Implemented Quick Claw in DPP OU

[mael]

(approved by Star) ​

As of now Quick Claw is allowed in DPP OU. Certain RNG Elements have been removed from standard pokemon play in many tiers, including stuff that falls under evasion clause and similar issues. I would argue that Quick Claw falls in the same category. In my opinion it falls under both uncompetitive and unhealthy.

It is uncompetitive because it takes the game out of the better players hand a surprisingly high amount of times. While the chance for an activation is "only" 20% over a single turn, usually you have it on mons that have the bulk to be around for more turns and get the activation. You would usually put it on mons like Metagross, Machamp, Tyranitar etc who have high dmg output and OHKO potential while having the bulk to be around for a few hits. Especially in the case of Quick Claw on Machamp with Dynamic Punch activating that can just be detrimental to any sort of game plan one can make. There is no counterplay to it other than pray. add to that the fact that even if there was counterplay you cannot assume that quick claw is coming your way, since you would expect people to use more reliable items. I have a few replays from both myself and others to showcase games where the better player lost because of quick claw.

II.) We cater to both ladder players (the higher end of the ladder) and tournament players.
Some people might say that it is not a problem or not common in tournaments but I don't think that alone is good enough to justify not taking an action. It is very common on ladder and according to tiering policy decisions cater to both! Specifically on the higher end of the ladder running into a quick claw mon and losing means quite a lot, because at times there are not that many high elo players playing so oftentimes you're paired vs someone 300 points below you and then when you lose to a series of quick claw activations you couldn't prevent you have lost a lot of points. That is very unhealthy, both in the tiering policy sense (undesirable for the metagame such that they inhibit "skillful play") but also for ladder activitiy, when losing games like that gets punished hard it will discourage people from laddering.

Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-1799464561-kdh6su4b9ejw17kre013j7pidfy7kfkpw
oshoode had the game entirely lost until quick claw came into play. 3 activations and a good bulk on rhyperior turned a game around and there was no counterplay to it.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-887181044
starmasters team was by no means unequipped for rhyperior but when both of your para immune counters get hit by the quick claw there truly is nothing you can do. you can play this match up as many times as u want in the end the quick claw activations vs these 2 mons will be the deciding factor.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-1870824742-lr8qd1ste0vsyqznmqro12cy3t6yx92pw
bunch of quick claw activations through paralysis that turned the entire game on its head. oipon did what he had to, to win the game and yet didn't.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-1864509213-bo12ptyia58eck6rsu51jj75lxrbks3pw
emergency exit through quick claw on a game that looked pretty lost otherwise.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-1864329293-u7uvrf0vrr9uc5zmvt2mfrzksl9u5ynpw
revenge killing clearly is not a reliable option vs quick claw. how else are offensive teams supposed to deal with threats that have good coverage and ohko power if they cannot reliable outspeed them?

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-1861931616-3ahufk5y1j287srsrspg353910wq144pw
Conflict had a much greater Match Up, got the reads right but I stopped 2 of his mons with Quick Claw and in the end only lost due to a para (if Quick Claw activated the last turn I won too). The outcome there was more dependant on quick claw activations than anything else.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-1861947186-ee8h61dxs86bp68nrmr9661i851dzqopw
got kills I should not have gotten and opened up the game for my cune with quick claw.


The DPP Councils opinion is that Quick Claw needs to go and we hereby open the discussion on the topic.

 

[Dave]

What's the difference between now and when Excal tried to get it banned two years ago? Even posted some of the same replays.

Part of this game is unfair mechanics. Freeze. Full para. Critical Hits. Quick Claw.

I think it's unhealthy to relentlessly ban stuff. This community is trigger happy to an unhealthy degree.

My annoyance stems from the fact that there's an inherent difference between competitive play and ladder play. Is there even a proper measure of tournament games that have used quick claw? The elite players understand the risk and typically don't bother taking that risk in a tournament game.

Most of these replays are friendly or ladder games where the mechanic is very fun to use, and there's no repercussions for abusing the mechanic outside of dropping in points, making the reward for using QC on the ladder worthwhile.

I'm in favor of what ever you all decide and have no particular attachment to the mechanic outside of the joy it brings me in robbing games that I should have otherwise lost lmao.

But I will say that while I admire the passion of the DPP community, I challenge you all to quit being so soft. I have seen more meta changes and ban proposals in the last 2-3 years than the previous decade.

Leave this shit alone lol. Or at least come to a compromise and bring back Mence (and Chomp). ^____^

 

[R8]

Part of this game is unfair mechanics. Freeze. Full para. Critical Hits. Quick Claw.

I think it's unhealthy to relentlessly ban stuff. This community is trigger happy to an unhealthy degree.

I am honestly quite confused by this is an argument. Like, of course we do have to acknowledge that some aspects of the game are not fair, such as haxx or bad matchups, this is even mentioned in the tiering policy framework. However this doesn't mean we have to accept all of them: we cannot remove stuff like critical hits or freeze as a whole, but in the other hand things such as Evasion moves and Sand Veil did get banned from Smogon formats to make them more competitive.

Isn't it the whole point of tiering anyway, getting rid of the dumb stuff when we can afford to? Isn't that the whole philosophy behind Smogon metagames in general? In that case, why the hell are we bothering to keep Quick Claw? Like, it doesn't provide any kind of competitive utility whatsoever, and if your main concern is competitiveness I really don't understand why you would want to keep it.


That being said, if people believe this is not what smogon formats should aim for at all costs, then so be it. I personally always thought Smogon's tiering philosophy was about trying to minimise uncompetitiveness/variance everywhere possible, but if most people don't share that point of view then who am I to tell them they are wrong lol. In that case though, I'd like to ask you: then what is the point of Smogon formats? What are we trying to accomplish, besides making our formats as competitive as possible? Those are genuine questions I believe are important to be mentioned and discussed, as in my opinion the reason why stuff like the bright powder/evasion abilities ban in gen8 was so controversial is because the answer to these questions is actually not so clear.

 

[Le Don]

pls ban this item asap because I hate when I play testgames against Sharow : he's always using against me his stupid mono quick claw team

 

[Dave]

It's not really an argument. I don't care what you all decide to do. But quick claw has no competitive value. Using it is a massive risk in itself. You are not guaranteed to get value from it and it becomes a huge waste.

It is however a fun item to use in non-sanctioned matches. It's fun to randomly get that last turn activate. But is it a viable competitive option? Not really.

I just find it funny that it's all of a sudden a huge problem. A random uptick in ladder usage and all of a sudden it's a central focus of the community. It's taken 16 years for us to determine it needs to be banned. It's taken 5 years since I started spamming it for it to now suddenly be a topic.

I've been a major advocate of eliminating uncompetitive items/moves/strategies in the past (I spearheaded getting swagplay banned), and the risks associated with quick claw don't really warrant a ban imo.

Again, that's my opinion and I've been wrong many many times. Y'all can do what you think is right.

Edit: My only suggestion is that if you do nip it in the bud, that you eliminate every item that rewards some form of random luck. Focus band, quick claw, kings rock, etc.

 

[Sharow]

Quick claw is a gimmick and unviable item.

 

[Excal]

to clarify bc tagged: i made a one-off post in a king's rock thread about how quick claw was dumb, but never actually pushed for a ban. this is the first time dpp quick claw is seriously being considered for removal.

let's be real. this item is not that good at all. but it has bs potential and accounting for it ingame isn't that reasonable bc it's super random. dpp is a tier where you can make just about any random shit work; it would not surprise me to see quick claw having a negative effect on a high profile tournament game. there's 0 loss and tangible gain for removing it, so why not? i'm in favor of the ban, esp if it has dpp council's unanimous support.

 

[M Dragon]

What's the difference between now and when Excal tried to get it banned two years ago? Even posted some of the same replays.

Part of this game is unfair mechanics. Freeze. Full para. Critical Hits. Quick Claw.

I think it's unhealthy to relentlessly ban stuff. This community is trigger happy to an unhealthy degree.

My annoyance stems from the fact that there's an inherent difference between competitive play and ladder play. Is there even a proper measure of tournament games that have used quick claw? The elite players understand the risk and typically don't bother taking that risk in a tournament game.

Most of these replays are friendly or ladder games where the mechanic is very fun to use, and there's no repercussions for abusing the mechanic outside of dropping in points, making the reward for using QC on the ladder worthwhile.

I'm in favor of what ever you all decide and have no particular attachment to the mechanic outside of the joy it brings me in robbing games that I should have otherwise lost lmao.

But I will say that while I admire the passion of the DPP community, I challenge you all to quit being so soft. I have seen more meta changes and ban proposals in the last 2-3 years than the previous decade.

Leave this shit alone lol. Or at least come to a compromise and bring back Mence (and Chomp). ^____^

Ice beam freezing something 10% of the times is something to be expected and part of the game. You also cannot change that without altering game mechanics.
On the other hand a lot of the times you don't know if a certain mon is going to have a rbg based item like Quick Claw, so planning around the possibility of a mon having Quick Claw or not is nearly impossible, and that is where luck management is nearly impossible and can turn the game into a gamble.
You can also remove that element of the game without altering any basic game mechanic, unlike the other examples you gave.

 

[mael]

Since the support for a ban in this thread and on the DPP discord has been quite clear Quick Claw is now banned from DPP OU.

The council votes:

august	Ban
BIHI	Ban
DeepBlueC	Ban
mael	Ban
M Dragon	Ban

tagging Marty and Kris for implementation purposes. Thank you very much!