Rejected RE: Cloyster & Volcarona in BW OU [ Survey Post # 29 ]

[peng]

I think its become clear that opinions on the direction of BW tiering are very mixed, within both the tournament scene and the playerbase at large - I think it is about time we hold a survey for the direction of the tier moving forwards, Current-Gen style. How do players feel about the tier, what % are interested in a serious attempt at re-tiering, and finally lets put some actual numbers for support on some of these problematic elements. My impression from talking to players is that Volcarona is probably the only Pokemon close to reaching support for ban, but it would be good to actually get an idea for how much support things like Drizzle would have, if only so we can put this discussion to bed.
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All that said, why do people wait for a Volcarona thread to go up before trying to start a movement on Reuniclus, Excadrill, Chlorophyll, Latios, Drizzle, Keldeo, Thundurus-T, Scald? Its been almost 18 months since the last tiering change in BW - to ban Gems - and during those 18 months anyone here could have started their own PR or BW forum thread on whatever suspect they pleased. If a Volcarona thread had never gone up, what would everyone here suggesting different bans have done? Stayed silent? If you really care about these then why do we wait for other discussions to start talking about them?

This is a frustrating element of trying to tier anything on Smogon but particularly in BW. Chlorophyll is a particular frustration - this is only ever spoken about in these suspect threads every 1.5 - 2 years and then there is no serious movement to unban Chlorophyll between. Its hard to feel like some people are serious about changing this stuff and that its used purely to distract + undermine the people who actually took the onus to make the PR thread on the mon they're passionate about. If you care about these then have the balls to write the OP and let others pick your argument, rather than using "chlorophyll fixes bw" as a one-liner gotcha every time we actually try and do anything

If we seriously get support for any of the above, including a complete re-tier approach, then I'm keen to go down the direction the playerbase wants. I think there is merit to a full re-tier, and we should survey! But the way these threads get hijacked every time by people who won't make a thread on suspects themselves, just divert other people's, is incredible BS.

 

[LuckOverSkill]

I find Cloyster hard to sweep with. It sets up for free on every ground type, but even then, SR + Sand complicate its job to an unreasonable degree. It's hard to keep hazards off, set up, and have enough health to sweep. Generally, it's a result of good plays from the Cloyster user / bad plays from the player facing Cloyster, as Water Ice with that special defense is simply not good. Setting up for free on basically every Ground type is great and annihilating most sand teams is an interesting trait, but SR + sand ruin it, and those are the team Cloyster preys upon the hardest. It also has a few hard stops. I'm in the no ban camp.

Volcarona I'm more on board with banning. As long as rocks are off the field, you're in extreme danger. Quiver Dance is an incredible boosting move, and the STABs combination is just perfect for BW. You can round it up however you wish to pick what beast Volc, based on your team and what you're expecting to face. There are almost no teams that can confidently claim they beat Volcarona. The right coverage move equals a guaranteed sweep, and the special defense boost granted by Quiver Dance makes setting up exceedingly easy. Your best bet is to revenge kill with priorities — though Flame Body makes it undesirable in most cases. Scarf Garchomp and Latios are okay too, but Latios doesn't OHKO from full after a QD, and vs Garchomp the Volcarona can just click Bug Buzz the first time around. I'm not thrilled by a Volcarona ban, but I find it reasonable enough.

All that said, why do people wait for a Volcarona thread to go up before trying to start a movement on Reuniclus, Excadrill, Chlorophyll, Latios, Drizzle, Keldeo, Thundurus-T, Scald? Its been almost 18 months since the last tiering change in BW - to ban Gems - and during those 18 months anyone here could have started their own PR or BW forum thread on whatever suspect they pleased. If a Volcarona thread had never gone up, what would everyone here suggesting different bans have done? Stayed silent? If you really care about these then why do we wait for other discussions to start talking about them?

Discussion around those Pokémon always gets hand waved as "not happening as it would ruin the tier's identity/balance." I'm sure you've read posts adamantly opposing the proposal as it would make the castle collapse, BKC briefly touched on them in his excellent post. Latios gets the occasional post every time a thread discussing the general state of the tier pops up, but that's never been enough. Nobody has posted a serious proposal about banning either of the things you mention in years. I wonder if it's because we never took the idea seriously due to a defeatist belief, or if people who want those threats gone are a minority. Either way, a thread is warranted, I'll get one going.

P.S. Have the rules on posting threads in this forum changed? I recall threads like these needing the approval of a council member, but maybe I'm hallucinating.

 

[Finchinator]

We are likely to have a playerbase survey on some of the things discussed here and how to proceed with BW tiering; I will post more specifics on it in the immediate future as I begin to work on it.

 

[Finchinator]

Hello everyone, we have a BW OU Community Tiering Survey!

Please fill it out if you are interested in the future of our metagame; it should only take 1-2 minutes. Note that people who "qualify" via playing specific tournaments can indicate their qualificatons at the end of the survey across some prompting questions, so we can examine that focal demographic's thoughts.

This survey focuses of this thread's topic -- Cloyster and Volcarona -- as the council looks to get valuable data on how our playerbase feels. However, it also touches on some other Pokemon in an open-ended fashion that allows for people to express their thoughts on the larger metagame, which has been under examination here.

Please have this filled out by the end of Wednesday the 13th of December and, if you have any questions, message me on discord sometime after today because I do not feel like talking to people right now.

 

[Finchinator]

BW OU Tiering Survey Results

Competitive: 6.6/10 from qualified, 5.7/10 from general

This is a relatively high number from qualified and while it is not perfect, it is above average given my lengthy experience with tiering surveys (and higher than I personally expected). It also shows a noteworthy gap between how metagame frequents feel relative to the general community. There were a few major outliers in qualified that I kept in the calculation, but essentially 2-3 people ranked the metagame quite lowly and the vast majority of other responses were between 6-8.

Enjoyable: 6.6/10 from qualified, 6.5/10 from general

People tend to enjoy BW OU it seems, but it is still far from perfect of course. It is interesting to see both demographics meet together here far more than the above one. I do not tend to look at this metric as we tier more for a competitive format than an enjoyable one, but it is always refreshing to see anyway.



3.4/5 from qualified, 3.4/5 from general

This means that there is a sizable amount of support to act, but it is far from unanimous and should probably be discussed at greater length.



3.5/5 from qualified, 3.3/5 from general

This means that there is a sizable amount of support to act, but it is far from unanimous and should probably be discussed at greater length.

Honorable mentions from the open-ended question:

• Keldeo is one of the most agreed upon "problems" according to people in comments. Second most mentioned problem, but nobody mentioned being opposed to acting on it
• Reuniclus had a sizable amount of mentions, but not quite as many as Keldeo
• Latios had slightly more mentions than Keldeo, but also a few people who stated vehement opposition to acting on it
• Scald had a handful of mentions, Thundurus-T had a handful of mentions, Excadrill had numerous mentions, Alakazam had multiple mentions, Clefable had multiple mentions, Spikes had multiple mentions, Kyurem-Black had two mentions, Dragonite had a mention, Magic Guard had a mention, and Drizzle had a mention
  • This is just surface level scraping away at things people cited issues with rather than a deeper dive into the analysis provided in some of the lengthier written submissions, which I tried my best to comb through individually today
• Handful of people think if we act on either of Volcarona or Cloyster, we should bring back gems

 

[peng]

discussing next steps

6.6/10 Enjoyment and Competitiveness scores are fine but clearly show margin for improvement.

3.4/5 scores for Cloyster and Volcarona indicate some perception that these Pokemon are problematic - I believe this calls for a proper vote as there is a realistic chance they could hit a majority ban threshold.

re: Latios and Keldeo, if there is some interest in acting on these then also happy to look at this avenue, but I think I speak for a handful of experienced players when I say that I wouldn't want to go near a Latios ban route without having some idea of what that meta could look like, there's a serious chance that Latios removal is hugely destabilising. I would like us to seriously consider a Latios-less Suspect Ladder after SPL- I know this is "not how we do things" for old gen tiering but I guarantee there are plenty experienced people on the fence about Latios, leaning anti-ban due to the sheer size and unpredictability of that change. A 3-4 week ladder or side tournaments won't give definitive evidence on what a post-Latios metagame could look like, but at least encourages people to try building without the big broken thing and gives us some information to work with

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Final point re:council, Finch takes on a disproportionate amount of the council's workload on these topics, especially so after I stepped down earlier in the year - can we please consider finally filling my vacant slot with someone active + passionate about the tier (Shoka, Raiza, Monai if they are interested, hell at this point I would even return). Finch is clearly going to be caught up with SV OU DLC release in the short term and this BW stuff shouldn't be falling in his lap literally every time, it would be a massive shame if we couldn't capitalise on the current interest in BW tiering due to an over-reliance on one overworked council member. We need more people willing to drive things like this forward

 

[Rewer]

Let's vote on Volcarona and Cloyster before SPL please. It's the time of the year when the metagame is most active and relevant and we should do this sooner than later.

 

[Monai]

I agree that a Volc and or Cloy suspect should happen sooner rather than later. I also believe a Latios suspect some time after SPL is worth considering, as many players have expressed how broken it can be. I don't personally believe a ban is for the best, but a vote to put the issue to bed once and for all would be nice.

Raiza and Shoka deserve council!

 

[Dark Eeveon]

Ban cloy/volca and *scald*

 

[Shoka]

Honestly, I didn't see the point of posting any more as the results of the poll and peng's post are very compelling, but I got told this thread needed to be more active in order to get the suspect.

Both Volcarona and Cloyster were voted to be problematic by the qualified poll and the general poll to the point they might hit a majority ban threshold. Not only we need the suspect to happen, but we also should get it before SPL if you want to make this as fair as it can be. Considering we have already been dragging this subject since the start of BW Invitational, the inactivity resulting from SPL 9 weeks (or more) of exhaustion will most likely influence even more the outcome of a suspect.

We just had a poll to know if we had to address these issues, please follow through with a suspect before SPL so we can all finally move on from the subject once for all.

 

[Finchinator]

We are working towards a potential vote on Volcarona and Cloyster.

Nothing is set in stone and this is not a promise, but framework is now being discussed among councilmen and OGC leadership.

 

[ABR]

Will gems be a part of this vote? The last one had those pokemon and gems voted on together because they were deeply related. I think this vote, if it occurs, should follow the same voting format as last time.

 

[Finchinator]

Will gems be a part of this vote? The last one had those pokemon and gems voted on together because they were deeply related. I think this vote, if it occurs, should follow the same voting format as last time.

Gems are not part of our current plans and I think it would make more sense to make an entirely separate thread about them (which I am not opposed to you or someone else doing), but if people feel strongly, I am sure we can keep discussing. Best to just stay openminded and gauge what the informed community feels is best

 

[Excal]

Pls include freeing gems in the vote if the vote is pioneered on killing cornerstones of bw offense

 

[Jisoo]

I agree with ABR and Excal that if Volc and Cloy are up for voting, Gems should be included in the same way as the previous vote. In the old thread, many people that were surveyed agreed that Volcarona and Cloyster are the most broken abusers of those items. I'm not sure if the general opinion on Gems has changed since the ban, but considering the vote was so close, I think that the efficacy of Gems may be lower without these Pokemon to the point that they could be reintroduced.

 

[Raiza]

We are moving forward with a suspect on Volcarona and Cloyster. The council does not feel it is appropriate to include gems in the current vote with the focus of this thread and the survey being specifically on the Pokémon. However, we are very open to a greater discussion after SPL and promise to remain active during that period. Anybody who met the any of the below thresholds is automatically qualified to vote via tour placements.

1) 6+ games or 3+ wins in SPL
2) BW Cup VII top 8
3) Finals of Seasonals/Globals/Majors this year
4) Overall 2023 BW Circuit top 16

The unique list of voters (26) already qualified via the above is:
Jisoo, dice, watashi, Dark Eeveon, GaryTheGengar, Luthier, sensei axew, Monai, mael, Nalorium, Finchinator, Mako, Star, Garay oak, Raiza, 3d, Shoka, zaaya, Feaniix, marsandback, Sergi, Rewer, Quarante8, Rubyblood, Goootzinho, Kristyl

For those of you not on this list, you are welcome to achieve the voting requirements via ladder. You need to create a new alt with the prefix BWVC and achieve both a rating of 1600+ and a GXE of 86+ simultaneously. Please do not continue to ladder on your account after you achieve the reqs, as we may not be able to verify that you achieved them if your rating/GXE ends up going lower.

The deadline for posting your ladder reqs is Sunday, January 7th at 10:00 PM GMT -5. A voting thread will go up shortly after that. Please post your reqs in this thread in the BW subforum: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/volcarona-and-cloyster-suspect-voter-identification.3733123/

 

[Excal]

isn't 86% gxe + having to be 1600+ elo pretty steep for a ladder suspect? even if it's not hard to obtain this gxe when the bw ladder is less active, this is gonna attract a lot of competent players all trying to get reqs at the same time. i know it's supposed to be moderately hard to get reqs but this seems like a needlessly high barrier to entry. and unlike adv which did 85% & 1500+ for sand veil, the bw ladder will be a lot less saturated with general players.

 

[Finchinator]

We are willing to discuss changing the GXE requirement to something like 84% if necessary (and will keep an openmind when proceeding) after a few days of the laddering period -- this is not a promise or guarantee though. Given the current BW ladder environment, we believe that 1600 & 86% is the best after a lengthy discussion with the council and the head of OGC (in fact, we were close to using 1650, but settled on this). We will pay close attention to the situation as things develop.

 

[Shoka]

If anyone has trouble achieving 86% GXE, they probably should not have the right to vote

 

[Dark Eeveon]

1600 + 86% It's very easy to get, just make sure you're not weak to dragmag, a typical low elo team.

 

[ABR]

I laddered for reqs and my opinion is the same as before - I think banning either of these pokemon would be a massive error. If you look at anything recent like circuit playoffs, or even current ladder, the tier is still overall dominated by sand balances. This is not to say that "sand fat needs a nerf", but it's much closer to needing a nerf than any HO mons at the moment. Volc, Cloy, and the mons they frequently go with are picks that can give you the upper hand, but won't really do so consistently. Their presence helps keep the metagame from becoming too stagnant or imbalanced in other forms - this is especially true while gems are banned.

BW can still be very fun, and I would hate to worsen it by removing more offensive options.

 

[Finchinator]

Jisoo, dice, watashi, Dark Eeveon, GaryTheGengar, Luthier, sensei axew, Monai, mael, Nalorium, Finchinator, Mako, Star, Garay oak, Raiza, 3d, Shoka, zaaya, Feaniix, marsandback, Sergi, Rewer, Quarante8, Rubyblood, Goootzinho, Kristyl, ABR, Fakes, Excal, MeEsSm, w_r, IUPLC, LuckOverSkill, Tenebricite, triple axel blaze, peng

Vote is up: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/bw-ou-volcarona-and-cloyster.3734004/ -- please vote when possible, thanks!

 

[peng]

OK so this is a bit late considering the thread has already gone up, but I think a few of us were under the impression we’d be given the chance to rank order of preferences for this suspect, considering how we voted on gems volc cloy last time

Instead, we are given the options only of ban volcarona and ban cloyster, distinctly.

I and others are stuck in a situation where we would only want one of these pokemon banned at this time. I think a ban would be good for the tier but banning both is probably an excessive nerf to a single playstyle.

i would have intended to vote:
Ban volc
Ban cloy
Ban both
Ban neither
… which means, with the ranking option removed, the best way for me to avoid my worst case scencario of “ban neither” i should be voting ban on both cloy and volc, even if that would end up banning both… which i also want to avoid

sorry for not speaking up sooner but i assumed we’d be voting same way as last time. Is there a good reason why this was changed?

Thanks

 

[Finchinator]

OK so this is a bit late considering the thread has already gone up, but I think a few of us were under the impression we’d be given the chance to rank order of preferences for this suspect, considering how we voted on gems volc cloy last time

sorry for not speaking up sooner but i assumed we’d be voting same way as last time. Is there a good reason why this was changed?

This only existed because gems were in the vote, which were a nuclear option that offered a possibility for salvaging both Pokemon at the time while removing a non-Pokemon element. When there are so many permutations and one of them includes an item rather than a Pokemon, there is no choice but to employ this.

There are not ranked choice votes for just two Pokemon in a multi-Pokemon suspect though; for some historical precedent, see here and here. This is essentially condensing two standard suspects into a single vote, but we have long-since abandoned the practice of double suspecting in CG OU areas as the two variables always have some type of overlap, compromising the quality of each vote. I personally was hoping to just vote on one thing up-front (and this is part of why we did things like a survey prior), but there were equal levels of support for both in that and the posts in this thread were all geared towards voting on both, so at a certain point our hands were tied.

With this in mind, there has never been a Pokemon suspect like this where ranked choice voting was applied when it was just two Pokemon and I do not think implying the status quo is the format of last vote as you did is fair considering it is a fundamentally different vote without Gems. In tiering, you do not just rank options between potential bans -- you vote to ban a Pokemon if it is broken or not independently. This vote is pretty linear and the format selected was the only one that tracked.

 

[peng]

Disagree but ok

to anyone not voted: if you would be happy with either volc or cloy gone then in all likelihood you’ll have to vote to ban both, even if you are against double ban in this system. Otherwise volc-leaners and cloy-leaners just cancel eachother out