Resource RU Viability Ranking: ORAS Edition

[Swagodile]

| 27 | Ambipom | 8.18741% | 14604 | 15.868% | 12553 | 17.071% |

| 40 | Cinccino | 5.93173% | 9037 | 9.819% | 6847 | 9.312% |

Now i think someone said Ambipom was COMPLETELY OUTCLASED AND WAS GARBAGE. Cincinno getting less usage gives a lot to talk about. Maybe we should evaluate ranking Cinccino lower.

Ambipom is quite frankly, terrible.

It looks good on paper. Usable attack stat, great speed.

However, in practice, it completely falls apart. Fake Out does nothing except give your opponent a free switch-in to something that's immune/resistant. It is incredibly predictable and one-dimensional as hell.

Cinccino has the same speed, and its attack is only 5 points lower. It also has a better ability and movepool. Use it instead.

 

[Kurona]

Its from the 1630 list not the 0 list btw. Interesting results thoo. 14604 scrubs use Ambipom and 9037 use Cincinno, its like if its usage didnt make sense at all.

I mean if you really want to argue for the ideal of "more people of the opinion = right opinion" then really that's a very big worldwide issue way outside the realms of Pokémon Showdown you should probably want to look into which affects politics, religion, and in general society as a whole.

But the general thing here is that Ambipom has no usable niche in OU and people are only using it because they're not looking past it's positives. A rather interesting parallel to real life I might think, but the bottom line is if you really want to argue for it's viability show the sets used for Ambipom - they're in the usage stats too; just go to moveset then RU - and tell me why they're good.

 

[Ms. Sysbit]

1. "its like if its usage didnt make sense at all."

2. 
   
3. That's what we are trying to tell you. Its the exception.
4. 
   
5. http://puu.sh/foIYB/5bb5d226a4.png
6. 
   
7. That's its 1760 usage, notice it tapers off heavily?
8. 
   
9. And if its so good please show me a match(preferably matches) where it did ANYTHING to a player in top 100 or so in RU or is well known to be good at the tier.
10. 
    
11. The fact of the matter is it looks good on paper and fails horribly in practice but noobs love it so it stays

 

[Magis4Life]

I believe this was mentioned some time ago (and this I'm sure is arguable) but would doublade merit being A-rank? On the one hand, the tier shifts have resulted in a boon for Pangoro and Emboar. On the other hand, however, the rise of gligar to UU and the fact that Virizion is being used more has helped doublade greatly. In addition, it still checks/counters quite a few threats/nuisances in the metagame atm (I'm looking at you subcm cress, SD Abomasnow, Cobalion, Durant, M-Glalie) in addition to being an excellent spinblocker for offensive teams that, like tomb, brings bulk while also sporting quite albeit of power especially after getting a swords dance (which it finds itself quite albeit of opportunities for). I've also seen quite a few merits from its spdef. set on stall (though it loss a bit of use with dragalge and mega sceptile gone). It especially pairs nicely with Pangoro atm, seeing as M-Pidgeot and Gligar especially are gone.

 

[Guidorealmsmc]

Molk can we black list ambipom? It causes shitty arguements every times it's brought up no matter what.

 

[boltsandbombers]

Molk can we black list ambipom? It causes shitty arguements every times it's brought up no matter what.

Can we have a "conclusion reached" section? We all know that Ambipom is not moving out of E rank, and every single time it is brought up in discussing it's literally just everyone bashing on and wasting time explaining to a newer player who doesn't realize why Ambipom is bad.

In the off chance that the viability rankings council decides to remove or add sometime to or from the conclusion reached list, so be it - this doesn't have to be set in stone.

Blacklisting is for pokemon that are not in the tier by usage, and unfortunately we have to rank those 3 pokemon because they're RU by usage. For example, Jolteon is blacklisted in OU because it's outclassed by other electric types.

Just wanted to clarify.

 

[Kurona]

Molk can we black list ambipom? It causes shitty arguements every times it's brought up no matter what.

Unfortunately Ambipom has to be listed because it's still RU by usage. I do consider boltsandbombers 's suggestion of a 'Conclusion Reached' for Ambipom and Shitmonchan to be a good substitute tho.

edit: jesus fucking christ the microsecond ninja

 

[Guidorealmsmc]

I believe this was mentioned some time ago (and this I'm sure is arguable) but would doublade merit being A-rank? On the one hand, the tier shifts have resulted in a boon for Pangoro and Emboar. On the other hand, however, the rise of gligar to UU and the fact that Virizion is being used more has helped doublade greatly. In addition, it still checks/counters quite a few threats/nuisances in the metagame atm (I'm looking at you subcm cress, SD Abomasnow, Cobalion, Durant, M-Glalie) in addition to being an excellent spinblocker for offensive teams that, like tomb, brings bulk while also sporting quite albeit of power especially after getting a swords dance (which it finds itself quite albeit of opportunities for). I've also seen quite a few merits from its spdef. set on stall (though it loss a bit of use with dragalge and mega sceptile gone). It especially pairs nicely with Pangoro atm, seeing as M-Pidgeot and Gligar especially are gone.

Don't forget it walls slurpuff

 

[Don Honchkrorleone]

| 27 | Ambipom | 8.18741% | 14604 | 15.868% | 12553 | 17.071% |

| 40 | Cinccino | 5.93173% | 9037 | 9.819% | 6847 | 9.312% |

Now i think someone said Ambipom was COMPLETELY OUTCLASED AND WAS GARBAGE. Cincinno getting less usage gives a lot to talk about. Maybe we should evaluate ranking Cinccino lower.

Because ladder is garbage and mentally handicapped?

| 43 | Emboar | 5.53040% | 5617 | 6.103% | 4418 | 6.008% |
Emboar is less used than Ambipom!!!! Make it E because it's outclassed by Ambipom yn yn yn

On a more serious note, I propose moving Mega Camerupt moving up to A rank. While on the new shift it lost only was competition for a mega slot, it doesn't really feel it belongs to A- since those days. Mega Camerupt is a very powerful nuke with a huge base 145 SpA and strong moves to abuse with Sheer Force, and most teams lack a significant switch-in that will either die or be severely crippled. In fact, there are no solid switch-ins to this thing bar Cresselia, Slowking, Gastrodon, Jellicent and Mantine (all of which can be beaten by Toxic may camel carry it). It also has 70/100/105 bulk which, while not that impressive, is satisfactory when coupled with its relatively good typing. Camel's weakness are still common, it's slow asf and despite passable bulk it has no recovery. But I think Mega Camerupt is definitely A.

Also maybe Emboar could be moved up since the february shift + Mega Pidgeot/Dragalzhe ban was extremely kind to it. I'll work on the reasoning for this later since I need to sleep now.

 

[aoemica]

B+ -> A- (or higher) Golbat lost its main form of competition in Gligar, and now is the best defensive defogger in the tier. In addition, being able to land a Toxic on Substitute set up mons such as Cresselia behind a sub has long been one of stall and balanced teams' best answers to these threats. With such a large number of great support moves like Taunt, Super Fang, Defog, and Toxic to name a few, it can make great use of Infiltrator. It can also forgo some of its defense, investing in 84 speed in order to outspeed Jolly Pangoro and hit it for around 80% minimum, making it able to effectively deal with 2 S ranked pokemon in the tier. Golbat definitely deserves an A- at the very least.

 

[GlassGlaceon]

| 27 | Ambipom | 8.18741% | 14604 | 15.868% | 12553 | 17.071% |

| 40 | Cinccino | 5.93173% | 9037 | 9.819% | 6847 | 9.312% |

Now i think someone said Ambipom was COMPLETELY OUTCLASED AND WAS GARBAGE. Cincinno getting less usage gives a lot to talk about. Maybe we should evaluate ranking Cinccino lower.

I shall reply in 3 Limericks:

Some scrub said Cinccino ain't good
as he walked into allamas hood
a couple choice words
while polishing turds
Got this poor nerd packing for good.

Some scrub said the monkey ain't bad
When a verdict has always been had
that this thing is trash
and that ur being brash
so please just go cry to ur dad

The usage statistics mean jack
As all ladder scrubs just do crack
cinccino is rad
and ambipoms bad
Now dont steer discussion off track.

 

[phantom]

idk why ppl are hyping golbat this early, i always thought of it as a different, slightly shitty version of gligar that checked some different mons. with gligar leaving, some stealth rock users that were once inhibited by it are likely to skyrocket in usage *cough* rhyperior *cough*, and most of them tend to take a complete dump on golbat anyway... i'm expecting rhyperior to go back to being the best sr user in the tier as it was once before and it just destroys golbat, and that makes for a terrible defog user for obvious reasons. maybe i'm wrong about rhyperior getting as good as it is, but for the time being, i'd wait on moving golbat up.

 

[mallpal]

just playing devil's advocate here, but ambipom has a small niche as a very situational NP sweeper, assuming they don't bother to preserve anything that can revenge it and give it free turns because it's so generally non-threatening (gimmick territory, in other words). it can ohko stuff like cobalion, doublade and drapion after a boost, anything bulkier is going to take some wearing down.

it can pass np boosts too, but togetic is probably better on the whole for that tbh.

tl;dr ambi sucks but it can get surprise kills with gimmick sets b/c no one really expects it to do anything

 

[Expulso]

One thing I'm hyped to see get a lot of use now is Virizion. Despite ironically falling to NU this month, Virizion has only gotten better with the tier shifts. Here's the breakdown:

• Less competition from Mega Sceptile as a offensive physical Grass-type
• Loses an excellent check in Mega Pidgeot
• No longer semi-walled by Gligar (esp. Acrobatics variants), leaving it free to run LO which OHKOs Golbat at +2 and stuff
• Dragalge, an excellent check that basically forced it to run Zen Headbutt, is also gone :p

Some other things that benefitted from these changes:
- Skuntank isn't a free Gligar switch-in, and faces less competition as a defogger
- Drapion is not walled by Gligar, and faces little competition as a Toxic Spikes setter now that Dragalge is gone; also one less thing to absorb them.
- All fighting types got better without Dragalge, Gligar, and Mega Pidgeot; Emboar and Pangoro are really notable examples of this.
- Alomomola is no longer a free Dragalge switch-in, rip :'(
- Electric-types, like Jolteon and Eelektross, appreciate not having to run Ice coverage now that Gligar and Mega Sceptile are gone.

have fun with this awesome meta while it lasts, guys :]

ok I'm going too make some nominations based on this post i recently made in the NP thread, enjoy!

Virizion: B+ ---> A-
As stated above, these shifts helped Virizion immensely. Some of its best answers, Mega Pidgeot, Dragalge, and Gligar, have left the tier, leaving the musketeer room to roam. In addition, its great special bulk and decent defensive typing let it wall most of the Electric-types in the tier, using them as set up bait. Once set up, it is extremely powerful; with a Life Orb, it OHKOs Physically Defensive Golbat at +2 with Stone Edge about 75% of the time! Really, the only things stopping it are physically bulky Psychic-types, such as Cresselia and Reuniclus, and fast revenge killers (esp. flying-types; some scarfers, like Rotom-Mow, can't do shit to it) And while its speed is an issue, I believe that its substantial bulk, great power, and handy coverage help it overcome these flaws; hopefully, people will come to realize its potential soon! :)

Eelektross: B+ ---> A-
Dragalge, Gligar, and Mega Sceptile all held this thing back; now they're gone. It is an extremely reliable check to the many birds in the tier, and is no longer screwed over by Mega Pidgeot's infuriating confusion chance. Now that there is only one really viable Ground-type, Rhyperior, which dies to Giga Drain, Eelektross can spam Volt Switch with impunity. It fits on most playstyles, and can also run alternative sets like SubCoil; however, its sublime effectiveness as a near-perfect pivot makes this worthy of a higher rank, imo.

Emboar: A- ---> A+
They call me "no switch ins". Gligar and Dragalge leaving mean that this has basically no checks. It can tear up all playstyles with impunity (!!!); balance is screwed by Choice Band, as is stall, which also struggles with the mixed wallbreaker set (less viable now, ik, but still threatening; offense is hurt by Choice Scarf, which keeps the "no switch ins" factor while outspeeding most non-Scarfers in the metagame, as well as LO / Expert Belt Sucker Punches. On balance, it can also run the infamous "BigPig" set, checking physical attackers such as Doublade while spreading burns and taking lives with Flare Blitz. Overall, this thing is far too much of s threat to be left in A-. Thanks!

 

[Ms. Sysbit]

I agree with Eel(could even support A rank for it) and Emboar at A+ seems fair what with the variety of sets it can pull off(however choice scarf/band reckless seem to be a bit better than old ones they certainly were good and have surprise factor). However I don't think Virizion is all that good. Ever. Its easily walled by any bulky grass type(Amoongus and Tangrowth jump to mind) which can retaliate back at it. Fletchinder, which I predict will rise in usage this meta, stops it. Golbat can take a hit and retaliate to kill it. Moltres and Braviary are two more mons to just stop it. It can never kill Doublade. Ever. Whimsicott is another mon to handle it. Since it has so much that can stop its offensive prowess(which isn't even that great) and to be honest Cobalion can do its job better and has rocks as well I really don't see a reason to rise it up in viability in a meta where (better) fighting type mons rule the roost. I could even see it losing some viability.

 

[Kevun]

Bronzong -> B

While Bronzong deals with some threatening stuff like Mega Abomasnow and Glalie, I don't think this should be ranked this high anymore. Slow Steel-types have it pretty rough in this meta, since they give openings for the tier's extremely strong Fighting-types (Pangoro, Hitmonlee, and Emboar) to wreck shit, and since they have so little switch-ins, Bronzong often tends to be a liability for teams. At least Registeel and Mega Steelix can distinguish themselves with Curse and the latter's high offensive presence (also much more reliable at dealing with Meloetta, a premier special attacker). Also, most of the important stuff it checks, Mega Abomasnow, Slurpuff, etc, run Pursuit trappers anyway, not to mention that being Pursuit weak is probably worse than being Dugtrio weak right now. I guess it switches into Rhyperior too, and is immune to spikes, but other than that Bronzong really took a hit. B+ might be fine if the drop is too extreme.

Hitmonlee -> A+

People focus so much on Pangoro and Emboar, but this is equally as devoid of switch ins. Stop being scrubs and run Double Edge like real men do. Double-Edge means it 2HKOs all variants of Golbat after SR even w/o knocking off eviolite, Aromatisse after SR, Weezing after just a bit of prior damage, and Amoonguss after SR. Basically everything that wants to switch-in, except for Doublade and Spiritomb, but Houndoom takes a literal shit on both of them, so there's that (and Cresselia but fuck Cresselia). Also, base 87 is really fast for a wallbreaker, so it outpaces pretty much everything it can threaten.

Also, is there going to be a new viability rankings soon? I held off on my thoughts because I thought there was going to be a new vr, but w/e

 

[Toljik]

Another serious, new problem for Bronzong is Mega Camerupt, who actually outspeeds Bronzong running Gyro Ball.

just playing devil's advocate here, but ambipom has a small niche as a very situational NP sweeper, assuming they don't bother to preserve anything that can revenge it and give it free turns because it's so generally non-threatening (gimmick territory, in other words). it can ohko stuff like cobalion, doublade and drapion after a boost, anything bulkier is going to take some wearing down.

it can pass np boosts too, but togetic is probably better on the whole for that tbh.

tl;dr ambi sucks but it can get surprise kills with gimmick sets b/c no one really expects it to do anything

I'm an Ambipom fanboy, but Nasty Plot Ambipom is outclassed by goddamn Persian, who has the same ability and Speed, but 5 extra Special Attack. And physical Ambipom can 2HKO all of them anyway with the right move.

 

[Talpr0ne]

While Ambipom indeed has nice coverage, it's not really a valid argument since Tauros and Cinccino have almost the same coverage while being significantly stronger when using their STAB. The only thing that Ambipom manages to hit harder than Tauros are Registeel and Cobalion with Low Kick(and Rhyperior too, but even Low Kick does ridicoulously low damage to it). Tauros is also a bit bulkier than Ambipom and doesn't take Life Orb recoil. And if that's an argument, it's much cooler, like seriously it's an angry bull with three tails how a dull monkey can even match.

4 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Fire Blast vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 156-185 (50 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 109-130 (34.9 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Return vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Druddigon: 199-234 (56.2 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Druddigon: 227-269 (64.1 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And blacklisting it definitely is an option, I remember Donphan being blacklisted during the dark times when it was OU.

 

[Kurona]

And blacklisting it definitely is an option, I remember Donphan being blacklisted during the dark times when it was OU.

Difference being the OU viability rankings doesn't see a need in ranking everything that's in the tier, whereas the RU and UU viability rankings do. Hence in this situation Conclusion Ranked would make sense.
Please blacklist Claydol tho.

 

[boltsandbombers]

Difference being the OU viability rankings doesn't see a need in ranking everything that's in the tier, whereas the RU and UU viability rankings do. Hence in this situation Conclusion Ranked would make sense.
Please blacklist Claydol tho.

Sorry for the one-liner, but Claydol was already removed :P

Edit: I guess, but idk why people would talk about something that isnt in the tier and isnt on the rankings list.

 

[Kurona]

Sorry for the one-liner, but Claydol was already removed :P

Oh I know; but what I'm saying is create a blacklist similar to what OU has and put Claydol on it so no-one talks about it.

 

[Toljik]

While Ambipom indeed has nice coverage, it's not really a valid argument since Tauros and Cinccino have almost the same coverage while being significantly stronger when using their STAB. The only thing that Ambipom manages to hit harder than Tauros are Registeel and Cobalion with Low Kick(and Rhyperior too, but even Low Kick does ridicoulously low damage to it). Tauros is also a bit bulkier than Ambipom and doesn't take Life Orb recoil. And if that's an argument, it's much cooler, like seriously it's an angry bull with three tails how a dull monkey can even match.

4 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Fire Blast vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 156-185 (50 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 109-130 (34.9 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Return vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Druddigon: 199-234 (56.2 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Druddigon: 227-269 (64.1 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And blacklisting it definitely is an option, I remember Donphan being blacklisted during the dark times when it was OU.

Ambipom can use Beat Up (no, really) to break past Doublade, other ghosts and Cresselia, which is how it managed to stay viable in Gen 5 UU. It can also boost its STAB output with Double Edge, or use Switcharoo to trick Choice items (but not both, due to movepool incompatibilities)

Even ignoring that gimmick, Tauros is dead weight against any Ghost not named Doublade.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Ambipom can use Beat Up (no, really) to break past Doublade and other ghosts, which is how it managed to stay viable in Gen 5 UU.

Even ignoring that gimmick, Tauros is dead weight against any Ghost not named Doublade.

But atleast its not deadweight against anything that has slight physical bulk, Ambipom is

 

[Toljik]

But atleast its not deadweight against anything that has slight physical bulk, Ambipom is

Ambipom's Double Edge and Tauros' Rock Climb are exactly as powerful. One causes recoil, the other misses 15% of the time. Take your pick.

Tauros and Ambipom have different coverage (EdgeQuake vs Dark + Fighting) and roughly similar power.

 

[boltsandbombers]

Stop.
Talking.
About.
Ambipom.

Thanks.