[QC Ready 2/3] Gyarados

[Subject 18]

QC Checks: SUSANOO91, Fuzznip
GP Checks:

[Pros]
<ul>
<li>Great Attack stat.</li>
<li>Good bulk coupled with its typing allows it to be able to set up.</li>
<li>Mega Evolution has Mold Breaker to beat its normal checks including Rotom-W and Gastrodon.</li>
<li>Has Moxie to turn it into a terrifying sweeper.</li>
<li>Intimidate allows it to weaken physical attacks and use that opportunity to either set or be a defensive walls.</li>
</ul>

[Cons]
<ul>
<li>4x weak to Electric moves.</li>
<li>Weak to Stealth Rocks.</li>
<li>Lacks a good Dark STAB move to take advantage of its Mega Evolution.</li>
</ul>

[Set Recommendations]

<p>name: Mega Dragon Dance<br />
move 1: Dragon Dance<br />
move 2: Waterfall<br />
move 3: Earthquake<br />
move 4: Bite / Stone Edge / Substitute<br />
ability: Intimidate<br />
item: Gyaradosite<br />
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd<br />
nature: Adamant</p>

<p>Mold Breaker allows you to hit Rotom-W with Earthquake. Gastrodon with Waterfall. Bite allows you to hit Ghost types such as Gourgeist and Trevenant. Stone Edge hits and opposing Gyarados and Dragonite harder.</li>
<p>Resists Aegislash's STAB moves.</p>
<p>Appreciates having Gourgeist, Chesnaught, Ferrothorn and Breloom gone. Talonflame is a good candidate to handle all those Pokemon.</p>
<p>A reliable rapid spinner such as Excadrill to clear hazards to have Gyarados as healthy as possible.</p>

<p>name: Bulky Dragon Dance<br />
move 1: Substitute / Taunt<br />
move 2: Dragon Dance<br />
move 3: Waterfall<br />
move 4: Stone Edge / Earthquake<br />
ability: Intimidate / Moxie <br />
item: Leftovers<br />
evs: 88 HP / 248 Atk / 4 Def / 168 Spe<br />
nature: Jolly</p>

<p>Great bulk allows it to find opportunities to set up.</p>
<p>Intimidate can make it easier to setup.</p>
<p>EVs to outpace positive Breloom before a Dragon Dance to avoid Breloom's Bullet Seed or Spore. After a Dragon Dance you outspeed Jolteon.</p>
<p>Good teammates that are able to beat bulky waters, such as Breloom and Venusaur. A teammate that can beat Toxicroak, if lacking Earthquake, such as Talonflame and Garchomp.</p>
<p>Excadrill can spin away the Stealth Rocks has good synergy with Gyarados.</p>

<p>name: Offensive Dragon Dance<br />
move 1: Dragon Dance<br />
move 2: Waterfall<br />
move 3: Stone Edge<br />
move 4: Earthquake<br />
ability: Intimidate / Moxie<br />
item: Lum Berry / Life Orb<br />
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe<br />
nature: Adamant Nature / Jolly Nature</p>
<p>Moxie makes Gyarados nearly unstoppable after a kill or two.</p>
<p>Standard EVs to maximize speed and Attack.</p>
<p>Earthquake is your best way of beating Toxicroak while Stone Edge hits Rotom-W.</p>
<p>Talonflame makes for a good teammate as it beats Chesnaught, Venusaur, Trevenant, and Gourgeist. Bulky ground types that can switch in on Electric moves such as Hippowdon, Quasire, and Excadrill. <p>Excadrill is good for spinning and has pretty good synergy with Gyarados.</p>

<p>name: RestTalk<br />
move 1: Waterfall<br />
move 2: Roar / Dragon Tail<br />
move 3: Rest<br />
move 4: Sleep Talk<br />
ability: Intimidate<br />
item: Leftovers<br />
evs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD<br />
nature: Impish</p>

<p>Great bulk and Intimidate makes for a great check to Physically offensive Pokemon.</p>
<p>Has Roar and Dragon Tail to phaze things out. Rest for quick Recovery and healing itself of status ailments.</p>
<p>Sleep Mechanics help this set excel like it once did.</p>
<p>Having hazards up can make this set really tough to deal with for the opponent.</p>
<p>Ferrothorn can take Electric attacks and is able to setup Stealth Rock and Spikes.</p>
<p>Spinners Excadrill allow Gyarados to switch in multiple times.</p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>Fast Electric types such as Heliolisk and Jolteon.</p>
<p>MegaVenusaur, Trevenant, and Gourgeist both can take hits and Leech Seed or Giga Drain.</p>
<p>Rotom-W is an issue to normal Gyarados.</p>
<p>Chesnaught walls any set Gyarados has to offer.</p>
<p>Skarmory, Vaporeon, Gastrodon, Ferrothorn, can all status or phaze you out.</p>

 

[Subject 18]

Seven Deadly Sins, gave me permissions to take it over.

I'll have it updated by tomorrow or tonight.

 

[Colonel M]

Have we talked about the original SubDD Bulky version of Gyarados in QC? I can't remember if we have or not.

Anyway, back in Generation V I used Intimidate a lot, and I don't think this generation counts as an exception. The prime advantage of Intimidate with SubDD is that you have a much easier time setting up a Substitute and, conclusively, a Dragon Dance. By no means is Moxie bad (especially with Jolly), but maybe once the other bulkier Water-types start showing up (I'm looking at you my favorite bait - Jellicent) we can discuss this further. Same with when Bounce is out - especially since Bounce gives a free turn of recovery (if sand / hail isn't present).

 

[McGrrr]

For two move coverage (with Substitute), Return should be a legitimate option. It's not spectacular by any means, but represents the best compromise between Stone Miss, Earthquake, and Ice Fang.

 

[Subject 18]

Ready for QC Checks.

Have we talked about the original SubDD Bulky version of Gyarados in QC? I can't remember if we have or not.

Anyway, back in Generation V I used Intimidate a lot, and I don't think this generation counts as an exception. The prime advantage of Intimidate with SubDD is that you have a much easier time setting up a Substitute and, conclusively, a Dragon Dance. By no means is Moxie bad (especially with Jolly), but maybe once the other bulkier Water-types start showing up (I'm looking at you my favorite bait - Jellicent) we can discuss this further. Same with when Bounce is out - especially since Bounce gives a free turn of recovery (if sand / hail isn't present).

I'll slash Intimidate and mention it when I write it up.

For two move coverage (with Substitute), Return should be a legitimate option. It's not spectacular by any means, but represents the best compromise between Stone Miss, Earthquake, and Ice Fang.

I'll mention it in the AC.

 

[SOMALIA]

QC APPROVED 1/3

 

[alexwolf]

<li>Good Bulky that allows it to be able to set up.</li>

Add there its good typing and remove the separate mention of him resisting Ghost-type moves.

<li>Mega Evolution has Mold Breaker to beat its normal checks.</li>

Mention which the most important of those checks are. Also, i would mention all three of his abilities as one pro, as they are all great and have their uses but it's too much to mention them as three separate pros.

<li>Mega Evolution is susceptible to Spikes and Toxic Spikes.</li>
<li>Does not have Crunch.</li>

Remove the bit about being weak to grounded hazards, it's true for a ton of Pokemon and shouldn't be mentioned in the overview. Also, change the second sentence to: ''Lack of a strong Dark physical attack to take advantage of its Mega Evolution''.

On the first set, why a Jolly nature?

Also, slash Intimidate first on all sets, it aids setup and makes Gyarados a team player, which is way more useful than aiding an already well prepared sweep (most teams that lose a Pokemon to a +1 / +1 Gyarados are likely to not have many answers left anyway) that is very easy to stop with the ton of priority users around.

Explain EQ and the moves on the last moveslot on the first set. What do they hit?

Add more teammates on all sets, such as Pokemon to deal with Stealth Rock.

In general, explain why you have the particular moves and EV spreads on each set, other than the obvious Waterfall. Why do you need to outspeed base 70s on the second set? There are a ton of things that need to be clarified before this is ready for QC stamps.

 

[Subject 18]

alexwolf, I made those changes.

 

[Fuzznip]

Mention in the Pros that Intimidate makes it a very decent RestTalk physical wall/phazer.

In the Mega DD set, mention that Mold Breaker also lets you hit Gastrodon with Waterfall. Also when you mention Aegislash, note that Mega Gyarados bypasses King's Shield with Earthquake.

You definitely need to slash Taunt with Substitute on the DD set. This helps it accomplish many things, such as preventing the phase from Skarmory and Hippowdon, opposing Pokemon setting up alongside you, status and recovery from walls/tanks, Encore, Perish Song, and Taunt users, etc. Nothing changed to cause this to be dropped. It's still a great option. Rename the set to "Bulky Dragon Dance."

In the C&C section, mention physical walls such as Skarmory, Vaporeon, Gastrodon, and Ferrothorn. All of them can either phaze or status you if you lack Taunt. Vaporeon and Gastrodon also have Scald for the potential burn, making set-up against them rather risky.

QC 2/3

 

[alexwolf]

Intimidate is awesome in general, not only for defensive sets, which is why it's slashed first. If you really want to mention each ability of Gyarados separately and not mention them all together as i told you, Intimidate should be the first ability you mention as a pro.

 

[alexwolf]

Subject 18 please add Intimidate in the pros alongside Moxie.

 

[Pirate O'Bells]

Doesn't MegaGyarados deserve maybe an ev distribution that makes it a little bulkier? I thinks it's a good option for a bulky sweeper other than pure sweeper, does it not?

 

[Jukain]

The issue with a bulkier Mega Gyarados is that it lacks the primary selling point of normal Gyarados -- resistances. It loses its Ground immunity, meaning it can't even check things like Garchomp anymore (this will be more significant when Landorus becomes available, but for now, it's still a big point). Instead of utilizing its Fire and Bug resistances to handle Volcarona, it loses due to a gained weakness to Bug Buzz. Instead of being able to handle Venusaur at least decently, it loses due to becoming weak to Grass. It even loses to Scizor by Mega Evolving!

It also becomes entirely unable to deal with Fighting-types, or Fighting-type moves. Instead of resisting their attacks, it takes SE damage from them. Fighting-type Pokemon, though not as prominent as they once were, are still all over the place, and therefore this is a significant concern.

It doesn't even have Intimidate past the first switch-in, and loses virtually everything that made bulkier normal Gyarados good.

It is simply the case that bulky Mega Gyarados is inferior in virtually every way to a bulky normal Gyarados, and is inferior to offensive variants of itself. It's better off with more coverage and power to hit harder right off the bat.

---

Next, I want to say a few things about ability options. On the Mega DD set, for one, I fail to see why running Moxie would be beneficial. After all, you are Mega Evolving, and thus you will have Mold Breaker anyways. Intimidate is much, much better to allow for easier setup opportunities, softening the blow of physical attacks immensely, which makes Mega Gyarados more difficult to revenge kill. In terms of nature, alexwolf brought up before 'why Jolly?', and I don't see any evidence that makes it superior either.

On the offensive DD set, I contend that Moxie is superior to Intimidate. Lacking the bulk and protection of SubDD, it needs all the power it can get, making Moxie easily the ability of choice. To that end, it makes more sense to run an Adamant nature, which boosts it power to even further heights without too much detriment to its Speed.

---

Ok, now... McGrrr I really don't see Return as an optimal option. A compromise is not really helpful when you want to hit certain targets. Others can be handled fairly easily by teammates. Although something doesn't have to be optimal to get an AC mention, I still don't see why you would run Return with only two-move coverage. Another move will serve you better.

---

Going back to offensive DD Gyarados -- I see Life Orb as the superior option. Here are some calcs for a reference point:

calcs

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 320-377 (98.7 - 116.3%)

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Gyarados Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 208-247 (52.7 - 62.6%)

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Gyarados Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 164-192 (62.5 - 73.2%) -- a guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Gyarados Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Chesnaught: 114-135 (35.8 - 42.4%) -- a 2HKO after SR + 2 layers of Spikes

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Gyarados Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 237-279 (73.1 - 86.1%) -- significant because it allows Gyarados to KO with a Waterfall after with an average damage roll, which means a hell of a lot less risk for it

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 153-183 (43.2 - 51.6%) -- a 2HKO after SR with two average or a high and a low damage roll

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Gyarados Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 285-335 (79.6 - 93.5%) -- very good chance to OHKO after SR + 1 layer of Spikes

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Gyarados Waterfall vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 335-398 (95.1 - 113%) -- OHKO after SR (couldn't be done without LO. and yes, Gliscor wouldn't switch in necessarily, but if it's trying to LO stall you, and realizes you don't have LO, runs the calc...yeah. oh, and it could cripple you with Toxic)

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 303-357 (78.9 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after SR + 1 layer of Spikes (otherwise this thing is just wrecking you)

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Gyarados Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 315-370 (110.1 - 129.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO, which there is no chance to get without LO

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 351-413 (83.5 - 98.3%) -- a good chance OHKO after SR, guaranteed with an extra 1 layer of Spikes (you really don't want to get phazed out)

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Gyarados Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 237-279 (81.1 - 95.5%) -- roughly 50% chance to OHKO after SR (big because otherwise it uses Draco Meteor and you're dead)

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Gyarados Waterfall vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Malamar: 302-356 (94 - 110.9%)

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Blastoise: 194-229 (53.5 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Gyarados Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 273-321 (77.5 - 91.1%)

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 142-168 (39 - 46.1%) -- decent chance to OHKO after SR

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Gyarados Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 156-185 (51.3 - 60.8%) -- huge, huge, HUGE 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Gyarados Waterfall vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 153-183 (46.7 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after SR (this is an outstanding achievement)

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 386-456 (97.9 - 115.7%)

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 172-203 (40.9 - 48.3%) -- 2HKO after SR + 1 layer of Spikes (on one of the bulkiest physical walls around)

As you can see, the sheer power granted by Life Orb is huge. The benefits of a Lum Berry are indeed pretty nice, but they're just not at the level of benefit LO provides, in my opinion.

 

[Pirate O'Bells]

Thank you Jukai for the almost perfect explanation, now I see your point very well. Also I wonder why couldn't I think of it by myself.

 

[alexwolf]

Agreeing with everything Jukain said (including removing Moxie as a slash on Mega DD Gyarados, as you will never get the chance to benefit from it) except from making Moxie the primary ability on offensive Gyarados. With priority being everywhere and Gyarados's less than ideal Speed even after one DD, offensive Gyarados is much better suited for wallbreaking rather than sweeping, which means that he will usually KO/weaken one wall or tank and then get revenge killed. Intimidate not only provides much more set up chances, but allows Gyarados to be a team player and check dangerous Pokemon such as +1 Mega Char X and +2 Talonflame, as long as SR is off the field.

So:

• Make Adamant the primary nature on everything except from SubDD
• Remove Moxie as a slash from the Mega DD set
• Expand on your checks and counters. You are missing checks such as Mega Aggron, Gourgeist, and defensive Gyarados, and possibly more that i am can't remember atm

Do those and i will stamp this.

 

[Pancham]

Given the Mega Dragon Dance set mostly likes bulky Grass-types, like Breloom, Gourgeist and Chesnaught, gone, couldn't Bounce be mentioned, if not slashed, on the set? I could see it being more useful than Stone Edge, especially, because of this.

Damage calcs

• 252+ Atk Mega Gyarados Bounce vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 292-348 (76.8 - 91.5%)
• 252+ Atk Mega Gyarados Bounce vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 146-174 (39 - 46.5%)
• 252+ Atk Mega Gyarados Bounce vs. 252 HP / 180+ Def Trevenant: 214-254 (57.2 - 67.9%)
• 252+ Atk Mega Gyarados Bounce vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Ferrothorn: 72-85 (20.4 - 24.1%)
• 252+ Atk Mega Gyarados Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 156-186 (41.7 - 49.7%)
• 252+ Atk Mega Gyarados Bite vs. 252 HP / 180+ Def Trevenant: 228-270 (60.9 - 72.1%)
• 252+ Atk Mega Gyarados Bite vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Ferrothorn: 76-90 (21.5 - 25.5%)

Using these calcs, it is quite evident that the damage output difference from using Bounce over Bite against Gourgeist, Trevenant and Ferrothorn is severely insignificant, as they do roughly the same damage. As for other pokemon that you may actually use Bite against, Waterfall also does roughly the same amount.

 

[Omegalord92]

Bounce isnt available Prebank atm

 

[Unowninator]

Given the Mega Dragon Dance set mostly likes bulky Grass-types, like Breloom, Gourgeist and Chesnaught, gone, couldn't Bounce be mentioned, if not slashed, on the set? I could see it being more useful than Stone Edge, especially, because of this.

Damage calcs

• 252+ Atk Mega Gyarados Bounce vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 292-348 (76.8 - 91.5%)
• 252+ Atk Mega Gyarados Bounce vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 146-174 (39 - 46.5%)
• 252+ Atk Mega Gyarados Bounce vs. 252 HP / 180+ Def Trevenant: 214-254 (57.2 - 67.9%)
• 252+ Atk Mega Gyarados Bounce vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Ferrothorn: 72-85 (20.4 - 24.1%)
• 252+ Atk Mega Gyarados Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 156-186 (41.7 - 49.7%)
• 252+ Atk Mega Gyarados Bite vs. 252 HP / 180+ Def Trevenant: 228-270 (60.9 - 72.1%)
• 252+ Atk Mega Gyarados Bite vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Ferrothorn: 76-90 (21.5 - 25.5%)

Using these calcs, it is quite evident that the damage output difference from using Bounce over Bite against Gourgeist, Trevenant and Ferrothorn is severely insignificant, as they do roughly the same damage. As for other pokemon that you may actually use Bite against, Waterfall also does roughly the same amount.

Even if it were available, you'd be better off not Mega-evolving (or at least hold off on doing so) for the STAB bonus. Plus Breloom's Mach Punch would be Super Effective instead of Not very effetive.

 

[Colonel M]

Given the Mega Dragon Dance set mostly likes bulky Grass-types, like Breloom, Gourgeist and Chesnaught, gone, couldn't Bounce be mentioned, if not slashed, on the set? I could see it being more useful than Stone Edge, especially, because of this.

Damage calcs

• 252+ Atk Mega Gyarados Bounce vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 292-348 (76.8 - 91.5%)
• 252+ Atk Mega Gyarados Bounce vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 146-174 (39 - 46.5%)
• 252+ Atk Mega Gyarados Bounce vs. 252 HP / 180+ Def Trevenant: 214-254 (57.2 - 67.9%)
• 252+ Atk Mega Gyarados Bounce vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Ferrothorn: 72-85 (20.4 - 24.1%)
• 252+ Atk Mega Gyarados Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 156-186 (41.7 - 49.7%)
• 252+ Atk Mega Gyarados Bite vs. 252 HP / 180+ Def Trevenant: 228-270 (60.9 - 72.1%)
• 252+ Atk Mega Gyarados Bite vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Ferrothorn: 76-90 (21.5 - 25.5%)

Using these calcs, it is quite evident that the damage output difference from using Bounce over Bite against Gourgeist, Trevenant and Ferrothorn is severely insignificant, as they do roughly the same damage. As for other pokemon that you may actually use Bite against, Waterfall also does roughly the same amount.

A better option is to simply use Ice Fang, though with cases like Breloom and Chesnaught you would hold off on your Mega Evolution. Bite handles Gourgeist to an extent. Bounce is really awful when you don't have STAB nor a Substitute to help you out.

Also, worthy of a test but RestTalk Gyarados sometimes ran Dragon Dance alongside Waterfall. It wasn't the absolute worst set on earth and it holds a lot of key resistances to pull it off (Intimidate too).

I also was willing to test a bulky set for Gyarados again:

- Taunt
- Waterfall
- Thunder Wave
- Roar / Dragon Tail

This set I used back in Generation 5 and it was spectacular. One major fear is you can't Taunt threats like Gliscor before it intoxicates you, but c'est la vie.