Enigami
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https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/rby-ou-ladder-jank-discussion-thread.3709171/Question, then. If I wished to continue this discussion, where specifically should I take it?
Other Tiers - RBY Other Metas Hub | Smogon ForumsQuestion, then. If I wished to continue this discussion, where specifically should I take it?
I have been having decent success running counter chansey in OU. So many pokemon run body slam and hyper beam so counter might be an okay move to go with. Chansey can also heal the damage with soft-boiled sometimes. Counter chansey is at least a reasonable way to deal with tauros, but not too much else. I'm curious to see what other people think of this.View attachment 515713View attachment 515713
This was just a really cool idea that I had the other day. I don’t even think a lot of people know that Slowbro even has access to counter but its been pretty successful on ladder. Nobody really thinks twice about throwing out their body slams and hyper beams at this guy in fear of the dreaded slowbro sweep but this set really takes advantage of that and it can get a pretty sick counter off on Tauros under the right circumstance.
Once counter is revealed, Tauros will always EQ it since counter doesn't work on EQ, so keep this in mind, also counter chansey often drops twave for it so chansey loses it's biggest tool against taurosCounter chansey is at least a reasonable way to deal with tauros, but not too much else.
Counter has negative priority so you always move second. This is why chansey can use counter vs snorlaxslowbro and chansey have the benefit of being slow so they attack second.
I probably wouldn’t want to risk losing my tauros just so I can bslam the switch instead of EQing it, so I would recommend still EQing here unless you absolutely need to bslam. I don’t wanna sack my tauros just because of one wrong prediction.There's some more nuance to this. Chansey can choose to not Counter (including switch) against Tauros BECAUSE of the expectation they'll EQ anyway, making Body Slam a reasonable play if there's a chance you can get more value out of it if the Counter Chansey player, though EQ is obviously safer especially if Chansey drops TWave.
I'm not sure about how much Snorlax users were and/or are scouting or not, that depends on who you are playing. One sure thing is that ReflectHB Snorlax or other monoLax variants have nowhere to go and that's the reason that makes you want to use Counter Chansey in first place: stop reflectHB Snorlax from manhandling you without having to use things like Gengar, IceLax and Rhydon (obviously Counter gives you the chance to KO, which is way better than walling, while also being a threat in other scenarios).I feel like 3hko chans was kind of just a thing when Snorlaxes weren't always scouting it as much as they do now. TW/IB/Counter is fine tho since I never had too much issue with monoib aside from Jynx freezing more (never felt like it was too imperative to have TBolt for mie tbh)
I feel like you’re sorely mistaken if you feel ohko moves wouldn’t be used much. Rby moves at a relatively slow pace and giving something like tauros the ability to ohko cloyster or reflect lax is an amazing quality. It’s not just the obvious ones too: para support can make anything a usable ohko spammer. Lesser used mons like lapras and dnite suddenly can become good wallbreakers by flipping a coin. It’s way way worse than freeze spamming imo.Why are we limiting OU move variety so much with arbitrary rules?
At minimum tradeback moves should be allowed in OU and no-tradebacks could replace it as the niche unofficial format for those who want to reminisce the 2,5 year window between 96-99 before tradeback moves were introduced. Some of the players weren't even born before that window, let alone play competitive pokemon at that time. We have had 24,5 years of time to adjust to Gamefreak giving pokemon a bit more move variety. If Showdown was an official game with official Nintendo tournaments, they would obviously not ban us from using these moves. Previous tests have shown that the metagame doesn't drastically change with these moves, and it certainly doesn't change for the worse.
Long time ago people thought that Hypno would be S tier and the metagame would revolve around beating the crazy boosting pokemon, when in reality the best pokemon are still Snorlax/Tauros/Chansey, and Slowbro has even been argued to remain the best Amnesia user by top players. The number of viable pokemon in OU is increased by a few, while no-one really drops out, increasing the variety of pokemon a bit. Snorlax becomes the best pokemon, but its playrate doesn't even increase since its literally 100% already, it just has more move variety.
I'd also like to see OHKO moves allowed given a real test. Frankly, many of the arguments I've seen for keeping them banned seem to revolve around not understanding how they work, fearing that they would be too powerful or being concerned about the RNG aspect, but we have stuff like Chansey/Snorlax freeze wars which are 50-50 coinflips and if anything, that's where OHKO moves could help a bit. OHKO moves might see a bit of fringe play for specifically breaking through the most passive Snorlax and Chansey sets. Rhydon trying to kill a reflect Chansey with Horn Drill is IMO not more BS than Rhydon trying to kill it with FP chains and 7.8% crits. Or keeping it unparalyzed and trying to freeze war it instead. What is more dumb is that pokemon like Rhydon have literally 4 moves worth using, when they could have a viable additional option.
But again, I really don't think OHKO moves would be used much and I assume that their impact would likely be minimal, just increasing variety slightly. I don't think they have been given a real test with good players to see where their usage would end up in practice. Even if it's higher than expected though, the biggest losers are undoubtedly Chansey and Snorlax.
Ideally I would personally also like to see Fly and Dig allowed. Fly might be a viable move for Aerodactyl for example, again increasing move variety in the game a tiny bit. I understand that allowing them is a bit more controversial though. I remember this being debated long ago, and the arguments in favor of banning them are certainly more solid than banning tradeback and OHKO moves. And as always, we decided to limit our options to make the game 0.01% worse when we could make it 0.01% better.
I'd really want the mentality to change from limiting our options as much as possible to increasing them as much as we can.
I was one of the biggest advocates for testing tradebacks but saying they barely affect the meta is flatly not true. Lovely Kiss Snorlax is a huge change that makes it much easier to spread paralysis early because psychics and chansey can't sleep block it like they can do to gar/jynx/egg/chans. Hypnosis Persian is another physical sleeper and it's faster than Gengar. Elemental punches and Hypno aren't as big, true, but Gengar no longer fears Egg or Rhydon and Zam can totally destroy one of Mie or Egg. I still support a test because I think all things deserve a test before being banned, and TBs never got that, but they do affect a lot, don't minimize it.stuff
Does any really want Tradebacks legalised though? Its switching to an entirely different metagame that is incredibly underdeveloped compared to standard OU which has seen steady development for over 20 years and that tbh, is much worse than standard OU. The fair suspect bell has been rang alot, but thats not enough to actually legalise them.At minimum tradeback moves should be allowed in OU and no-tradebacks could replace it as the niche unofficial format for those who want to reminisce the 2,5 year window between 96-99 before tradeback moves were introduced. Some of the players weren't even born before that window, let alone play competitive pokemon at that time. We have had 24,5 years of time to adjust to Gamefreak giving pokemon a bit more move variety. If Showdown was an official game with official Nintendo tournaments, they would obviously not ban us from using these moves. Previous tests have shown that the metagame doesn't drastically change with these moves, and it certainly doesn't change for the worse.
Please no OU would literally just become OHKO move spam with 0 counterplay whatsoeverI'd also like to see OHKO moves given a real test
I don't play RBY but lurk this thread and wanted to comment on this.Ideally I would personally also like to see Fly and Dig allowed. Fly might be a viable move for Aerodactyl for example, again increasing move variety in the game a tiny bit. I understand that allowing them is a bit more controversial though. I remember this being debated long ago, and the arguments in favor of banning them are certainly more solid than banning tradeback and OHKO moves. And as always, we decided to limit our options to make the game 0.01% worse when we could make it 0.01% better.
I think they meant patching the glitch out, like desync clause.I don't play RBY but lurk this thread and wanted to comment on this.
Fly/Dig glitch makes things literally unkillable, and the Paralysis needed to trigger it isn't exactly uncommon. I shouldn't have to explain why something like an invincible Dragonite or Moltres could be a major problem. Making Aero marginally less worthless isn't a good trade.
Desynching is a major glitch that no one benefits from and breaks the game. It's an edge case we ignore for playability. Dig/Fly cheese is a potential auto-win button. Not comparable.I think they meant patching thr glitch out, like desync clause.
I meant before desync clause was voted on, moves that could cause desync' were just banned (until it was descovered Counter could cause desync ofc), I'm saying I think they meant to patching out Fly and Dig's invincibility glitch, like desync clause patched out desyncs for Counter and Psywave, Psywave was also banned before desync clause.Desynching is a major glitch that no one benefits from and breaks the game. It's an edge case we ignore for playability. Dig/Fly cheese is a potential auto-win button. Not comparable.
Let's not pretend "just switch to something fast" is counterplay. Freeze has an actual opportunity cost - you have to not spread paralysis if you want to freeze fish, and Pokemon like Cloyster come in free versus freeze fishing.
Leaving it at this, Also paralysis quarters your speed, so if your paralysed any OHKO move will work on you vs if the opponents unparalysed. And also Gengar and Zapdos being the only two actual counters when they both lose to the like.s of Rhydon isnt that great of an argument tbhAnd I don't agree with OHKO moves not having counterplay, I think they have significant counterplay. First of all, remember that they always fail if the opponent is faster. You can switch into a faster pokemon, make the opponent slower, use a substitute or just kill the opponent. OHKO moves also have immunities, Horn Drill to Gengar and Fissure to Flying pokemon.
Yeah we seem to disagree quite heavily on this matter. To me it seems like OHKO moves have better counterplay against them than any other move in the game. I do not understand either one of the speed arguments, why isn't switching to a faster pokemon for full immunity not a form of counterplay? It's a free switch. And how is paralysis quartering speed a one-sided factor, when both players can do it? You can paralyze the OHKO move user.Leaving it at this, Also paralysis quarters your speed, so if your paralysed any OHKO move will work on you vs if the opponents unparalysed. And also Gengar and Zapdos being the only two actual counters when they both lose to the like.s of Rhydon isnt that great of an argument tbh