SR/Trick/U-turn/Iron Head set. That guy knew how to run a gimmick set, lemme tell you, after the panicky start I just kinda freaked and didn't know how to play him for the rest of the match, oh well. I'm looking forward to doing more playtesting now that I put Bounce over Stone Edge on Gyara. Still mulling over the switch from Stone Edge to Thunderpunch on Flygon, we'll see what happens. I like the thought of Stone Edge to take out Zapdos, for sure, but the guaranteed switch-in near-OHKO on Gyarados is nice. Time will tell, I guess.

 

[Myzozoa]

Hi there, this is a fairly basic team strategically:break down gyarados counters and sweep. However, your team is amazingly fucked by almost every standard gen-4 stall team as you have no way of dealing with defensive rotom-a which is present on any stall team of merit (no shit).

This is quite easy to fix though:

tyranitar@lum berry
252 speed/252 attack/ 4 special attack
Hasty
Crunch
Pursuit
Stone edge/super power
Fire Blast/ FLamethrower

With starmie keeping sr off the table, youre free to switch gyarados out with little loss of advantage. Tyranitar can come in on any rotom-a attack and kill it with pursuit and crunch vastly easing a gyarados sweep later. CB tar is also an option over this version.

This would probably be used over either jolteon or flygon, you only need one. I cant say that one is definitively better than the other, but i prefer keeping flygon.

Your team is still an easy win for a full stall team, but youll have any easier time against balance teams at least. Getting lucario on this team would be excellent, as it lures many things that gyarados can set up on, and gyarados counters like defensive suicune dont handle lucario well.

I think you would also benefit my having heatran as your lead over metagross, as heatran lures water pokemon that would threaten a gyarados sweep and then it outspeeds them and explodes to either kill them or else weaken them to the point that they can't deal with gyarados.

 

[jdesai927]

I don't know if you'd considered this while building your team or not, but every single one of your sets are unbelievably predictable and standard. Any experienced player would easily be able to predict virtually every one of your moves, and while the team might look good on paper, I think you'd probably be messed up were you to actually test it competitively for the simple reason that your team has no surprise value. I can't really offer any specific advice, unfortunately, since it's a problem that extends throughout the team. You want to tweak the sets/Pokemon to give you that all-important psychological edge.

 

[y4f]

I don't know if you'd considered this while building your team or not, but every single one of your sets are unbelievably predictable and standard. Any experienced player would easily be able to predict virtually every one of your moves, and while the team might look good on paper, I think you'd probably be messed up were you to actually test it competitively for the simple reason that your team has no surprise value. I can't really offer any specific advice, unfortunately, since it's a problem that extends throughout the team. You want to tweak the sets/Pokemon to give you that all-important psychological edge.

Sorry for spamming your thread max, but I felt the need to address what this guy said.

Surprise factor is something that is undeniably useful in Pokemon. However, it's also something unnecessary in Pokemon. Sure, people might not expect my Specs Borutorosu to OHKO their lead while they incorrectly predict Taunt and try to set up. But any skilled player with a well-built team can play around stuff without surprise factor simply by taking a more defensive, conservative approach. I have had a great deal of success with lots of incredibly standard teams, that look good on paper and on the battlefield. One way to luck at surprise factor is that it's really simply a way for creativity and luck to overpower skilled players who are overly aware of the metagame and predict according to the most popular movesets (which will net you more wins overall). If you trust your team to counter all of the popular offensive threats, and reliably deal with a multitude of defensive threats, while maintaining synergy and efficiency, then surprise factor is simply icing on the cake and won't make-or-break your team.

If you want to have surprise factor though, and take your battling to the next level, experiment with bluffing. Slapping Expert Belt on Choice pokes and dumping extra speed EVs to hit Magic Speed Numbers, or running uncommon "tech'd" Hidden Powers to hit counters (ex. HP Ice on Landlos to hit Gliscor). Like HP Grass on Jolt.

That reminds me, you could try running a 3 Attacks + Roost LO Zapdos in place of Jolteon. More natural bulk, checks Breloom incredibly well, and is generally a boss. Something like this:

Zapdos @ Life Orb / Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid (+Spd, -Atk)
- Thunderbolt
- Heat Wave
- HP Ice (Or Grass for surprise factor)
- Roost

gl. again.

 

[Boondocker]

Bounce doesnt help against machamp. It will just hit you in the air with stone edge because of no guard and then switch out. Your better off using waterfall on it.

As for the team try a sub pass jolteon with lefties. No one expects it and passing a sub to gyra could mean gg.

I'd lead with metagross to kill their sr user and then spin with starmie. But thats up to you im sure you know the pros and cons.

Rotom can go over jolteon since having a ghost is cool. As can tyranitar to pursuit opposing rotom.

Also extend your starmie description or ill have to lock this. Just kidding.

Good luck

 

[maxbarnyard]

The Tyranitar that Myzozoa might be helpful, especially considering that I currently have not a single fire move on the entire team, and that led to a TR Bronzong setting up on my pretty bad earlier. Having another fighting move would be helpful too.

So far I'm finding Flygon to be a bit disappointing, not really helping that much, given that it just doesn't hit hard enough most of the time. Case and point: in the match against the trick room team that housed the aforementioned Bronzong, Flygon's Outrage was just barely too weak to KO a Porygon-2 the defeat of which would have won me the match. What would be a good replacement for Flygon that wouldn't hurt the rest of the team?

Also, if I were to use SubPass Jolteon, what move should be replaced with Baton Pass? Lefties may also just be generally useful, as I'm finding that, though Life Orb's power boost is a godsend, Jolteon just ends up killing himself with recoil. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Also, Boondocker, I see what you did there haha.

 

[Boondocker]

The Tyranitar that Myzozoa might be helpful, especially considering that I currently have not a single fire move on the entire team, and that led to a TR Bronzong setting up on my pretty bad earlier. Having another fighting move would be helpful too.

So far I'm finding Flygon to be a bit disappointing, not really helping that much, given that it just doesn't hit hard enough most of the time. Case and point: in the match against the trick room team that housed the aforementioned Bronzong, Flygon's Outrage was just barely too weak to KO a Porygon-2 the defeat of which would have won me the match. What would be a good replacement for Flygon that wouldn't hurt the rest of the team?

Also, if I were to use SubPass Jolteon, what move should be replaced with Baton Pass? Lefties may also just be generally useful, as I'm finding that, though Life Orb's power boost is a godsend, Jolteon just ends up killing himself with recoil. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Also, Boondocker, I see what you did there haha.

Replace shadow ball on jolteon.

Not much can replace flygon to be honest. You dont need a scarfer there but without 1 you get swept by jolly dd gyrados. You really cant afford to use another water type here either...rotom and jolteon dont go great together. Maybe a dusknoir? Not sure witch set i like but thundepunch should be on it.

 

[jdesai927]

Y4f, I agree with what you're saying, but at the same time, it kind of defeats the purpose of an RMT if you're using a standard team with standard sets. You really want people to rate your new, interesting team on which you have some cool or interesting gimmicks that you thought of on your own or use in unorthodox situations.

Without it, if you're playing someone else with an equally standard team, the game becomes less strategy- and more team matchup-oriented. Which sort of kills the spirit of competitive Pokemon. And I think a good anti-metagame gimmick is more effective than a standard set, which is evidenced by the fact that, in some cases, these gimmicks have become accepted standards, like Lead Machamp. If you're going to stay with the metagame, you have far less of an advantage than someone who's ahead of it, while also being able to deal with the common threats.

 

[maxbarnyard]

@jdesai927: I agree that my team isn't unpredictable in terms of movesets. I was trying to stick with what works and, generally, these movesets seemed to go with each other nicely, at least on paper. I'm still not the most experienced competitive player so I don't know if I could play an unorthodox set well enough to warrant its use, but I'd love any specific suggestions you might have for me in terms of changes.

 

[maxbarnyard]

Also, I'm finding that this team is a bit on the frail side, so if there are any ideas for how to make this team into more of a bulky offense team, they would be greatly appreciated. I'm still interested in the idea of hyper-offense as well, so they can both be on the table.