CAP 2 Smogon "Create a Pokemon" Part Deux: Poll 5

[Urza]

I think the best thing to do at this point would be a clicky poll with the top three...they're all within ten of the lowest tally with or without counter-votes, the nearest after that is a solid 22 points behind. not easy to make up. it's also important to note that with or without counter voting, we've established a top three. so no one can protest that the top three were selected from favoritism.

just my two cents.

 

[Hyra]

I don't think that's fair to say Hyra. Although I was one of the counter voters, I did not vote for FSS just because he wrote a lot. I took the time to read through every spread, and I did consider both Rhykune's and KoA's spreads before FSS.

Honestly, before this, I didn't really remember Rhykune from anywhere in particular. On the other hand, FSS came up with the ever successful GrowthTran combo and Endeavor Rampardos, both of which I enjoy battling with and against. His analysis was very clear, and it explained everything with the level of detail that is getting harder and harder to find these days. I think he deserves the win for going "the extra mile", so to speak. Of course, I'm sure most everyone put in as much work into research the "best" base stats, and perhaps some people put in more, but, to me, FSS was the best presented and the most professional. This is all just my opinion, but that was enough for me to side with FSS over the other spreads.

In case this was tl;dr, I just don't want anyone to think I voted in this poll with the assumption that "the longest must be the best". I tried to put as much effort into my choice as the rest of you.

but your method still defeats the entire point of polling this way. You can't just disregard the other options. You were supposed to vote in the order you want them to win. I highly doubt you want Lord Sunday to win if your favorite is FSS. In fact, you even state this and then choose to ignore it and still vote against the style of the poll. It just sounds like bad sportsmanship.

 

[DougJustDoug]

Agreeing once again. And I think a good margin to end this kind of poll is when 24 hours passes after a vote? Anyone disagree?

And I am considering barring the two counter votes, if they caused a great change. Can someone do the tally without those two votes being included? If the change is basically those two votes are the only thing changing the winner, I might consider removing them.

That's a lot of "dead time" before declaring the poll closed. If votes just trickle in every 12-16 hours, it could really drag out the poll for quite a while. I think the mini-mod should monitor the pace of voting. When it slows down, the mini-mod can give a "last call" with 12-24 hours notice.

As for barring the votes, we need to be careful on that. The two voters were simply gaming the system to their advantage. They were open and honest about it. I don't think we should punish them for exploiting the rules. Other people might have done the same thing, but did not disclose their motives. We really have no idea how the vote would have ended up without counter-voting, since we don't know all the counter-votes to a certainty.

We shouldn't "reward" those that were more devious than others. Maybe they weren't devious -- just lazy. That's an even less appealing trait to reward. At the very least, the known counter-voters were actively participating in the process. They were paying so much attention, that they discovered an exploitable loophole. Throughout all these polls, we've been trying to encourage active participation, and discourage "drive-by click-voting". Don't get me wrong, we shouldn't cheer counter-voting and applaud them for skewing the results. But, banning their votes doesn't seem like the right solution.

This was a new thing, and we've learned a valuable lesson. Next time, we can do better. For now, perhaps a quick run-off click vote should be done for the top three.

 

[Hyra]

That's a lot of "dead time" before declaring the poll closed. If votes just trickle in every 12-16 hours, it could really drag out the poll for quite a while. I think the mini-mod should monitor the pace of voting. When it slows down, the mini-mod can give a "last call" with 12-24 hours notice.

As for barring the votes, we need to be careful on that. The two voters were simply gaming the system to their advantage. They were open and honest about it. I don't think we should punish them for exploiting the rules. Other people might have done the same thing, but did not disclose their motives. We really have no idea how the vote would have ended up without counter-voting, since we don't know all the counter-votes to a certainty.

We shouldn't "reward" those that were more devious than others. Maybe they weren't devious -- just lazy. That's an even less appealing trait to reward. At the very least, the known counter-voters were actively participating in the process. They were paying so much attention, that they discovered an exploitable loophole. Throughout all these polls, we've been trying to encourage active participation, and discourage "drive-by click-voting". Don't get me wrong, we shouldn't cheer counter-voting and applaud them for skewing the results. But, banning their votes doesn't seem like the right solution.

This was a new thing, and we've learned a valuable lesson. Next time, we can do better. For now, perhaps a quick run-off click vote should be done for the top three.

I understand that, but adding a click vote to the end of this basically means this was worthless. It's been agreed that it wasn't, so why should we make it worthless? Ugh... Why must there be a way to exploit every poll option?

 

[Time Mage]

As for barring the votes, we need to be careful on that. The two voters were simply gaming the system to their advantage. They were open and honest about it. I don't think we should punish them for exploiting the rules. Other people might have done the same thing, but did not disclose their motives. We really have no idea how the vote would have ended up without counter-voting, since we don't know all the counter-votes to a certainty.

This.

I don't think the two counter-votes should be discarded. At the time they did it, that wasn't against the rules, they just did what they thought it was the best for the one they were rooting.

I say let's just learn from the experience and don't repeat this mistake again, but let's count all the votes.

 

[Hyra]

I'll be moving this thread on tomorrow afternoon/evening. So far it looks like FutureSuperStar will win, but that might change by that time tomorrow (people counter vote against him). Not that I am wishing for that to happen, but it seems to be the only way for people to differentiate the front spreads enough.

There will not be another poll on this because even those who didn't put the top 3 at the front had an effect on their placement (and can still change their votes, these are not meant to be set in stone until the end.) Now, I don't want you all changing your votes to strategic voting (because then it wouldn't be very strategic anymore), but if you are really upset with someone winning you can lower them on your list.


Not sure why I'm saying all that. But one of the points of next voting is that you can change it.

(Anything in the post is subject to change because I really have no clue what I am saying right now)

 

[futuresuperstar]

Also, do not forget the fact that while those two "counter-voted," they still wanted me to win. Nulling out the votes nulls two huge supporters, and in a match where there are only so many "devout" supporters to go around against a good eight other competent people, that's a really harsh punishment. It's like saying because they "counter-voted," their decision as me as their first choice is *also* effectively nulled.

I still think this goes back to the idea of the poll. When you have a competition between nine people's ideas, and everyone "tiers" them from favorite to least favorite, there are always problems. My second and third favorite may be "okay," but I really want my first favorite to win. So, I "vote" for my favorite. But, what good does voting for my favorite do if I have to even give points to my sixth favorite?

Either way, I don't want to feel like I "won" this "unfairly," yet, I still don't feel like it's fair to have votes for me taken away based on the strategic countering these votes displayed toward my competition. So, I don't really know what to do ... I really appreciate your compliments, though, Protoman. I had no idea anybody else ever saw my Endeavor Rampardos topic.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

[semi-sarcasm]Can I change my vote to counter-vote FFS lol XD[/semi-sarcasm]

 

[futuresuperstar]

Okay. Hyra, I have a solution for you. I have the perfect solution -- at least, I think I do.

Next time, what you should do is do this in the exact same fashion, ranking your favorite to least favorite, and have these "votes" sent to your via private message. No tallies, no visible votes, no nothing. Just a bunch of people honestly letting you know what they want. Maybe have one or two highly trusted individuals "check" you to make sure that you aren't secretly manipulating their votes, for insurance purposes, of course. Then, reveal the top three. Then, between these three, have some sort of Hurt / Heal contest, where you can give a point to one and take away a point from another, while leaving one untouched. The one with the most points -- essentially, the largest scale of heals to hurts -- wins. This way, the top poll is public and is *largely* based on counter-voting, an all-out root for your favorite of the three, while the preliminary rounds can be held in secret.

There are many ways you could twist this around, but I think the number one thing is just to make the votes secret, in any way possible. Even a poll where the options are not visible could suffice.

Just brainstorming.

 

[Rhykune]

The problem with that idea is that people already know who the ones to watch out for are. So this would not stop counter voting.

 

[futuresuperstar]

It would at least hinder it, I would think.

EDIT: For a future poll, of course, not this one.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Edit: Beaten by FSS

Personally speaking, I don't have any grudges againest FSS and/or Rhykune for winning this thing. I just glad that my stat actually made it to some great number as #3/#2. Seriously, last "Create-a-pokemon" My stat died like a unwatered flower.

 

[DougJustDoug]

I'm fine if Hyra wants to wrap this up and chalk up any inconsistencies to "Live and learn". It doesn't sound like any of the Big Three are hardcore about fighting to the bitter end over it. Regardless of which spread wins, it's going to be a good, popular spread. Congrats to FSS, GT, and Rhykune on making great stat lines for our new pokemon!

 

[Sunday]

Like Hyra really wants more PMs clogging up a 50 pm max inbox...

 

[eric the espeon]

i say we have learnt how to do it next time, but for thins time we should do a clicky poll rarther than have a undisided result that could be argued is wrong.

 

[Hyra]

i say we have learnt how to do it next time, but for thins time we should do a clicky poll rarther than have a undisided result that could be argued is wrong.

A clicky poll takes all the work this did, says screw you we feel like letting people who don't read or really care decide. If they cared enough about the outcome they would have voted. The bare minimum effort this takes is listing all nine spreads and just putting your favorite at the top. The next tier of effort is counter voting, and finally we have taking the time to list them in the order you would like them to win. A clicky poll is like having the American Revolution, but then allowing the president to rule for life.

Anyways, I'm just going to let those votes go. But for the next thread, there will be no public posting of totals until the end when I tally them. I feel that was the real downfall of this poll. The next poll should be up sometime tonight, but homework might prevent me from getting to it.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Waitt....what is the next poll and who won? Rhykune(no counter votes added) or FSS(counter-votes added)? I have like a semi-short term memory lol

 

[futuresuperstar]

Is the next poll going to posted?

 

[Sunday]

Bumpity. Hyra this is dying time to move it along a bit.

 

[KoA]

Please? ;o

 

[DougJustDoug]

I'm sure Hyra has RL interference.

There hasn't been a vote on this thread in almost 4 days. There hasn't been any meaningful progress in the art thread for 4 days. That's a long dead time for a project that has been continuously active on almost an hourly basis from the very beginning, dating back to the Syclant project.

Yawn......

 

[eric the espeon]

hyra, not complainging but whats going on? can you start the next poll soon please?

 

[KoA]

Oh right, RL.

Well, I'll just wait for Hyra to return again.

 

[eric the espeon]

whats RL?

 

[tennisace]

Real Life i.e. hyra has better things to do than manage a create-a-pokemon thread. hyra, take your time. we all understand that your busy.