Metagame Shared Power [Under Re-Construction!]

[Onett]

I don't usually like posting in threads much but, honestly, after lurking and watching this thread and metagame develop for the past 2 weeks I really think things are moving too fast. I understand wanting to take as much advantage of OMotM as possible, but I seriously think it's doing more harm than good to the metagame and its perception as a whole. Especially the past week or so where we've seen several bans, several unbans, several more bans, a lot of backpedaling, and maybe even a little bit of a lack of meta knowledge by both TL's and users.

I don't think it comes from a place of malice, It's refreshing to see people so passionate about a tier and its health, but I honestly think at this point the meta just needs to develop for a solid 2 weeks before even thinking about banning or changing anything more, baring extreme cases like the complex ban not being as effective as it needs to be. The meta is still developing at a rapid rate, and I guarantee there are still strategies that haven't been found or fully tested yet. Especially in a meta with this much building potential behind it. For reference, the last round of bans happened on Monday, it's now Wednesday.

Maybe it's just me, but I really feel like the breaks should be pumped a smidge.

 

[Haaku.]

Just because I want to move fast with the development of the metagame, I’ve put up a new poll! Please let us know what you think about the current chopping block slate! Also have a new announcement...

Check out our new banner! I personally put it together with the art made by the lovely CelestialGalaxies on DeviantArt. Please do check them out!! To get into the current slate, and giving out my opinions on some things:

Magic Bounce
Magic Bounce has already proven to be quite the ability. While it’s not nearly as good as Magic Guard, it still has a similar effect in tandem with Multiscale. While there is a perfectly viable way to circumvent this now that Mold Breaker Stealth Rock is possible, it may still overcentralize these forms of counterplay like it is beginning to do so already. Additionally, the two best Magic Bounce users are both Mega, meaning they have to Mega Evolve as early as possible in order for Magic Bounce to work. This makes Magic Bounce leads extremely common and predictable. Because of how inferior it is to Magic Guard and actually having existing counterplay, my position on this at the moment is that we should not ban it.

Regenerator
Regenerator has been the opposite of a fan favorite in Shared Power. It’s the single greatest factor in what makes a lot of stall teams as great as they are, and banning this would significantly weaken the playstyle. While Regenerator is probably not inherently broken by itself, it’s the main enabler in the “infinite battles” that is caused by mirror matches against stall. I strongly believe stall teams still need to learn how to adjust to their own mirror match, and with the removal of Magic Guard, Pokemon like Magma Storm Heatran are VERY underutilized right now, and I predict stall teams will begin to use this Pokemon. Here’s a fun core I’ve been working on:

Mega Latias and Heatran form a wonderful immunity core that can single handedly destroy stall, and both are bulky enough to fit on the archetype. This core is meant to be used with Mudsdale in order to give Mega Latias more boosts alongside Calm Mind to use Stored Power with. Mega Latias also gives Heatran the Ground immunity it’s always wanted. Heatran can successfully trap and eliminate very problematic Pokemon on stall such as Toxapex. As of right now, my vote is WAIT until the metagame maybe adapts to Regenerator now that Magic Guard is gone. If that can’t happen, then my vote will likely change,

Multiscale
Multiscale continues to be a problematic ability, even with Magic Guard out of the picture. It’s now a little less abusable on hyper offensive teams, but it still continues to dominate and become a glue part of stall teams as well. Banning Multiscale would probably not happen if Magic Bounce is banned. That being said, this should be talked about more.

Fluffy being unbanned has been briefly brought up as a potential option assuming Multiscale and Magic Bounce do get banned, but it doesn’t have much of a chance of happening at the moment. That’s all for now!

I really think things are moving too fast.

It’s always a good thing to be diligent with bans and what may prove banworthy in the future. Obviously nothing will be banned tomorrow or even during the next week, but this is just a poll inviting discussion on elements that have been underdiscussed. This is not for today, but for the future of the meta.

 

[Jrsmash9]

Just gonna say banning regenerator will not help stall v stall at all, as with PH it will still be endless. So even if we for some reason end up banning regen and ph,stall v stall will be like what it is in other metas..very long (like 1000 turns), and the stalls still won't be able to break each other so they will resort to switching.

 

[Gweebis]

It's hard to pinpoint what is harmful to shared power's metagame since abilities can be fine on their own but can be nearly impossible to stop when paired with 2-4 supporting abilities. Poison Heal on its own is a very good ability with status immunity and a recovery rate twice as fast as leftovers, but there are ways to prevent the toxic orb from working (it's not very likely that every mon runs protect) and ways to deal with the mon itself such as having SR for residual damage and leech seed to mitigate the recovery. When you combine Poison Heal with abilities like Marvel Scale, Multiscale, Magic Bounce, and Regenerator, however, that's when your chances of winning become more and more slim. For example, Milotic has great spdef bulk with 95/120 along with water typing, and, with Poison Heal + Marvel Scale, Milotic becomes even more of a tank than before. Milotic also has access to Dragon Tail to remove threats it can't face, Coil to boost its bulk to higher levels and give it some attacking prowess, and Recover to restore damage from a strong hit and work to regain its Multiscale boost with Protect + PH at its side. Regenerator is more or less the cherry on top as, if Milotic is in an unfavorable matchup that it will not survive, it can switch and have another mon take the hit. If its team has Magic Bounce, you'd have to run Excadrill to set up rocks to discourage switches, and, even then, Milotic could just heal the damage on a favorable switch.

Despite all my talk about Milotic, I'm not here to advocate for the ban of it; Milotic just happens to be a pokemon that can abuse the common PH stall setup and push it to a point where battles are almost unwinnable. What I wanted to bring up was the idea of Poison Heal's interaction with these abilities and how it can negatively influence the meta. I don't believe Poison Heal would have to be banned, but its influence should be looked into as its interactions with the other common abilities in this meta is contributing to a harmful metagame; maybe a complex ban would be better as PH can wreak havoc offensively (252 atk Zangoose w/Toxic Boost, Poison Heal, Adaptability, Guts vs 252+ def Toxapex w/Multiscale at full HP = 64% HP damage, unboosted - that's insane!) as well.

I may need to double-check my calculations so I may edit this if they are flawed

 

[TheAeroblast]

Again.

Multiscale + Regenerator + Pressure + Unaware + Poison Heal + Marvel Scale is unbeatable. You can only win, when you have dedicated Counters, but then you lose to everything els ein this Metagame. I told you this before, but instead of reacting, all you did was saying "lolz, get gud".

I came to the Conclusion, that his Metagame just cannot be balanced, no matter how hard you try. You either have to ban a lot, or urban a lot, to make a lot of things happening. Right now, Sturdy and Multiscale are way more annoying, than all the creative Teams we had to face, that worked under Magic Guard. I am heavily for banning Mulstiscale / Regenerator and unbanning Magic Guard. Skill Link + Technician doesn't really hit that much harder than Adaptability + Tough Claws for example or some other combinations involving Guts (where you also have the defensive option with Poison Heal).

After all the time invested into testing, I will just leave this Metagame how it is and return in like 2 weeks to see, if anything changed.

THIS. Stall is broken now where before high powered teams that relied on magic guard could break through even with sturdy and regenerator. This meta really just isn't fun anymore. We don't play metas like this for perfect balance that's what formats like OU and UU are for, we play them because the chaos is fun. I'm not saying don't ban anything, I'm just saying slow your roll and give it some time to develop. And PLEASE bring back magic guard.

 

[PokemonMasterDebater]

I am currently on turn 500 of a Stall vs Stall game, and I discovered that the Heatran that Haaku posted does absolutly nothing against a stall team with another Heatran. Regen needs to be dealt with.

Edit: Thank god it's gonna auto tie at 1000

 

[lhce628]

Why doesn't water shuriken work when i have skill link it only goes 3 times

skill link is banned

 

[Jrsmash9]

I am currently on turn 500 of a Stall vs Stall game, and I discovered that the Heatran that Haaku posted does absolutly nothing against a stall team with another Heatran. Regen needs to be dealt with.

Edit: Thank god it's gonna auto tie at 1000

Stall cant beat stall, and never will be able too even if regen is banned. Heatran is also really bad on stall dont use that, although you might be able to make heatran balance I guess, however flash fire is not the greatest ability to donate to begin with.

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

K. Played a bit after the post ban and I found that Multiscale IS still centralizing. When Skill link is not shareable, you MUST carry Excadrill JUST TO NOT AUTOLOSE TO MULTISCALE TEAMS. And you can't even beat them consistently with Skill Link banned anymore.

Been saying from day 1 Multiscale is a problem and ppl didn't believe me. My judgment never changes, Ban Multiscale.

 

[jeansam]

Plz... Ban Unaware...

 

[Ivy]

There should be an object clause...

It's Item clause, and no, this would just further hamper Guts teams, which are a pretty good source of pure attacking power (although ironically it would also put mostly a stop to poison heal as well). Back when Unburden was a thing, a complex ban to allow only one of each Seed was approved before considering the idea of a pure item clause.

 

[Legendary]

K. Played a bit after the post ban and I found that Multiscale IS still centralizing. When Skill link is not shareable, you MUST carry Excadrill JUST TO NOT AUTOLOSE TO MULTISCALE TEAMS. And you can't even beat them consistently with Skill Link banned anymore.

Been saying from day 1 Multiscale is a problem and ppl didn't believe me. My judgment never changes, Ban Multiscale.

I thought Mutiscale without Magic Guard was bearable because of the best move in the game (Stealth Rock, for those of you who have been living under one) but when you put it that way, Multiscale IS too overcentralizing. I change my vote from not ban to ban Multiscale (if that's possible or it even matters). That's not to mention how much it contributes to making stall nearly unbreakable together with Regenerator. At least one should go.

 

[SamHPL]

Plz... Ban Unaware...

There should be an object clause...

I really don't appreciate these one-liner posts that have come up in the thread. If you have a simple question, ask the OM room and you will get an answer in seconds. These types of posts do nothing but clutter the thread and make it an eyesore for anyone scrolling through pages, so I kindly ask that posts are put some amount of thought into.

 

[jeansam]

Ho Sorry about that...

Here's a multiple line post XD:

Reasons for banning Unaware

• - Unaware is getting very annoying ruinning almost every single statut moves.

• - When you get an opponent who uses Unaware, it becomes only a game of Base stat Who ever has the best ATK/SPA stat will crush you down.

• - it makes a lot of ability useless (Moxie, Intimidate, download, Justified, Contrary, Anger point, BeastBoost, Berserk, Competitive, Defiant, Stamina, Moody, SteadFast, Big Peck, Clear Body, Gooey, Weak armor...)

• - it makes a lot of moves useless (that time I won't make a list because there's way too much move to check and this metagame isn't really based on move usage)

____________________________________________________________________________

Here you go Multiple line comment

 

[Sabrosano]

Sorry, as you might deducted, I almost never post in the smogon forums. I though that an "item" clause could be good due to the repetitive use of items like: Focus sash, choice scarf and yes, the toxic orb, but thinking more deep in how this could affect this meta, make that change it´s (obviously) not the best option, I just hope the meta can get balance.

It's Item clause, and no, this would just further hamper Guts teams, which are a pretty good source of pure attacking power (although ironically it would also put mostly a stop to poison heal as well). Back when Unburden was a thing, a complex ban to allow only one of each Seed was approved before considering the idea of a pure item clause.

 

[Level 1000 Weedle]

Ho Sorry about that...

Here's a multiple line post XD:

Reasons for banning Unaware

• - Unaware is getting very annoying ruinning almost every single statut moves.

• - When you get an opponent who uses Unaware, it becomes only a game of Base stat Who ever has the best ATK/SPA stat will crush you down.

• - it makes a lot of ability useless (Moxie, Intimidate, download, Justified, Contrary, Anger point, BeastBoost, Berserk, Competitive, Defiant, Stamina, Moody, SteadFast, Big Peck, Clear Body, Gooey, Weak armor...)

• - it makes a lot of moves useless (that time I won't make a list because there's way too much move to check and this metagame isn't really based on move usage)

____________________________________________________________________________

Here you go Multiple line comment

Weak Armor is banned. Gooey doesn't get invalidated because it's on your opponent and it's a speed drop, while Unaware only matters for damage. Intimidate is only ignored if you have Unaware on your team. Stamina would be even more broken without Unaware, and Big Pecks prevents lowered stats, so it doesn't get invalidated by Unaware at all except for the fact that if your opponent had Unaware and you had Big Pecks the Big Pecks wouldn't matter. Clear Body is the same. Moody is just completely banned, while Steadfast is another speed related one. Anger Point, Justified, and Berserk aren't even viable, and as for the rest it's good that we have Unaware to check them. Unaware doesn't ruin all status moves, but instead just setup moves. And Shared Power is literally the metagame where abilities matter over stats, and obviously a game is often about who has better stats. That's literally the game. Who has the better moves, coverage, stats, and abilities wins.

 

[TheCoastsOfToast]

I would just like to voice my disappointment in the recent bans and unbans. I thought that the no-Sturdy no-Multiscale meta was finally seeming kind of balanced, even with Magic Guard. Stall was still strong and offense could finally fight without it being impossible or having every mon live a hit.
Since the ban, the meta is entirely Sturdy offense or MultiscaleRegen stall. I am very disappointed and I don't think forcing people to run Mold Breaker Stealth Rock users is at all a sign of a balanced metagame.
Skill Link I'm meh about, don't mind one way or the other, and at least Innards is banned.

 

[Level 1000 Weedle]

I would just like to voice my disappointment in the recent bans and unbans. I thought that the no-Sturdy no-Multiscale meta was finally seeming kind of balanced, even with Magic Guard. Stall was still strong and offense could finally fight without it being impossible or having every mon live a hit.
Since the ban, the meta is entirely Sturdy offense or MultiscaleRegen stall. I am very disappointed and I don't think forcing people to run Mold Breaker Stealth Rock users is at all a sign of a balanced metagame.
Skill Link I'm meh about, don't mind one way or the other, and at least Innards is banned.

Exactly. By banning Multiscale and Sturdy you solved the problem that those abilities created in HO vs HO battles. But now they're basically just as good, and to counter them you have to run a moldy mon. Meanwhile all the other benefits that were provided to HO by Mguard are gone. I believe that going back to banning Multiscale and Sturdy while unbanning Mguard would help the metagame a lot.

 

[Jaajgko]

Isn't study supposed to be banned ? I'm seeing everywhere on the ladder and it's not competitive, annoying af to face and bad. If it's not an update problem please ban because it has 0 reasons to be allowed since it brings nothing but stupid things like Sturdy Kartana and rocks can easily be removed or prevented with Magic Bounce.

 

[Shoopz_Whisper]

So I was thinking getting back into here, but the last ban I saw was the Speed Clause. What's the new bans/unbans currently on the server. Just wanna highlight that so I don't make team that I don't have to use right now. Is it Fluffy unbanned, MGuard banned, Multiscale unbanned, Skill Link banned and MBee Unbanned?

EDIT: I just found it, only new bans are Innards Out, MGuard and Prankster/Sub

 

[Haaku.]

We don't play metas like this for perfect balance that's what formats like OU and UU are for, we play them because the chaos is fun.

I’m just going to address this now because I honestly cannot disagree more with this.

At the beginning of the metagame, a sizable amount of people were complaining about how broken this metagame was and how there was a huge lack of balance. Now that the metagame is beginning to show a semblance of balance, complaining about how “the chaos was fun” and how “it’s up to OU and UU etc to balance their metas” makes no sense at all. We are not heading into a direction of chaos and unbalance and if that’s what you’re hoping for, then you should probably stop playing the tier.

We will continue to try and balance this meta to the best of our ability, and we continue to listen to the community. I understand sometimes it’s best to take it slow, but it’s relatively easy to identify what the metagame can and cannot adapt to. I continue to think Regenerator is unhealthy and should be banned, and it seems impossible for the metagame to adapt to this. While stall vs stall battles seem like they won’t be fixed, banning Regenerator will mean that Stall will basically exist on Poison Heal. Poison Heal seems a lot easier to adapt to in the metagame, for example, with Pokemon like Tapu Fini gaining usage.

 

[Ivy]

Isn't study supposed to be banned ? I'm seeing everywhere on the ladder and it's not competitive, annoying af to face and bad. If it's not an update problem please ban because it has 0 reasons to be allowed since it brings nothing but stupid things like Sturdy Kartana and rocks can easily be removed or prevented with Magic Bounce.

It's not banned anymore due to the lack of Magic Guard preventing various chip effects. You can set entry hazards, run sand/hail, etc. to curtail its effect.

 

[Timotheeee1]

Fun strat:

Komala @ Choice Band
Ability: Comatose
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Sleep Talk
- Last Resort

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7sharedpower-704403135
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7sharedpower-704418258
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7sharedpower-704469170
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7sharedpower-704051456

 

[Jaajgko]

Sturdy isn't broken but has just no reason to stay in the tier since it's just a dumb strategy that makes it even more unhealthy and frustrating to face on the ladder and brings nothing good.

 

[hiei-q]

Sturdy isn't broken but has just no reason to stay in the tier since it's just a dumb strategy that makes it even more unhealthy and frustrating to face on the ladder and brings nothing good.

Without sturdy every pokemon without a great bulk would need to carry focus sash to survive a hit. That is the reason why sturdy exists.