potentially, let's see how this metagame plays first.Alright, so now that Megagross is banned, what does that mean for Kartana? Everyone was so worried about both of them and we didn't know who the culprit was. We gave Metagross the trial first and it was deemed banworthy, so shouldn't we revisit Kartana?
By the way, welcome back Mega Scizor
Mega Metagross: Ban (5/7 voted ban, other 2 voted to suspect)
None of these KOs are possible with any of Volcarona's other moves at +1, and all of these threats are able to KO or cripple Volcarona if not dispatched. Yes, you must sacrifice Lum Berry or other items to run a Z-stone, which can limit what you can safely set up on. But the above calcs demonstrate the value of such an absurdly strong nuke attack in removing typical checks and securing sweeps.+1 252+ SpA Volcarona Inferno Overdrive vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados in Sun: 382-450 (115.4 - 135.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Volcarona Inferno Overdrive vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp in Sun: 438-516 (105 - 123.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Volcarona Inferno Overdrive vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dragonite in Sun: 276-324 (71.5 - 83.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Volcarona Inferno Overdrive vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Toxapex in Sun: 282-333 (92.7 - 109.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Volcarona Inferno Overdrive vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nihilego in Sun: 303-357 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Volcarona Inferno Overdrive vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-X in Sun: 219-258 (73.7 - 86.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Volcarona Inferno Overdrive vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y in Sun: 339-399 (114.1 - 134.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Volcarona Inferno Overdrive vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Marowak-Alola in Sun: 318-375 (98.1 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Volcarona Inferno Overdrive vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini in Sun: 306-360 (88.9 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
As a bug main, I find that set VERY useful for checking dangerous sets on dark and water. Let me show you what I use, and please note that this will be bug I am referring to.Yeah the Baton Pass ban seems a bit out of left-field.
I assume the decision was made more to adhere to Smogon's precedents than to balance the metagame, since there aren't any really pervasive abusers in monotype. In fact the only time I've seen Baton Pass in the last two months was that SDPass-Celebi / Mega-Metagross core running around recently (which is obviously null now).
Anyways, on a totally unrelated note (and far, far aside from the topic of bans), has anyone else tried Firium-Z Volcarona on Fire?
Volcarona @ Firium Z
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
- Quiver Dance
- Fire Blast
- Giga Drain
- Bug Buzz / HP Ground
It's popular set in OU as a cleaner, and I feel it performs even better in Monotype where it can abuse sun support from Torkoal and Zard-Y. The sheer, stupid power of an 185 sun-boosted, STAB Z-Fire Blast (boosted further by however many quiver dances you pull off) completely blows back defensive checks like Toxapex, Gyarados, Tapu Fini, Dragonite, and even 4x resists like Charizard-X: clearing the path for a sweep either.
None of these KOs are possible with any of Volcarona's other moves at +1, and all of these threats are able to KO or cripple Volcarona if not dispatched. And even outside sun Z-Fire Blast is enormously powerful, able to KO many of the same checks (Gyarados, Dragonite, Zard-X) with rocks and other chip. Yes, you must sacrifice Lum Berry and other items (seen Passho a couple times) to run a Z-stone, which can limit what you can safely set up on. But hopefully the above calcs demonstrate the value of such an absurdly strong nuke attack in removing typical checks and securing sweeps.
There's a lot of wiggle room with this set; sheer power allows Volcarona to make use of several different coverage options and EV spreads.
Volcarona can run Timid to avoid 50/50s with Scolipede / Sharpedo and speed tie Victini (though you sacrifice a fair number of guaranteed OHKOs to do so). You can use a Bulkarona spread and abuse your capacity to rack up more Quiver Dance boosts. Even Z-Fiery Dance isn't out of the question, as it sports a respectable 160 BP as well and is more compatible with aforementioned bulky sets.
I've had a lot of success with it lately: but I'm definitely not an expert on Fire (by far my worst type) so I'd love to hear input and experience from any other players better versed in Fire who've tried or considered it.
Both of the types that Hoopa is on have no trouble getting it in with moves like U-Turn or bringing it in on something that won't be able to damage it. And non-scarfed Hoopa isn't meant to be a revenge killer/sweeper, it's supposed to be a wall breaker. Hoopa's role is to break down the other team so that the faster (and weaker) mons on your team can clean. Also, both of the types Hoopa is on give it great support. If there is something that threatens Hoopa, you can just switch out to one of your walls to soak up the hit.I honestly can't say I agree with the hoopa ban.
If he's not scarf he literally can't switch into any physical attacker whatsoever. Literally not even Uninvested ones like ferrothorn. Meaning since basically every type has a viable physical attacker with at LEAST hoopas speed tier, unless he's scarf he's FORCED to switch out in the 1v1 unless they want to take massive damage on their wall breaker.
People use the fact that hoopa is versatile as an excuse to say he's unwallable. Let's take greninja for example. He has an ability that makes every hit stab. And a movepool that includes moves like, hydro pump, dark pulse, extresensory, low kick, gunk shot, and can make every hidden power into stab meaning he can have an at least decent stab move of every type existing.Not counting fairy.not only that but he has blistering speed, decent special attack considering every move is stab, and can set hazards while removing his weakness to electric.
Even considering all of this, greninja STILL isn't unwallable in fact it's fairly easy to handle all things considered. The reason this is, is because of four move syndrome. This is the reason I don't think hoopa shouldn't be banned. hoopa can't run every single coverage move. Hoopa can't run drain punch for special walls and focus blast for physical walls while still being able to use thunderbolt psychic and dark pulse. Hoopa can ONLY be scarf, specs, OR band. And every set he uses has its own list of mons that wall it. Some mons even switch in to every viable set like magearna.
If you think about it, the most hoopa can do is force the player think more carefully about the plays they make as to not let hoopa In for free or decide not to bring that stall team because they know the opponent runs hoopa and hoopa when used correctly can beat stall
More thinking carefully about plays and less stall spam. Sounds like a meta I want honestly.
(Sorry if some things are spelled incorrectly or just make no sense in general. making a post while hungry and tired probably wasn't the best idea in hindsight)
..what? Sorry, but your post makes no sense whatsoever. It hurt my head to read it even.. UGH!I honestly can't say I agree with the hoopa ban.
If he's not scarf he literally can't switch into any physical attacker whatsoever. Literally not even Uninvested ones like ferrothorn. Meaning since basically every type has a viable physical attacker with at LEAST hoopas speed tier, unless he's scarf he's FORCED to switch out in the 1v1 unless they want to take massive damage on their wall breaker.
People use the fact that hoopa is versatile as an excuse to say he's unwallable. Let's take greninja for example. He has an ability that makes every hit stab. And a movepool that includes moves like, hydro pump, dark pulse, extresensory, low kick, gunk shot, and can make every hidden power into stab meaning he can have an at least decent stab move of every type existing.Not counting fairy.not only that but he has blistering speed, decent special attack considering every move is stab, and can set hazards while removing his weakness to electric.
Even considering all of this, greninja STILL isn't unwallable in fact it's fairly easy to handle all things considered. The reason this is, is because of four move syndrome. This is the reason I don't think hoopa shouldn't be banned. hoopa can't run every single coverage move. Hoopa can't run drain punch for special walls and focus blast for physical walls while still being able to use thunderbolt psychic and dark pulse. Hoopa can ONLY be scarf, specs, OR band. And every set he uses has its own list of mons that wall it. Some mons even switch in to every viable set like magearna.
If you think about it, the most hoopa can do is force the player think more carefully about the plays they make as to not let hoopa In for free or decide not to bring that stall team because they know the opponent runs hoopa and hoopa when used correctly can beat stall
More thinking carefully about plays and less stall spam. Sounds like a meta I want honestly.
(Sorry if some things are spelled incorrectly or just make no sense in general. making a post while hungry and tired probably wasn't the best idea in hindsight)
How does Hoopa-U being Choice Scarfed or not have any impact on it's physical bulk? I don't understand.. Besides, both Psychic and Dark have better switch-ins to physically defensive Pokemon, meaning there is little to no reason to switch your Hoopa-U in on something like Ferrothorn or any other physical wall you had in mind I'm assuming.If he's not scarf he literally can't switch into any physical attacker whatsoever. Literally not even Uninvested ones like ferrothorn.
Another fantastic example. Greninja was banned in ORAS Monotype, partially for the reasons you mentioned here, so comparing it to Hoopa-U disproves your own point even more. Although, Greninja don't have enough in common to make them comparable side to side like this. Besides that, regular Greninja has been on the radar for a potential Suspect Test / Council Ban for a while now, as seen in scpinion's post on page 17.People use the fact that hoopa is versatile as an excuse to say he's unwallable. Let's take greninja for example. He has an ability that makes every hit stab. And a movepool that includes moves like, hydro pump, dark pulse, extresensory, low kick, gunk shot, and can make every hidden power into stab meaning he can have an at least decent stab move of every type existing.Not counting fairy.not only that but he has blistering speed, decent special attack considering every move is stab, and can set hazards while removing his weakness to electric.
This uhh.. really boggled my mind. I have no idea what you're talking about. Four Move Syndrome is something that Greninja suffers from, but it isn't always a bad thing. Four Move Syndrome means the Pokemon you're facing is unpredictable, and can easily catch you off-guard with a coverage move you didn't think it would have. It also makes you need to scout for certain moves (like HP Fire for example, on Greninja), forcing teammates to take unneccesary damage. Only having limited amount of Move Options means it's hard to catch your opponent with a surprise tech since he/she will most likely know exactly what moves the Pokemon in question will be using.The reason this is, is because of four move syndrome. This is the reason I don't think hoopa shouldn't be banned.
Hoopa-U having 3 completely different movesets that all work differently and aren't easy to figure out from team preview.. a bad thing? I don't think so lol. Both CB, Choice Specs, and Scarf have their own uses, and are both (equally) threatening to the opposing team, depending on matchup a bit. Yes, a couple of Pokemon are able to switch in on Specs or Choice Band multiple times while recovering off the damage, but team support is a thing and the bigger problem is that Dark Pulse flinches (sadly) helps Specs Hoopa-U break through Specially Defensive Pokemon, and CB Hoopa-U can afford to run coverage moves like Fire Punch to break through Ferrothorn and Magearna, for example.Hoopa can ONLY be scarf, specs, OR band. And every set he uses has its own list of mons that wall it. Some mons even switch in to every viable set like magearna.
Haha is that the fastest a post has ever been destroyed? I honestly deserve a prize for that tbh. In all seriousness though I can admit when I'm wrong but I don't want to give in to the ban just yet. I'm just going to take a nap so I don't continue to spout nonsense and further elaborate on the points that I made later. One thing before I go though. The reason I connected greninja with hoopa was because of the fact that they share versatility. My original point was that just because a mon is versatile doesn't mean that it's unwallable. Guess I went a little left field though lol...what? Sorry, but your post makes no sense whatsoever. It hurt my head to read it even.. UGH!
First off, what does this mean?
How does Hoopa-U being Choice Scarfed or not have any impact on it's physical bulk? I don't understand.. Besides, both Psychic and Dark have better switch-ins to physically defensive Pokemon, meaning there is little to no reason to switch your Hoopa-U in on something like Ferrothorn or any other physical wall you had in mind I'm assuming.
Another fantastic example. Greninja was banned in ORAS Monotype, partially for the reasons you mentioned here, so comparing it to Hoopa-U disproves your own point even more. Although, Greninja don't have enough in common to make them comparable side to side like this. Besides that, regular Greninja has been on the radar for a potential Suspect Test / Council Ban for a while now, as seen in scpinion's post on page 17.
This uhh.. really boggled my mind. I have no idea what you're talking about. Four Move Syndrome is something that Greninja suffers from, but it isn't always a bad thing. Four Move Syndrome means the Pokemon you're facing is unpredictable, and can easily catch you off-guard with a coverage move you didn't think it would have. It also makes you need to scout for certain moves (like HP Fire for example, on Greninja), forcing teammates to take unneccesary damage. Only having limited amount of Move Options means it's hard to catch your opponent with a surprise tech since he/she will most likely know exactly what moves the Pokemon in question will be using.
Hoopa-U having 3 completely different movesets that all work differently and aren't easy to figure out from team preview.. a bad thing? I don't think so lol. Both CB, Choice Specs, and Scarf have their own uses, and are both (equally) threatening to the opposing team, depending on matchup a bit. Yes, a couple of Pokemon are able to switch in on Specs or Choice Band multiple times while recovering off the damage, but team support is a thing and the bigger problem is that Dark Pulse flinches (sadly) helps Specs Hoopa-U break through Specially Defensive Pokemon, and CB Hoopa-U can afford to run coverage moves like Fire Punch to break through Ferrothorn and Magearna, for example.
Oh, about Magearna..
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 44 Def Magearna: 244-288 (67 - 79.1%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Magearna: 211-249 (57.9 - 68.4%)
I don't think your post was very convincing as to why Hoopa-U shouldn't have been banned (you're too late on that anyways, Council surely won't reconsider their decision by a mind-opener like this post), as you mostly kept misproving your own points and / or spouted nonsense.
If you mean to say no single Hoopa-U set is unwallable, that'd be true... sorta.Haha is that the fastest a post has ever been destroyed? I honestly deserve a prize for that tbh. In all seriousness though I can admit when I'm wrong but I don't want to give in to the ban just yet. I'm just going to take a nap so I don't continue to spout nonsense and further elaborate on the points that I made later. One thing before I go though. The reason I connected greninja with hoopa was because of the fact that they share versatility. My original point was that just because a mon is versatile doesn't mean that it's unwallable. Guess I went a little left field though lol.
Honestly there's too much here for me to respond to right now, so I'm just gonna pick two of your points that caught my eye (the two I quoted above) and explain why I disagree with your reasoning.is VERY prone to losing momentum
why this is bad: this thing loses momentum. LIKE A LOT. the reason being, that his paper thin defenses mean that if someone predicts you to go hoopa and goes to ANY physical presence with decent speed, you are basically FORCED to switch out. and since literally EVERY type has some physical offensive presence, all it takes is one smart play to lose a TON of momentum for you team. and if they can pivot with said offensive presence, well... you're basically forced to bend to their will at that point. This is AWFUL for its viability since even though this thing can pick up kills, in the end, losing momentum is whats going to swing the game in their favor.
next,
ITS LACKLUSTER SPEED
why this is bad: having that lackluster speed is TERRIBLE FOR ITS VIABILITY, since the only way its getting an attack of is in the SLIM chance it outspeeds or HOPING it can live an attack and still have enough hp to attack again. the only way around this is to throw a scarf on it. and by doing that you are sacrificing VALUABLE power. yes, the thing is still strong, but it basically LOSES its wall breaking abilities without lifeorb/specs/band and once it loses its wallbreaking abilities, it basically becomes a sweeper. and at the sweeper position ITS OUTCLASSED BY BOTH TYPES THAT ITS ON.
Ok im back and its time to presentThe reasons i think hoopa should not have been banned.getting roasted by surperior players part 2! Im going to first present the pros and cons of using hoopa on your mono team as well as some of the arguments for hoopas banning and why i think he should not have been banned.
The base lord himself
lets start with the pros.
Hoopa is versatile!
why this is a good thing: hoopa being versatile means that he is able to run as many sets as you can think of and still be viable. this means that hoopa is extremely unpredictable and can if he just so happens to have that one coverage move thats strong agains your team such as thunderbolt, drain punch, energy ball. etc then he can catch you off guard and score a kill and possibly even win the game if your team is not prepared for such a move.
Why i dont think this is a good reason for banning: While being versatile is a very good thing not gonna lie, for one all of the moves that hoopa learns are common coverage moves. thunderbolt for example. while this is a strong coverage move that hits both water and flying types, if you are using those types and don't have something that can beat this move then that is the fault of the team build and not of the mon attacking. for example, porygon 2 gets psychic. if im using fighting and my team loses more than 3-4 mons to the p2 psychic, i don't care how strong the psychic was, its my fault for not having a fast strong attacker on the team. while this is an extreme example the point is still there. and for those of you that are waiting for me to mention the strong stab moves this thing gets ill get to it in a second.
lets move on to another one of hoopas great traits.
Hoopa is thicc(specially)
why this is a good thing: Hoopa being able to tank a hit before it attacks is HUGE for its viablity since being strong literally means nothing if you can't get a hit off. hoopa boasts fairly decent 80/130 hp/special defense stats meaning that it will be able to soak up the weaker special hits and maybe a little more if you run the bulky variant. meaning that if you are a weak special attacker chances are you arnt doing more than 50% to this thing.
Why i dont think this is a good reason for banning: ignoring his featherweight defenses(for now) hoopa still has fairly off putting 80 hp. meaning that even though hes able to take some of the weaker special attacks does not mean that he is a special tank by any means of the word. as far as tanking a hit goes this is the general rule of thumb: if its a special move that monotype is normally weak to/ if you would switch out with any other offensive mon switch out with this thing.
here are some calcs that will rustle your jimmies:
for dark monos:
bug type moves:
252 SpA Galvantula Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 384-456 (105.4 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 480-568 (131.8 - 156%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 567-671 (155.7 - 184.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
you get the point lol.
Fairy type moves:
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 252-296 (69.2 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 156-186 (42.8 - 51%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Togekiss Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 198-234 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Magearna Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 210-248 (57.6 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 338-398 (92.8 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
Fighting type moves:
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 232-274 (63.7 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (its focus blast bc sacred sword calcs for defense lol)
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 187-220 (51.3 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(fighting dosent have alot of special attackers lol)
For psychic monos:
Bug type moves:
252 SpA Galvantula Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 384-456 (105.4 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 480-568 (131.8 - 156%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 567-671 (155.7 - 184.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
you get the point lol.
Ghost type moves:
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 136-161 (37.3 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (yay you live. but this is assuming there arnt rocks up, you got no chip damage, and that he doesnt have sludge wave)
252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 169-199 (46.4 - 54.6%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 165-196 (45.3 - 53.8%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO
Dark type moves:
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 133-156 (36.5 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (once again assuming no chip damage, no hazards, and that the hydreigon doesn't have draco since hes clearly life orb)
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 117-138 (32.1 - 37.9%) -- 93.8% chance to 3HKO
not really alot of good special dark attackers either outside of these two. unless of course you want to mention houndoom.which 2hkos with rocks up
as you can see even boasting that special bulk he still takes quite a bit from special attacks. plus the fact that off of these calcs were from mons that outspeed you (except maybe tapu fini) and you cant be scarfed because i calcd you with max hp. so even boasting that special bulk hes not a switchin for most things his type struggles with already. and that hurts his viability.
and another one.....
great teamates!
why this is good: this is an AWESOME thing to have if you have an offensive presence like hoopa. because this means that the calcs we just went over won't even matter because you can just switch to the respective teammates and not have to take any damage whatsoever. when a threat comes in you can just go to the respective special or physical wall and tank it. it also teams well with teammates offensively as they help him by carrying coverage moves that he isn't able to carry due to only being able to use 4 moves
Why this is not a good reason for a ban: for starters, having great teammates does not mean a particular mon is good. if im sweeping you with octillary and switching out into a respective wall every time a threat comes in, that does not mean octillary is good, rather it means the respective walls are doing their job well. also all of the calcs that I did were not moves particular to hoopa in any way, rather they were moves super effective to the monotype he happens to be on. this means that those moves are likely super effective to the mons that you would normally switch in like mew, slowbro, tyranitar, and alolan muk.
and besides, all of the special walls that psychic has don't provide any resistances to the types psychic is weak to normally outside of jirachi with bug. and all of the special walls that dark has, outside of maybe mandibuzz, lack reliable coverage. so they cant switch in often.
AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST
STRONG AS A MF!
why this is good: hoopa has INSANE psysical AND special attack. and when combined with its massive movepool means that not only is it difficult to prepare for, it straight up shatters unprepared defensive cores. finding any chink in the defensive core and just BLASTING straight through. lets not forget that fact that his stab when hes specs or band is SO STRONG that unless you are a quad resist, it doing quite a bit.
Why this is not ban worthy: as i was corrected before, hoopa is a wallbreaker. meaning hes MEANT to BREAK WALLS. thats literally his job. so its honestly irrational to Not expect a wall breaker to preform its job correctly and break defensive cores, since thats literally what people use hoopa for. heres the thing though. even though he does his job EXTREMELY well, hes still not unwallable. its literally impossible to be unwallable with a 4 move limit, since no matter which combo of moves you use there is always a handful of mons that wall that particular set. besides, raw power does not matter if the mon has no longevity. and with paper thin defense, and subpar special defense longevity wont be very long unless you plan on switching this thing out often.
ON TO THE BAD TRAITS.
is VERY prone to losing momentum
why this is bad: this thing loses momentum. LIKE A LOT. the reason being, that his paper thin defenses mean that if someone predicts you to go hoopa and goes to ANY physical presence with decent speed, you are basically FORCED to switch out. and since literally EVERY type has some physical offensive presence, all it takes is one smart play to lose a TON of momentum for you team. and if they can pivot with said offensive presence, well... you're basically forced to bend to their will at that point. This is AWFUL for its viability since even though this thing can pick up kills, in the end, losing momentum is whats going to swing the game in their favor.
next,
ITS LACKLUSTER SPEED
why this is bad: having that lackluster speed is TERRIBLE FOR ITS VIABILITY, since the only way its getting an attack of is in the SLIM chance it outspeeds or HOPING it can live an attack and still have enough hp to attack again. the only way around this is to throw a scarf on it. and by doing that you are sacrificing VALUABLE power. yes, the thing is still strong, but it basically LOSES its wall breaking abilities without lifeorb/specs/band and once it loses its wallbreaking abilities, it basically becomes a sweeper. and at the sweeper position ITS OUTCLASSED BY BOTH TYPES THAT ITS ON.
lastly, but least.
HIS PAPER NAPKIN DEFENSE
why this is bad: his defense is 80/60. and on paper you would think its not TOO bad. you would be wrong. very, very wrong. This TRASH defense means that he takes absolutely MASSIVE damage from PRIORITY MOVES. lets not even think about super effective moves.
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 192-227 (52.7 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lets take this calc for example. this means that if you even take 30% then you are put into range of PRIORITY MACH PUNCH. lets not forget the fact, that this man is QUAD WEAK TO A PIVOT MOVE. THATS ABSOLUTELY AWFUL. SINCE THAT MEANS THAT YOU ARE FORCED TO SWITCH ON THE PIVOT. WHICH IS ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE IN A COMPETITIVE BATTLE.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-519625762 <-- not a hoopa example but a pivot switch example all the same. apples does not want to take damage on his wincon and switches on the pivot. every time he does hes forced to sack until he loses.
CONCLUSION
In conclusion, i do not think that this mon should have been banned. do i think its bad? HELL NO! hoopa is a great mon, with excellent power and coverage, but i think that the cons of using this mon are too much for this mon to be considered broken.
In all seriousness guys, i spent about an hour and a half working on this so i hope it gets at least some consideration. thanks.
I don't have the energy right now to go into your entire post in detail and pick apart your argument point by pointOk im back and its time to presentThe reasons i think hoopa should not have been banned.getting roasted by surperior players part 2! Im going to first present the pros and cons of using hoopa on your mono team as well as some of the arguments for hoopas banning and why i think he should not have been banned.
The base lord himself
lets start with the pros.
Hoopa is versatile!
why this is a good thing: hoopa being versatile means that he is able to run as many sets as you can think of and still be viable. this means that hoopa is extremely unpredictable and can if he just so happens to have that one coverage move thats strong agains your team such as thunderbolt, drain punch, energy ball. etc then he can catch you off guard and score a kill and possibly even win the game if your team is not prepared for such a move.
Why i dont think this is a good reason for banning: While being versatile is a very good thing not gonna lie, for one all of the moves that hoopa learns are common coverage moves. thunderbolt for example. while this is a strong coverage move that hits both water and flying types, if you are using those types and don't have something that can beat this move then that is the fault of the team build and not of the mon attacking. for example, porygon 2 gets psychic. if im using fighting and my team loses more than 3-4 mons to the p2 psychic, i don't care how strong the psychic was, its my fault for not having a fast strong attacker on the team. while this is an extreme example the point is still there. and for those of you that are waiting for me to mention the strong stab moves this thing gets ill get to it in a second.
lets move on to another one of hoopas great traits.
Hoopa is thicc(specially)
why this is a good thing: Hoopa being able to tank a hit before it attacks is HUGE for its viablity since being strong literally means nothing if you can't get a hit off. hoopa boasts fairly decent 80/130 hp/special defense stats meaning that it will be able to soak up the weaker special hits and maybe a little more if you run the bulky variant. meaning that if you are a weak special attacker chances are you arnt doing more than 50% to this thing.
Why i dont think this is a good reason for banning: ignoring his featherweight defenses(for now) hoopa still has fairly off putting 80 hp. meaning that even though hes able to take some of the weaker special attacks does not mean that he is a special tank by any means of the word. as far as tanking a hit goes this is the general rule of thumb: if its a special move that monotype is normally weak to/ if you would switch out with any other offensive mon switch out with this thing.
here are some calcs that will rustle your jimmies:
for dark monos:
bug type moves:
252 SpA Galvantula Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 384-456 (105.4 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 480-568 (131.8 - 156%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 567-671 (155.7 - 184.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
you get the point lol.
Fairy type moves:
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 252-296 (69.2 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 156-186 (42.8 - 51%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Togekiss Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 198-234 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Magearna Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 210-248 (57.6 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 338-398 (92.8 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
Fighting type moves:
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 232-274 (63.7 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (its focus blast bc sacred sword calcs for defense lol)
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 187-220 (51.3 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(fighting dosent have alot of special attackers lol)
For psychic monos:
Bug type moves:
252 SpA Galvantula Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 384-456 (105.4 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 480-568 (131.8 - 156%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 567-671 (155.7 - 184.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
you get the point lol.
Ghost type moves:
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 136-161 (37.3 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (yay you live. but this is assuming there arnt rocks up, you got no chip damage, and that he doesnt have sludge wave)
252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 169-199 (46.4 - 54.6%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 165-196 (45.3 - 53.8%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO
Dark type moves:
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 133-156 (36.5 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (once again assuming no chip damage, no hazards, and that the hydreigon doesn't have draco since hes clearly life orb)
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 117-138 (32.1 - 37.9%) -- 93.8% chance to 3HKO
not really alot of good special dark attackers either outside of these two. unless of course you want to mention houndoom.which 2hkos with rocks up
as you can see even boasting that special bulk he still takes quite a bit from special attacks. plus the fact that off of these calcs were from mons that outspeed you (except maybe tapu fini) and you cant be scarfed because i calcd you with max hp. so even boasting that special bulk hes not a switchin for most things his type struggles with already. and that hurts his viability.
and another one.....
great teamates!
why this is good: this is an AWESOME thing to have if you have an offensive presence like hoopa. because this means that the calcs we just went over won't even matter because you can just switch to the respective teammates and not have to take any damage whatsoever. when a threat comes in you can just go to the respective special or physical wall and tank it. it also teams well with teammates offensively as they help him by carrying coverage moves that he isn't able to carry due to only being able to use 4 moves
Why this is not a good reason for a ban: for starters, having great teammates does not mean a particular mon is good. if im sweeping you with octillary and switching out into a respective wall every time a threat comes in, that does not mean octillary is good, rather it means the respective walls are doing their job well. also all of the calcs that I did were not moves particular to hoopa in any way, rather they were moves super effective to the monotype he happens to be on. this means that those moves are likely super effective to the mons that you would normally switch in like mew, slowbro, tyranitar, and alolan muk.
and besides, all of the special walls that psychic has don't provide any resistances to the types psychic is weak to normally outside of jirachi with bug. and all of the special walls that dark has, outside of maybe mandibuzz, lack reliable coverage. so they cant switch in often.
AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST
STRONG AS A MF!
why this is good: hoopa has INSANE psysical AND special attack. and when combined with its massive movepool means that not only is it difficult to prepare for, it straight up shatters unprepared defensive cores. finding any chink in the defensive core and just BLASTING straight through. lets not forget that fact that his stab when hes specs or band is SO STRONG that unless you are a quad resist, it doing quite a bit.
Why this is not ban worthy: as i was corrected before, hoopa is a wallbreaker. meaning hes MEANT to BREAK WALLS. thats literally his job. so its honestly irrational to Not expect a wall breaker to preform its job correctly and break defensive cores, since thats literally what people use hoopa for. heres the thing though. even though he does his job EXTREMELY well, hes still not unwallable. its literally impossible to be unwallable with a 4 move limit, since no matter which combo of moves you use there is always a handful of mons that wall that particular set. besides, raw power does not matter if the mon has no longevity. and with paper thin defense, and subpar special defense longevity wont be very long unless you plan on switching this thing out often.
ON TO THE BAD TRAITS.
is VERY prone to losing momentum
why this is bad: this thing loses momentum. LIKE A LOT. the reason being, that his paper thin defenses mean that if someone predicts you to go hoopa and goes to ANY physical presence with decent speed, you are basically FORCED to switch out. and since literally EVERY type has some physical offensive presence, all it takes is one smart play to lose a TON of momentum for you team. and if they can pivot with said offensive presence, well... you're basically forced to bend to their will at that point. This is AWFUL for its viability since even though this thing can pick up kills, in the end, losing momentum is whats going to swing the game in their favor.
next,
ITS LACKLUSTER SPEED
why this is bad: having that lackluster speed is TERRIBLE FOR ITS VIABILITY, since the only way its getting an attack of is in the SLIM chance it outspeeds or HOPING it can live an attack and still have enough hp to attack again. the only way around this is to throw a scarf on it. and by doing that you are sacrificing VALUABLE power. yes, the thing is still strong, but it basically LOSES its wall breaking abilities without lifeorb/specs/band and once it loses its wallbreaking abilities, it basically becomes a sweeper. and at the sweeper position ITS OUTCLASSED BY BOTH TYPES THAT ITS ON.
lastly, but least.
HIS PAPER NAPKIN DEFENSE
why this is bad: his defense is 80/60. and on paper you would think its not TOO bad. you would be wrong. very, very wrong. This TRASH defense means that he takes absolutely MASSIVE damage from PRIORITY MOVES. lets not even think about super effective moves.
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 192-227 (52.7 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lets take this calc for example. this means that if you even take 30% then you are put into range of PRIORITY MACH PUNCH. lets not forget the fact, that this man is QUAD WEAK TO A PIVOT MOVE. THATS ABSOLUTELY AWFUL. SINCE THAT MEANS THAT YOU ARE FORCED TO SWITCH ON THE PIVOT. WHICH IS ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE IN A COMPETITIVE BATTLE.
CONCLUSION
In conclusion, i do not think that this mon should have been banned. do i think its bad? HELL NO! hoopa is a great mon, with excellent power and coverage, but i think that the cons of using this mon are too much for this mon to be considered broken.
In all seriousness guys, i spent about an hour and a half working on this so i hope it gets at least some consideration. thanks.
I wouldn't call it stupidity, sometimes it's hard to notice broken Pokemon when it doesn't counter your playstyle. I noticed that about myself during the M-Sableye OU suspect. I did not want it banned but only because the teams I used and way I played made it less of a threat.viewing your guys's post and using classic 2020 hindsight i guess the momentum argument wasn't the best.im not going to edit it out tho cuz thats a cop out. i want to show my stupidity to the world.
on a real note though guys thanks for responding. shows i didn't make that huge post for nothing.