Announcement SM OU Suspect Process, Round 2 - Dirt

[Martin]

While I'm not going to argue for or against this 'cause quite frankly I couldn't give a fuck what the outcome of this suspect test is, I think people are grossly oversimplifying the stall issue if they are saying that any one element is the issue, and quite frankly I don't think that this suspect is going to solve anything. My handful of games messing with stall on the suspect ladder is more than enough evidence for me that this isn't a solution on the basis that it provides an incapacity to consistently circumvent the busted stallbreakers that Dugtrio kept in check to an extent (namely MegaGross and Tapu Lele) while still faring identically well versus other, more balanced stallbreakers barring Heatran and BandTar, and quite honestly if I had to provide a forecast for the future of the tier I think that we're going to reach a point in two or three months where we've banned the trapper and then banned the Pokemon that kept Dugtrioless stall in check and turned it into a problem where removing the trapper isn't going to do jack shit due to it being blatantly clear that other trappers do not cause problems (Diglett and Trapinch stall achieve fucking nothing so please stop lying to yourselves about Arena Trap as a whole being a problem; Pursuit stall isn't remotely a problem on any level due to all the Pursuit users falling flat on some fundamental level that makes them semi-consistent at best).

This completely polarised mindset that "Dugtrio/Arena Trap is an issue!!!" or "Sableye is an issue!!!" is simply not a healthy mindset when discussing what makes stall problematic simply because they are both outright wrong; it is much more a case of the two in conjunction being the problem children with regards to stall, and honestly I don't think that banning either one of these is going to solve jack shit quite frankly. If we are forced down the route of banning any single one, I think that if anything banning Sableye would be much closer to a "solution" than banning Dugtrio--but that's not the purpose of this thread. Come at me with pitchforks to burn the witch if you want, but all I made this post to say was that people seriously need to hop off of their stigma horses for a minute and step back to actually try and evaluate the issue from a blank slate. I completely understand why Dugtrio is having this focus put onto it, but there are a lot of people both in and out of this thread who are seeing the word "trap" and seeming to look at it way too much as an issue in a vacuum as opposed to actually thinking about the way it is a thing with combinations as opposed to an isolated issue with Dugtrio or Sableye or whatever other donkeys people want to pin tails onto as the so-called "primary perpetrator."

 

[Night Train Lane]

As far as the Arena Trap vs Dugtrio thing goes, Dugtrio is inherently unhealthy because of it's stats and movepool. Unlike Magnezone where it has better stats but traps less pokemon; dugtrio gives SO much utility to the dugtrio user. With moves like Toxic that allow you to Toxic then sac dugtrio and stall the problematic mon to death. (In the case of SD bulu which is a huge problem for stall. Bulu comes in you sac the sash then toxic and stall out with Clefable.) Another move like screech allows you to beat Chansey / Magic Guard Clefable / Blissey for pokemon that have trouble breaking when those are alive. (ex Charizard-Y and Hydreigon.) It gets reversal which means pokemon that can avoid the 2hko from EQ still get trapped and killed. (Kyurem-Black) It can run a scarf that allows it to trap things like Pheromosa and Tapu Koko which otherwise have no problem with it. (u-turn Koko doesn't fear Dugtrio.) It also gets momento which lets bring in a set up sweeper for free. (Most notably Momento Dugtrio + Quiver Dance Pheromosa.) It can even run a Z-Move set with Tectonic Rage that allows it to comfortably kill Toxapex without fear of not killing cause of a burn. Dugtrio can also run Rock Slide / Stone Edge on order to reliably kill Volcarona and Zardy. Not to mention that banded set.

Nearly every anti-ban argument I see is looking at Dugtrio in a funnel. Dugtrio provides great utility to many teams. NOT JUST STALL.

In the case of why we would ban Shadow Tag but not ban Arena Trap is very simple. All Shadow Tag users were uncompetitive. Yes, Wobb was uncompetitive. Yes, Baby Goth was uncompetitive. It could do all the things that Big Goth could do except slightly worse. The only other Arena Trap users are Diglett and Trapinch. Diglett is seriously bad and doesn't provide nearly enough power / speed / effectiveness as its evolved form. Trapinch is also bad. It doesn't have the movepool or speed to effectively do it's trapping job.

TL;DR Dugtrio itself is an unhealthy pokemon. Since we have no other decent Arena Trap users we have no evidence to say that Arena Trap is a broken mechanic like Shadow Tag was. Dugtrios movepool + stats + ability to run different sets to fulfill many rolls on many different teams and archtypes make it unhealthy for the OU metagame.

If I do get reqs I will be voting Ban. But yesterday I missed all 8 Focus Blasts vs Mono Ice and lost so that probably won't be happening

 

[Dakress]

In the case of why we would ban Shadow Tag but not ban Arena Trap is very simple. All Shadow Tag users were uncompetitive. Yes, Wobb was uncompetitive. Yes, Baby Goth was uncompetitive. It could do all the things that Big Goth could do except slightly worse. The only other Arena Trap users are Diglett and Trapinch. Diglett is seriously bad and doesn't provide nearly enough power / speed / effectiveness as its evolved form. Trapinch is also bad. It doesn't have the movepool or speed to effectively do it's trapping job.

I've been seeing Diglett quite a bit in the suspect ladder, and I've to say that your whole "It could do all the things that Big Goth could do except slightly worse" argument fits a bit too exactly with what's currently happening. The fact that people are unironically considering Diglett/Trapinch as a viable remplacement for stall in the first place kinda rubs me the wrong way, and it's what's giving me the feelin' thas this whole thing is just a temporary measure of sorts.

Also, while I agree with the idea of Duggy being useful against all kind of playstyles (it get rid of Chansey through Screech+EQ, for example), there's a reason why it has become the face of stall:

+----------------------------------------+
| Dugtrio |
+----------------------------------------+
| Teammates |
| Sableye-Mega +17.070% |
| Chansey +13.739% |
| Skarmory +9.044% |
| Charizard-Mega-Y +7.314% |
| Shedinja +7.308% |
| Tapu Fini +6.676% |
| Zapdos +6.266% |
| Tangrowth +6.070% |
| Toxapex +5.594% |
| Clefable +5.343% |
| Volcarona +5.066% |
| Chandelure +4.286% |
+----------------------------------------+

 

[Night Train Lane]

I've been seeing Diglett quite a bit in the suspect ladder, and I've to say that your whole "It could do all the things that Big Goth could do except slightly worse" argument fits a bit too exactly with what's currently happening. The fact that people are unironically considering Diglett/Trapinch as a viable remplacement for stall in the first place kinda rubs me the wrong way, and it's what's giving me the feelin' thas this whole thing is just a temporary measure of sorts.

Also, while I agree with the idea of Duggy being useful against all kind of playstyles (it get rid of Chansey through Screech+EQ, for example), but there's a reason why it has become the face of stall:

Oh, I definitely agree and understand that it's the face of stall and we definitely shouldn't ignore that, I'm just seeing too many "this only effects stall" posts.

In the case of Diglett I'm unfamiliar with exact how much worse it is. But I do know it's much worse. You speed tie with Lele for example.
I have used Trapinch however and it doesn't do too well.

One thing I feel I didn't make clear enough was that you could replace Big Goth with Baby Goth and get the exact same results. Too my knowledge you can't do that with Dugtrio / Diglett.

 

[Dakress]

One thing I feel I didn't make clear enough was that you could replace Big Goth with Baby Goth and get the exact same results. Too my knowledge you can't do that with Dugtrio / Diglett.

You kinda can, actually:

252 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 134-162 (44.5 - 53.8%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Diglett Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 64-76 (21.2 - 25.2%) -- 22.6% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
(with 65% HP or less AND lack of Bullet Punch, M-Meta is gone)

252 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 288-342 (79.5 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
(same idea, but this one needs less damage prior the revenge killing)
252 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa-Unbound: 160-190 (53.1 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(if it isn't scarfed, it's dead)

252 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 364-432 (94.3 - 111.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 176-210 (51.4 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(same as metagross/excadrill)

252 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 121-144 (43 - 51.2%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(both have the exact same speed, so revenge killing a stallbreaker variant is highly luck based)

252 Atk Diglett Reversal (200 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 338-398 (52.6 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

It doesn't hit nearly as hard, but with hazard support/control and means to force the stallbreaker to switch out, you can get similar results. This situation reminnds me of something I've heard happens a lot in the lower tiers; people use pre-evolutions of OU/UU pokes to fulfill the same role they have in said metagames, like Gale Wings Fletchinder, Contrary Servine, Eviolite Ferroseed and Bronzor, etc.

Prepare yourselves guys, because if the current suspect's topic doesn't change, the chances of Duggy Jr. getting an OU analisis are pretty high (granted, he might become a stall only mon like Shedinja, but still)

 

[I like pink mons]

I will be quick.

Arena Trap is what keeps stall alive.

Magma Storm Heatran is probably stall’s biggest issue (even more than Tapu Lele / Hoopa U if you ask me).
Without Arena Trap, this thing has no answer bar:

• Scarf Golem-Alola (it’s bad).
• Latias (it enhances the Choice Band Tyranitar weakness: it’s bad).
• Flygon (it’s bad).
• Mantine, and it might be the only relevant answer. And don’t get me wrong, it is not that good (Heatran can still Taunt it).

I could mention Choice Band Tyranitar too, as it is impossible to play around it without Arena Trap.

Ban Arena Trap, and all stall teams will end up being 6-0’d by (at least) the two aforementioned pokemons.
This ban would invalidate the whole playstyle.

Ban Dugtrio, and that will force people to run Adamant Diglett over Dugtrio on stall. How dumb.
This ban would not change much. It would just kill stall’s diversity so the 'only' viable build is Mega Sableye / Chansey / Clefable / Skarmory / Toxapex / Diglett.

Please don’t mention Trapinch, it cannot trap Heatran because of its awful speed; nobody should use Trapinch on stall.

By the way, is it worth to invalidate a whole playstyle when the biggest threat of the OU metagame – Landorus-T (Usage: 33.58356%) - can straightly 6-0 stall teams ?

Is it how you balance the metagame ?

Most of the S, A+ and A ranked pokemons already deal with stall decently.
You can also read my post there if you havn't: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/metagame-discussion-thread-v2.3592140/page-7
for further comprehension of my point of view.

 

[Leo]

I find the skill based argument to be a little annoying. Yes, Dugtrio doesn't require much skill to use, but neither does a lot of things in the tier (e.g. Pheromosa, who seems down on the list on priorities that people want a suspect for before things like Greninja and Mega Metagross), and I was under the impression that this place was supposed to cater for players of all skill-levels. Additionally, isn't the burden on the better player to come up with contingencies for the easy-to-use highly threatening set? As someone who ran offence before the suspect test I tried to come up with sets that counter it, I didn't just sit around hoping for a suspect test - and as people have repeatedly mentioned Dugtrio isn't some un-counterable beast that there's literally nothing you can do to stop.

People say that Dugtrio greatly restricts the switching you can make, why? I mean sure, it can revenge certain threats extremely well, but it's a tricky play to accurately predict when an opponent is going to switch in something that it can trap with perfect accuracy all the time, and if the Dugtrio player miss predicts just once then you have the momentum not them. With it's frailty, this kind of risky switching isn't a cost free play by any means, it's not like Gothitelle who did have some bulk to make extremely lazy plays with.

And if you do switch-in something it can trap, and it traps it, so what? You have a whole team, and you can easily engineer your team to exploit that obvious Dugtrio trapping with something that can set-up on Dugtrio (e.g. Stallbreakers like the SubCM Keldeo I mention below and SubCoilToxic Zygarde, or if the opposing Dugtrio is on an offence team something like Mega Gyarados does well).


With A-Marowak you can run Thick Club with 212 Spe EVs, 252+ Atk, 40 HP and 4 Def. This means you outspeed anything trying to speed creep on stall (8 Spe Skarmory) apart from Dugtrio, while still retaining the crazy power of Adamant. You can use Lightning Rod with Fire Punch/Earthquake or Bonemerang/Shadow Club/SD or Rock Head with Flare Blitz as people don't tend to fall for the Lightning Rod Volt-Switch trapping anyway.

In terms of play I think it's pretty easy to take out several stallmons with this set, as it's not hard to lure out Skarmory with a physical type it can easily wall and with Dugtrio you can just switch out. I don't really see this a worthless dead-weight set either, it has pretty much zero switch-ins, and the ones it does have take good damage on the switch with Rock Head/Flare Blitz (e.g. Lando-T) leaving them in range of more offensive mons in addition to hard-countering some sets like Pheromosa.

I find the assumption that people shouldn't be running Stallbreakers that actually break stall with Dugtrio (SubCM Keldeo - I invest in HP and it works just fine as it still maintains good speed and few things like taking a Modest Scald from behind a Sub, SubCoilToxic Zygarde, SD Wallbreaker Alolan-Marowak, Taunt/Crunch/Iron Head/Dragon Dance Mega Gyarados to an extent - I updated my original post with a set for the latter) and Dugtrio should be just be banned instead to be a little strange. Surely if a Stallbreaker doesn't break conventional stall, it's not a good Stallbreaker? It seems like the wrong view to be saying something could break stall if not for Dugtrio, because if that's what stall is running then they are by definition not a good Stallbreaker.

Honestly I think Dugtrio really should have had a Victim of the Week spot before this suspect took place, as it seems like awareness of counter strategies is pretty poor. I'd say before anything else gets suspected, someone should revive Victim of the Week and things like Mega Metagross, Ash-Greninja, Lele and Pheromosa should all get a week's run in the thread.

The problem is, the core of Sab Skarm Chansey Toxa Clef covers such a wide amount of the meta that after Dug traps your Stallbreaker chances are you won't have another Stallbreaker that can set up on it. And no, SubCM Keldeo is not a Stallbreaker and will never beat Stall unless your opp decides not to use his Toxa nor his Clef or he has a bad Stall team. Even Marowak isn't a reliable Stallbreaker cause it has to win some 50-50s against Pursuit Dugtrio (which is a thing because of Marowak mainly) and once your opp gets damage on you it puts you in range of other attacks and you won't break Stall because you can't OHKO everything unless you're SD Rock Head Blitz which makes no sense on a non TR team and is very situational. It also makes role compression harder because now you need an actual elec check.

 

[Jojobobo]

The problem is, the core of Sab Skarm Chansey Toxa Clef covers such a wide amount of the meta that after Dug traps your Stallbreaker chances are you won't have another Stallbreaker that can set up on it. And no, SubCM Keldeo is not a Stallbreaker and will never beat Stall unless your opp decides not to use his Toxa nor his Clef or he has a bad Stall team.

Well not every stall team will use both Toxapex and Clefable, and Keldeo wins against Toxapex lacking Haze. While Marowak can be weakened, it's really a combination of decent threats against stall that can weaken it, not just anyone threat in a bubble.

 

[hecatomb]

The logic with shadow tag users being uncompetitive is complete BS, because they were, if they were not competitive no one would have used gothitelle. The fact is people did use gothitelle, cause it could hard counter some pokemon. Now look at what dugtrio is doing, the samething, locking down some pokemon just to hard counter them. It makes no sense to allow arena trap, yet ban shadow tag. If arena trap-dugtrio is allowed why isnt shadow tag gothitelle?

 

[pika pal]

Well not every stall team will use both Toxapex and Clefable, and Keldeo wins against Toxapex lacking Haze. While Marowak can be weakened, it's really a combination of decent threats against stall that can weaken it, not just anyone threat in a bubble.

Isn't the single most common stall build right now Chansey/Toxapex/Sableye/Skarmory/Clefable/Dugtrio specifically because it performs the most consistently as a Stall team?

 

[Leo]

Well not every stall team will use both Toxapex and Clefable, and Keldeo wins against Toxapex lacking Haze. While Marowak can be weakened, it's really a combination of decent threats against stall that can weaken it, not just anyone threat in a bubble.

I didn't want to make a post just to point this out but you don't seem to understand that any good stall team has either Toxapex or Clefable and the most common variant has both which renders SubCM Keldeo useless against Stall. Toxapex always packs Haze on any good Stall team so "hoping Toxapex lacks Haze" isn't an argument for it. SubCM Keldeo is a really bad set in this meta and I don't even consider it viable, the closest viable set is CM 3 attacks with Hyper Beam which is used as a lure most of the time. If you won against a competent player using a good Stall team with SubCM Keldeo feel free to let me know because as far as I know there's no way Keldeo beats Stall. And if said Stall team lacks countermeasures for Keldeo then it is most likely beaten by another more relevant and viable threat.
Edit: About Marowak I know it's a threat to Stall even with Pursuit Dug and it will always get a kill but that usually isn't enough to beat Stall if the player knows what he doesn't need and sacks it. It still gives you a good shot at slowly breaking the Stall core and eventually winning but you need more Stall countermeasures imo.

 

[KingKdot]

I'm not going to make a long post because I dont have much to add to what kratosmana and ABR have already said, but I plan on getting reqs and voting ban. However, I think that the suspect should be for arena trap and not just dugtrio. To me the situation seems pretty similar to when shadow tag as an ability was banned. The (possibly) uncompetitive aspect is not being able to switch, severely limiting counter-play and teambuilding. As people have shown in calcs throughout the thread, most of the time diglett does just as good of a job as dugtrio on stall, with a couple exceptions. I'm not going to try to convince you to vote ban or not to vote ban, but either way I think Arena trap should be suspected, not just dugtrio.

 

[Uberkong]

I will be quick.

Arena Trap is what keeps stall alive.

Magma Storm Heatran is probably stall’s biggest issue (even more than Tapu Lele / Hoopa U if you ask me).
Without Arena Trap, this thing has no answer bar:

• Scarf Golem-Alola (it’s bad).
• Latias (it enhances the Choice Band Tyranitar weakness: it’s bad).
• Flygon (it’s bad).
• Mantine, and it might be the only relevant answer. And don’t get me wrong, it is not that good (Heatran can still Taunt it).

I could mention Choice Band Tyranitar too, as it is impossible to play around it without Arena Trap.

Ban Arena Trap, and all stall teams will end up being 6-0’d by (at least) the two aforementioned pokemons.
This ban would invalidate the whole playstyle.

Ban Dugtrio, and that will force people to run Adamant Diglett over Dugtrio on stall. How dumb.
This ban would not change much. It would just kill stall’s diversity so the 'only' viable build is Mega Sableye / Chansey / Clefable / Skarmory / Toxapex / Diglett.

Please don’t mention Trapinch, it cannot trap Heatran because of its awful speed; nobody should use Trapinch on stall.

By the way, is it worth to invalidate a whole playstyle when the biggest threat of the OU metagame – Landorus-T (Usage: 33.58356%) - can straightly 6-0 stall teams ?

Is it how you balance the metagame ?

Most of the S, A+ and A ranked pokemons already deal with stall decently.

I think this is called a slippery slope fallacy; the idea that a detriment to one playstyle will surely result in the ultimate demise of that playstyle is speculation at best. We have seen stall adapt multiple times; a trapping element for stall teams is an extremely valid win condition, but just as a plant will reach for sunlight, stall will find new win conditions if it is forced to adapt to the lack of tri-moles available. I also think you are exaggerating the threat that Heatran poses to stall, since it lacks reliable recovery and Magma Storm can be PP stalled by the likes of SpDef Zapdos over the course of the game. Or, you know, you could deal with magma storm Heatran the way everyone else does; dodge, sack and revenge kill, or let your defensive pokemon get whittled, as they are bound to throughout the course of a normal battle. Heatran and BandTar might be good, but its really not so hard to deal with them that you need a trapping ability; offense builds handle these threats just fine. Put a defensive landorus on your team over Dugtrio. You can give it rest and shit too, then heal bell that fucker with clef. Boom, BandTar problem solved. No playstyle / archetype is so one dimensional that removing a single pokemon invalidates that playstyle's existence. If you think you can't use stall without Dugtrio, this would either demonstrate a lack of teambuilding skill, or a lack of battling technique.

 

[Jojobobo]

Isn't the single most common stall build right now Chansey/Toxapex/Sableye/Skarmory/Clefable/Dugtrio specifically because it performs the most consistently as a Stall team?

I didn't want to make a post just to point this out but you don't seem to understand that any good stall team has either Toxapex or Clefable and the most common variant has both which renders SubCM Keldeo useless against Stall. Toxapex always packs Haze on any good Stall team so "hoping Toxapex lacks Haze" isn't an argument for it. SubCM Keldeo is a really bad set in this meta and I don't even consider it viable, the closest viable set is CM 3 attacks with Hyper Beam which is used as a lure most of the time. If you won against a competent player using a good Stall team with SubCM Keldeo feel free to let me know because as far as I know there's no way Keldeo beats Stall. And if said Stall team lacks countermeasures for Keldeo then it is most likely beaten by another more relevant and viable threat.
Edit: About Marowak I know it's a threat to Stall even with Pursuit Dug and it will always get a kill but that usually isn't enough to beat Stall if the player knows what he doesn't need and sacks it. It still gives you a good shot at slowly breaking the Stall core and eventually winning but you need more Stall countermeasures imo.

I've quoted you both as the points are pretty similar. The team pika pal suggest is common, but not everyone will necessarily run it if they're running Stall. Zoning in conpletely on Keldeo is a little redundant as I mentioned, the point is in combination with other threats it can get the edge, I don't think any pokemon perfectly beats stall in a bubble otherwise stall wouldn't be such a threat.

As I will be doing a RMT soon, the team I'm playing is SubCM Keldeo, SubCoil Zygarde, Power-Up Punch/Thunder Punch/Meteor Mash/EQ Mega Metagross and Firium-Z Volcarona, with Aurora Veil support across two mons (and as mentioned, it hit 1700 before the suspect test, I was hoping to ladder it higher). The combination of those threats means there's room to break stall (I've set up on Dugtrio's with Power-Up Punch Mega Metagross under Aurora Veil, check the Mega Evolutions thread) as well as pressure conventional offence strategies due to my increased bulk.

It's not a single one of those threats that "breaks" stall which you're claiming Keldeo should be able to do, but rather the whole offensive package that punches holes to make it do-able. To answer you Leooo_33, no I haven't played against the exact stall teams you're talking about - but I have played against one's with Quagsire that cause me more trouble than Clefable. Regardless, I think anyone should be able this combo can overcome stall - I could change to SubCoilToxic Zygarde even to counter-play stall harder, but currently don't see the need.

And I'm not saying, "Everyone should be running teams exactly like this," but it's a good example if you think a little outside the box than teams which handle stall and offence are manageable. As I keep repeatedly saying even if you don't have a niche team such as mine by just having Bulu on your team you can give Dugtrio a huge headache in just one mon.

Regardless, I think there's not much need to discuss specific mons at this point that can handle Dugtrio and stall. There clearly are some that do tackle stall to an extent even with Dugtrio, and while such strategies exist it's more of a matter of choice to not use them and think Dugtrio is totally broken IMO.

 

[I like pink mons]

Uberkong, I stopped considering your post seriously when I read:

Put a defensive landorus on your team over Dugtrio. You can give it rest and shit too, then heal bell that fucker with clef. Boom, BandTar problem solved.

Choice Band Tyranitar still uses Pursuit. Then switches out. It still pressures Chansey. And then wins with Charizard Y or anything that needs Chansey KO'd.
That solves the problem indeed (hint: this is a sarcasm).

you could deal with magma storm Heatran the way everyone else does; dodge, sack and revenge kill

Offense builds handle these threats just fine.

1) Offense does not rely on countering threats. Stall does. So of course offense teams can handle those threats by pressuring them and just need revenge killers. That is a totally irrelevant point that shows you misunderstand the stall playstyle.

2) With which Revenge Killer exactly ? Weavile ? Tyranitar ? How much pokemons will you have to lose exactly so Pursuit kills Heatran ?
You make it sounds like it's easy to deal with Heatran on stall, share your knowledge with us because I'm sure a lot of people would enjoy hearing it.

 

[G0tagofast]

Heatran trades itself vs seismic toss chansey so stop complaining "but heatran rapes me" also magma misses a lot.

Does anyone remember stall before trappers became common like do you know whats specially defensive gliscor or any other non passive special wall?

 

[I like pink mons]

Heatran trades itself vs seismic toss chansey so stop complaining "but heatran rapes me" also magma misses a lot.

Do I really need to explain people what a "counter" is ? Sad.

By the way my lord, SpDef Gliscor loses to Heatran. Magma Storm + Bloom Doom kills. Calc it.

 

[volx757]

You make it sounds like it's easy to deal with Heatran on stall, share your knowledge with us because I'm sure a lot of people would enjoy hearing it.

0 Atk Quagsire Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 360-424 (93.2 - 109.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Toxapex beats non-EP variants (and stallbreaker tran doesn't run EP):
0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 102-120 (26.4 - 31%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Toxapex: 49-58 (16.1 - 19%) -- possible 8HKO after Black Sludge recovery

If you're playing weavile stall, you can sac weavile and then something like zapdos can kill the weakend tran w no recovery easily:
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 187-220 (48.4 - 56.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Chansey can take it out 1v1 with seismic toss:
0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 69-82 (10.7 - 12.7%) -- possible 8HKO

Stall can also run things like black sludge tentacruel, toxic orb gliscor, shit even alomomola can potentially take heatran out.

So even if the heatran player hits all their magma misses, it can be handled.

Do I really need to explain people what a "counter" is ? Sad.

Ok so ppl are in here talking about how you can 'counter' dugtrio by saccing a mon (?) but stall can't be bothered to use the same strategy to beat something it has trouble with?

 

[Uberkong]

Uberkong, I stopped considering your post seriously when I read:



Choice Band Tyranitar still uses Pursuit. Then switches out. It still pressures Chansey. And then wins with Charizard Y or anything that needs Chansey KO'd.
That solves the problem indeed (hint: this is a sarcasm).




1) Offense does not rely on countering threats. Stall does. So of course offense teams can handle those threats by pressuring them and just need revenge killers. That is a totally irrelevant point that shows you misunderstand the stall playstyle.

2) With which Revenge Killer exactly ? Weavile ? Tyranitar ? How much pokemons will you have to lose exactly so Pursuit kills Heatran ?
You make it sounds like it's easy to deal with Heatran on stall, share your knowledge with us because I'm sure a lot of people would enjoy hearing it.

I know I've played you on ladder, I like pink mons. I didnt mean to offend you so sorry if I came off a bit harsh. Of course TTar uses pursuit, we are both on the same page. If you feel like you can't outplay a bandtar, maybe you should put protect on chansey over toxic, so you can scout for the pursuit. Also stall does not really have "counters" they have "checks", because stall does not really pick up quick KO's, they set up layers, click the healing move, and generally wait until they are about to lose the game to make a play.

 

[I like pink mons]

0 Atk Quagsire Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 360-424 (93.2 - 109.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Toxapex beats non-EP variants (and stallbreaker tran doesn't run EP):
0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 102-120 (26.4 - 31%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Toxapex: 49-58 (16.1 - 19%) -- possible 8HKO after Black Sludge recovery

If you're playing weavile stall, you can sac weavile and then something like zapdos can kill the weakend tran w no recovery easily:
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 187-220 (48.4 - 56.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Chansey can take it out 1v1 with seismic toss:
0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 69-82 (10.7 - 12.7%) -- possible 8HKO

Stall can also run things like black sludge tentacruel, toxic orb gliscor, shit even alomomola can potentially take heatran out.

So even if the heatran player hits all their magma misses, it can be handled.




Ok so ppl are in here talking about how you can 'counter' dugtrio by saccing a mon (?) but stall can't be bothered to use the same strategy to beat something it has trouble with?

Quag loses to Bloom Doom. Toxapex loses to Earth Power. Gliscor loses to Magma Storm + Bloom Doom. Alomomola loses to Bloom Doom. Tentacruel is not viable and loses to Earth Power.

Here is the Heatran set because you're clearly answering me without knowing what you're talking about: http://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/heatran/

I'm done talking with you guys. I have no patience to discuss with people that always bring shaky, irrelevant arguments. Sorry and good continuation.

 

[Zokuru]

Quag loses to Bloom Doom. Toxapex loses to Earth Power. Gliscor loses to Magma Storm + Bloom Doom. Alomomola loses to Bloom Doom. Tentacruel is not viable and loses to Earth Power.

Here is the Heatran set because you're clearly answering me without knowing what you're talking about: http://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/heatran/

I'm done talking with you guys. I have no patience to discuss with people that always bring shaky, irrelevant arguments. Sorry and good continuation.

I would add something : This is just one Tran set. What if you play against Toxic Taunt MStorm ? Get destroyed.

The way stall works is by reversing the tempo in a long run AND in this amount of time, making inefficient for which the team has no counter for ( e.g Lure a Zard X with Tox Skarm then tempo with Clefable ). You MUST have a gameplan for everything, every single situation.

That's not how work an offensive team. An offensive team is about grabbing momentum and deal this momentum against the damage you need to pass thought the opponent's team. In offense you can check, in stall you must counter, even if you need 2 Pokémon and a little of positive tempo, but you need a COUNTER plan.

 

[Leo]

I've quoted you both as the points are pretty similar. The team pika pal suggest is common, but not everyone will necessarily run it if they're running Stall. Zoning in conpletely on Keldeo is a little redundant as I mentioned, the point is in combination with other threats it can get the edge, I don't think any pokemon perfectly beats stall in a bubble otherwise stall wouldn't be such a threat.

As I will be doing a RMT soon, the team I'm playing is SubCM Keldeo, SubCoil Zygarde, Power-Up Punch/Thunder Punch/Meteor Mash/EQ Mega Metagross and Firium-Z Volcarona, with Aurora Veil support across two mons (and as mentioned, it hit 1700 before the suspect test, I was hoping to ladder it higher). The combination of those threats means there's room to break stall (I've set up on Dugtrio's with Power-Up Punch Mega Metagross under Aurora Veil, check the Mega Evolutions thread) as well as pressure conventional offence strategies due to my increased bulk.

It's not a single one of those threats that "breaks" stall which you're claiming Keldeo should be able to do, but rather the whole offensive package that punches holes to make it do-able. To answer you Leooo_33, no I haven't played against the exact stall teams you're talking about - but I have played against one's with Quagsire that cause me more trouble than Clefable. Regardless, I think anyone should be able this combo can overcome stall - I could change to SubCoilToxic Zygarde even to counter-play stall harder, but currently don't see the need.

And I'm not saying, "Everyone should be running teams exactly like this," but it's a good example if you think a little outside the box than teams which handle stall and offence are manageable. As I keep repeatedly saying even if you don't have a niche team such as mine by just having Bulu on your team you can give Dugtrio a huge headache in just one mon.

Regardless, I think there's not much need to discuss specific mons at this point that can handle Dugtrio and stall. There clearly are some that do tackle stall to an extent even with Dugtrio, and while such strategies exist it's more of a matter of choice to not use them and think Dugtrio is totally broken IMO.

What I was talking about is you mentioning Keldeo as a Stallbreaker that doesn't lose to Dug. Then you say "Sure if a Stallbreaker can't break proper Stall, it's not a good Stallbreaker" You mention Dugtrio as an element of Stall and any mon that loses to it isn't a proper Stallbreaker under your logic. Well assuming we're talking about proper Stall (as everyone has already mentiones Sab/Chan/Skarm/Toxa/Unaware/Dug, a mon that just gets constantly walled and has no means of breaking any component of this core isn't a Stallbreaker. Let's have a look at some Stallbreakers: Hoopa, Lele, Bulu, the niche Toge. All of them have ways of beating every single member on Stall and that's what makes them effective Stallbreakers. If we considered a mon that needs 2/6 mons on Stall gone a Stallbreaker then half of the tier would be considered a Stallbreaker. SubCM Keldeo is arguably Keldeo's worst set this gen and its matchup against Stall is even worse that last gen's.

 

[volx757]

Quag loses to Bloom Doom. Toxapex loses to Earth Power. Gliscor loses to Magma Storm + Bloom Doom. Alomomola loses to Bloom Doom. Tentacruel is not viable and loses to Earth Power.

Here is the Heatran set because you're clearly answering me without knowing what you're talking about: http://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/heatran/

I'm done talking with you guys. I have no patience to discuss with people that always bring shaky, irrelevant arguments. Sorry and good continuation.

Ok sorry tho I'm not done.

So it's offensive tran you're worried about and not stallbreaker. Well you thought stallbreaker tran was easy to wear down? Let me tell you about tran with no recovery whatsoever.

It's not gonna get to switch in that many times. Sure, there's a solid chance it'll get it's z-move off on the mon it meant to, there's also a solid chance it won't. Z-moves introduced a whole new layer of prediction to the meta, and no poke or playstyle is exempt from this.

Chansey actually has an easier time with this variant, as well, as it doesn't have to worry about being toxic-trapped.

Between EHs, chip damage, needing to hit predictions, needing to hit magma miss, and the move Protect (u should run protect on stuff), tran doesn't have a very easy time against stall. Also all you need to do is make them waste BloomDoom on zapdos or chansey or skarm (or protect), and your bulky waters are back to being full on counters.

 

[pika pal]

Quag loses to Bloom Doom. Toxapex loses to Earth Power. Gliscor loses to Magma Storm + Bloom Doom. Alomomola loses to Bloom Doom. Tentacruel is not viable and loses to Earth Power.

Here is the Heatran set because you're clearly answering me without knowing what you're talking about: http://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/heatran/

I'm done talking with you guys. I have no patience to discuss with people that always bring shaky, irrelevant arguments. Sorry and good continuation.

I think you and they are talking about two different sets entirely, because the set in question for their arguments appears to be the "Bulky" set on the dex, which has Taunt and Toxic as non-negotiable and Magma Storm as a slash (albeit the best one most likely). Their calcs list Leftovers, so I doubt they're discussing the Bloom Doom carriers. I don't think it's a matter of not knowing what they're saying so much as outright talking about two different sets.

And I should say, that closing statement kind of shoots your arguments in the foot. No matter how legitimate your points are, personal attacks will not make the opposite side receptive to what you're saying.

 

[Jojobobo]

What I was talking about is you mentioning Keldeo as a Stallbreaker that doesn't lose to Dug. Then you say "Sure if a Stallbreaker can't break proper Stall, it's not a good Stallbreaker" You mention Dugtrio as an element of Stall and any mon that loses to it isn't a proper Stallbreaker under your logic. Well assuming we're talking about proper Stall (as everyone has already mentiones Sab/Chan/Skarm/Toxa/Unaware/Dug, a mon that just gets constantly walled and has no means of breaking any component of this core isn't a Stallbreaker. Let's have a look at some Stallbreakers: Hoopa, Lele, Bulu, the niche Toge. All of them have ways of beating every single member on Stall and that's what makes them effective Stallbreakers. If we considered a mon that needs 2/6 mons on Stall gone a Stallbreaker then half of the tier would be considered a Stallbreaker. SubCM Keldeo is arguably Keldeo's worst set this gen and its matchup against Stall is even worse that last gen's.

As I mentioned, not every stall team will be running Toxapex and Clefable, and when you consider it from that perspective it can be considered a Stallbreaker. However, you're right, I was perhaps a little zealous in labelling it a Stallbreaker as a Stallbreaker should be good at handling most stall variants, even so if you weaken Clefable or Toxapex it can certainly do that job. As I said before, I think there's been enough discussion on Keldeo already, so I think it's best to leave it here.