Raikou (Update)

[Seven Deadly Sins]

well in that case run hp fighting, how often do you see pert outside of the lead slot, if it is a lead it should be weak enough to die from a calm mind shadow ball, if not you should be switching if you have no boosts.
Or better yet update shoddy with aura sphere so it can be OU again!

The idea is HP water hurts switch in's more reliable so you can finish them off with a calm mind Shadow ball. Does Grass do anything other than kill swampert?

CMKou only ran HP Water in UU because its main counters were:

- Rhyperior, which is 4x weak to Water
- Steelix, which is neutral to both Grass and Ice
- Camerupt, which is also neutral to both Grass and Ice

Since none of those factors are present here in OU, HP Water is uninteresting. Also, how are you hitting things with a CM Shadow Ball if they're switching into HP Water?

That said, I'd support HP Ice over HP Grass. It makes you less screwed against Shaymin, which is becoming all too common, and also hits Flygon, Dragonite, and has pretty solid coverage in general.

 

[eXeggutoraped]

The idea was water has far less resistists than Grass and Fighting. So it would be:

They switched in counter -> takes SR damage and the (hopefully neutral) Boosted HP Water -> raikou outspeeds and kills with boosted Shadow ball.

Don't really care, i just thought grass was a terrible option like it is on scarf heatran ect. it has never worked for me.

Fighting and ice hit a lot more SE though, that's really the only point of using HP moves, so they win i suppose.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I think the main thing is that you don't get the point of Hidden Power. It is a GARBAGE neutral coverage move. You only want to run it to hit specific targets that you simply cannot hit otherwise. It doesn't matter if "water has less resists", because you don't want to be spamming it. You want to be able to bust out Hidden Power in a clutch situation against notable targets, because it is absolute garbage power-wise elsewhere.

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

With PO currently supporting Aura Sphere Raikou and SB2 supporting it when that comes out in the very near future I think it'd be best to prepare for that rather than writing this up and then having to change it when SB2 changes happen. Just seems smarter to prepare imo (especially when half of the people battling can already use it).

 

[AccidentalGreed]

With PO currently supporting Aura Sphere Raikou and SB2 supporting it when that comes out in the very near future I think it'd be best to prepare for that rather than writing this up and then having to change it when SB2 changes happen. Just seems smarter to prepare imo (especially when half of the people battling can already use it).

Oh. Right. Pokemon Online.

Time to get to work. In that case, would an all-out sweeper set with Rain Dance, Thunder, and Weather Ball be plausible? You're certainly taking away the ever annoying Sandstorm, and not only that. But you can hit hard off the bat with STAB Thunder and a basically stronger Water-type move in the form of 100 base power.

Also, Aura Sphere considerably on any generic Raikou set. If it's AC material, that's fine, I guess. In theory, all it really does is OHKO Tyranitar, but it seems like a solid, rare move that should be considered for 90 base power...

And Gengar IS jealous of that no-miss accuracy, you know?

 

[MetaNite]

OP is updated. I've agreed that HP Ice is superior to HP Grass ever since RL posted his comment. Aura Sphere has also been added to the Life Orb set and Beast of Choice. It is inferior to a Hidden Power type on the other sets, as Tbolt + Aura Sphere would be resisted by Gliscor while not hitting Flygon or Swampert as hard as you'd like to.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

Remember to slash Rash on the Choice set if you are slashing Aura Sphere.

I think it's stupid to have a shitty nature for just one move. Raikou doesn't want to ruin its great speed and special defense!

But whatever, I guess.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Rash isn't actually all that bad. The only notable things you are sacrificing speed on are Infernape and Gengar. Rash hits 329 Speed, which outspeeds +nature base 100s. Infernape needs a LO 252 Atk Jolly Close Combat to OHKO Raikou, and Gengar can't really touch Raikou after a Calm Mind, even with Rash.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

Rash still hurts because Raikou will want to switch into stuff like LO Zapdos' Heat Wave or Choice Specs Jolteon's Shadow Ball. With a neutral speed nature, you are losing to things like CS Magnezone. You can see Explosion from him coming from a mile away, but switching around really isn't Raikou's thing, especially if hazards are up. The speed tie with Starmie is also lost, which is a shame because Hydro + Thunderbolt is a guaranteed 2HKO with a Rash Nature. Obviously, these are less than ideal situations, but +speed and ~special defense probably help in more situations that Aura Sphere would. Besides, the only times I see that move being more helpful than HP Fighting is against things like Breloom, some versions of Shaymin, Bulky Heatran (Calm 252 HP/252 SpD versions still always survive +1 Rash Aura Sphere after SR) and Specially Defensive Tyranitar. The extra base power is nice against things like Pert, but you really want another way to deal with him, since he would maim you with EQ if he's at enough health.

Rash isn't absurd, but HP Fighting definitely deserves a mention.

 

[supermarth64]

Rash still hurts because Raikou will want to switch into stuff like LO Zapdos' Heat Wave or Choice Specs Jolteon's Shadow Ball.

252 Timid Life Orb Zapdos Heat Wave
vs. 4/0 Timid Life Orb Raikou : 42.9% - 50.6%
vs. 4/0 Rash Life Orb Raikou : 47.8% - 56.5%
Uh Raikou's not gonna love switching into that either way.

252 Timid Choice Specs Jolteon Shadow Ball
vs. 4/0 Timid Life Orb Raikou : 36.3% - 42.9%
vs. 4/0 Rash Life Orb Raikou : 40.4% - 47.5%
Nor that.

With a neutral speed nature, you are losing to things like CS Magnezone. You can see Explosion from him coming from a mile away, but switching around really isn't Raikou's thing, especially if hazards are up.

Raikou's Speed tying with CS Magnezone if it wants to beat it (it has to use HP Fighting), so Magnezone can still Explode on it.

The speed tie with Starmie is also lost, which is a shame because Hydro + Thunderbolt is a guaranteed 2HKO with a Rash Nature.

Raikou's KOed most of the time after HPump + Tbolt + SR and kills itself if it attacks Starmie, so it's not like that makes a difference anyway. Besides, this is comparing HP Fighting to Aura Sphere, which makes no difference on Starmie's part because Raikou has to run a 30 Speed IV.

Obviously, these are less than ideal situations, but +speed and ~special defense probably help in more situations that Aura Sphere would.

Yep because you really want to depend on Raikou to take strong special hits.

Besides, the only time I see that move being more helpful than HP Fighting is against things like Breloom, some versions of Shaymin, Bulky Heatran (Calm 252 HP/252 SpD versions still always survive +1 Rash Aura Sphere after SR) and Specially Defensive Tyranitar.

Aura Sphere OHKOes Scarf Tyranitar without a boost (with LO), so you can OHKO it on the switchin. It does 49.4% - 58.4% to Swampert with +1 LO Aura Sphere meaning not using HP Grass isn't a big loss. It does much better vs Blissey (41.5% - 49% to 252/0 vs 30% - 35.4% from Timid Thunderbolt), 2HKOes Curselax (52.9% - 62.4% vs 38.4% - 45.3%, and others). It also obtains perfect neutral coverage whereas HP Grass leaves Magnezone unchecked and HP Fighting means you take heavy damage vs Starmie and can lose vs Scarf Magnezone anyway.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

Ugh, I didn't realize HP Fighting made Raikou have an imperfect Speed IV. Anyway, Fighting + Electric doesn't give perfect neutral coverage (Gliscor), but ya, ok.

 

[RaikouLover]

It also obtains perfect neutral coverage whereas HP Grass leaves Magnezone unchecked and HP Fighting means you take heavy damage vs Starmie and can lose vs Scarf Magnezone anyway.

Seriously, don't even bother with Aura Sphere. It works "I guess" on the Offensive booster obviously over HP Fighting, but even that is a shitty option since its only for Tyranitar.

Never bring up Magnezone as one of the reasons Raikou should be considering HP fighting / Aura Sphere. Magnezone is walled shitless by Raikou and is the definition of set up fodder. I really can't think of a reason for Aura Sphere other than if people suddenly start using Steelix or a surge in Mamoswine usage. Aura Sphere also means you lose OHKOs on Pert and a massive chunk on Hippo. Ehh..

 

[supermarth64]

Never bring up Magnezone as one of the reasons Raikou should be considering HP fighting / Aura Sphere. Magnezone is walled shitless by Raikou and is the definition of set up fodder. I really can't think of a reason for Aura Sphere other than if people suddenly start using Steelix or a surge in Mamoswine usage. Aura Sphere also means you lose OHKOs on Pert and a massive chunk on Hippo. Ehh..

Considering Magnezone OHKOes Raikou with Explosion and it's Magnezone's second most used attack (first is Thunderbolt for obvious reasons) at 56.9% usage, Raikou can't set up on Magnezone. It also can't Substitute because it's not using that on that set.

The fact that it's slashed means that the first option is generally better but the second option is viable also. You still deal a large chunk to both Swampert and Hippowdon either way (Swampert takes 49.4% - 58.4% from +1 LO Aura Sphere), and it lets you beat Tyranitar whereas HP Grass doesn't OHKO Tyranitar), so you're trading up beating Swampert for beating Tyranitar.
252/88 Impish Leftovers Hippowdon
vs. 252 Timid Life Orb Raikou +1 (70bp Grass Special) : 75.7% - 89.5%
vs. 252 Rash Life Orb Raikou +1 Aura Sphere : 53.6% - 63.1%

Aura Sphere also helps Raikou beat Snorlax because it 2HKOes Curselax while Curselax only 3HKOes back. If beating down a special tank like Snorlax is a "shitty option", then you need to redefine your definitions. (+1 Timid Raikou only 3HKOes with Tbolt)

 

[Colonel M]

Using Aura Sphere also means you don't forfeit to Tyranitar who is... oh I don't know, Raikou's biggest counter next to Blissey?

 

[Chou Toshio]

The idea was water has far less resistists than Grass and Fighting. So it would be:

They switched in counter -> takes SR damage and the (hopefully neutral) Boosted HP Water -> raikou outspeeds and kills with boosted Shadow ball.

Don't really care, i just thought grass was a terrible option like it is on scarf heatran ect. it has never worked for me.

Fighting and ice hit a lot more SE though, that's really the only point of using HP moves, so they win i suppose.

What SDS said-- Hidden Power is so, SO weak, and it never has STAB. Neutral hits are worth shit with it. It's only worth using if it hits super effective, and then hopefully 4x super effective. Otherwise, even a neutral Thunderbolt is more powerful than a 2x super effective Hidden Power.

(ie. Hidden Power is only good if the enemy is 4x weak, or is 2x weak and resists your STAB)

 

[MetaNite]

I am trying to be as reasonable as possible through all this arguing. Aura Sphere is not an AMAZING move but it is certainly viable and is keeping its slash on the Life Orb and Choice set. It is actually very viable on the Scarf set as you do not really have a great 4th move anyway. I just want this to get approved already so I can write this before I get really busy with school.

 

[RaikouLover]

Using Aura Sphere also means you don't forfeit to Tyranitar who is... oh I don't know, Raikou's biggest counter next to Blissey?

Ummmm no. Tyranitar is not a counter to Raikou. It is a check. Tyranitar doesn't appreciate switching into Life Orb or Specs Thunderbolts. Ohh gee, Specs Thunderbolt 2HKOs with SR.. yeah great counter. Not to mention Tyranitar needs to be carrying Earthquake since it doesn't OHKO otherwise. Raikou's counters are still and always will be ground types. Swampert, Flygon, Gliscor, etc. (depending on HP) much more so than Tyranitar.

Considering Magnezone OHKOes Raikou with Explosion and it's Magnezone's second most used attack (first is Thunderbolt for obvious reasons) at 56.9% usage, Raikou can't set up on Magnezone. It also can't Substitute because it's not using that on that set.

Don't set up Calm Mind Suicune on Heatran because it can explode? No, Magnezone is set up fodder. Explosion doesn't make Magnezone a Raikou counter and such a "viable option" for Aura Sphere considering Magnezone takes a fuckload from +1 LO Thunderbolt anyway despite the resist.

If anything, HP Grass / HP Ice should be the slashes with Aura Sphere in AC. I'd rather OHKO Flygon switch-ins with HP Ice and not have to fuck with them for the rest of the match (as well as OHKOing Gliscor too) than pack Aura Sphere for Choice Scarf Tyranitar who doesn't even appreciate switching into Life Orb Thunderbolt.

 

[Chou Toshio]

While I think TTar is beast and something definitely worth considering when using Raikou, Flygon is a pokemon much harder to deal with-- if only because the only way to kill it is via direct attack, where as Tyranitar will be worn down by SR (or spikes) eventually. Taking out a flygon switch in is definitely a huge boon to any team.

 

[AccidentalGreed]

Well, apparently, the majority of Tyranitar in today's metagame runs Earthquake in favor of SuperPower, since its teammates can take care of Blissey, in red. ScarfTar is also ridiculously popular with Earthquake, so this kind of makes the use of Aura Sphere questionable. If it's not running Earthquake, it won't rape as hard with Crunch or Stone Edge, but they'll do before Raikou can hit with another Thunderbolt (Crunch does 50% - 59.5% to a purely offensive Raikou).

I, for one, am not sure that Raikou wants to run Aura Sphere just for Tyranitar and friends, and if it runs a generic Hidden Power, then it runs into a bit of problems for itself (Jolteon as competition and Sandstorm and ScarfTar and Life Orb recoil...).

 

[Setsuna]

I would like to request other QCers to review the information in this thread and weigh in appropriately, please.

I think it's plausible to mention in AC of the Offensive CM set that if one doesn't want to lower Raikou's Speed with the intention of using Aura Sphere, HP Fighting can be used to OHKO Tyranitar after a Calm Mind, while at the same time retain the necessary speed to outrun Infernape, Starmie, and Gengar, all of whom get KOed and won't be able to touch Raikou. Finally, please mention in OC that HP Ice is another viable option, and detail the PROS and CONS of using it over HP Grass. I'd like to see all of this listed.

EDIT: I kept thinking about Aura Sphere, and after running some calcs I don't know why it should be slashed with HP Grass on the Offensive CM set. The only appealing thing that I can see about Aura Sphere is that it will enable Raikou to always 2HKO Careful 188 HP / 216 SpD Snorlax and OHKO 0 HP / 0 SpD Heatran. However, the situation with Heatran doesn't really matter, since Raikou will always OHKO that variant with Thunderbolt after a turn of SR damage. As for Specially Defensive Heatran, both Rash + Aura Sphere and Timid Thunderbolt achieve the 2HKO (the former deals ~74% of damage, and the latter ~53%). On the other hand, 0 and the weird 84 HP variants of Magnezone get OHKOed by HP Fighting 100% of the time after a CM. Tyranitar is in the same boat as Magnezone, 0 and 180 HP variants (CS and CB) get OHKOed by a +1 HP Fight.

I would really like to hear what others have to say about this, specially the QC team. However, I am not happy with Aura Sphere's slash now. What I think should be the way to go is: Timid nature | HP Grass / HP Fight and Aura Sphere mentioned in AC for Snorlax. With this being said, let's hear some opinions!

 

[MetaNite]

I am typing from my itouch and may not update the op but I will surely include what you've outlined in the write up. Don't forget however that HP Fighting gives you an
Imperfect Speed IVs anyway so you will not tie with Starmie and Azelf. I ask that QC weighs the pros and cons and decides the best course of action. Thank you.

 

[Zach]

"Beast of Choice"

 

[Megan_Fox]

k i agree that Aura Sphere should be AC Material. Timid HP Fighting is superior most of the time.

QC Approved 1/3

 

[Setsuna]

My approval is pending on what I outlined as well.

 

[NightShadow]

And Jolteon isn't weak to Pursuit, since no pursuiter can actually take two Specs Thunderbolts.

Can't tyranitar take two specs thunderbolts?