★ RU Stage 4: Movin' Too Fast (May shifts, Hawlucha and Polteageist banned, see post #25))

[Feliburn]

​

Following the recent developments of the tier, we've decided to held yet another suspect test. This time, it's everyone's friend: Flamigo.

Flamigo has been one of the strongest and most popular Pokémon since day one. Fighting + Flying is resisted by very few Pokemon and that is further complimented by a high base 115 Attack, Scrappy, high base power moves like Close Combat and Brave Bird, and Terastallization. Flamigo also has a pretty good Speed tier, which lets it outpace other slower offensive Pokémon like Choice Specs Gardevoir, Nasty Plot Rotom-Mow, and Heracross; while Choice Scarf sets can outpace slower Choice Scarf users like Gardevoir and Rotom-Mow. While seeing overall less usage than choiced sets, it is still able to run surprise Swords Dance sets that get free opportunities on common Pokémon such as Copperajah, Arboliva, Brute Bonnet, etc., as they try to switch out on a predicted choiced move, making interactions vs this Pokémon really obnoxious at the early stages of the game. In terms of defensive counterplay, the best answers to Flamigo are Slowbro, Oricorio-Pom-Pom & Altaria. However, these are OHKOd by Swords Dance sets with either a boosting item like Sharp Beak, or Tera types used to target their weaknesses in conjunction with Tera Blast. This isn't mentioning how Choice Band sets still do a lot of damage, and can always U-turn out to a breaker that can abuse this answers, especially vs Slowbro. Choice Scarf sets, while weaker than Choice Banded ones, still have the added bonus of being faster than all the other common Scarf users, while still hitting decently hard, enough to revenge kill them with minimal chip damage.

All this being said, Flamigo can be kept in check to an extent. Outside Krookodile, Flamigo doesn't have great defensive utility and may struggle to find opportunities to switch in safely, and even then Krookodile has seen other moves like Gunk Shot or Stone Edge that hit Flamigo decently hard due to its average defenses. Choice Scarf sets can be dealt with easily by using defensive Pokémon like Slowbro, Mudsdale, Palossand, etc. Flamigo often suffers a massive amount of recoil when using Brave Bird, which can be further compounded by Rocky Helmet chip from common answers like Slowbro and Palossand. Swords Dance and Choice Band sets can be offensively kept in check by Pokémon like Kilowattrel, Weavile, Choice Scarf users, and Indeedee.

Credits to Yourwelcomethanku for helping with the writeup for this suspect.

We'd appreciate if you could post your thoughts below, as it makes it easier for the less knowledgeable players to follow the discussion, and educate themselves. However, keep in mind that - as is standard for the forum - one-liners and posts lacking substance are subject to deletion and, in extreme cases, may lead to infractions.

​

Tagging Kris and Marty to announce it on the RU ladder, thank you both!

minimum games needed

GXE	minimum games
78	50
78.2	49
78.4	48
78.6	47
78.8	46
79	45
79.2	44
79.4	43
79.6	42
79.8	41
80	40
80.2	39
80.4	38
80.6	37
80.8	36
81	35
81.2	34
81.4	33
81.6	32
81.8	31
82	30

Suspect information:

• There will be no draws allowed for any potential qualifiers. If you qualify with draws, your suspect requirements will not count, and you will not be allowed to vote. There is no way to actively enforce ties to prevent abuse, so they will be disallowed. Use stall at your own risk.
• All games must be played on the Pokémon Showdown! RU ladder on a new alt with the following format: "RUF1 (nickname)”. For example, RUF1 Felibro or RUF1 ROFL.
• Do NOT impersonate other people in your ladder alt, do NOT use any usernames which are offensive, flame-baiting, or targeting specific users, and do NOT use usernames which could be interpreted as breaking any of the username rules on Pokémon Showdown! Failure to abide to this will result in you being barred from voting in this suspect, and potential infractions.
• The suspect test will last for two weeks, ending on Saturday, April 22nd. 11pm - 5

/!\ NOTICE /!\ RU will not be tolerating any form of voting manipulation. Any attempt to manipulate votes can result in an infraction, loss of eligibility to vote in the current test, and loss of the Tiering Contributor badge. While we won't necessarily enforce super strict punishment, this won't be tolerated and will be handled accordingly. Voting manipulation can simply be described as attempting to get people to vote a way on the test in inappropriate manners. Bribing with teams to vote a certain way, directly messaging people to vote a certain way, publicly announcing "vote this way" all fall under voting manipulation. For more query, feel free to PM me or EviGaro.

 

[Sneakyplanner]

I'm really unsure what to think about this. I have definitely felt flamigo's chokehold on the teambuilder many times as I throw away that cool idea I was working on and just replace it with Slowbro, but I'm not sure the tier would be better without it. If flamigo is banned, would the other fighting types be good enough to stop Altaria from just sitting on the whole tier? I can say that in my experience, krookodile and Indeedee are just not good enough to fill the "choice item user that is slightly faster than the gardevoir-rotom crowd" niche and personally I don't want rotom-mow to become the best scarfer in a tier that has no ground types that want to switch into it.

With that being said, it looks like Slowbro is leaving for UU at the end of the month if nothing happens to Quaquaval. And if that happens I would support a flamigo quickban.

 

[Denial]

Get rid of Flamigo. Its not fun to have to sit on the builder, notice you dont have a slowbro on your team and just accept you're losing to it. Speed tier seems mediocre but in RU its more than good enough to get multiple opportunities to throw Close Combats. Scrappy making you immune to Intimidate reduces counterplay and not being able to send ghost types to begin with makes having an answer impossible. Tera Fight just 2hkos or straight up 0hkos everything. Its dumb.

but I'm not sure the tier would be better without it. If flamigo is banned, would the other fighting types be good enough to stop Altaria from just sitting on the whole tier? I can say that in my experience, krookodile and Indeedee are just not good enough to fill the "choice item user that is slightly faster than the gardevoir-rotom crowd" niche and personally I don't want rotom-mow to become the best scarfer in a tier that has no ground types that want to switch into it.

When doing suspects, we shouldn't worry about what comes next, but just deal with what we have right now. If any other mon becomes problematic, it can be suspected later. But as of right now, we should just look at Flamigo.

 

[Stories]

To me Flamigo is "broken" but not nearly the biggest issue in the tier. I've already complained extensively about Slowbro's presence in the tier so I won't go into too much detail about it in a thread about Flamigo but I think the Pokemon that can 1v1 all of its "checks" and Regenerator out or force a CM war with opposing Slowbro and whoever wins the CM war wins the game is not healthy in the slightest. I also think the presence of all of these guys makes the tier at least a little bit of a worse place:

Regarding Flamigo, I think Choice Band is the only broken set, and even that has to kill itself to accomplish much. There's a fair amount of offensive checks to Flamigo and while obviously the Choice Band Scrappy Fighting-type will have limited defensive counterplay, Oricorio-Pom-Pom, Slowbro, Altaria, Mudsdale, Bellibolt and others can sponge a hit. Tera Close Combat kinda blurs what is a check and what isn't, but that's a resource that becomes exhausted and it identifies their item. Not sure what I'll vote yet, I think my stance right now is Flamigo is broken (so I will vote ban) but there are bigger fish to fry in the tier atm.

 

[eifo]

I will be voting ban. The counterplay is simply too limited. It is terribly straining in the builder and almost just as bad in practice. Scarf Migo is of course balanced and fine, but CB and SD sets push it over the edge in tandem with tera. Sure, Pom-Pom, Sensu, Bellibolt, and Palossand can sponge a hit, but not multiple. They just get 2HKOd by Tera Fighting CB CC. And no, unfortunately, Belli and Palo cannot tera into poison or fairy after taking the initial CC to avoid the 2HKO. The only mons which do not get 2HKOd by tera CB CC, in the entire tier, are Slowbro and Altaria. Consequently, I find myself feeling forced to use one of the two on every team, lest I be disadvantaged at preview in almost every game. To make matters worse, Slowbro drops to Expert Belt Tera Blast after an SD, while Altaria is 2HKOd by CC after a U-turn and outright 2HKOd by BB. Both of them also drop to Sharp Beak Tera Flying BB after an SD. In other words, Migo has no true counters and it 2HKOs all but two mons in the tier with tera fight CB CC. This, in combination with its great speed tier, makes it too much to handle.

As an aside, I understand why Togkey believes that all of Cetitan, Frosmoth, Revavroom, Cloyster, Pom-Pom, and Sensu are unhealthy. I already wrote a rather extensive essay on why and how such set up mons can be problematic. The essence of my argument is that their access to tera lets them beat many of their would-be checks and counters, which leaves us with a meta in which counterplay is more fleeting and less solid than in past metas, thereby making it difficult to navigate the meta both from a building- and from a playing perspective. Personally I think the most pronounced issues in this tier would be solved by banning tera, as none of the above would be unhealthy without tera. See here for a more detailed post:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...yama-banned-see-post-16.3717200/#post-9537799

calcs

+2 252 Atk Sharp Beak Tera Flying Flamigo Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 388-458 (98.4 - 116.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Expert Belt Tera Electric Flamigo Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 389-461 (98.7 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Flamigo Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 180+ Def Altaria: 148-175 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Flamigo Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 180+ Def Altaria: 222-262 (62.7 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Flamigo Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Oricorio-Pom-Pom: 170-200 (48 - 56.4%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Flamigo Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Oricorio-Sensu: 170-200 (48 - 56.4%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Flamigo Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Palossand: 242-286 (64.7 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Flamigo Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Poison Palossand: 121-143 (32.3 - 38.2%) -- 1.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Flamigo Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bellibolt: 274-324 (64.9 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Flamigo Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Poison Bellibolt: 137-162 (32.4 - 38.3%) -- 98% chance to 3HKO

 

[Stories]

As an aside, I understand why Togkey believes that all of Cetitan, Frosmoth, Revavroom, Cloyster, Pom-Pom, and Sensu are unhealthy. I already wrote a rather extensive essay on why and how such set up mons can be problematic. The essence of my argument is that their access to tera lets them beat many of their would-be checks and counters, which leaves us with a meta in which counterplay is more fleeting and less solid than in past metas, thereby making it difficult to navigate the meta both from a building- and from a playing perspective. Personally I think the most pronounced issues in this tier would be solved by banning tera, as none of the above would be unhealthy without tera. See here for a more detailed post:

Having played OU, RU, and NU all at a competent level and consistently throughout the gen, and even as an avid Tera supporter, RU is definitely plagued by setup sweepers that mostly get way too much mileage from Tera (I think Cetitan and Oricorio's are still dumb without it). I think RU would become quite boring without Tera but it would definitely be a lot more competitive, which is weird because I genuinely think Tera is perfectly fine (or could use Tera preview) in OU and NU. Also as an aside Pom-Pom also avoids a 2HKO from CB Tera Flamigo. I haven't seen SD sets much at all but they seem really potent on paper. Played some more games today and I've been less convinced of Flamigo being broken, teams with double Fighting resists and plenty of offensive checks like Weavile and Bruxish which have gotten a lot more common.

 

[wesh papillon]

Non Mainer who didnt play much before the test here, ladder meta might be super dissonant from tours play but I didnt have any issues with flamingo. I agree with Togkey that it seems like there are bigger fishes to fry. That being said im unsure. I didnt have any issues with flamigo on ladder, but that could be because I didnt play any strong flamigo players. That being said are their tour replays that make flamigo look particularly broken? I would like to see them.

 

[Lime]

Even though I didn't had a lot of issues with flamigo during suspect test but still it's presence forces me to run 2-3 mons just so that I don't lose immediately (slowbro gets 2ohkoed by banded brave bird).

SD sets always force a tera to shut them. It also gets recovery in form of roost which increases its longetivity against the slower teams ( can roost in front of things like blissey, nacl ). It is not a broken mon tho, it is manageable but in my opinion it's very unhealthy for the tier. If slowbro leaves the meta due to rain in uu, it'll push migo over the edge. So I think i'm gonna be voting ban.

 

[xastify]

I just finished reqs so I'll post my thoughts on Flamigo! I will personally be voting no ban because I think that Flamigo is great for the meta game right now in terms of its roles. Flamigo's Choice Band set is undeniably powerful, however I think the recoil drawback and the fact that its being locked into a move is a good balance for it. There are very few physical Choice Scarf options in terms of RU, and I think that banning Flamigo will make the tier miss out on a lot needed roles. For example, I dont think Passimian could fill the roles of Flamigo quite the same because of Flamigo's immunity to Spikes.

I also agree that the numerous set up sweepers are an issue, and Flamigo actually threatens these pokemon from getting free turns to set up by keeping momentum with U-turn or just dealing heavy damage. An example of this is defensive Oricorio taking nearly half from Tera Fighting Flamigo which deters it from setting up to sweep, which is a good thing since Oricorio is lowkey broken so why would you want that for yourself! Flamigo is one of the few pokemon in the tier right now with incredible immediate power, which deters a lot of these teams based around set up from getting momentum. I understand that Flamigo has no real counters, but I think that its drawbacks (which are minor) make it manageable for teams to prepare for. I don't think I've seen a Flamigo ever sweep but it rather cleans games or makes heavy dents to teams. Overall, I think Flamigo is a great addition to the tier and banning it would actually be bad for the meta game. I think its a very fun pokemon to use and it really is just That Girl in this tier.

 

[Feliburn]

Alright, good old post incoming.


I'm part of the train of thought that thinks Flamigo's influence in the tier can be considered an unhealthy one. Teams are built around abusing this breaker, and teams that are ill prepared clearly feel the pressure this mon can apply. I have no doubt that you can build a team that can handle Flamigo if you have 2 of the next listed members: Slowbro, Altaria, a mon that can revenge kill non Choice Scarf sets, an Oricorio Pom-Pom, Bellibolt, Mudsdale, Palossand. I probably missed some, but I feel like this is how people handle Flamigo. While the list is not that large, you'll realize that these mons are on almost every team, be it fat or fast. Now, you could argue that this means the mon is not as broken if you can use all these different playstyles, and I could counter ur argument with most of the stuff said earlier about how hard it is to check even with these and so on.

What I want to talk a bit is how much Flamigo is invalidating other cool options that are probably better for the tier, but are so much worse than and abused by Flamigo that the usage they see is incredibly limited.



These 2 stand out the most to me as options that you could run over Flamigo, but Flamigo's presence in the tier is so grand that there's rarely ever a need to. Passimian's niche over Flamigo is having Knock Off. This makes hazard stack teams more viable, as you can abuse Slowbro if you manage to remove the boots. However, it doesn't have a strong neutral STAB like Flamigo's Brave Bird, and it is slower than the bird so you already have a disadvantage over people using Flamigo. Heracross, on the other hand, serves a different role than Passimian and Flamigo due to the lack of U-turn. It has access to Spikes, it can run Tera Normal Facade sets, Trailblaze sets, etc. Its coverage is also better suited for the common Flamigo answers, as it has Megahorn for Slowbro, and Stone Edge for Altaria/Oricorio. But similar to Passimian, it falls short in terms of speed, so its own competition ends up being its most common answer.

Obviously, what I just said doesn't have any relation to whether Flamigo is broken or not, as there are always mons that do certain roles better than others and that's why we tier the game the way we do. But I do think that the entire metagame is mostly centered around the bird, and how well you can use it and handle it. It's also why other people who are heavily prepared for it have bigger issues against other good mons like Cetitan and hail, or the Quiver Dancers, as there's just so much you can prep for vs those styles while still not losing to the most common hitter in the tier.

HOWEVER, I can also see why Flamigo works as some sort of check to all the other brokens itself. Thanks to Scrappy, you prevent Tera Ghost set up sweepers to do their thing, as you can still hit them while locked into Close Combat. But I also feel like this way of thinking just screams "Use Flamigo and nothing else if you want to win" and that's not really something we should strive for.

In conclusion, I personally believe this mon just strains teambuilding way too much, and it should probably leave.

 

[wai321]

I'm a bit biased on this situation.

Flamigo is a great Pokemon, no doubt, and I have had my fair share of encounters of it, some losses, some wins. It's very speedy and can easily do huge damage to my team if not prepared right. I have a Slowbro on my team, and even with that, I struggle. Maybe it's just me.

I also agree with a lot of people in this thread. Like freak said, my Slowbro gets 2HKO'd by Brave Bird boosted by Band, forcing me to use 2 or 3 mons to deal with it. It outspeeds most of my mons as well (this may be me being stupid), so my Gardevoir can't switch in and expect to deal huge damage to it. Every time I face it, it just uses Brave Bird, and yeah.

Getting to my conclusion, after reading so many replies, I'll have to vote ban if I could. Even though I really like Flamigo outside of competitive battling, it's unhealthy, and I think it should go.

(This is also my first reply so go easy on my reply)

 

[Stories]

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Even besides Tera, Oricorio (both Pom-Pom and Sensu but mostly Pom-Pom) just have way too many options in what they can do. Each unique combination of moves and EV spreads has a whole different assortment of checks, and if you attempt to do any scouting to identify the set, you give breathing room to a Pokemon with the best setup move in the game. Oricorio has the tools to bypass any "check" including Blissey, Naclstack, Copperajah, and Weavile. Not only does this set diversity (Phys def, max speed, dual STAB, Taunt, Sub, various Tera types) put an insane stress on the builder, but in a battle an Oricorio-Pom-Pom is absolutely the scariest Pokemon you could see at team preview, because there is always a set that can 6-0 any team.
We've seen an unprecedented dominance by Oricorio in RUPL, being top 10 in usage overall and boasting a positive win percentage. Just last week it was number 4 in usage, and it's already seen a lot of use this week too. High usage doesn't equate to something being broken or unhealthy but Oricorio is sweeping in so many of these games while leaving the opponent floundering without a suitable response because there just isn't one. Slowbro and Oricorio have me pulling up with Calm Mind Tera Dark Blissey (loses to Taunt Pom-Pom anyway) just so I don't lose to these Pokemon with absurd defensive profiles and unstoppable setup. I really do believe that removing these two Pokemon, especially Oricorio-Pom-Pom will greatly benefit the health of the tier.

 

[Feliburn]

Flamigo has been banned from SV RU!

Feel free to discuss how this affects the meta, and continue the discussion on the birds mentioned above, do any checks for them get enabled now that the bird is gone?

 

[aoemica]

There has been a lot of talk about Oricorios (Pom-Pom/Sensu) being too overwhelming in the tier because of their good offensive and defensive typing, setup potential, and combination of sets that can stop any potential checks. However, I've personally found that these setup mons are scarier in the builder than too strong in real games. I've also noticed that a lot of people seem to believe the Defog set is a waste of a mon when you could be QDing, but the combination of hazard clearer and pivot with good resists in a single slot can be a nice perk. Oricorio Pom-Pom has generally been the better of the two up to this point due to the superior Flamigo-resistant typing, though I would be surprised if Sensu doesn't start to pick up a bit more after the ban. Sensu does have a few nice perks like the Ghost-type immunities (which are now actually relevant with Flamigo gone), and not getting hit as hard by Roost vs Earthquake 50/50s with things like Mudsdale and Copperajah. It's also better at deterring Gardevoir from switching in (offensive Sensu's Revelation Dance has a chance to OHKO with rocks up), which is a common issue that Pom-Pom runs into. However, Pom-Pom still seems like the better of the two today to me.

There's 3 Oricorio sets: Dual-stab Quiver Dance, Taunt Mono-attacker, and Defogger. Dual-stab QD is the strongest offensively and feels the most generally useful, being able to attack with near unresisted neutral coverage and pressure a team the most effectively without being forced to tera. There are lots of defensive mons that can deal with this set well in different ways, especially if it's a bulky variant without much offensive presence. Taunt mono-attacker is the best defensive breaker of the sets and shuts down a lot of more passive counterplay, though it is much more reliant on tera and can be more easily walled with its single-type attack. Defogger is a cool utility set that seems to be a little underrated to me. It has less bulk (way less specially) and fewer resistances than Altaria, but it checks a lot of the same types of things and gets U-turn which is a pretty neat niche for more offensive teams. This set can pair really well with breakers like Abroliva or Heracross that like to come in on some of the common Oricorio switch-ins.

There's a laundry list of mons that can check the Oricorios, though the main issue with all of them is that the right set + tera can beat just about any of them in theory. However, it doesn't get to run 4 tera types + dual stabs + Taunt simultaneously. The 98 Spa is reasonable, but the 75/70/70 defenses are not very impressive and it tends to cause the Oricorios to lean heavily on setting up into resists/passive things in the first place. Pom-Pom having the best resists and only 2 weaknesses here is why it's a decent step above for me. Sensu can't check a lot of things as effectively with the big Dark weaknses. Offensively, there are quite a few things that can check them. Gardevoir is most obvious one, but Trick offensive mons in general can threaten/stop setup. Sometimes just attacking into it again with things that they can normally threaten out like Heracross/Bruxish that have a strong unresisted physical attack on an expected QD can be a good play. Also would like to throw in a general list of common mons that I've found can switch in and do good things vs Oricorios. As I mentioned earlier, a many of these are set-dependent and will lose to the right tera type:
Bellibolt (Acid Spray)
Blissey (CM/Copycat)
Bronzong (CM/Trick)
Copperajah (Whirlwind/Rock Slide)
Cryogonal (Haze/Freeze-Dry or Ice Beam)
Dragalge (Dragon Tail/Haze/Specs can outdps QDs with a poison)
Indeedee (Trick)
Gardevoir (Trick/Stealing QD or Revelation Dance on the switch)
Klefki (Switcheroo Toxic Orb/CM)
Mudsdale (Roar/Stone Edge)
Revavroom (Haze/Toxic/Gunk Shot with a poison)
Rotom/Rotom-Mow (Trick)
Sableye (Encore)
Sylveon (CM/Yawn)
Umbreon (Curse/CM).

The QD Oricorios are the real threats here, Defog variants are cool but not overbearing in the slightest. One thing about the Oricorios is that their coverage is entirely dictated by the Oricorio type and the tera type. While the Revelation Dance can turn into any type, going for a tera can sometimes cause a loss to something that you would have beaten pre-tera. Running different teras (water, ground, steel, and dark are the main ones I've seen) allow you to beat many of the typical offensive or defensive answers. A +1 Oricorio with the right tera type can significantly affect or even win the game with a free setup turn, though the amount of big Oricorio sweeps is not that much in my experience. One thing that tends to hinder its sweeps is the reliance on Hurricane (inconsistent as ever) or Air Slash (flinching is good but the base power leaves a lot to be desired). The Oricorios tend to do well vs priority in RU, with Weavile's Ice Shard being the only real threat of revenging. This can force out or KO some tera types entirely or force a defensive tera to live the attack. While a tera'd Oricorio can easily tank the damage from this and KO the Weavile in return, it can lead the way for something else to take advantage of the new type.

I've seen several people comment on it being overwhelming RUPL and I was interested in seeing just how much work it was doing there. I decided to analyze all of the RUPL replays with Oricorios in them so far.

RUPL Replays + mediocre analysis

week 1
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ru-686837 - Defog Pom-Pom win - Defogged + u-turned, defog didn't matter too much
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ru-685720 - QD Pom-Pom win - Tanked a Flamigo (could been 2hkod), counter-swept later setting up on perish Altaria
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ru-686710 - ?Sensu win - Didn't come in

week 2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ru-687610 - QD Pom-Pom win - Tera steel just won (okay this one was broken)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ru-688199 - ?Pom-Pom win - Tanks Heracross CC, trades with Salazzle as it switches in
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ru-688229 - Defog Pom-Pom win - Defogs multiple layers of hazards multiple times, tanks a kilo tbolt, 2 u-turns then sacked
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ru-687129 - Defog (probably) Pom-Pom loss ?Sensu win - Pom-Pom tanks lead sash Primeape, kills it with u-turn and is sacked to shifted rev, Sensu doesn't come in at all
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ru-687471 - Defog Pom-Pom win - Defogs, tanks a few weak hits, 3 u-turns and sacked to get essential chip on Copperajah
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ru-686934 - QD Pom-Pom loss - QDs, forced out by threat of trick scarf Mismagius, trick is revealed, dies to +2 Cloyster
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ru-687215 - QD Taunt Pom-Pom win - Taunt QD Oricorio loses 1 v 1 to a Sylveon that switched in (no tera involved)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ru-688231 - QD Pom-Pom loss ?Sensu win - Pom-Pom gives Gardevoir a free QD and switches out, Sensu never came in

week 3
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ru-689333 - ?Pom-Pom win QD Pom-Pom loses - Winning Oricorio didn't come in, losing Oricorio got spored, 2hkod by brute (crunch defense drop probably mattered but it wasn't winning the 1v1 anyway)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ru-688944 - ?Pom-Pom win - Sacked to Weavile from full hp
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ru-689136 - QD Taunt Sensu Loss - Taunted 2 times and then failed to beat arboliva 1v1 (though it would have won if played differently with no crits)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ru-689140 - Defog Pom-Pom wins ?Pom-Pom loses - Winning Oricorio came in on muds multiple times, defogged and u-turned 3 times then sacked to weavile, losing Pom-Pom comes in on scarf hera megahorn, roosted once, then ohko'd later by +2 scarf hera (crit might have mattered but didn't matter for game win)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ru-688346 - QD Pom-Pom win - QD and hit 2 hurricanes (1 in sun), killed no mons but wasted many sun turns, bunch of chip damage to multiple mons
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ru-688626 - ?Pom-Pom win - KO'd a Bombirdier at half health, didn't come in again
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ru-688606 - QD Pom-Pom win - Tanked a CB Flamigo BB and roosted back, came in lategame to sweep weakened team
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ru-689106 - ?Pom-Pom win - Threatened out a NP bro from 1 attack and didn't come back in again

week 4
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ru-689458 - QD Pom-Pom loss - Couldn't set up on Cryogonal, had to tera steel to beat cm bronzong, died to mudsdale
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ru-689706 - Defog Pom-Pom loss - Defogged once and U-Turned 4 times but not enough bulk to withstand Heracross.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ru-689703 - ?Pom-Pom win - Didn't come in


N/A Oricorio:
Not coming in but winning anyway - 4

Bad Oricorio showings:
Sacked from full but winning anyway - 1
Failed set ups 1 v 1 - 4
Forced out by trick - 1
Not enough bulk to wall through resists - 1
Gave Gardevoir a QD - 1

Mid-okay Oricorios:
1-1 trade with weakened mons - 2
Threatened out a +2 NP bro - 1

Good Oricorios:
Good defogger + u-turner - 5
Good trades/chip on one/more mons before dying - 2
Full sweeps (broken mon) - 3

Overall w/l:
Revealed Defog Pom-Pom 4w/1l
Revealed QD Pom-Pom 4w/3l
Unrevealed Pom-Pom 6w/1l

Revealed QD Sensu 0w/1l
Unrevealed Sensu 3w/0l


This is not a huge sample size of games, but it represents a good level of play and has a good showing for Oricorios, mostly Pom-Pom. Sensus are apparently a great team mascot that only win if they don't come in. There's some strong sweeps, failed QD setups (with Taunt failing to win a Sylveon CM war 1 v 1), and quite a few good mid-game usages without sweeping or even setting up but getting a few good trades in. Defog Pom-Poms have been doing better than I would have expected, being able to Defog + U-Turn out several times per game. The offensive/QD Pom-Poms have been doing well, but I wouldn't call its presence dominating. With these replays along with my own personal Oricorio experiences, I can understand the desire to suspect and even ban Pom-Pom in particular, but I would personally vote no ban at the moment if it did get suspected. I also don't think Sensu deserves as suspect at all in the current meta.

This thread hasn't seem much love since the Flamigo ban, so would be nice to see some other opinions on these mons as well. Also congrats if you made it all the way down here, I had 0 intention of writing this much until it was far too late.

 

[ishtar]

As one of the most prominent Ori haters in the tier, I thought it’d be reasonable for me to share my take on this mon and reply to some of the earlier comments regarding its impact on the tier.

A couple weeks back I was actually not a huge fan of Ori as I felt like it was too inconsistent, but always felt like it was one of those mons that are insanely threatening on the opposing side of the field. This lines up with the previous post which talks about its reliance on low accuracy moves/propensity to crits, etc. Despite these drawbacks, most of which continue being relevant for this Pokemon in the current meta, theres been a couple developments that have clearly pushed Ori over the edge for me.

I remember having a convo with Evi before my RUPL week 2 game where I simply told her “If I run into Taunt QD Ori Ill just take the L”. Ironically enough, I lost but managed to beat Ori, but I do believe that the lil birb woulda won in a different move order in the game, and Cyan has agreed with me on this. Now ill let people decide how irresponsible it is of me to just decide to take the L vs a set like this, but do be reminded as well that Taunt QD had never showed up in tournament play up to this point, and that its….um, virtually impossible to account for every possible Ori set + Tera combination out there. I do not believe that you can account for every Ori set on the builder without pulling some bullshit out of your ass that worsens the rest of your team simply. Stall and mons like Blissey, Rev, Sylveon, etc. will struggle with Taunt sets, certain Teras such as Steel negate Garde, Klefki as a reliable answer. Naturally other Teras such as Water get past Steels and Muds more easily, Fire has been used, Ground used to be standard, the list goes on and on.

I wanna state that I also agree with the statement that Ori is often more threatening on the builder than it is on the field, but this isn’t a point in its favor for me. Building is at its essence, often, a game of odds and matchups where you acknowledge that you can’t beat everything you face, but still attempt to not lose, be it via offensive pressure or reliable recovery/chip, but this all comes with the context of gameplanning. Ori does not allow for the player to plan reliably, imo. Mostly in an early meta like this where the offensive threats are far and wider than a lot of the defensive options, breakers like Ori abuse almost any answer with ease: Your Taunt Ori answer is pressured hard by X breaker, leaving u susceptible to that specific set, or vice versa. Plus, how many Ori checks do I need on a team? Sure, building teams that pressure most if not all Ori sets isn’t particularly hard, but the mons ability to flip the script on you with the amount of information you get regarding its set at team preview (virtually none) is simply too warping to me:

You simply cannot make an overly educated guess as to what Ori set your opponent is running and its Tera type from team preview, and to me this is an equally big problem regardless of the outcome of the match. A lot of the times you’re hoping you get lucky or you’re not throwing away the one check you have to X set, or X tera, while managing the other 5 Pokemon on the opposing team. Ori does not need to win on its own; it doesn’t even need to come out in order to influence a match greatly. Its sky-high win rate might not show it wrecking every single team in its favor, but its still showing how consistent it can be at pressuring the player on the builder and in the battlefield.

Some common questions Im sure could come up

Aren’t the other Oris just gonna replace Pom-Pom and do the same after?

-Maybe, but tiering isn’t about keeping a broken threat cuz other will replace it anyways. When the time comes, if the other Oris end up being problematic that will be addressed accordingly to the results.

How about the other QDers?

-Personally, I don’t think any of the other QDers have the same level of consistency as Ori, but I would gladly be happy to have those looked at equally if they turn out to become more problematic. Some people already think they are and QD is an inherently broken move imo, so I’m sure many people wouldn’t have an issue taking a look.

Wasnt Pom-Poms usage, and hence, its win rate, boosted by Flamigo in RUPL?

-Yeah, this is definitely a possibility, but I’ve avoided focusing on win rates in this post much since I believe they’re very bad at showcasing the threat level of a Pokemon a lot of the times, instead talking about its effects on the builder and in game. With that being said, I don’t expect Pom-Pom usage to plummet drastically this week, but my guess on that is as good as anyone else’s. Feel free to reply to this to tell me how wrong I was on Sunday!

That’s all I wanted to say, thank you for reading! Wish I could show some replays but with RUPL going around that’s less advisable. Hopefully the next shift as well as the survey manage to give the tier enough of a clear direction as to where to go with this and other threats in the tier. Woof night, bears of the used tier! (Itll get banned anyways uwu.)

 

[Stories]

Also would like to throw in a general list of common mons that I've found can switch in and do good things vs Oricorios. As I mentioned earlier, a many of these are set-dependent and will lose to the right tera type:

This post is formatted incredibly well but I think all your points are completely negated by this bit here; all of these lose to some kind of Oricorio set. Because of this you're required to run multiple of these Pokemon, and keep them all very healthy in order to maintain their status as a feasible check. Not only does this very heavily restrict your options in the teambuilder, but it restricts how you play in a battle because you have to allocate so many of your resources just to keep Oricorio in check, so you end up not being able to deal with something else. Obviously cores that work together to overwhelm shared checks have been a staple in competitive play for decades, but it takes very little for an Oricorio check to suddenly lose or become fodder to the bird. In replays you site in which Oricorio doesn't even hit the field, it's still having a huge effect on the battle, because suddenly players need to ensure that multiple of their special walls are kept in pristine condition which forces super awkward lines of play. You already said that most of the checks you listed can lose to a specific set, but I think this is the biggest issue for Oricorio in the tier. Bellibolt and Poison- and Steel-types get nuked by Tera Ground Revelation Dance, passive walls like Blissey, Sylveon, Umbreon all get Taunted and become setup fodder, Gardevoir is complete setup fodder against Oricorio and not a check at all, it can use Revelation Dance before Gardevoir can move, meaning it becomes Choice-locked into a move it doesn't even have. Anyway I'm not saying much that hasn't been expressed before but I really don't think your points justify keeping these Pokemon in the tier; Oricorio mandates multiple checks on teams, most of which lack reliable recovery and can easily be overwhelmed by common teammates. The unpredictable nature of Oricorio means using your defensive pieces to deal with anything that isn't Oricorio can lose you the entire game.

 

[Swagodile]

Tier changes

Losses:

Kilowattrel to UU
Slowbro to UU

Gains:

Grafaiai
Hawlucha
Iron Thorns
Polteageist

 

[Just_Aaron]

Hawlucha and Polteageist on their way to partner up with Indeedee for that Psychic Terrain abuse:

 

[Oathkeeper]

Hawlucha and Polteageist on their way to partner up with Indeedee for that Psychic Terrain abuse:

That's if they stick around long enough to abuse it. Of the 4 drops we got, I easily say these are the first 2 to go. Hawlucha is a just a faster Flamigo with Unburden, Mold Breaker, and SD while Polteageist is a Shell Smasher with high SpAtk and has Dark-types to feast on (Krook, Weavile) after a Smash with access to Tera unlike in SS RU. Not to mention Strength Sap. Sure, you could make an argument that Iron Thorns has that raw power that makes it scary in a vacuum (i.e. see its present day form Tyranitar lol). Iron Thorns may leave over time, but I think Lucha and Polt will get the hammer first.

 

[Just_Aaron]

That's if they stick around long enough to abuse it. Of the 4 drops we got, I easily say these are the first 2 to go. Hawlucha is a just a faster Flamigo with Unburden, Mold Breaker, and SD while Polteageist is a Shell Smasher with high SpAtk and has Dark-types to feast on (Krook, Weavile) after a Smash with access to Tera unlike in SS RU. Not to mention Strength Sap. Sure, you could make an argument that Iron Thorns has that raw power that makes it scary in a vacuum (i.e. see its present day form Tyranitar lol). Iron Thorns may leave over time, but I think Lucha and Polt will get the hammer first.

Yeah, I know, that was my point, those two are bonkers.
As for Iron Thorns, it doesn't seem too immediately broken, but we'll see.

Grafaiai seems interesting though.

 

[Oathkeeper]

Yeah, I know, that was my point, those two are bonkers.
As for Iron Thorns, it doesn't seem too immediately broken, but we'll see.

Grafaiai seems interesting though.

Yeah Grafaiai seems cool at a glance. All 3 abilities look really nice. Prankster Parting Shot appears to be a nice combo to go with Toxic or Encore. It also has SD which I can see being used with a sweeping set along with Tera Ground. Poison Touch is neat for Jabbing. But, Parting Shot seems to be the "glue" set, but an SD sweeping set is a nice secondary. That Speed tier is just so nice too with 110 getting it up to 350 with Jolly. It'll be nice to use, not so much to face lol. Here comes a huge influx of Mudsdale! Not to mention Thorns checks it too.

 

[Fabi_ODST]

Tier changes

Losses:

Kilowattrel to UU
Slowbro to UU

Gains:

Grafaiai
Hawlucha
Iron Thorns
Polteageist

When we asked for new defoggers this is NOT what we meant ;-;

On a more serious note, with Kilowattrel gone Bellibolt can run soak sets again without being hard walled by the bird. Losing floatzel also means manual rain is basically dead since barraskewda alone is not enough of a justification to run it. We also knew slowbro was going up the moment slowking rose to UU, so that potential suspect test solved itself XD. Now for the interesting one:

Iron Thorns @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Pin Missile
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

Our second paradox drop of the gen, though admittedly with not as many tools as our last drop. Thorns has the potential to be our first DD sweeper that doesn't immediately gets the boot. Pin missile and Earthquake cover all of the most used mons in the tier, while Stone edge acts as a good neutral tool against the rest of the tier. Idk which to choose between tera ground and tera bug. With bug you turn your biggest weakness into a resistance and hi incredibly hard with pin missile, but also become weaker to arcanine and salazzle if you aren't already set up. I wonder if there's potential for electric terrain abuse + choice band (pincurchin is not the WORST mon ever) or for any booster energy shenanigans.

Now I'm just waiting who wins the quickban race between lucha and the teapot XD

 

[TheTraininator]

View attachment 513201
Iron Thorns @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Pin Missile
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

Heads-up: Loaded Dice Iron Thorns pretty much always runs Rock Blast over Stone Edge; it’s just better most of the time with Dice.

 

[Fabi_ODST]

Heads-up: Loaded Dice Iron Thorns pretty much always runs Rock Blast over Stone Edge; it’s just better most of the time with Dice.

I swear I put rock blast on showdown and didn't see it on its movepool for some reason ;-; yeah, that's definitely better on that slot.

Now to avoid making this a one-liner:

non banned lucha (Grafaiai) (M) @ Psychic Seed
Ability: Unburden
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Facade/Acrobatics
- Knock Off
- Gunk Shot
- Swords Dance

So, we apparently got TWO unburden users in one drop, which is really sick. While support sets are probably better, this could act as a neat late game cleaner that hits really hard after a swords dance while also not being completely useless early game thanks to knock off. I'm not sure which one is better between facade and acrobatics yet, but given the popularity of heracross I think the latter is gonna be picked more often.

This mon is honestly kinda neat, with possible sets for all if its abilities. You have this one with unburden, support with prankster and even as a discount Alolan muk with poison touch and AV.

 

[EviGaro]

Hlelo, so the RU Council voted on three drops: Hawlucha, Iron Thorns and Polteageist. The Franklin is away for a bit so he couldn't vote, but his absence did not change the threshold anyway so we proceeded as usual. Here are the votes,

Hawlucha: 8/8 ban
Iron Thorns: 3/8 ban (ban: eifo Floss Mac3, no ban: Beraldo EviGaro Feliburn GoldCat yourwelcomethanku)
Polteageist: 8/8 ban

Hawlucha and Polteageist are thus unanimously banned from SV RU, tagging Marty and Kris to implement, thank you!

With regards to the survey, we have held a vote on some of the most pressing elements as seen by the voters, but well if you didn't hear about a quickban... well you know they didn't happen! Full results will be out in the thread soon, and action will be taken following it and what was agreed in Council discussions.