Lower Tiers PU Viability Rankings

[ShuckleDeath]

I don't think I've ever played a PU ladder match in my entire life, however I've played in tournaments a little bit and I just wanted to voice my opinion on a few things.

From my personal experience of playing with and against Muk, I think it's better than A-. SpD Muk, which is far and away the best set in my opinion, boasts incredible special bulk that somehow allows it to turn some of the most threatening and difficult Pokemon to switch into into setup fodder. Passive recovery is always instrumental on a slow setup sweeper, and the fact that Muk has Sticky Hold which not only prevents its Black Sludge from being Knocked Off, but also from being swapped via Trick/Switcheroo is absolutely invaluable. In general the fact that Muk is a slow setup Pokemon that isn't crippled by being Tricked a Choice item is incredible. Muk's attacking option, Poison Jab also happens to a surprisingly useful attack that has utility outside of immediate sweeping. In a similar manner to Scald, Poison Jab has a 30% chance for a status effect (in this case Poison) which makes it a decently spammable move in the early game as you can use it to cripple common switchins such as Golem, Stunfisk, Gourgeist-XL, Vullaby, and Relicanth which will slowly wear them down over time, often making it easier for Muk to sweep in the late game. Muk is also a Pokemon that must be considered when teambuilding, with players being forced to make sure they have reliable methods of counterplay for it unless they want to end up like my last PU Open opponent. Pokemon that are threatening not only in practice, but also in the builder are always rated highly since they are ultimately the Pokemon that define how the teams in the tier are constructed, therefore influencing the tier as a whole. I'd like to see Muk to rise, and low to mid A seems like a fair assessment in my opinion.

Calcs

252 SpA Life Orb Floatzel Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Muk: 126-149 (30.4 - 35.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Cacturne Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Muk: 122-146 (29.4 - 35.2%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Regice Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Muk: 126-149 (30.4 - 35.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Golem to the top of A+ alongside Monferno is another thing I've wanted to see for a little while. I have most experience using Choice Band Golem, a savagely underrated set, however, standard sets like Weakness Policy, SpD Tank, and Custap are all still viable and are excellent when used correctly. Golem is by far the most consistent Stealth Rock user in the entire tier, and just also happens to function as a great check to two of the more threatening types in the tier in Electric and Normal. Its reliability and utility as a Stealth Rock user when combined with its aforementioned ability to reliably check a large variety of common threats to balance and bulky offense makes Golem one of the easiest Pokemon to splash onto almost any archetype, and where it's currently sitting just seems slightly too low for just how important it is. I could show replay after replay of Choice Band Golem just rolling through teams, but Golem is already an A+ ranked Pokemon, so you should already know how good it is, I'm only nomming it to rise a few slots at most, but I think its a fair assessment of Golem's value and impact on the metagame

I'm kinda piggybacking off of an already started discussion with this nom, but a Vibrava rise seems like the right thing to do. Vibrava is far superior to Avalugg, the other hazard removal currently sitting alongside Vibrava in the C+ rank, and has experienced a recent spike in popularity thanks to its newly found Physically Defensive set which allows it to better handle metagame staples such as Monferno and Golem more reliably. Vibrava is becoming an easier Pokemon to fit on many balanced and bulky offensive archetypes that require a Ground, Fire, and Rock resist due to the fact that it compresses a decent number of defensive roles into a single slot, whilst also providing hazard removal, and having U-turn so that it doesn't lose momentum, allowing it to support common breakers such as Choice Band Dodrio or Cacturne relatively effectively.

I'd like to elaborate on the monster that is Muk. I also would like to see a rise, and not just for the SpDef set, which is very very good if supported properly, but also because it is much more versitile than that. When Muk first droped i was ver sceptical of a Choice Band set, until I tried it myself and for anyone who has used it or faced it know that it is also a very good set.

Muk @ Choice Band
Ability: Poison Touch
EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 132 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Fire Punch
- Ice Punch
- Shadow Sneak
I like 132 speed to outpace Pelipper

Having very few switch-ins and still checks grass types and Clefairy rather well, this set acts as a monstrous wallbreaking and blanket check to many common special attackers. Gunk Shot desolates anything that dosesn't resist it and has coverage for most of the things that do. Fire Punch hit's steel types wanting to come in like Mawile(avoids the 2HKO if defensive but doesn't do much back), Metang(clean 2hko), and Pawniard. Brick Break grants the guarantee on Pawniard and hits Relicanth harder. Ice Punch hit's Golem and other ground types like Gabite, and then it has Shadow Sneak to pick off weakened threats. Just a very effective Pokemon right now, which is only further boosted by the fact that many people will try to switch in there Muk check not wanting it to set up, only to get bopped by coverage. Assault Vest is a set that has been considered but is rather rare as it's other sets are so good, that being said it still can be good to check special attackers better while being able to support its teammates rather than needing the support for its self. The downside to this is it has to sacrifice pretty much all physical bulk as it needs to invest heavily into SpDef to be as efficient as possible.

Band Calcs

Muk Attacking

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Muk Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 124-148 (40.7 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Muk Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Metang: 156-184 (48.1 - 56.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Muk Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 201-237 (62.2 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Muk Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 160-190 (46.6 - 55.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Muk Brick Break vs. 248 HP / 16+ Def Golem: 166-196 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Muk Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 206-244 (89.1 - 105.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


Muk Defending

0 Atk Mawile Iron Head vs. 128 HP / 0 Def Muk: 96-114 (25 - 29.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Mr. Mime Psychic vs. 128 HP / 0 SpD Muk: 320-377 (83.5 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(~70% after Rocks)

Just a really solid versatile Mon, that I absolutely support in rising.

 

[Conor3197]

Ok so now to hear my opinion on noms.

Firstly Lapras to A-, I 100% agree. I supported a nom for it to B+ earlier and in that nom I already said it had potential for A-. This mon is just so hard to prepare for with such little counters that it should be A-. This mon can even run a physical d-dance set and has access to priority with ice shard if needed, what's not to like! Nothing in the tier wants to switch into a Hydro Pump and everything that does want to switch in, doesn't want to risk taking a Freeze Dry.

Trapinch - B, this is neutral for me. I am leaning towards the agreement side because this mon can trap alot of threats in the tier, such as almost every electric type, grumpig and a few steel types too. This can come in so handy when you are battling. The only reason I am in a bit of doubt is because my experiences of using Trapinch, in battle, didnt go so well.

Muk rising, you have my support too. Muk is an awesome physical attacker. It has great bulk and a nice move pool too with getting access to shadow Sneak, gunk Shot, elemental punches, curse, aswell as other moves.

Golem to top of A+, I kinda disagree with this nom. I am neutral with it being above Mr.Mime, however Leafeon serves a better purpose then golem in my opinion. I know the golem suicide leads are absolutely amazing but Leafeon has access to such a good move pool with leaf blade (solid stab), synthesis, swords dance, knock off, xscissor, aerial ace and quick attack. Aerial ace makes it perfect for luring in monferno and it it can even use bullet seed to break sturdies / sashes / subs making it slightly better then golem is.

Vibrava to C+, I slightly disagree with this. Vibrava can't really do much on the affensive side. It gets walled by any flying type or any mon with levitate and it even gives some mons, such as rotom frost free subs. It's access to uturn is extremely nice, but I feel I would rather use Vullaby if I wanted a defogger pivot.

NOW FOR MY NOMS:

Weepinbell to C-, sun in this meta is on the decline, and without sun Weepinbell is outclassed by lo roselia. I do not think Weepinbell should completely drop though cause it's niches is still here.

Leavanny to top of B-, After smeargle dropped Leavanny has gotten a bit worse as a webs setter. It is still a good Web setter due to its affensive presence, which smeargle is lacking, however this isn't enough to explain it being B rank in my opinion. It is also a nice lead against most sr setters, but not all sr setters are weak to Leavanny, eg. Camerupt, Armaldo. I understand too that it is faster than smeargle is but most of the time that won't matter. In general, I think it's niche is only worthy of B- rank but not any lower.

 

[Anty]

Update Time!! (s/o to megazard for going through all the posts)

Zebstrika A to A+
Raichu A- to B+
Muk A- to A
Leavanny B to B-
Vibrava C+ to B-
Weepinbell C to C-
Ampharos C- to C+
The rank order in A+ and A has also changed

Discussion List:
Stoutland A+ to S
Monferno A+ to S
Rapidash A- to A
Electrode A- to A
Quilladin A- to B+

If you need more in depth reasoning feel free to ask. For the record, Lapras didn't move up as though it is a strong wallbreaker, it struggles to switch in as most of the top tiered Pokemon have a positive match up (if any of the VR team want to give a more in depth reason for this and any other changes please do).

 

[HoennZach]

Stoutland to S rank: I'm in favor of this. Stoutland may only have 1 set that sees any usage, but it has nice bulk, and it hits things like a truck. Thanks to its coverage, and scrappy, its extremely hard to switch into and it can run Facade to get around wilo.
Monferno to S rank: Im gonna have to disagree with this one. Yes Monferno is an AMAZING mon, but I feel like it has enough checks to keep it out of S rank, especially with Muk and Peli in the tier. Monferno can deal with Peli, but not without giving up one of its valuable moveslots for thunderpunch when it wants to run dual stab, priority and either setup or u-turn.

 

[GeneralAnnoyance]

I'd like to jump on a couple of the discussion points Anty has made above. To begin, I think it's important to address metagame trends when moving mons around on viability. Right now I'm finding that golem is the best rocker for offense/some balanced playstyles and that will have a lot to do with some of my upcoming points. Being so popular and useful, Golem influences common builds i've been seeing and I think it directly correlates to my opinion on the Stoutland/Monferno conundrum.

Both Stout/Monf occupy the same speed tier and while they both can fit on a team, it's often wise to choose one or the other (unless you're running sand) to promote diversity of speed tiers among mons on your team. Monferno faces problems with the ever so passive and less viable rocker, Stunfisk, that can be easily accounted for with use of a fat grass or rotom-frost. Stoutland finds problems with spamming its normal stab as golem can find more opportunities to switch in and can pose mores problems (depending on your opponents build) if you are able to correctly switch in. This makes running stoutland a little more problematic than in past metas where Golem wasn't at the peak of its viability as it is now. This is a little insight into how I see the meta. Obviously you can use other rockers (or click superpower) but that puts you into increasingly difficult situations with abusing volt/turn and compensating for not having an electric immunity as well as worrying about setting up on a proposed post-superpower stoutland when accounting for the predicted golem switch.

This leads me into the other main point I was to address, Cacturne. It's really good. It has a lot of sweeping potential late game but if you have a decent build you should have multiple checks implemented for it. Monferno can switch into a lot of its sets and it resists both STABs so that only increased monferno's viability in the late ORAS meta. As you may be thinking now, this indirectly has effected stoutland's ability to come in and get kills because as long as monferno is alive, it's limited to one revenge per switch in. Cacturne also introduces yet another Sucker punch user that can prevent a stoutland sweep but this is more of a side note as you gamble with if they'll predict your switch.

Lastly, in order to address all of the changes relevant to the "new" drops, it's pretty important to note Muk and Pelipper. With Muk, we have a fighting resist with enough bulk and strength to abuse the CC's drops on monferno. However, the downfall is that a non-defense invested Muk takes a whole hell of a lot from flare blitz and it has a decent chance to get 2HKO'd if you predicted wrong. With Pelipper, we have a passive pivot that resists both of monferno's STABs. You'd think that this would be a huge negative for monferno but I don't believe it's as crucial to Monferno's viability for a couple reasons. One is that Monf has access to u-turn and with pelipper being so passive, having a SR weakness, and a x4 electric weakness it's pretty easy to lure it in and take SR, force it out with something else, or set up on it with various Sub mons like bouff/rotom-frost. I've been finding that recently I'm leaning more towards lumineon as a monferno/water check because of the water immunity, the x2 weakness to electric (thereby still being able to pivot on Special float), and only taking 12% from Stealth rocks rather than 25%. So with this I think that in a decent amount of cases using Lumi over Pelipper is actually the better way to go for some teams. Another important point that I'd like to note is that Pelipper doesn't have have enough speed to outspeed and u-turn on Cacturne, so you're losing out on a potential purpose that Peli cant serve for your team that Lumineon can.

Overall, I think that Stoutland has maintained its viability in A+ but it now serves a different purpose than it has in past metas by only being able to revenge one at a time and having to deal with its STAB resisted by the ever so common Golem. Monferno benefited from the drops by now being used to check even more terrifying mons and the metagame trends have benefited by increasing the viability of Golem and decreasing the viability of Pelipper. With this I believe that Monferno has enough merit for the S rank raise.

 

[LordST]

Stoutland for S rank: I'm definitely opposed to this change. I'm gonna piggy back a little on what GA said, but I'll add a few points of my own. Stoutland faces more problems then it did pre-drops. Most often Stoutland's biggest issue is having to play around Defensive Mawile, a mon that Stoutland has a hard time even denting. The presence of a Mawile forces a player to either make a risky double or attack and give Mawile free momentum/rocks. In addition to this, Monferno usage has skyrocketed ever since Cacturne entered the tier, as shown by the PU Open stats where it peaked at 40% usage. Monferno can very easily revenge kill Stoutland or gain momentum with Uturn and this can put you in bad situations late game. I think these two points are reason enough to keep Stoutland in A+.

 

[pancake]

I'm with GeneralAnnoyance and Lord Sample Team (s/o LST for convincing me he will post in matchmaking 8)) n this one. Monferno deserves S-rank; Stoutland does not and it's really not a question of power alone here; it is a question of splashability.

There is no question that Stoutland is a powerful Pokemon in whatever meta. However, it requires more team support to be effective as opposed to Monferno. Monferno is by far the most splashable mon in this meta, I find it putting it on like all of my offensive teams (which is like all of them). Its offensive typing is amazing, and it can break a lot of common defensive mons in this meta, see: Mawile, Golem. The fact that it has such powerful priority, access to both U-turn AND Swords Dance, respectable bulk, and ability to check common metagame threats such as Cacturne and Leafeon means it is just such a good mon in this metagame. With the team support it requires, Stoutland just does not get to the same level.

 

[Teddeh]

Okay gonna post my 2 cents so you guys can see it from my pov and how i see the changes -
Stoutland right now has 0 reliable switch ins with a very offensive meta - it can dismantle teams very easily and it gets so many opportunities to switch in during a match and forces so many pokemon out by its amazing bulk that it can literally guarantee you 1 kill during the match with slight prediction between superpower and frustration. With that being said - if you face a stoutland and you don't carry a normal resist - you basically have to sack something every time it gets a free switch. It is that good at doing its job that it simply is the best wall breaker in the tier and for me it's very splashable for this reason. It needs no support - has an option for pursuit / facade so you're always cautious about burning it and with the lack of fighting types / good normal resists in PU - it's the go-to pokemon if you want an easy af wall breaker to use. Just by how splashable stoutland is and how good it is at breaking down teams - I would move stoutland to S rank. Similar to how sawk worked in NU a few metas ago, it's just that good right now.

Monferno has been a staple on teams right now ever since cacturne dropped. It's insane versatility, boosting options and set diversity make it a favorite to use in the team builder and with the removal of machoke and the addition of cacturne - it's hard not to put monferno onto teams when it checks so many things and carries an offensive presence. As it checks ice types like rotom-f, regice and then also grass types like cacturne - it checks some of the best pokemon in the tier whilst having diversity to its nature to allow you to use it even if you may not want a sweeper as it has options of wisp / slack off / heck even nasty plot and specs sets come around from time to time to keep people on their toes. There's a massive difference between monferno's splashability and the other A+ rank mons that i would personally like to see it also moved to S rank.

I feel both pokemon deserve S as they stand out far above the rest of the A+ group and I feel that subjectively they are also on par and perhaps better than some S rank mons too. To not have them in a separate part to the rest of the A+ group would be pretty wrong imo.

tl;dr - i support both nominations to S rank

 

[HappyHoopa05]

Monferno A+ -> S Agree: This little monkey definitely deserves it. He is viable in most teams, is versatile, can performance multiple roles very effectively and definitely shaped this metagame since the beginning of its usage, being today the top 1 in usage.

Stoutland A+ -> S Agree: This mon is amazing, arguably the best physical sweeper in the meta, he is able to perfomance two main rolls: Attacker, with the Choice Band set and Sweeper with the Sand Set. The banded set makes this Doggy too strong, at the point of making a few things to be considered solid checkers. With the LO Sand Rush set, his late game cleaning capabilitiesare 10/10. Having the little support of a single sand setter like hippopotas is enough to guarantee that the opposite team will have a hard time.

 

[Acast]

A few nominations:

Lumineon: B -> B+

Lumineon is one of the more reliable defoggers in PU atm and a very solid water check. Also, contrary to what you might think, it actually got better with the introduction of Cacturne because U-turn makes it a soft check. I've tweaked the standard Lumi set on my own teams to allow it to function better as a Cacturne check. 48 Spe EVs allow it to outspeed any Cacturne spread, even those with speed boosting natures. And using Impish instead of Bold gives Lumi a chance to OHKO Cacturne after SR or one round of LO recoil. Unfortunately Scald won't hit as hard, but I think it might be worth it for teams that are particularly weak to Cac. Overall, Lumineon is just too relevant right now to be lumped in with things like Mightyena, Purugly, and Solrock.

Lumineon @ Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 252 HP / 208 Def / 48 Spe
Impish Nature
- Defog
- Scald
- U-turn
- Toxic

Impish Lumineon:
0 Atk Lumineon U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cacturne: 224-268 (79.7 - 95.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Bold Lumineon:
0- Atk Lumineon U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cacturne: 204-240 (72.5 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


I noticed the B+ subrank is looking a little bloated so the following nominations are intended to clean it up a little, although they might be controversial.

Altaria: B+ -> B

Altaria is just incredibly underwhelming as an offensive pokemon. Base 70 offensive stats simply don't hit hard enough to make it worthwhile in my experience, even after a DD boost. I'm not as familiar with its defensive sets, but I'm sure the prominence of Ice moves in this metagame from things like Floatzel, Rotom-F, Lapras, and all the random HP Ice coverage makes it difficult to use. If I'm wrong about that, please let me know. I admit it's probably a good Monferno check, but I still find it difficult to justify Altaria staying in B+ since there are plenty of other checks that are more highly ranked.

Rotom-S: B+ -> B

This nomination is mainly because Rotom-S is so outclassed by its refrigerator form. The only reason I would use it over Rotom-F is if the rest of the team is weak to Monferno.

I completely admit the last two could be controversial, but out of all the Pokemon in B+ I think those two are the least worthy of the rank.

 

[Slowbroth]

Lumineon to B+ (Agree)

Incredibly splashable mon for balance due to its incredible role compression and lack of hazard weakness meaning it can defog more comfortably than Pelipper. Without repeating too much of what Acast said, Lumineon can check the top tier meta threats Floatzel AND Cacturne better than Pelipper can, and acts as an effective disrupter and pivot by spreading status and U-Turning when it has a disadvantageous situation. Pelipper, while it has reliable recovery, is forced to recover more often just to stay healthy and can lose a lot of offensive momentum, while Lumineon does not share this same trait at the expense of only having shortened survivability. Lumineon also acts as a decent antilead to Golem, by Toxic-ing turn 1 to prevent a potential weakness policy from activating and can threaten Golem out with super effective Scald. Definitely a solid mon and glue for a lot of teams right now, and fits on more teams than Peli does imho.

Altaria to B (Agree)

Altaria certainly has a decent niche in PU with its ability to check Monferno, Leafeon, and a few others using its natural bulk, as well as sporting reliable recovery for longevity. Unfortunately, Altaria is either incredibly passive or criminally underwhelming in terms of raw power. It competes with role compression as a flying type on certain teams, since many teams will want their flying type such as Swanna or Vullaby to be not only a Monferno answer but also a defogger, and as you know Altaria CANNOT defog. Physical set up sets need at least 2 DDs to be remotely threatening vs bulky offense teams, and vs offensive teams, it's rare that alt will have 2 turns to set up; 1 DD is often not enough as scarfers such as Mime or Rotom-Frost can simply revenge it. Specially offensive sets are decent, but not a B+ level worthy set. Altaria fits on stall as well, but stall is quite mediocre right now, so yeah.

Rotom-S to B (Disagree)

If you posted this 3 weeks ago when I didn't use Rotom-S extensively at all, I would've agreed here. But having used it and giving it the proper support on teams, it doesn't disappoint at all. Rotom-S uses its defensive typing to check things that Altaria would as well, but better and more effectively: such as Monferno, Leafeon, but also Dodrio, Pawniard, etc. Rotom-S is no slouch in terms of offensive presence as opposed to altaria and its nice speed tier allows it to effectively Volt Switch pivot out on some slower threats in PU such as Lapras, Stoutland, Grumpig and Monferno and get off a sizable chunk of damage while preserving its health. What you said about Rotom-S being outclassed by Rotom-F is entirely untrue, as they perform different roles - sure 1v1 rotom-f beats rotom-s, but that's not the point here obviously. And for people that think Golem or Camerupt or even Stunfisk is a good enough rotom-s check, standard rotom-s with hp water renders that argument invalid (point here being rotom-s actually fares decently against many grounds).

Monferno to S (Agree)

Ferno has certainly risen to the top of the PU metagame when it comes to splashability and neccessity, situating itself as a meta defining mon. I don't really want to repeat exactly what Teddeh, GA and others have already said, so I'll just reiterate that its incredible versatility, speed, typing, decent bulk and ability to revenge things well make it a presence that everyone has to prepare for and a mon that everyone should consider using on their team. As a comment I do think U-turn monferno is the better set at the moment, being able to gain initiative whenever it comes in on Cacturne, or the opponent has a counter such as Stunfisk in the back, allowing for offensive momentum. anyways, the meta has definitely been in ferno's favor recently and thus should rise to S.

 

[Rennyjesus]

Hey guys! About the principal noms in this slate I would like to note that actually the whole Viability Rankings are kinda bloated... The real reason of why Ferno and Stout both are better than its A+ friends is just that the rest of A+ are actually pretty much overrated... IMO there are a LOT of things that are in higher ranks than they truly deserve...

A+ Rank IMO should only consist of 4 pokés: Floatzel, Stoutland, Monferno and Leafeon... Those 4 are in the level of being real threats for any playstyle and that need to be truly prepared for on team building! I can't say the same about Mr. Mime, Zebstrika and Grumpig...

Don't get me wrong, all of those are still huge threats but A rank is more representative for all of them... Then a LOT of things should drop also to make things even for every poke! A lot of things on B rank as a whole are pretty much niche and actually on the verge of being lame on PU meta. That makes new player to think that B+ pokemon could really have a huge impact and the real thing is that they are almost unused!

Then, almost the whole bunch of C rank pokes are pretty bad choices for any serious team... So, please dear council, could you consider a revamp on Rankings before doing any other move please?

If that's not possible, well... I guess I would have to concede that Stout and Ferno might have enough merit to be S... See ya!

 

[Terrakion.]

Hey guys! About the principal noms in this slate I would like to note that actually the whole Viability Rankings are kinda bloated... The real reason of why Ferno and Stout both are better than its A+ friends is just that the rest of A+ are actually pretty much overrated... IMO there are a LOT of things that are in higher ranks than they truly deserve...

A+ Rank IMO should only consist of 4 pokés: Floatzel, Stoutland, Monferno and Leafeon... Those 4 are in the level of being real threats for any playstyle and that need to be truly prepared for on team building! I can't say the same about Mr. Mime, Zebstrika and Grumpig...

Don't get me wrong, all of those are still huge threats but A rank is more representative for all of them... Then a LOT of things should drop also to make things even for every poke! A lot of things on B rank as a whole are pretty much niche and actually on the verge of being lame on PU meta. That makes new player to think that B+ pokemon could really have a huge impact and the real thing is that they are almost unused!

Then, almost the whole bunch of C rank pokes are pretty bad choices for any serious team... So, please dear council, could you consider a revamp on Rankings before doing any other move please?

If that's not possible, well... I guess I would have to concede that Stout and Ferno might have enough merit to be S... See ya!

The part about Mr. Mime Zebstrika and Grumpig got under my skin a little bit. Still gonna make this relatively short cause everything said most likely have been said earlier in the thread some time ago etc.

Mr. Mime is still one of the better Pokemon in the tier. It gets two great abilities while also being able to run quite a few sets for offensive teams. Nasty Plot Mr. Mime (idk about you but imo) is pretty damn good at the moment. That set alone makes Mr.Mime as threatening as other Pokemon in the tier. Then it can still run other sets such as Choice Scarf. Zebstrika is the least of my concern regarding the three Pokemon since I don't use it often but I think its still one of the more splashable Pokemon in the tier for offensive teams similar reasons that Mr.Mime has. Their abilities completely change the way your opponent has to play, on top of their good coverage they get. Zebstrika is also dumb fast, outspeeding one of the top tier threats in Floatzel. Lastly with Grumpig, it's so good right now. I don't see how you can merit a drop for it. Its one of the best Offensive Utility Pokemon in the tier while still being to manage on its own. It checks a ton of top tier threats and can run a variety of sets / items ranging from Utility to SubCM holding Leftovers to Colbur.

Sure a lot of the Pokemon may be a little high than they should but I think those three are fine where they are. (definitely Mr.Mime / Grumpig- couldn't care less for Zebra)

 

[pancake]

Hey guys! About the principal noms in this slate I would like to note that actually the whole Viability Rankings are kinda bloated... The real reason of why Ferno and Stout both are better than its A+ friends is just that the rest of A+ are actually pretty much overrated... IMO there are a LOT of things that are in higher ranks than they truly deserve...

A+ Rank IMO should only consist of 4 pokés: Floatzel, Stoutland, Monferno and Leafeon... Those 4 are in the level of being real threats for any playstyle and that need to be truly prepared for on team building! I can't say the same about Mr. Mime, Zebstrika and Grumpig...

Don't get me wrong, all of those are still huge threats but A rank is more representative for all of them... Then a LOT of things should drop also to make things even for every poke! A lot of things on B rank as a whole are pretty much niche and actually on the verge of being lame on PU meta. That makes new player to think that B+ pokemon could really have a huge impact and the real thing is that they are almost unused!

Then, almost the whole bunch of C rank pokes are pretty bad choices for any serious team... So, please dear council, could you consider a revamp on Rankings before doing any other move please?

If that's not possible, well... I guess I would have to concede that Stout and Ferno might have enough merit to be S... See ya!

I disagree. I think you are assuming that just because there is a possibility for there to be 4 or 5 mons in the S-rank tier and this hasn't really happened in the near past that we are overrating all of these mons. This is not true imo.

The GOAL if the viability rankings is to make them not subjective. As a result, look at the definitions for S-ranks on other viabilty rankings. For some reason, they are not on the PU one ;3

For example, here's the NU one

Pokemon in this rank fill all of the main criteria and then some with a strong proficiency in one or more of the positive traits. If a Pokemon in this rank has any downsides, they are usually tame or eclipsed by their obvious assets.

The question should not be "are we overrating these mons?" it should be "which mons fit this criteria?" and in this case, people do disagree of whether or not Monferno or Stoutland fit this criteria, but it really is the question that we are asking that should matter

 

[Acast]

If anything, having a handful of mons at the top of the VR is a sign of a balanced metagame. It means we're not centralized around 1 or 2 main threats that shape the metagame around them, like what happened in the Machoke meta. Instead, we have 4 or 5 that all share equal viability, but are not too overwhelming on their own.

If Monferno moves up, I think S and A+ are both perfectly representative of the PU metagame as it is now. (Side note: I'm not a fan of Stoutland moving up simply because it's not as splashable as Monferno, Floatzel, or Rotom-F.) I admit there are a few pokemon in A that I think should drop a subrank (Roselia, Chatot, and Jumpluff) but they were either already nominated and rejected or I don't have enough knowledge about them to make a formal nom.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that PU is in a really good place right now. The fact that the higher ranks in our VR are relatively diverse is evidence of the progress that's been made within this tier. I'm very happy with where we're at.

 

[false]

I can't really comment on Electrode, Rapidash, or Quilladin, I really haven't played against or used them much at all recently. I'll just comment on the stuff I've had some experience with.

Yeah this thing is stupidly good right now. With Stealth Rock up, Stoutland switchins comprise of:

1. Guessing correctly
2. Having a Defensive Tangela

Stoutland requires no support and no setup, and in a metagame right now where bulky offense reigns supreme, finding reliable counterplay for Stoutland is not an easy task, and is often something that will force you to take multiple slots to do so. The only other Pokemon that can boast this control of the tier just in the teambuilder alone is Floatzel, which obviously sits in the S-Rank. This insane wallbreaking prowess is only further backed up by pretty insane 85 / 90 / 90 bulk which seems unfair for such a dominating offensive Pokemon. What you end up with is something that, as a standalone Pokemon that requires no support at all, threatens every single style, has the power to break through almost anything, and the bulk to trade vs anything that isn't faster, and hitting it super effectively. Yeah this thing has to rise.

I'm honestly far less sold on this moving up than a lot of other people are, I'm probably slightly leaning towards stay, however, I can see both sides of the coin and I can't say a rise is completely unfair. Whilst Monferno is probably the most easily splashable Pokemon for bulky offense teams right now, I'm not sure splashability and utility necessarily equates to viability, and I feel like Pokemon such as Rotom-F, Cacturne, Floatzel, and even Stoutland have more of an impact on the metagame than Monferno does. Monferno is definitely a staple of the metagame, and a Pokemon that commands you recognise its gravity as a threat when building, but Monferno just isn't as valuable as other S-Ranked Pokemon are when it comes to practice as far as I'm concerned. Monferno's bulk isn't that great, and will find itself worn down just trying to do its job checking the limited number of Pokmon its tasked to. Also, its STABs have pretty underwhelming power, and it seems to rely mostly on the utility of U-turn or Swords Dance, being frustratingly weak without Swords Dance, and being forced out at the cost of momentum a bit too much due to its weakness to common typings such as Ground and Water if it lacks U-turn. Honestly this was worded pretty badly, all I'm trying to say is that I don't think Monferno is quite as impactful as all the other Pokemon in the S-Rank, and I'd be ok for it to stay where it is, although I can see the points for a rise and I wouldn't be heavily opposed if it were to happen.

--------------------

I also have a few nominations which I wanted to bring up.

In my opinion a rise for this is honestly way overdue. When Chinchou first became relevant, it was no more than a neat little tech that had an Electric immunity, and remedied its low base SpA by utilising 2 of the best attacks in the game, Scald and Volt Switch. However, over recent times Chinchou has turned into a completely legitimate defensive Pokemon that warrants consideration on a large number of balanced or defensive builds. The recent increase in the popularity of Electric types, alongside the continued popularity of Pokemon such as Floatzel, Rotom-F, and Swanna only strengthen Chinchou's viability as a defensive Pokemon. Chinchou's usage almost tripled (6% ->16%) from Round 1 to Round 4 of the PU Open. It was 10th in overall usage with a solid 53% win rate, numbers that both exceeded a large number of A+ ranked Pokemon. If seeing Chinchou's usage and win % in a competitive setting topping the likes of Zebstrika, Grumpig, and Mr. Mime isn't enough to convince you that Chinchou should rise, then I don't know how else I could convince you. Chinchou is a much better, and far more influential defensive Pokemon than any of the other Pokemon in the B- such as Klang, and as such I think a rise is warranted.

I'll try to keep this one short because I really don't have a lot to say. Basically, I've talked with a few people such as RawMelon about Simipour, and the general opinion I'm seeming to be hearing is one similar to mine, Simipour just isn't that good right now. Unfortunately, Floatzel seems to generally outclass AoA Simipour for the most part, and Simipour's viability as a breaker seems to have taken a hit as a product of the recent popularity of offensive Electrics, Chinchou, and recent drops such as Pelipper and Cacturne. Simipour is good for a drop now in my opinion, not to mention that I believe Simisage is the best Simi right now, and seeing Simipour above it just seems weird.

This nomination somewhat piggybacks off of my Muk nomination for a rise last week. Probopass is a borderline mandatory partner for Curse Muk, which in itself is a decent point in favour of a rise. However, Probopass doesn't solely benefit from Muk's increased popularity alone, Probopass has also benefitted off of some recent metagame trends such as the increase in the popularity of Pokemon such as Dodrio, Mawile, as well as, ironically, Muk. Probopass is a pretty decent Normal check, that also doubles as a reliable Stealth Rock user, and a means to trap Steel-types such as Mawile, Pawniard, Metang, or even opposing Probopass. Role compression like this is something that has great value on a large number of balanced and bulky offense archetypes, especially those that also utilise Muk. Probopass just seems to be a very viable Pokemon in the current metagame that finds itself being a bit more viable, and likely to be picked due to common team archetypes that are popular right now, such as Probopass + Muk bulky offense/balance, or even just Normal spam + Probopass.

One other really cool thing about Probopass is the fact that if a Pokemon such as Stoutland wishes to knock out Probopass, they are forced to lock themselves into Superpower, which in turn gives free setup to Muk. Just another point to add to the list of reasons as to why Probopass and Muk were made for each other.

 

[Aaronboyer]

I can't really comment on Electrode, Rapidash, or Quilladin, I really haven't played against or used them much at all recently. I'll just comment on the stuff I've had some experience with.

Yeah this thing is stupidly good right now. With Stealth Rock up, Stoutland switchins comprise of:

1. Guessing correctly
2. Having a Defensive Tangela

Stoutland requires no support and no setup, and in a metagame right now where bulky offense reigns supreme, finding reliable counterplay for Stoutland is not an easy task, and is often something that will force you to take multiple slots to do so. The only other Pokemon that can boast this control of the tier just in the teambuilder alone is Floatzel, which obviously sits in the S-Rank. This insane wallbreaking prowess is only further backed up by pretty insane 85 / 90 / 90 bulk which seems unfair for such a dominating offensive Pokemon. What you end up with is something that, as a standalone Pokemon that requires no support at all, threatens every single style, has the power to break through almost anything, and the bulk to trade vs anything that isn't faster, and hitting it super effectively. Yeah this thing has to rise.

I'm honestly far less sold on this moving up than a lot of other people are, I'm probably slightly leaning towards stay, however, I can see both sides of the coin and I can't say a rise is completely unfair. Whilst Monferno is probably the most easily splashable Pokemon for bulky offense teams right now, I'm not sure splashability and utility necessarily equates to viability, and I feel like Pokemon such as Rotom-F, Cacturne, Floatzel, and even Stoutland have more of an impact on the metagame than Monferno does. Monferno is definitely a staple of the metagame, and a Pokemon that commands you recognise its gravity as a threat when building, but Monferno just isn't as valuable as other S-Ranked Pokemon are when it comes to practice as far as I'm concerned. Monferno's bulk isn't that great, and will find itself worn down just trying to do its job checking the limited number of Pokmon its tasked to. Also, its STABs have pretty underwhelming power, and it seems to rely mostly on the utility of U-turn or Swords Dance, being frustratingly weak without Swords Dance, and being forced out at the cost of momentum a bit too much due to its weakness to common typings such as Ground and Water if it lacks U-turn. Honestly this was worded pretty badly, all I'm trying to say is that I don't think Monferno is quite as impactful as all the other Pokemon in the S-Rank, and I'd be ok for it to stay where it is, although I can see the points for a rise and I wouldn't be heavily opposed if it were to happen.

--------------------

I also have a few nominations which I wanted to bring up.

In my opinion a rise for this is honestly way overdue. When Chinchou first became relevant, it was no more than a neat little tech that had an Electric immunity, and remedied its low base SpA by utilising 2 of the best attacks in the game, Scald and Volt Switch. However, over recent times Chinchou has turned into a completely legitimate defensive Pokemon that warrants consideration on a large number of balanced or defensive builds. The recent increase in the popularity of Electric types, alongside the continued popularity of Pokemon such as Floatzel, Rotom-F, and Swanna only strengthen Chinchou's viability as a defensive Pokemon. Chinchou's usage almost tripled (6% ->16%) from Round 1 to Round 4 of the PU Open. It was 10th in overall usage with a solid 53% win rate, numbers that both exceeded a large number of A+ ranked Pokemon. If seeing Chinchou's usage and win % in a competitive setting topping the likes of Zebstrika, Grumpig, and Mr. Mime isn't enough to convince you that Chinchou should rise, then I don't know how else I could convince you. Chinchou is a much better, and far more influential defensive Pokemon than any of the other Pokemon in the B- such as Klang, and as such I think a rise is warranted.

I'll try to keep this one short because I really don't have a lot to say. Basically, I've talked with a few people such as RawMelon about Simipour, and the general opinion I'm seeming to be hearing is one similar to mine, Simipour just isn't that good right now. Unfortunately, Floatzel seems to generally outclass AoA Simipour for the most part, and Simipour's viability as a breaker seems to have taken a hit as a product of the recent popularity of offensive Electrics, Chinchou, and recent drops such as Pelipper and Cacturne. Simipour is good for a drop now in my opinion, not to mention that I believe Simisage is the best Simi right now, and seeing Simipour above it just seems weird.

This nomination somewhat piggybacks off of my Muk nomination for a rise last week. Probopass is a borderline mandatory partner for Curse Muk, which in itself is a decent point in favor of a rise. However, Probopass doesn't solely benefit from Muk's increased popularity alone, Probopass has also benefited off of some recent meta game trends such as the increase in the popularity of Pokemon such as Dodrio, Mawile, as well as, ironically, Muk. Probopass is a pretty decent Normal check, that also doubles as a reliable Stealth Rock user, and a means to trap Steel-types such as Mawile, Pawniard, Metang, or even opposing Probopass. Role compression like this is something that has great value on a large number of balanced and bulky offense archetypes, especially those that also utilize Muk. Probopass just seems to be a very viable Pokemon in the current meta game that finds itself being a bit more viable, and likely to be picked due to common team archetypes that are popular right now, such as Probopass + Muk bulky offense/balance, or even just Normal spam + Probopass.

One other really cool thing about Probopass is the fact that if a Pokemon such as Stoutland wishes to knock out Probopass, they are forced to lock themselves into Superpower, which in turn gives free setup to Muk. Just another point to add to the list of reasons as to why Probopass and Muk were made for each other.

IMO Stoutland should stay A+. Even though it has few checks and counters, burning it with a ghost type shuts it down almost completely. It's also hurt by all forms of entry hazards, and many of the top tier threats in B+ or higher usually/sometimes carry a fighting type move. Examples include Floatzel, Cacturne, Monferno, Opposing Stoutland, Mr. Mime, Grumpig, Dusknoir, Muk, Ursaring, Misdreavus, Simipour, Simisear, Simisage, Raichu, Regice, Fraxure, etc. I will admit that it has some of the best bulk for a spamming pokemon, but in a meta where fighting type coverage is everywhere, I would keep it A+ for now. However, it going to S doesn't both me none either.

Same goes for Probopass. Floatzel, Cacturne, Monferno, Stoutland, Mr. Mime, Grumpig, Dusknoir, Muk, Ursaring, Misdreavus, Simipour, Simisear, Simisage, Raichu, Regice, Fraxure: they all carry a move that takes it down and out speed it and even though it synergizes well with Muk, Dodrio, Altaria and others, I don't see it faring well on teams that don't rely on steels being eliminated. Also there are only 16 steels in the entire tier including all the middle cup and little cup pokemon. It doesn't have enough of a niche for me to say it needs a rise. Stay at B+ please.

Chinchou is something I will abstain from. I don't use it really because I don't like using Swanna and I haven't used Pelipper in seemingly ages. What I do have to say about it is that most cores that involve Chinchou usually cannot deal with Specs Freeze Dry Lapras. Just saying.

Simipour needs to move down again despite dropping recently. Reason for it is because Floatzel outclasses it as a special attacker in almost every way. As a nasty plot sweeper, it's outclassed by Misdreavus, Cacturne, Simisear, Simisage, Ninetales and Raichu, who also recently dropped for being too frail as set-up sweeper. This is especially hindering when fast electric types are on the whereabouts, such as Electrode, Raichu, Zebstrika, Scarf Rotom Frost, and specially defensive electrics types such as Stunfisk and Ampharos are all around. It's physical set is becoming outclassed too, as Low Kick is becoming more popular on Pokemon such as Floatzel to get rid of Lapras and Gunk Shot is more common on Muk and Arbok.
It really needs to drop.

 

[LordST]

IMO Stoutland should stay A+. Even though it has few checks and counters, burning it with a ghost type shuts it down almost completely. It's also hurt by all forms of entry hazards, and many of the top tier threats in B+ or higher usually/sometimes carry a fighting type move. Examples include Floatzel, Cacturne, Monferno, Opposing Stoutland, Mr. Mime, Grumpig, Dusknoir, Muk, Ursaring, Misdreavus, Simipour, Simisear, Simisage, Raichu, Regice, Fraxure, etc. I will admit that it has some of the best bulk for a spamming pokemon, but in a meta where fighting type coverage is everywhere, I would keep it A+ for now. However, it going to S doesn't both me none either.

Same goes for Probopass. Floatzel, Cacturne, Monferno, Stoutland, Mr. Mime, Grumpig, Dusknoir, Muk, Ursaring, Misdreavus, Simipour, Simisear, Simisage, Raichu, Regice, Fraxure: they all carry a move that takes it down and out speed it and even though it synergizes well with Muk, Dodrio, Altaria and others, I don't see it faring well on teams that don't rely on steels being eliminated. Also there are only 16 steels in the entire tier including all the middle cup and little cup pokemon. It doesn't have enough of a niche for me to say it needs a rise. Stay at B+ please.

Chinchou is something I will abstain from. I don't use it really because I don't like using Swanna and I haven't used Pelipper in seemingly ages. What I do have to say about it is that most cores that involve Chinchou usually cannot deal with Specs Freeze Dry Lapras. Just saying.

Simipour needs to move down again despite dropping recently. Reason for it is because Floatzel outclasses it as a special attacker in almost every way. As a nasty plot sweeper, it's outclassed by Misdreavus, Cacturne, Simisear, Simisage, Ninetales and Raichu, who also recently dropped for being too frail as set-up sweeper. This is especially hindering when fast electric types are on the whereabouts, such as Electrode, Raichu, Zebstrika, Scarf Rotom Frost, and specially defensive electrics types such as Stunfisk and Ampharos are all around. It's physical set is becoming outclassed too, as Low Kick is becoming more popular on Pokemon such as Floatzel to get rid of Lapras and Gunk Shot is more common on Muk and Arbok.
It really needs to drop.

Your argument against Stoutland rising seems a little misguided. First off, burning Stoutland doesn't cripple Stoutland. In many cases it makes it even more threatening thanks to its combination of Scrappy and Facade. It's part of what makes Stoutland the best Normal type in the tier. On to your second point: yes a lot of threats carry fighting coverage. However many of the threats you named like non- Life Orb Mr Mime, Grumpig, or Misdreavus can't Ohko Stoutland and are ohkoed or just beat 1v1 by Stout anyways. I think you more than anything inadvertently showed how good Stoutland is with the way it can shrug off non STAB fighting moves and fire back with consistently hard hitting moves. Anyways False convinced me that Stoutland deserves S rank.

 

[QueenDaisy]

Agree with Stoutland->S:
Stoutland hits almost all of the tier extremely hard, and is one of the most splashable mons in the tier. Thanks to both Scrappy and Sand Rush being usable, it's also diverse, which is an important characteristic of all the other S-Rank mons. It's strong, easy to use, diverse, and has few- if any- checks and counters, which should, on sum, amount to it being S-Rank.

Disagree with Monferno->S:
Monferno is definitely extremely good, and it deserves to be high A+ for that reason, but the presence of Vullaby, Pelliper and a few other mons just force Monferno to either switch out or drop one of its preferred moves for something weird like tpunch. The presence of too many other mons which either scare or hurt Monferno limits it from currently deserving S-rank imo.

 

[TONE]

Regarding Stoutland, I won't touch on that all that much considering spamming Return and wearing down Normal resists such as Golem is very handy for other teammates and is an easily spammable move in general In regards to Monferno, I believe like most others have already mentioned, is deserving of S-rank aswhile Pokemon such as Vullaby and Altaria can switch in, Monferno can easily just U-turn out on these Pokemon and is often paired with Pokemon such as HP Ice Zebstrika and Rotom-F which can easily dispatch of said switchins. Also like False pointed out, I also agree with Simipour dropping as AoA sets have the coverage to deal with most Pokemon in the tier, but it's Speed holds it back immensly and Choice Scarf sets are easily taken advantage of once Simipour is locked into a move. Sub + NP is seldom seen with all the bulky Waters gaining usage. Quilladin could make a case for it to remain low A- if for the fact that you want a spike stacker on balance not named Roselia (Crustle can do this to some extent though its more of situation between a hazard setter which mostly fits on HO teams and has utility moves like Knock Off and a common weakness to Water and Rock at its disposal and a bulkier Spike setter with recovery in Synthesis and can Roar, Taunt, etc.) Another nomination I'd like to make:

Camerupt from B+ to B:

I don't know, but Camerupt isn't really doing much here for it to be considered B+ imo. Sure it can check Electric-types like Zebstrika and Raichu and provides Stealth Rock and the like, but with the switch to a more offfensive meta, Stunfisk and Golem are more preferred over Camerupt as primary Stealth Rock setters, and its unique typing not doing it much justice with Water and Ground moves being common and other than for uncommon Trick Room teams or an Offensive Stealth Rock user on webs teams (and even in this regard Marowak is more preferred), Camerupt just struggles to keep up and with people favoring Pokemon like Chinchou and Trapinch as Electric checks, I just don't see a legitamte reason to keep this thing B+. I honestly just use offensive tank Camerupt for the most part, but that's still not much of a reason either.

 

[Anty]

To add to the discussion:

Monferno to S-rank
Monferno is without doubt one of the most, if not the most, meta defining Pokemon in the tier due to both its defensive and offensive capabilities. People are seriously overstating the counters to Monferno, Pelipper is nowhere near as good as it was when it was last here and running Thunder Punch is a huge waste, in addition Pokemon like Stunfisk and Prinplup have really fallen from what they were only a month ago. Monferno's biggest defensive problem is Vullaby, and that isn't even a definite stop given how much strain Vullaby is usually under which can be exploited by teammates such as Leafeon and Grumpig. Also what people fail to understand is that Monferno is still amazingly useful even when the opponent has a stop for it. Outside of gaining momentum with U-turn, Monferno can still switch into and pressure many huge threats in the metagame such as Regice, and most importantly, Cacturne and Pawniard. Both of those Pokemon are huge problems for offense which can easily get out of hand, however Monferno's ability to switch in and/or revenge kill puts a lot less strain on teambuilder so you don't have to run things like fast Willowisp users or niche lures. Obviously everybody knows Cacturne immense offensive presence, but anyone who has used Pawniard recently should know how easily it can steamroll most offensive and balance teams, and that it becomes a lot less effective when playing a Monferno team.

Overall, Monferno provides unparalleled support to any team its on, making it the most splashable Pokemon in the tier, and it certainly lives up to what it can do on paper in practise.

Floatzel to A+
Floatzel is without a doubt a top offensive threat, however I no longer believe it to be as centralising and meta defining as the rest of S-rank. It is on a similar boat to Zebstrika, they both have amazing natural Speed and decent coverage, however Floatzel is stronger whereas Zebstrika has a much more useful ability. However, Zebstrika is considered worse as it has a harder team dealing with checks and counters, it has more switch ins and less set variations, though currently Floatzel's counters are pretty big, such as Politoed, Lumineon, and (puke) Chinchou, and pure physical sets really aren't as good as they used to be because they lack power and are more easily walled. Mixed sets are the best right now, but Floatzel is simply less effective with Water immunities and special tanks being common, along with faster Pokemon (including scarfers) and strong priority being common. With these factors, along with it not providing as much support as other revenge killers, I no longer believe Floatzel is as effective and deserving of S-rank.


The last thing I want to say is that there shouldn't be 21 Pokemon in B+ rank. All of these Pokemon have a valid case of being in B+ imo, but there are definitely Pokemon in that rank that are notably worse than others.

 

[MZ]

I've probably been the most vocal proponent of not moving Monferno or Stoutland up to S, so here's some more coherent reasons why. To be perfectly clear - I'd much rather stout in S which I'm more neutral-ish on but I really believe Monferno shouldn't go up and Floatzel is fine where it is also but mostly I don't agree with Monferno.

I didn't really know exactly how to put it until after reading through the top ten OU titan things where somebody posted about Lando-T not deserving some high rank, idk OU enough to know if the post was any good but if this helps you then maybe use it as a parallel. Essentially, S is not like other ranks. Other ranks really are about being splashable and effective overall. S rank has the whole effect on the meta thing, which matters a lot more than it does for any other rank. S ranks should really define and effect the PU metagame, and I see Monferno as a more reactionary mon. I might think it's better than Floatzel, or more splashable (for sure). But it doesn't define the meta as much as adapt to it. We use more Monferno because things like Cacturne and Pawniard are really stupid, we try Jolly U-Turn when Grumpig gets too annoying and run Thunderpunch because people think defensive Pelipper doesn't suck. But it's not really driving adaptation as much as fitting in the metagame, every option I run isn't so good that I dont wish I had something else all the time. You have to prepare for it but you don't have to overprepare. I'm sure some people will disagree because tiering is subjective and this is controversial but I don't see Monferno as a driving force, just as a rather good mon that goes along with the metagame, like Leafeon. Leafeon had that SD, some people screwed around with sunny day dual dance (or was it just me), then people picked up CB (underrated as fuck), then scarf now, but it's never really run the meta or been an S rank. I wonder how many people who want it up think that because it gets used a lot and not necessarily because it drives this meta. Maybe that isn't everybody, but it's a possibility.

Stoutland on the other hand, is less splashable because look at all the resistances it doesn't have, and I probably have seen less good builds with it. But I'd much rather see it in S because it really does shape the metagame in preparing for that speed tier, preparing Normal checks and your physical walls, and it can clearly run through unprepared teams as shown by advantage and pdc using one team for like 25 rounds of open together despite being pre drops. Floatzel I see as deserving of S despite it clearly not being as powerful because I still find it one of those mons that requires a lot of prep and changes what you run, I completely disagree with Anty's notion that its counters are pretty big when honestly Chinchou and Politoed are not as good recently and Prinplup and Lumineon really arent that hard to wear down at all. The worst thing for it recently is probably scarf leafeon becoming a thing tbh, but all scarfers annoy it to some degree. I've accepted this will probably fall because people don't think that it's that huge of a meta threat anymore, but I still don't see it that way. Nostalgia goggles away!

 

[Conor3197]

Ok here is a brief idea of my thoughts:

Stoutland to S rank: AGREE, this mon is just such a good affensive presence. Mons struggle to switchin against this thing. When we are teambuilding, it is a must to have a normal resist, because if you don't you are just asking to lose. I am aware too, that Stoutland also has access to a choice scarf set and howl restalk set. Although these sets aren't nearly as good as the band set, they are also sets which can catch people off guard.

Monferno to S rank: DISAGREE, sure monferno is great with access to uturn, thunder punch or swords dance, but being the only fighting type in the tier, makes it extremely easy to prepare for. Monferno isn't as threatening to switch into as other mons, such as Stoutland and it can be prepared for easier than Stoutland can imo.

Floatzel to A+ : AGREE, I feel that this mon is only in S rank at the moment due to its high speed tier and to show that affensive water types are extremely good in this tier. Although it's insane number of sets are really good, at the end of the day they are beaten by scarved mons or speedy electric types, eg. Electrode and Zebrastrika. Floatzel can also be walled by most water types that have water absorb (more so when running the affensive set with aqua jet, waterfall, ice punch, switcheroo / bulk up / BP). When using the special set, which has hp electric to counter this weakness, some bulky water types, eg politoed, can switchin and take a hp electric. What you can also do is predict hp electric and switch into a mon which has lightning rod / electric immunity like zeb and put your opponent in an even worst position. Overall I don't think this mon is S rank material.

Camerupt to B rank : AGREE, I have noticed that the B+ rank is getting a bit overcrowded. For this reason I believe there are some mons in that rank which are not as good as others. Although Camerupt is an extremely good electric resist, it doesn't really do much else. It struggles as a sr lead, due to its ground type weakness, and it gets walled by sp defensive walls, like audino / clefairy. It is also a good defensive Mawile counter, however more or less any ground types can switch into defensive Mawile and force it to switch and it is outclassed by probo in terms of Mawile resist. It's affensive set is horrible imo. It is extremely slow and is really frail when it runs an affensive set, as well as still being beaten by sp Def walls.

Rotom-S to B rank : AGREE, as Acast said, this form is just highly outclassed by rotom frost. The only benefit to using it is that it isn't beaten by monferno. While fire types are a better switchin for rotom frost, due to its fire weakness and their abilities to arborb willow wisp, you can often just predict the switchin and go into a water type. So in a way rotom frosts fire weakness can be taken advantage of to give you the upper hand in a battle. Stab blizzard also seems to be a better choice than stab air slash on choice scarf sets, mainly because this way you aren't walled by most common ground rock types in the tier like sp Def golem. Anyway Rotom-S just isn't doing well enough for B+ rank imo.

Simipour to B+ : AGREE, False made an extremely good argument and it is mostly for reasons stated above that I believe it should drop. Floatzel > Simi for aoa sets, its ability as a wall breaker is low due to rise in affensive electrics and chinchaou and after new drops. I am also finding this monkey a bit unreliable due to the fact that the only stab it usually runs is Hydro. This move always seems to be high risk high reward. Firstly it has a high enough chance to miss. This can put you in an awful situation somethings because you are basically giving your opponent a free hit / free switch. It's Hydro pp is also low. You can often switch into sp Def walls and predict Hydro but often afterwards you will have to switch as Simi runs superpower. Overall I think Simi is too much of a risk to be worth A-.

Now for my nom.

Prinplup to B : My reason for dropping prin to B is mainly because it gets worn down extremely easy. In terms of using this mon as a sr setter, I think I would just rather use another rock setter, such as golem, so that I can use this mon as a normal resist. Golem can also recover hp with lefties every turn and it has sturdy, preventing guaranteeing that it gets off 1 move most of the time. I don't see much advantages of using this mon over golem, besides it having access to defog. When you use sr and defog together, I believe this set is only worth of b rank due to being walled extremely easy by anything with water absorb / storm drain. Sure it can toxic those mons but they can do things just as worst back like toxicing your prin or hit back with a powerful attack and chip away at your Prinplup. When using this mon with only defog, it is kinda outclassed by lumineon. It is arguable whether having uturn is better than signal beam, but lumineon also has storm drain and can use lefties to recover back hp, whereas prin just gets worn down by rock damage and attacks until its useless. Overall I find this mons niche weaker then other mons niches in b+ rank.

 

[CB Weedle]

unranked - D/C-

I think Porygon has a niche in the current metagame. A good Bulk combined with eviolite, a great ability, a good movepool and Access for Trick Room make it a pretty good Pokemon against offensive Teams. With Download, it's Special attack is increased into high Levels and with a modest nature, it is able to hurt the Opponent very hard. Combined with a trick room and enough Bulk to set it against many Pokemon. A Movepool that includes moves like Ice Beam Thunderbolt Recover and Tri attack can bring an offensive Team to Desperation. I know it isnt only good, it has a weakness to priority in Mach Punch and defensive Teams dont have Problems dealing with it. Beside that there is still a reason to use Porygon, thats why i think it should be ranked.
A possible set:

Porygon @ Eviolite
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Tri Attack

Sry for my bad english:)

 

[pancake]

unranked - D/C-

I think Porygon has a niche in the current metagame. A good Bulk combined with eviolite, a great ability, a good movepool and Access for Trick Room make it a pretty good Pokemon against offensive Teams. With Download, it's Special attack is increased into high Levels and with a modest nature, it is able to hurt the Opponent very hard. Combined with a trick room and enough Bulk to set it against many Pokemon. A Movepool that includes moves like Ice Beam Thunderbolt Recover and Tri attack can bring an offensive Team to Desperation. I know it isnt only good, it has a weakness to priority in Mach Punch and defensive Teams dont have Problems dealing with it. Beside that there is still a reason to use Porygon, thats why i think it should be ranked.
A possible set:

Porygon @ Eviolite
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Tri Attack

Sry for my bad english:)

Hey, welcome to smogon! I just want you to know that our policy on unranked Pokemon is that you must provide replays showcasing why you think that Pokemon should be ranked. If you provide these replays, the council might consider it!