Metagame Shared Power [Under Re-Construction!]

[Haaku.]

So if we ban multiscale and sturdy (which ruins stall making HO dominate even more) then we would also have to ban focus sash as it literally does the same thing as sturdy. Magic Guard is clearly the broken thing that enables these three things to become very good.

Focus Sash is not nearly as good as Sturdy is. With Sturdy, you can actually equip an item like Life Orb and Z Moves in order to boost your damage output. Focus Sash + Sturdy will actually be healthy for the metagame as every Pokemon will have a way to check problematic sweepers like Blaziken.

My opinion may change in the future but I am strongly against banning it for now. I don’t believe Magic Guard is an inherent problem, but the consistency of it and Sturdy/Multiscale makes it an insanely spammable ability. With those abilities banned, it won’t be as mandatory and as dominant as it is right now. Multiscale being banned would also go towards aiding the stall vs stall mirror. It’s still a very toxic matchup, but now stall teams can run a powerful wallbreaker to somewhat threaten these types of teams. Semistall would be a much more dangerous playstyle.

 

[hiei-q]

Personally I'm happy that we're suspecting Multiscale and Sturdy > Magic Guard.
Sure Magic Guard makes the former two as strong as they are so it's a two birds one stone sort of thing, but if Magic Guard is banned those abilities will just be run with Magic Bounce, and no, forcing every team to run Mold Breaker SR does not make that any better. So you'd probably end up banning two abilities anyway.
Despite Magic Guard/Bounce supporting them, it is Multiscale and Sturdy that are actually cancerous to play against, and simply do what they do, where as without them Magic Guard and Bounce would still be strong yet balanced abilities for avoiding chip as well as recoil for the former and Taunt the latter. Banning Magic Bounce has much further repercussions on the meta and dumpsters a lot more balanced builds such as Gale Wings.

I disagree. By banning the strongest abilities in the moment we are only promoving "weaker" abilities like contrary, PH, triage , adaptability, hustle, moxie, etc to become more broken. We are not fixing the meta with that, we are just shifting it.

Forcing a team to use Mold braker and stealth rock is not a bad thing. Teams may also be forced to run unawere, magic bounce, overcoat to feel safe. You may also run a ghost type and a defiant user to avoid rapid spin and defog. Is it bad to force a team to run 4 or 5 abilities in order to have counterplay against the most common strategies? No, it is not bad, that means that you have 1 or 2 slots to create a offensive combo. Letting a team to have the posibility to chain a lot of abilities like no guard, hustle, guts and adaptability without fearing being countered will make that team broken.

Sturdie and multiscale teams only have 2 things to worry after adding a magic guard user: stall and skill link. Then they add a wall breaker and 2 pokemos like doublade/aegislash + durant and they will be more or less fine against those styles, while they have still 1 free slot to add a powerful ability like guts, adaptability, psychic surge, etc. If they need to prepare for things like hail damage or stealth rocks, probably they wont be able to have that free slot, making those teams far weaker.

And no, magic bounce is not magic guard. It has counterplay and teams can abuse the fact that the other team may have a magic bouncer in their favor, as i state in the post that i make suggesting a ban for magic guard.

 

[Jrsmash9]

Focus Sash is not nearly as good as Sturdy is. With Sturdy, you can actually equip an item like Life Orb and Z Moves in order to boost your damage output. Focus Sash + Sturdy will actually be healthy for the metagame as every Pokemon will have a way to check problematic sweepers like Blaziken.

My opinion may change in the future but I am strongly against banning it for now. I don’t believe Magic Guard is an inherent problem, but the consistency of it and Sturdy/Multiscale makes it an insanely spammable ability. With those abilities banned, it won’t be as mandatory and as dominant as it is right now. Multiscale being banned would also go towards aiding the stall vs stall mirror. It’s still a very toxic matchup, but now stall teams can run a powerful wallbreaker to somewhat threaten these types of teams. Semistall would be a much more dangerous playstyle.

Multiscale being banned will make balance/stall terrible and then the meta will turn into whoever goes faster kills. I understand that is what you want and that you want hazards to be bad, however for the best of the metagame magic guard needs to be banned as it would be three bans to one. Magic Bounce can be played around with pinsir/exca/drud compared to magicguard which is just unhealthy for the meta. Stall vs stall is and always will be very long/endless and it is in every metagame from PU-OU. Focus sash is better then sturdy imo, as then you drop life orb and can get adapt which would make you stronger then if you had lifeorb/sturdy. Also you dont have to worry about mold and teravolt when you have a sash.

 

[Haaku.]

Magic Bounce can be played around with pinsir/exca/drud compared to magic guard

Pinsir and Druddigon are nowhere near HALF as good as Excadrill is. The metagame will revolve around Excadrill being on every team for the sole purpose of setting rocks, and this is something I really don’t want. It’s already this way with Dragonite, and banning Multiscale would resolve it more than banning Magic Guard. I don’t agree with this point at all.

for the best of the metagame magic guard needs to be banned as it would be three bans to one.

It doesn’t matter whether it’s three bans or two bans. The optimal result is a balanced metagame, so this doesn’t matter when tiering abilities. Again, Magic Bounce would definitely need to follow suit after a Magic Guard ban because I don’t want the tier to be centralized around one Pokemon like it is right now, and yet again, the proposed ban would solve that.

Stall vs stall is and always will be very long/endless and it is in every metagame from PU-OU.

Stall vs stall is nowhere near as bad in PU-OU as it is in Shared Power. These matchups tend to be unhealthy and toxic to the metagame, and it’s not wrong to want to minimize this effect while keeping these archetypes relevant.

focus sash is better then sturdy imo, as then you drop life orb and can get adapt which would make you stronger then if you had lifeorb/sturdy. Also you dont have to worry about mold and teravolt when you have a sash.

Focus Sash is not better than Sturdy. It takes up your item slot. I can’t state this enough, the power drop from not having Life Orb, Toxic Orb, Choice items, etc is very very noticeable. Furthermore, many teams will rely on Focus Sash users to check dangerous setup Pokemon by surviving a hit and proceeding to KO them back with their STAB moves. I don’t see what’s so unhealthy about that, and if anything, it enables more counterplay to just about any attacker in the metagame, similarly to how Focus Sash Alakazam is a great blanket check to a lot of things in regular play.

 

[x TwirlyPanda x]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7sharedpower-700970102

God, I hate Harvest teams. What was I supposed to do there? I really don’t want to be forced to run BBurst on every team just to counter Harvest (which can easily be stopped with soundproof). Scarf Ditto? Crits with AteSpeed?

Harvest is a plague upon this meta. This was a poorly constructed team and yet it was still unbeatable without using obscure strategies. If they were running Soundproof and Dazzling, I believe there would be to way to kill it once it sets up. Literally you’re just sitting there waiting for them to stop boosting so the match can end. Harvest is literally Solely RNG based. I know that this has been said more times to count, but this ability is just Moody without debuffs.

 

[Laken_]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7sharedpower-700970102

God, I hate Harvest teams. What was I supposed to do there? I really don’t want to be forced to run BBurst on every team just to counter Harvest.

knock off, lol

 

[x TwirlyPanda x]

knock off, lol

Does knock off go through subs? Because there was almost no opportunity to actually hit the Pokemon. Also, many smarter teams will run Sticky Hold.

 

[hiei-q]

Magic bounce has more counterplay that excadril. Also Excadril can be trapped and removed if it becomes centralizing.

Can someone explain me how by removing sturdy, multiscale and skill link a massive snowball of bans would be avoided?

 

[Evan Smith]

why is that literally the same mons as my stall team i've been using for almost a week but with one mon that's different.... you sure you built this?

Yes, it is my team. Similar teams being created separately is not uncommon.

 

[Mac3]

how does skill swap/ gastro acid work?

 

[Zyrax]

I don't agree to the argument that banning Sturdy + Multiscale is better than banning Magic Guard. Yes, people would use Magic Bounce instead, but literally any Mold Breaker with access to Stealth Rock gets rid of that. You only need ONE Pokemon to solve this issue, if we ban Magic Guard. Sure, every Team would be forced to use a Mold Breaker with SR. But there is nothing else we can do.

Remember, that we if we ban Sturdy/ Multiscale instead of Magic Guard, people will just use Focus Sah on their important Pokemons and it will be as annoying. Trust me, in this Metagame, where a lot of Pokemon are 1HKO'ing even most defensive Pokemon, it doesn't really matter how bulky your offensive Pokemon are, they will be 1HKO'ed. But if you sash all of them, while your opponent doesn't, you basically have 12 offensive Pokemons, as your opponent would need 12 moves at least to beat you, whereas you (with having 6 offensive Pokemons) only need 6 offensive Moves to beat your opponent's team. This will result in a Meta where everyone is forced to use Magic Guard Alakazam and Sash every Mon.

If you want you can ban Sturdy and Multiscale. But in my opinion this issue is fully solved as soon as we ban Magic Guard. Whether you want to ban MS/ Sturdy on top of that is up to you, but I sincerely think that Magic Guard should be banned at all cases, as it does way too much for 1 Ability (keeping Sturdy/ Sash up, preventing recoil (Mind Blown), preventing passive damage etc.).

 

[Haaku.]

Okay, okay, since we can all identify that the combination of Sturdy/Multiscale + Magic Guard/Magic Bounce is an issue, let’s weigh the options of banning each element.

Banning Magic Guard (and Magic Bounce)
+ Directly resolves what’s arguably the main part of the problem.
+ Allows hazard stacking to be a legitimate playstyle and helps combat stall.
- Innards Out would be instantly banned as Magic Guard is the only ability keeping it in check.
- Multiscale and Sturdy will see little to no use with the overprevalence of hazards, resulting in two playstyles being effectively removed from the metagame.
- Defensive counterplay would no longer exist for a few things, as things with Sturdy and Magic Guard can no longer check setup sweepers and threaten them.
- Does not help the stall vs stall mirror at all. Stall featuring Poison Heal will be standard.
- If Magic Bounce is not banned, Excadrill becomes essentially the ONLY viable Stealth Rock setter and a centralizing Pokemon in the metagame.

Banning Multiscale and Sturdy
+ Magic Guard and Magic Bounce will continue to be prevalent, although much more manageable now. The meta will have an additional great ability.
+ Allows defensive counterplay to exist in the form of Focus Sash, which is not nearly as good as Sturdy and takes up an important item slot.
+ Would help towards minimizing the toxic impact of stall vs stall by preventing endless switching from becoming as brainless as it currently is.
+ Keeps the meta hazard free and without necessity for Excadrill on every single team. Also removes one of the most centralizing Pokemon in on itself, Dragonite.
- Magic Guard will continue to be an awesome ability, minimizing recoil damage, and keeping Stealth Rock use discouraged.
- Would solve the problem, but not completely eliminate it off the face of the earth.

Evaluating both parts of the problem, it’s clear to me that Magic Guard is not what’s enabling the problem. I am adamant about the metagame becoming far better off with a Multiscale + Sturdy ban than a Magic Guard + Magic Bounce ban. I hope you can all see where I’m coming from now.

 

[rsbound]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7sharedpower-700970102

God, I hate Harvest teams. What was I supposed to do there? I really don’t want to be forced to run BBurst on every team just to counter Harvest (which can easily be stopped with soundproof). Scarf Ditto? Crits with AteSpeed?

Harvest is a plague upon this meta. This was a poorly constructed team and yet it was still unbeatable without using obscure strategies. If they were running Soundproof and Dazzling, I believe there would be to way to kill it once it sets up. Literally you’re just sitting there waiting for them to stop boosting so the match can end. Harvest is literally Solely RNG based. I know that this has been said more times to count, but this ability is just Moody without debuffs.

pressure+unaware+spite completely stops this team
priority spam also stops it from setting up

 

[Sukima]

Couldn't you also just run unnerve which hard shuts it down?

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

After analyzing the meta for a bit more time, I can say with a conclusion that Multiscale + Sturdy ban is a WAY better choice than Magic Guard + Magic Bounce + Innards Out. Reasons below, with 2nd reason being the main reason.

1. You're banning 2 Abilities instead of 3. A meta with fewer bans is always more favorable as too much bans can get new players confusing

2. We are also considering a Skill Link ban. When Skill Link, Mguard and Mbounce goes, the meta will result in centralized around Hazards and removing them. Without hazards, there is simply no counterplay to them as most teams will have Poison Heal as alternative, so passive damage from status is still impossible. You get what I mean? Multiscale and Sturdy ARE STILL centralizing and FORCES YOU to use hazards in every team JUST to have a chance against them, just like people are forced to use Skill Link now.

 

[Jrsmash9]

So why do people think sturdy is better then focus sash when its not? If you go the Multiscale/sturdy route then focus sash will need to be limited to 1 per team or banned. Focus sash is better then sturdy in every way except it doesn't work with megas like beedrill. With a sash you're immune to moldy and are able to get a better power boost from abilities like adapt instead of a life orb. Drudigan and pinsir will have a niche as stealth rock setters if magic guard was to be banned, but would maigc bounce even need to be banned? I dont think so, as there is now counter play and people can run things like roughskin/rockyhelmet.

 

[Mintly]

So why do people think sturdy is better then focus sash when its not?

Because Pokemon who are restricted to a certain item (Like Mega Beedrill) can use Sturdy to make sure it survives a hit, because it cant use focus sash. it clears up an item slot for those who can use a better item over focus sash.

 

[Akumeoy]

So why do people think sturdy is better then focus sash when its not? If you go the Multiscale/sturdy route then focus sash will need to be limited to 1 per team or banned. Focus sash is better then sturdy in every way except it doesn't work with megas like beedrill. With a sash you're immune to moldy and are able to get a better power boost from abilities like adapt instead of a life orb. Drudigan and pinsir will have a niche as stealth rock setters if magic guard was to be banned, but would maigc bounce even need to be banned? I dont think so, as there is now counter play and people can run things like roughskin/rockyhelmet.

The difference is that Sturdy frees up your item slot for the entire team, and sometimes that's more useful than taking up a lot of item slots just to have one Adaptability user. Moreover, I don't think I've seen a decent team that's weak to every Mold Breaker user in general - my team is weak to Scarf Moldy Excadrill, for example, but not Kyurem-Black or Haxorus. In some cases it's just better to just accept that you're weak to X mon instead of restructuring your team. I'm not saying Sash spam isn't a valid strategy (I might actually do that for my next team), I just don't think it's necessarily better than Sturdy.

By the way, for anyone using my Drought+Contrary team from upthread (I know I've seen at least one person doing it), I've since improved on the setup as such:

Hide

Toxic Boost (Houndoom) @ Houndoominite
Ability: Unnerve
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Overheat
- Solar Beam
- Taunt

Guts (Ninetales) @ Life Orb
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overheat
- Solar Beam
- Hypnosis
- Laser Focus

Poison Heal (Alakazam) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def
- Counter
- Focus Blast
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Technician (Magnezone) @ Red Card
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Mirror Coat
- Volt Switch
- Flash Cannon
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Skill Link (Shuckle) @ Aguav Berry
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Sticky Web
- Final Gambit
- Encore

Adaptability (Tapu Lele) @ Life Orb
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Psychic
- Moonblast
- Hidden Power [Fire]

- After speed-boosting abilities were restricted, Ninetales didn't need Z-Hypnosis. This set trades Psychium Z for a Life Orb, and slots in Laser Focus -- an unorthodox move, but it it lets you make use of extra turns granted by opposing Protect (which is otherwise really grating to deal with), and lets you break through stuff like CM Clefable on stall teams. It also helps that Ninetales has a shitty movepool and has nothing better to do.
- Four attacks LO Tapu Lele is an absolute beast, and stall teams just do not have a good time vs. it. Nothing slower than it does either, actually. It uses dual STAB to circumvent Stamina and fat special walls at the same time. Here's a replay of it almost singlehandedly dismantling stall with some good predictions.
- Scarf Alakazam is unexpected, and outspeeds Mega Beedrill and +2 Jolly Cloyster for surprise KOs. It's also necessary once Tapu Lele isn't carrying a Scarf.
- Magnezone could use a better speed tier. The slowest Volt Switch possible isn't really worth minimizing Speed vs. some threats.

By and large, I really do think that special attacking is an underrated strategy, and more people should give it a try.

 

[ItzAdhesive]

How about skill link stench kings rock technician flinch spam

 

[Yikimimiki]

Building a team around Trick Room I got my fanny saved by Shuckle:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7sharedpower-701163152

It combines all of the abilities discussed. And if these get banned, I'll only have Magikarp to troll around .

And BTW, how about banning again Mega Blaziken? Speed Boost + Dazzling + Contrary is pretty unfair given how Mega Blaze can sweep both physically and specially.

 

[rsbound]

my team was unbeaten until about 1440 rating
it is all skill link teams at top 100

 

[SamHPL]

Speed Boost + Dazzling + Contrary

Speed Boost + Contrary is unfair? http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-gen7sharedpower-239030

 

[Feesh Squad]

Speed Boost + Contrary is unfair? http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-gen7sharedpower-239030

Trick Room Mega Blaziken new meta :ok_hand:

 

[Yikimimiki]

Speed Boost + Contrary is unfair? http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-gen7sharedpower-239030

Beast Boost*. It boosts its Atk further + Spd Boost. I got confused with Contrary because I was making a team with Contrary Shuckle & Overheat Blaziken right now, hadn't noticed. Will change it tomorrow.

 

[Haaku.]

Amidst all this discussion, I thought it was a good idea to start a Good Cores project, as cores are very important in Shared Power. I'll just leave the preface here and link it in the OP of the thread. We are currently accepting submissions for good cores!

What makes a good core?
A good core is a group of 2 or 3 Pokemon that synergize well with one another. Their abilities all have an interchangeable benefit. For example, Magic Guard Alakazam helps Tapu Lele with passive damage, and lets it equip a Life Orb much more freely. In turn, Alakazam obtains Psychic Surge, which powers up its Psychic-type attacks and blocks annoying priority that it is otherwise weak to. This is an example of a good core. Be ware of how your Pokemon's abilities interact with one another?

How do I submit a core?
Simple! You make a post here, categorize your core as offensive or defensive, and write a brief explanation on what makes this a good core in Shared Power. Ideally, we don't want similar cores, so if you see that a similar core is already in the archive, it's not a good idea to submit. Anything else is fair game.

That's all! I hope you guys can help me with this project. You may proceed. :)