Rejected Reviewing the SM OU Lando-I Quickban

[Charmflash]

At the start of the seventh generation we had a few quickbans followed by a number of suspect tests. The first two to go were Zygarde 100% and Aegislash. Zygarde 100% is inarguable as it went on to be one of the best Pokemon in the Uber metagame and Aegislash was truly the most consistent menace both defensively and offensively in the tier, practically every person was in agreement that Aegislash was not for SM OU. Then came the third quickban which left some people scratching their heads. Landorus-Incarnate. While if was eventually banned with a 75% supermajority in favor of the ban in XY OU and still similarly powerful in the new generation it was clearly not on the level of the previous two Pokemon. In fact it existed in the previous generation's OU tier for a sizable period of time, and SM OU introduced a fair bit of power creep, especially with Pheromosa and Genesect still running rampant. If we compare the likes for the Aegislash quickban to the Lando-I one we see that it is almost double at 279 likes versus the 160, indicating significantly less support for the move, even at the time.

However, we accepted that Lando-I was probably too much to handle for the metagame at the time, and even those of us who would have preferred a suspect test were ultimately fine with the quickban as it would have probably had the same result. But there is one massive problem.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/landorus-incarnate-is-now-banned-from-ou.3589349/

Both the Pokemon quoted by the ban post to be guaranteed, but for reasons irrelevant counters to Lando-I are now gigantic presences in the SM OU metagame. Having hard counters is a massive blow to Lando-I's viability because it offers very little defensively, and even damages itself through recoil when pressing HP Ice / Knock Off, without access to recovery. We accept Pokemon that are harder to find viable 100% counters for than Lando-I into our metagame, things like Kyurem-B, Mega-Mawile or Charizard X are all kept manageable by their respective weaknesses and I believe Lando-I might be in the same boat. I will list a bunch of Pokemon that are currently employed and do a good job at shutting down Lando-I, a few prominent Pokemon that check Lando-I and force it out, and then I am going to list other flaws Lando-I has matchup-wise and in general. This info will all be sorted into a few tags for readability because the post is massive.

Defensive solutions standalone

-
Mega Latias is a contender for the best Mega in the current metagame and shuts down anything Lando-I might want to go for.
-
HP Ice does a chunk of damage, especially with a -SpD nature which mixed MLatios does like using. However, due to the recoil, lower speed of Lando-I and possibility to not use -SpD MLatios also makes for a solid answer.
-
Same as Mega-Latias, Cresselia is already touted as great role compression defensively and has various means to support teams.
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Only truly fears Rock Slide. Z-Fly, Z-Ice (which is already a decent choice), Assault Vest are all decent dedicated answers. Despite not being able to cover every moveset I want to put it up high since it's presence increased significantly in the SM OU metagame since the ban, and it exasperates Lando-I's 4mss and need for accurate prediction.
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Is another good roadblock for Lando-I. Focus Blast is able to usually 3hko if you land 3 in a row but leech seed / protect leftovers will get in the way and the accuracy on FB isnt fantastic. Heavy Slam is also able to 2hko from full at times

calc

0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 144-169 (45.1 - 52.9%) -- 28.1% chance to 2HKO

and any chip from SR, LO or a hasty nature (to run Rock Slide) will push that to a clean 2hko at all times. Knock Off is another notable way to cripple Celesteela but it's questionable if thats super feasible since Pokemon like Mega-Alakazam also struggle to fit/click Knock Off and Celesteela remains one of their best answers until today.
-
The slug is another Pokemon which was barely usable at the time of the ban due to not being very good into some yet to be banned Pokemon and the popular structures at the time, but enjoys a significant presence nowadays.

EPower calc

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 187-220 (43.8 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

-
SpD Rotom-W is not the only or most popular set but the main point of Rotom is to be an annoyance with it's good move pool and typing, so it is entirely feasible to adjust your EVs to SpD if you need to do so. Its already being used on more offensive teams to have something against things like Ash-Greninja. The best Lando-I could do to this Rotom is failing to 2hko it without SR by hitting two Focus Blasts

calc

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-Wash: 139-165 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

-
Lando-I has some tools to be annoying for Chansey but it will be hard to fit them and Chansey can EV to live 2 Focus Blasts without Eviolite without much stress.

252 physdef calc because nobody knocks, hits 2 focus blasts and gets the 16% chance to kill after both connect

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Chansey: 283-335 (44.1 - 52.2%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO

-
Another decent switch to Lando-I, you can sprinkle a little bit of SpD or Leftovers to live 2 HP Ice or go max pdef for Rock Slide.

calcs

4 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 179-213 (46.6 - 55.4%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 172-203 (44.7 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

-
Not very common right now but his brother is quite popular and Slowking can be as solid a Pokemon if there are enough good mons it checks. Access to Regenerator made me give it it's own shout.
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Without Sludge Wave these Pokemon are all quite good at switchin into Lando-I, especially the former two)
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Without Psychic these Pokemon get annoying for Lando-I, Buzzwole gets a lot of value from just a few SpD ev's and can still be flexible with it's set. Psychic is also a very good midground for Lando-I hitting airborne mons without recoil.
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Some more Pokemon that are solid defensively against Lando-I but either not splashable or good enough to get their own shout.

Offensive solutions standalone

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These Pokemon outspeed and kill in 1 but I will not dwell on them too much since theyve also been mentioned as defensive solutions.
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Faster, kills with Ice. Particularly problematic because you can get picked off with Pursuit.
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You die miserably to Sheer Force boosted modest Psychic from full and now have to deal with Sheer Force MegaZam cant feel too good about that.
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These are just some of the more popular examples, there are many more, but all of them can outspeed and OHKO you with either all of their sets or most of their sets. And if certain sets can not flat out OHKO from full they do after a little bit of chip or the wrong negative defensive nature for Rock Slide.
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These Pokemon can take a hit and kill you back or set up. Lele is AV for this example but can also knock Lando out with choice scarfed Psychic. AV Magearna straight up checks Lando-I or could use Shuca Berry to set up / kill.
- Knock Off
Lando-I is very weak to Knock Off itself because it loses a lot of breaking power without Life Orb. Things like Gliscor, Toxapex, Mega-Sableye or Mega-Scizor might look like things you want to switch into / stay in against but because of Knock they might not be. Especially Pex could bait you in with Shuca Berry when you think you've finally managed to sneak in a good Lando-I attack.

Matchup into the metagame

vs.
Against HO Lando does nothing special to prevent suicide leads from doing their job, matches up very poorly into some Pokemon there like Greninja, Gyarados, Koko, Serp or Hawlucha and isnt of a lot of use once anything has set up either. It at least outspeeds Medicham and other base 100 Pokemon but overall youd rather have something else. Even against webs you dont match up the greatest since a lot of mons outspeed you without them / after a boost (serp, manaphy). And the web setters themselves do great into Lando-I (araquanid, shuckle sets up the whole family and toxics, ribombee galvantula do everything they are supposed to)
vs.
Rain seems like a horrible matchup for Lando-I. If you sleep on the job and rain is up Lando-I isnt getting to attack again ever, but the problem is that even as a lead matchup against Pelipper you are not in a great spot. For one, the best move you can hit Peli with, Rock Slide, fails to put it into SR range and Scald/Uturn can cost you a Pokemon whilst allowing Rain to be set up. Mega-Pert coming in on Rock Slide would be disastrous as well, and there just isnt a single Pokemon on this archetype that you are glad to be facing.
vs.
Stall is not much better than the previous matchups. First of all you cant really break past Chansey. Besides that Mega-Sableye can literally Knock Turn 1 and has a great chance to live subsequent Earth Powers and Recover back to full. You might want to try and bring it in later but Knock Off and Toxic are waiting for you at every corner only for you to be able to Knock Chansey at best, if you even have it.

EPower vs Knock

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye-Mega: 149-177 (49 - 58.2%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye-Mega: 115-136 (37.8 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

vs.
Trick Room is not the most popular playstyle in the world but it is relevant enough, and the amount of hard counters trick room has for Lando-I is just amusing. Uxie, Cress, Bronzong all switch in without problem (you have 1-2 of these) and every offensive Pokemon underspeeds and kills Lando-I in one. Even Heracross tanks like a champ against Psychic-less.
Humble BO / Balance vs.
This is the matchup Lando is thematically the best against but simply using established cores or slamming the best Mega in the tier seems to be pretty damn solid?

+
+
Knock +
+
or or
etc.

A few additional generalized problems

4MSS
People cite EPower, HP Ice, Sludge Wave, Focus Blast, Psychic Knock Off, Rock Slide, Grass Knot as attacking moves alone which is 2 Pokemon sets rather than 1. Besides that Gravity, Rock Polish, Stealth Rock, U-Turn, Calm Mind also get shoutouts which would bring us to a total of 3 full sets and one move. I know a lot of people dont value this argument very highly but thats a lot of moves. For comparison Volcarona is largely okay in the metagame because it can struggle to run HP Ground together with Psychic and GIga Drain.
Prediction-reliant
It is a bit similar to some other mons before it like LO Greninja. You can run extrasensory on Life Orb to 2hko Pex but people stopped doing that because Pex switches once into Ice Beam and youre quite boned. Similarly using Earth Power into Torn for example is pretty damn bad. You've also got to watch out for Knock Off all the time so you cant predict too much or you might start being walled by MegaZor.
Hard to bring in
Lando also struggles to switch into every single Pokemon that is tiered RU or above since all damage sticks and the immunities/resists it has dont mean much as every Ground/Electric/Fighting Pokemon has already adapted to the other bulkier Ground/Flying types. Bug and Poison are barely present as offensive typings but those Pokemon can also hit Lando with neutral STAB or worse.
Weakness to a lot of popular moves
Scald, HP Ice / Ice Beam, Knock off are everywhere and you hate all of them.

Now you might be asking yourself why would we want to bring in another certified powerhouse when SM OU already has so many of them to worry about? Well, more centralization can actually result in less strain on teambuilding because people need to bring the really good Pokemon and the counters/checks to those top tiers. But most importantly we should simply see whether it deserves its banishment or not, because a quickban from a time when the tier was barely formed and it's counters were unreleased/unpopular can hardly be called due process.

Lastly, while I think that the combination of metagame changes, both gamefreak or player induced, make Lando-I deserving of the suspect test it never had I am not necessarily in favour of an unban. I dont pretend to know for certain that Lando-I would be a positive influence to the SM OU metagame but I would like to figure out what a metagame with Lando-I would look like and figure out whether it belongs in OU or not because I have a sneaking suspicion that it does.

 

[z0mOG]

The SM council has discussed Landorus-I previously, as well as included it in both our internal polls AND player-base survey. At no point in time has anyone qualified who was included in these discussions been in favor of a Landorus-I retest. If there is enough positive discussion in this thread, the council could probably reopen discussion on Lando, but otherwise it's pretty off the table. Speaking personally, I agree the process of the quick ban was a mistake -- I do not think the result was a mistake, and therefore do not see a need for tiering action.

 

[Finchinator]

The initial QB was fine and any saying otherwise is revisionist history.

Backstory, but off topic

Mega Latias was not released at the time of the QB, which is a huge shift. Also, SDef Celesteela was not yet used much at all, Cresselia was not yet explored with in OU, and Tornadus-T's set mix was very different than it is now. The SM metagame in its infancy was vastly different than the current one, and we ended up seeing AV Tangrowth or Mantine every other game due to things like Lanorus-I having a stronghold on the format. There was a radar and thousands of lines of internal discusion leading up to the ban. I just had on hell of a nostalgia trip lol, but it was pretty unanimous

If modern players of the current metagame want to look back into it, they should be entitled to do so with the full set of Pokemon now released, the tier settled, and modern methods like playerbase surveys and council best practices in place that did not exist in 2016. I think that is a healthy use of resources and tiering.

I personally find it unlikely that Landorus-I would be balanced in SM OU, but I do not play the tier outside of ST/Masters, so I think it is best to defer to metagame regulars rather than commenting any further firsthand.

 

[Karxrida]

Haven't played this tier in years but U-turn -> Pursuit Tyranitar fucks a lot of counters. I should know, I ran that (with LO on Lando even) during early XY while the genie was somehow still legal. Stupidly effective. (Different meta and all, but the same principle applies.) That combined with the sheer power and versatility lead me to believe that a suspect attempting to unban it would be a waste of time.

Should a suspect still be held for the sake of due process? Probably I guess. Would we lose anything from not doing that and instead maintain the status quo? Probably not.

 

[UltiMario]

I usually avoid these kinds of oldgen discussions because I'm completely out of touch with modern reflections of the meta, but I was playing at top of ladder back in early SM and really wanted to echo the other comments that yeah- at the time Lando-I was completely absurd and had absolutely no place in the tier. I will admit I'll be using "general" examples here since I've become too detached from modern SM OU to be able to give "Specific" examples of how it'd effect current team building, but I did want to back up the general ideas from Finch or whatever about how this ban was extremely justified at the time.

But to put it bluntly: You'd really need to get current SM players on board for this unban, because Lando is miserable to deal with. Yeah, on paper there are some really solid checks. Yes, Ice Beam Mega Latias shuts down Lando in ways no other OU Pokemon has been able to do before or since. But it is jarring how much this Pokemon warps the format around itself due to its ability to make full swathes of Pokemon unviable, and its ridiculous ability to pack just about any obtuse option imaginable. There are so many times you have checks ready for a Lando set just for it to blow past them anyways, and so many times you need to carefully consider your mon and set choices to assure you don't give Lando an opportunity to come in enough to wear down your answers. And as mentioned by others, sometimes you have a fantastic plan for Lando-I... until your check gets chipped and/or Pursuited.

The personal thing I like to tell newer players about Lando-I is "Every single gen that comes out makes Lando-I better, because it's sometimes dozens of new threats you have to consider in teambuilding- and all of them still lose to Lando-I." It completely warps formats and the amount of answers are just never enough, and it just beats everything. It being in your tier automatically stresses team building and adds usually some double-digit percentage of OU games that are decided entirely around how both players dance around Lando-I's existence on one or both player's teams.

I can't argue that SM OU and high skill players in it wouldn't be able to manage this, or that Lando-I would be without a doubt objectively broken in the current format. If anything, it could be possible that SM OU might potentially be the most well-adjusted OU format for Lando-I in Pokemon's history. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't be careful, you need to be really really really sure you'd want this back, because unlike some other oldgen unbans in history, Lando won't just come out of the banlist and slot into the tier, it'll be an extremely dominant force that completely changes teambuilding and the general flow of how SM OU games go. If that's what SM OU players want, then go for it. Otherwise... I'd say proceed with caution.

 

[Star]

This has gone a month with no activity indicating a lack of public support. There’s also no support among the SM OU council for a Lando-I retest, so this is effectively dead in the water. Locking.