Shedinja [QC 2/3]

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QC: p2 PK Gaming

[OVERVIEW]

* Shedinja completely walls many common threats like Pheromosa, Keldeo, Xurkitree, choice-locked Lando-T and Genesect.
* It can also wall Pokemon like Tapu Bulu lacking Stone Edge/Leech Seed, Tapu Koko lacking Brave Bird, Tapu Fini/Latios lacking HP Fire, Kartana lacking Night Slash and Toxapex running Toxic Spikes over Toxic.
* While Shedinja walls a lot of Pokemon, it doesn't do much to them in return, hence it is almost exclusively used on Stall. Other drawbacks are its glaring weakness to common offensive types like Fire and Dark, or the Ghost coverage often seen on Psychic pokemon.
* Using Shedinja also requires the player to have good knowledge about the metagame and common movesets because every mispredicted switches or coverage move result in it dying.
* Because of how specialized Shedinja is, it requires a rather formulaic team composition, which leaves not much space for variation, so teams can be rather predictable.


[SET]
name: Wonderwall
move 1: Baton Pass
move 2: Protect
move 3: Shadow Sneak
move 4: Will-o-Wisp
item: Focus Sash
ability: Wonder Guard
nature: Lonely
evs: 252 Atk / 156 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

* Baton Pass lets you either switch out of a Pokemon that can threaten Shed, or slow-BP out of a Pokemon that you only have a CHECK for, opposed to a counter.
* Protect lets you stall Status turns, scout for coverage moves or abuse choiced Pokemon.
* Shadow Sneak is used both as a reliable priority move, to finish off weakened foes, and to hit enemies using Ditto against you.
* Will-o-Wisp cripples physical switchins and Pokemon immune to Toxic (which is a common status on the Stall teams Shedinja is used on).


Set Details
========

* Focus Sash can be used to take a hit in a pinch or save you if you mispredict enemy coverage moves. It also allows for free turns against certain dangerous mons.* Max attack investment makes sure Shedinja hits the things it walls, or the switchins (if status is already up/not needed) as hard as possible.
* 0 IVs in HP, Def and SpD are used for two reasons:

a) Everything that CAN hit it, will OHKO Shedinja, so it's not possible to increase bulk in any way.


b) Instead of just leaving IVs on default, reducing them like this ensures you will always win the 1v1 vs an enemy using Ditto against you (as long as Sash is still intact).
* IMPORTANT: Speed EVs should be reduced to be ONE point slower than that of threats your team has only checks but no counters for. This ensures you are able to slow-Baton Pass out of them into your check without it having to take a hit by hard-switching. Since this is completely team-dependant, there can be no "default" EV value given here; the suggested 156 Speed EVs are a good showcase on how to use this, making Shedinja 1 point slower than Clefable, letting you PP stall it by Baton Passing onto Dugtrio, which is one of Shedinja's prime teammates. This strategy also leaves you with guaranteed switch initiative once your opponent eventually switches.
* Since there is no use for the remaining EVs, they are left out. Putting them anywhere else will either not make a difference (HP), or make Shedinja perform worse (Def e.g.).


Usage Tips
========

* Switch it into Pokemon that can't touch it to completely stop momentum of the enemy team.
* Proceed to cripple switchins with status, or finish off low enemies with priority.
* Always be on the watch for Pursuit trappers, Hazards and Sand or Hail Setters, because those will kill Shedinja right away.
* If you are unsure of an enemy Pokemon running a coverage move that could harm Shed, scout for it with other Pokemon, or, if you bring it in via a Double Switch, with Protect.

Team Options
========

* Massive Hazard Control is needed because it dies if it switches in on hazards. Mega Sableye for Magic Bounce and 1-2 Defoggers like Skarmory, Zapdos, Mantine and Mandibuzz are mandatory.
* Status Sponges like Magic Guard Clef or Chansey are equally important, because just like Hazards, Shed dies to any residual damage from Toxic or Burn.
* Unaware Pokemon like Cleable or Quagsire are a good option, since a Pokemon that forces Shed out can use the free turn for a boosting move.
* Dugtrio is a premium partner because it lets you PP stall Clefable by slow Baton Passing onto it, and trapping Pokemon like Heatran that are troublesome for many Stall builds is invaluable.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============

* X-Scissor can be used over Shadow Sneak for more damage, but priority is usually preferred to net kills on weakened mons that can outspeed you, and it also doesn't hit Ditto.
* Swords Dance is an option over Baton Pass (SD and BP are illegal together), if you have other means of dealing with Clefable and don't need to slow BP to check threats.
* Toxic over WoW can be used if you ABSOLUTELY need a Toxic spreader on your team, but WoW is usually preferred because the Dark types like Bisharp that come in on Shedinja are more crippled by Burn than Toxic (if it affects them at all).
* Safety Goggles are an option if Hail and Sand teams are popular, because as long as the weather is active, Shedinja can't switch into any of the Pokemon it would usually wall. The only other way to remedy this would be to run a second check for everything Shedinja walls, and that would make Shedinja itself redundant.

Checks and Counters
===================

**Hail or Sand Setters**: As mentioned above, the residual damage from volatile weather will kill Shedinja if it stays in for a turn.

**Pursuit Trappers**: Not switching out the turn a Pursuit-trapper comes in, will result in Shedinja eventually dying on the switch.

**Toxic/Burn/Leech Seed users**: Just like weather, those status moves will OHKO Shedinja unless you click Baton Pass on the same turn; and even then, you need to use a Cleric to get rid of the Status before using Shedinja again.

**Entry Hazards**: Same concept as weather and status.
 
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Martin

A monoid in the category of endofunctors
is a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Reduce speed to 156 to under-speed Clefable by 1 point--allowing you to PP stall it with Dugtrio. I don't really think there is any merit in running any more speed than this and shed builds are one dimensional to the point that most team specific reasons won't ever really apply. Add Dugtrio to the top of team options 'cause the pp-stalling core it forms with Dugtrio is p. much this thing's biggest niche. Also I am p. sure that SD is incompatible with BP so remove any rogue mentions of that (just skimmed and saw one in TO)
 
Reduce speed to 156 to under-speed Clefable by 1 point--allowing you to PP stall it with Dugtrio. I don't really think there is any merit in running any more speed than this and shed builds are one dimensional to the point that most team specific reasons won't ever really apply. Add Dugtrio to the top of team options 'cause the pp-stalling core it forms with Dugtrio is p. much this thing's biggest niche. Also I am p. sure that SD is incompatible with BP so remove any rogue mentions of that (just skimmed and saw one in TO)
How the hell did I miss the BP/SD thing... I should grab coffee before writing if I didn't sleep ^^ Thanks a lot!

The 156 for Clef were the "original" reason I added the paragraph about Speed EVs, yeah. I still think the option of speed creeping other threats should be in the analysis. I'll add the Clef-specific part as an example though. Will also add Duggy on team options
 

Martin

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Also while I am still thinking about it I'd bump Goggles and Toxic down to OO. Being able to bust your sash on a KOff and burn the user is a huge utility to the point that it is really hard to justify sacrificing it, and Tar traps you anyway while the teams can typically stall out sand turns reasonably easily, making it mostly pretty redundant in comparison to Sash.
 
Also while I am still thinking about it I'd bump Goggles and Toxic down to OO. Being able to bust your sash on a KOff and burn the user is a huge utility to the point that it is really hard to justify sacrificing it, and Tar traps you anyway while the teams can typically stall out sand turns reasonably easily, making it mostly pretty redundant in comparison to Sash.

Fair point. The analysis just looked so... empty... without at least SOME options. But then again, as you mentioned earlier, Shed is rather one-dimensional, so might as well move it down, yeah.
 
Moved down Safety Goggles from a slash in the main set to OO, highlighted in BLUE . Decided to leave Toxic as a Slash because some team compositions have an overflow of WoW users.
 

Martin

A monoid in the category of endofunctors
is a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
The reason that I think Wisp should be exclusive and Toxic in OO is because without it it has literally no way of threatening Dark-types that force it out, and given that most of them are very wisp-weak (especially in the case of something like Bisharp or Mega Gyarados which pressure defensive teams a lot is weakened by virtue of how stupidly dangerous +2 KOff and +1 Mold Breaker STAB attacks are) it is super important to not be complete bait for them.

Also u don't need to colour-code every change lol
 
The reason that I think Wisp should be exclusive and Toxic in OO is because without it it has literally no way of threatening Dark-types that force it out, and given that most of them are very wisp-weak (especially in the case of something like Bisharp or Mega Gyarados which pressure defensive teams a lot is weakened by virtue of how stupidly dangerous +2 KOff and +1 Mold Breaker STAB attacks are) it is super important to not be complete bait for them.

Also u don't need to colour-code every change lol
haha, I know, the color codes are just for me personally to keep track :P If they're disturbing I can get rid of them again though.

But yeah, for what it's worth, I agree with you about WoW, don't worry. The original analysis is just looking thinner and thinner x) I'll edit it anyways, I trust in your experience on what's needed here, and if the QC team wants it back up as a main slash, they can still let me know.

Edit: Done
 
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Moved down Toxic from being a slash in the main set to OO and added a note to it in GREEN after Martin's 3rd post
 

HailFall

my cancer is sun and my leo is moon
strongly disagree with moving goggles all the way down to oo. sash is convenient but without goggles shed is literally useless vs teams with sand. like useless. it can do absolutely nothing and whatever breakers shed needs to check have free turns to come in and wreak havoc. its the only semi consistent item choice. with sash youre handing the wheel to rngesus
 
strongly disagree with moving goggles all the way down to oo. sash is convenient but without goggles shed is literally useless vs teams with sand. like useless. it can do absolutely nothing and whatever breakers shed needs to check have free turns to come in and wreak havoc. its the only semi consistent item choice. with sash youre handing the wheel to rngesus
Yeah that was my initial reasoning too, I just "surrendered to experience" x) but should the QC team decide to leave the decision to me, I'd move it up again too
 

Martin

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Goggles barely even improves the sand matchup much though. Like, last time I checked Shedinja is both slower than Tyranitar (meaning it can't BP out safely) and weak to Pursuit (meaning it can't escape for free), and also last time I checked Shed teams were designed with a big consideration to both a) eliminati sand 'mons that cause Shedinja trouble (for instance, Dugtrio traps and eliminates two of the three available fully-evolved Sand Streamers--Tyranitar and Gigalith (Giga's p. irrelevant, as is Hippo, so basically "sand setter" means Tar in the vast majority of cases)--as well as OHKOing Alolan Ninetales after rocks with SEdge) and b) being able to very easily stall it out once said 'mon has been eliminated due to both the team having actual defensive synergy and the fact that sand is only 5 or 8 turns from start to finish--two of which are burned when KOing Tar with Duggy. Additionally, running it over sash just leaves you completely open to other Dark-types, which sacrifices a large amount of utility considering a big part of Sash's appeal comes from a free cripple button vs. them in the form busting your Sash to get off a wisp--which is about as consistent as you can get with this 'mon. Like, idk where you got the idea that Goggles was "the only semi consistent item choice" because that's simply not true.
 

HailFall

my cancer is sun and my leo is moon
youre not sending shed into ttar ._. youre making it so you dont flat out lose to a keldeo or something the second they have a ttar or hippo
 
Martin the major issue here is not the direct matchup of Shed vs Weather Setter, but it's the fact that you might be forced into Shedinja if it's your only counter to a specific TEAMMATE of the setter. So as long as the weather condition is up, you have to use subpar Pokemon to check a threat that you would normally have Shedinja for. In the worst case scenario you might not even HAVE another check for those, so what then?

Take Pheromosa as an example. With M-Sab, AT LEAST one defogger, a cleric/unaware wall and Duggy being staples on Shed Stall, you don't have much space left to include Toxapex too. So how do you check Phero while Sand or Hail are up?
 

Martin

A monoid in the category of endofunctors
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Mega Sab can take Lunge from it and proceed to stall an extra turn with Fake Out, allowing Shedinja to come out on the following turn if it's not carrying Smooth Rock (an item which is limited to it's least splashable set). Like, this stuff is a minor inconvenience at best even before you consider that you can compress multiple roles into one slot. Or what about Togekiss and Zapdos, who fear nowt but Ice Beam/jab in the case of togie and compress Defog (and cleric in the case of togie) into one slot, or unaware Clef who acts as a cleric, an unaware user and is only really fazed by PJab? Whether you can check these things under sand or not doesn't change the inherent matchup reliance of shed stall (not to mention how horrifically situational the scenario where it would actually come in useful is), it just directs it in a different direction in exchange for sacrificing something with far more consistent utility.
 
Mega Sab can take Lunge from it and proceed to stall an extra turn with Fake Out, allowing Shedinja to come out on the following turn if it's not carrying Smooth Rock (an item which is limited to it's least splashable set). Like, this stuff is a minor inconvenience at best even before you consider that you can compress multiple roles into one slot. Or what about Togekiss and Zapdos, who fear nowt but Ice Beam/jab in the case of togie and compress Defog (and cleric in the case of togie) into one slot, or unaware Clef who acts as a cleric, an unaware user and is only really fazed by PJab? Whether you can check these things under sand or not doesn't change the inherent matchup reliance of shed stall (not to mention how horrifically situational the scenario where it would actually come in useful is), it just directs it in a different direction in exchange for sacrificing something with far more consistent utility.
I see your point, and don't get me wrong, Sash is still the go-to item 90% of the time. But you never know how the meta evolves. Maybe with all the electric spam going on right now, Sand will become a MAJOR factor soon? Then Safety Goggles at least deserves a slash imo.

Also about some of the things you said:
- Sab usually runs Protect over Fake Out atm, because of how popular Lele is, and how big of a threat it is for any Stall build (I know it still stalls a turn, but I wanted to mention it anyways :P )
- With only 4 SpA EVs Ice Beam is still a 2HKO on Zapdos
- Poison Jab is its main coverage option right now afaik

---

The more I think about it and the more I re-read our discussion here, I'm pretty sure I should add it back to the main set as a Slash. It will never become the preferred item unless Hail or Sand usage go through the roof, but still, having it in the same category as something like X-Scissor doesn't do it Justice imo
 
I moved Safety Goggles back to being a slash on the main set after our discussion here and thoughtful consideration. The changes are made in PINK
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned deucer.
An option I used in the past over X-scissor/toxic was snuggle bug, base 50 power special attacking move, I liked it for avoiding rocky helmet users while lowering their special attack should I have spread enough burns/statusing won't help.

And in their current gen we burn more to slow the damage output than the chip other teammates enjoy a safer switch in on moonblast/stealth rocks clefable like say mega sableye.

Very niche but it's the safest option shednija has outside of bisharp vs switch ins
 

p2

Banned deucer.
overview
kinda go into cons of shedinja, theres not any actual mentions that it's extremely vulnerable to passive damage from anything as well as being weak to pursuit which is a big pain for it.

- Completely walls many common threats like Pheromosa, A-Raichu, etc.
- Also walls Pokemon like Tapu Bulu, Tapu Koko, Tapu Fini, Kartana, Golisopod, Toxapex, ... unless they run (rather rare) coverage moves, making it a perfect pivot

Drop raichu-a from here, it's pretty bad, bulu also runs stone edge sometimes so i'd remove that too, as well as golisopod (unviable) and toxapex (just uses toxic). some more fitting threats would be choice-locked genesect, latios lacking hp fire, choice locked lando-t, keldeo and xurkitree

- While it walls a lot, it doesn't actually do much in return, hence it is almost exclusively used on Stall
should probably mention that the archetypes you find it on are also extremely similar as it only works well if you use m-sab + 1 or more defoggers

the rest seems fine, shed is pretty straight forward, but safety goggles should be in other options, not good enough to justify using on the main set but it has its uses

1/3
 
I'd like to mention Protective Pads can keep Shedinja from getting killed by Rocky Helmet & Iron Barbs without using its pathetic Sp. Atk
 
overview
kinda go into cons of shedinja, theres not any actual mentions that it's extremely vulnerable to passive damage from anything as well as being weak to pursuit which is a big pain for it.

- Completely walls many common threats like Pheromosa, A-Raichu, etc.
- Also walls Pokemon like Tapu Bulu, Tapu Koko, Tapu Fini, Kartana, Golisopod, Toxapex, ... unless they run (rather rare) coverage moves, making it a perfect pivot

Drop raichu-a from here, it's pretty bad, bulu also runs stone edge sometimes so i'd remove that too, as well as golisopod (unviable) and toxapex (just uses toxic). some more fitting threats would be choice-locked genesect, latios lacking hp fire, choice locked lando-t, keldeo and xurkitree

- While it walls a lot, it doesn't actually do much in return, hence it is almost exclusively used on Stall
should probably mention that the archetypes you find it on are also extremely similar as it only works well if you use m-sab + 1 or more defoggers

the rest seems fine, shed is pretty straight forward, but safety goggles should be in other options, not good enough to justify using on the main set but it has its uses

1/3
Edited the things you mentioned except for the removal of Bulu and Toxapex. Instead, I added the coverage move that would make them UNwallable for Shedinja in the Overview.

Also no idea why I forgot adding back Safety Goggles to OO after I even said I would do it in my last post ^^ Added it again, thanks for the hint + QC!
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned deucer.
I'd like to mention Protective Pads can keep Shedinja from getting killed by Rocky Helmet & Iron Barbs without using its pathetic Sp. Atk
That only covers that and simply costs to much for an item slot, sometimes I do an attacknow just to make sure my team can wall/revenge it.

Shadow sneak is really weak other than when it's super effective.

Snuggle bug just covers a bunch of options, I really enjoy being able to switch into a moonblast as mega sableye weakened on chance they were going to t-wave/rocks instead. Only down side is moves lot cost
 
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