Lower Tiers Stadium OU Hub

[Enigami]

Credit to Force Fire for these amazing Stadium model PNGs! Banner by me.
| Viability Rankings | Strategy Dex | Sample Teams | Mechanics & Beginner's Guide |​

With the Viability Rankings established and the Global Championship and RoA Spotlight behind us, it seems like a good time to open up this thread. Here you can discuss anything pertaining to Stadium OU, such as teams, interesting sets, metagame trends, replay analysis, or just general opinions. This format has only recently gained a "reliable" simulator in the recent updates to Pokemon Showdown, so the current format can be seen as quite new.

Thread Rules
• Do not ask basic questions here, go to the Simple Question Simple Answer thread for that.
• No one-liners, contribute to the discussion at hand.
• If posting a replay, explain what makes it significant, etc
• Posts should be related to Stadium OU and not deviate from the standard ruleset.

Stadium OU Ruleset

• Stadium Sleep Clause - A player cannot put two of their opponent's Pokémon to sleep at one time. Run innately by Stadium itself, only it also counts an opposing Pokemon using Rest as well. This doesn't affect its activation, so multiple Pokemon can be resting at one time.
• Freeze Clause - A player cannot freeze two of their opponent's Pokémon at the same time. All effects of moves that would cause freeze are prevented from taking effect while Freeze Clause is active. This is run innately in Stadium.
• Self-KO Clause - In the event a Pokémon KOes itself with Self-Destruct or Explosion and the use results in a tie, the user automatically loses.
• Species Clause - A player cannot have two Pokémon with the same National Pokédex number on a team. For example, you cannot have 2 Koffing on your team.
• Evasion Clause - A Pokémon may not have the moves Double Team or Minimize in its moveset.
• OHKO Clause - A Pokémon may not have the moves Fissure, Guillotine, or Horn Drill in its moveset.
• Endless Battle Clause - In the event of an endless battle, a draw is called.
• Tradeback Clause - Tradeback moves from GSC are not allowed.

For resources, review the RBY Resource Hub.

Some starter prompts:

• Any thoughts on Team Preview and the strategies it can provide? Eg. Intel for Zapdos/Rhydon teams, lead prediction, etc.
• Thoughts on Substitute? Experienced players tend to see it as an interesting twist that gives the metagame a strong identity, while others believe it's broken and should be banned.
• With the rise of RestEgg, Exeggutor has taken a strong position in the metagame. Do you think it will stay that way, or do you think it will gradually drop off as the metagame adapts?

To crack things off, I'm interested in two Pokemon that (in my opinion) got surprising high placings on the Viability Rankings. I personally think that Golem and Jynx are just not very good Pokemon.

Pretty much everything went wrong for Golem besides its critical hit rate being amped up. Substitute and Team Preview make Exploding with it a very difficult prospect: if the opposing team has Gengar, Rhydon, or other good absorbers, the player is going to be much less inclined to expend them, as they will want to save them to switch in on predicted Explosions. A similar situation can be seen with Zapdos teams, as they will now never bring it in at all knowing full well that they lose momentum for doing so: Golem has much less opportunity to switch in and do its job. All of that being said, Rhydon is the better Pokemon by a country mile, not only doing better than Golem stat-wise except in Speed, but being drastically boosted in viability by Substitute directly buffing something it was already doing extremely well. I cannot fathom why people use Golem in a tier that has only nerfed it while buffing a Pokemon known to outclass it in almost every scenario. If you want a Self-KO move user, BoomLax is right there and even does the role far, far better.

Jynx, on the other hand, ends up making Team Preview very predictable while sleep has catastrophic nerfs in the 0-3 turn duration and Rest counting in Stadium's Sleep Clause. In regards to the sleep nerf, you effectively have a 50:50 chance of getting the cursed 0-1 turn wake while 2-3 is kind of whatever against some Pokemon. While Golem is at least usable for Explosion and better Rhydon team matchups (I guess?) I genuinely see no reason to use Jynx over most other Pokemon. Unless it has some serious adaptation for Lovely Kiss dying off, it seems like it'll drop off extremely quickly. Reviewing the Spotlight Tournament usage stats, all 6 had Lovely Kiss and the win rate overall was middling. If we look at the Global Championship usage stats, we have 42 Jynx uses, ~79% of which revealed Lovely Kiss, with a ~39% win rate overall and a below-average win rate when using Lovely Kiss itself. Every replay I've seen bar a very small minority have it basically choking on air.

I also like the rise in viability that Persian and Kangaskhan have experienced with the revamped Substitute. The Hyper Beam nerf is inconsequential overall, as Substitute lets these two do so much: Persian can be a wincon while making Tauros more expendable, while Kangaskhan can pummel Chansey thanks to its ridiculous HP and thus the ability to absorb Seismic Tosses. They're so fun to play around with and I hope this upturn continues for the forseeable future, it's really cool. I also summon Ctown6 to maybe bring up that one really cool Kangaskhan set they were using in the Global Championship. I think it had Mega Kick or something?

In terms of those prompts...

Any thoughts on Team Preview and the strategies it can provide? Eg. Intel for Zapdos/Rhydon teams, lead prediction, etc.

I think Team Preview helps Stadium OU distinguish itself while making it more accessible for players with a passing interest in RBY. It keeps that newgen familiarity factor while introducing older mechanics at the same time. Additionally, it reduces variance that the lack of Team Preview can cause, such as surprise sweeps from things like Articuno or Zapdos. There flexible leads also adds some flavour: if you know they're doing a lead Thunder Wave sort of thing, use a fast Substitute or Snorlax, etc. Sure this is just generic stuff that those who play Team Preview gens know, but it's cool in the context of RBY, y'know?

Thoughts on Substitute? Experienced players tend to see it as an interesting twist that gives the metagame a strong identity, while others believe it's broken and should be banned.

I've noticed that the people who dislike Substitute are usually the ones that have not played the metagame for more than like, 15 games at most. While counterplay to Substitute was limited, it wasn't erased and oftentimes the users complained about actually suck at using it. For example, Substitute Alakazam is effortlessly PP stalled because it's forced to only run Psychic while also losing to Seismic Toss Chansey...I legit see that set as a noob killer at best. Starmie is in a similar boat, and Chansey can sometimes experience hardship as it has a slight case of 4MSS when using it. Substitute can certainly lengthen games but from what I've seen it's about the same as regular RBY on average.

With the rise of RestEgg, it has taken a place as a very strong Pokemon in the metagame. Do you think it will stay that way, or do you think it will gradually drop off as the metagame adapts?

Considering the metagame isn't intensely played and there aren't many other options for the walking palm tree, I can see RestEgg sticking around for a very long time. Stadium kind of broke this poor bastard's kneecaps: sleep nerf, Substitute, Explosion generally being a bit worse...despite this, it's adapted in the best way possible. I really like this new Exeggutor and I think it has a lot of further optimisation potential.

 

[Ortheore]

Tbh I really don't see any reason to run Jynx. More than any other pokemon, its viability is based on sleep, which is practically irrelevant in this format. Gengar is shit, but at least it has some defensive utility, so it can at least be a fringe mon (has almost no offensive potential lol). Egg would've plummeted off the face of the earth, but Rest suddenly being good (I think the loss of HB is probably the biggest factor for this) means that it's arguably even more prevalent than in RBY. I think if you're going to run sleep, you need to immediately be in a position to threaten to sweep/wallbreak as you're just not getting enough value out of sleep to justify the risk in going for it otherwise. Even then it's dicey, since the pokemon that match this description either get screwed by HB nerf (Bel/Venu) or rely on Hypnosis (Poli).

I think to characterise Golem as unviable is a bit harsh. I agree that stadium mechanics don't help it insofar as boom is a lot less safe, while Don still exists. That said, I think it's definitely usable, just not very good. It at least has a clearly defined role that is still somewhat useful, unlike Jynx, while arguably team preview helps it somewhat in that you know immediately whether you need to preserve it or if you're free to blow it up on something. I also think that saying that Don's Subs get substantially better is technically true, but the improvement is far less than what is experienced by every other pokemon, since Don is already immune to the most prominent status move in the game, limiting the benefit of Sub blocking status. With all that said, I don't want to try to argue that it's good, just that it's not as bad as Jynx

The biggest thing for me is that Electric types, especially Zap, feel soooooo much worse. Jolt does get functioning FEnergy which is cool, however the modified crit rates are a mild buzzkill, and more importantly Rest Egg being everywhere limits the set's potential. However, Zap gets absolutely nothing from Stadium's mechanics- Agility is much worse, and obviously both electric types get absolutely screwed by team preview, which dials their matchup dependency all the way to the max, since (Gol)Don players will know immediately to preserve it. Jolt>Zap imo.

I don't think Sub is broken, but it's a hell of a lot less fun to play with, at least for me. Sub Chansey fills me with rage.

 

[Ctown6]

Alright so I’ll add a few thoughts here to keep the discussion going an add some input.

first and foremost Jynx is in fact bad, possibly UU status once the time comes to make that tiering decision. I’ve played around in the builder with dropping Lovely Kiss, problem is Jynx doesn’t really have any good alternate options. Reflect+Rest isn’t enough to save it from being absolutely molly whopped by any physical attacker in the tier. Mimic is bad unless you are really lucky making it very inconsistent overall. It doesn’t have enough durability to make use of Ice Beam + Blizzard, which in theory could actually be nice if it stuck around.

The one saving grace Jynx has, is the absolute dominance of Eggy, currently being used more so than even Tauros, but more on that later. Problem once again is that with team preview no one in there right might will lead Exeggutor after seeing Jynx, Starmie and Zam are amazing options and yeah Jynx is just not good currently. Although freeze and jacked up STAB Blizz is always nice, so maybe someone will make it work at some point.

I don’t really feel a need to touch on Golem. PVK and Ortheore said plenty and yeah Rhydon is even more superior than it is in OU, unviable is a bit harsh but yeah it’s a lot harder to use than Don generally making it not worth it.

Exeggutor on the other hand, is a trend I do see continuing. A while ago, Zam wasleading so many games and clicking sub, now Egg is leading almost every serious game I’ve been a part of. Delphi showed me an interesting build that looked to Use Hypno as a lead to deter opposing egg, and save her egg for late game equipped with explosion. But I don’t see anything stopping egg, it’s just too safe and consistent. It gets off rest easily, and usually wakes easily to threaten you some more, spreads para easily and yeah this thing is great. Jynx not being around helps and Zapdos being used less is great as well.

To finish up I’ll speak on Kanga, Persian, and Kabutops.

First up I haven’t used Persian all that much, it just doesn’t feel worth it to me, it’s to frail and can’t switch in against anything, you might get a double or two per game, but the pace of stadium being so slow means, at least in my opinion, that having Persian and Tauros can really make the early game hard. Tauros of course being able to be used as a breaker, rather than a cleaner is great and can provide some serious offensive pressure, so I think it’s an interesting concept thats definitely worth bringing every once in a while, if that’s your style. Getting up a sub with Persian can be terrifying especially in the late game with para support and things like Egg and Lax taking a nap. However once again when the time comes, this thing should be UU.

Kanga suffers from some of the same issues, as it’s really hard to switch in, you really have to get it in on a chipped/ Parlayzed Chansey or a sleeping Snorlax. However should you get in and should you get behind a sub, the output is nasty. The initial set looked like this:


Kangaskhan (F)
Ability: none
- Substitute
- Mega Kick
- Earthquake
- Body Slam

Mega Kick is particularly brutal thanks to these calcs:

Kangaskhan Mega Kick vs. Chansey: 344-405 (48.9 - 57.6%) -- 96.8% chance to 2HKO

Kangaskhan Mega Kick vs. Snorlax: 164-193 (31.3 - 36.9%) -- 78% chance to 3HKO

Kangaskhan Mega Kick vs. Exeggutor: 140-165 (35.6 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


Now of course you have to HIT. This move is really unreliable, but if Kanga cooperates you might just shit on your opponent. Also 103 HP subs are obviously good because Chans is commonly inclined to run Stoss. Again, make this thing UU. Hard to get on the field, accuracy issues, etc. you can probably drop Mega Kick but if your gonna use Kanga I just say fuck it. All or nothing for me.

Now for an underrated mon that needs to be talked about and needs to be respected. The great Kabutops. As time has gone on I’ve realized this thing is great. Not in like a lol kabu way, in like I will always consider bringing it to a tournament set. So many Lax running reflect + ice means unlike Persian and Kanga, you have a clear cut method to get on the field without risky doubles. You get up a sub for free on Lax, and although 3 slash’s will never KO. You can go for a surf crit or force an extremely predictable rest loop, or even better force it to switch out while sleeping.

Chuvas plot armor (Kabutops)
Ability: none
- Substitute
- Slash
- Surf
- Rest

Kabutops Slash vs. Snorlax on a critical hit: 142-167 (27.1 - 31.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Kabutops Slash vs. Chansey on a critical hit: 297-350 (42.2 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Kabutops Slash vs. Exeggutor on a critical hit: 120-142 (30.5 - 36.1%) -- 50.6% chance to 3HKO

This thing isn’t so powerful, it isn’t so fast, but it has an incredible niche and at the end of the day there’s nothing aside from Gengar that wants to switch in to take a Slash, and in my personal experience Kabu has been very good.

Shoutouts to Chuva for creating these sets with me, he deserves a lot of credit, homie is a menace

edit: I might touch on substitute later but I’m out of time lel

 

[Mikon]

Wanted to give some thoughts on some Pokemon and moves in the metagame.

Exeggutor
I really like Exeggutor here, and I'd even go so far as to call it a Big 3 member along with Snorlax and Chansey. It's the best (standard) lead in the metagame by a long shot, walls a bunch of offensive threats, wipes off the damage and remains relevant throughout the game with Rest, spreads paralysis, creates forced recovery turns with Double-Edge or blows a hole in the opponent's team with Explosion... It reminds me a bit of UU Hypno, though it's not quite as dominant. I think it has the potential to remain superb even if things like Cloyster start seeing more usage.

Tauros
I feel that Tauros is less mandatory here, even if it is still the best at what it does. It's hurt by the nerf of Hyper Beam and its lower critical hit rate allowing it to be walled more reliably and by more Pokemon. Tauros is still crippled by status of any kind and contributes 0 defensive utility to a team. Substitute is its compensation, and it is useful, but Tauros gets 2HKOed by half the metagame after using it, and running it means only being able to run one of Stomp, Double-Edge, Earthquake, and Thunderbolt, giving it more room to be walled.

Substitute
Don't run Substitute on these Pokemon, any good Stadium OU team is going to have several ways to wall these if you do. Physical threats (Tauros, Persian, Kangaskhan, Rhydon, Kabutops, etc...) should use it though. I don't believe Substitute is broken, really; most Pokemon that actually benefit from it have difficulty setting it up without predicted switches (thus it requires skill), and the HP drop is significant enough to make it easier to pick them off once the Substitute is gone (meaning you need to be able to assess when it's actually worth using). I also think only 1-2 Pokemon per team should be running Substitute, that being Tauros and occasionally the sixth mon.

Alakazam doesn't deserve 60% usage either, it's still worse than Starmie.

Focus Energy
Focus Energy isn't good; you will always need to find a free turn to set it up, and even after doing so, you have a significant chance to not score a critical hit even when you're using Jolteon. Moreover, these Pokemon are all very frail. If you want to use it, Nidoking is your best option; the Thunder Wave immunity and perfect coverage really do a lot for it, but it's still not something that should be standard by any means due to the inherent problems with Focus Energy and all the weaknesses it has and paralysis support it needs. Though this is unrelated, Focus Energy seems to have a lot more potential in Stadium UU, with Nidoking, Raticate, and Vaporeon all being relevant Pokemon who can use it.

Slowbro
Slowbro is great. Substitute is an underrated option for it, as it protects Slowbro from Thunderbolt critical hits, and even Snorlax can't break it reliably with a single Body Slam. Too many people leave this at maximum Special EVs. Run 216 Special EVs; if you don't, you won't be able to boost to +6 as you would go beyond 999.
EDIT: This is false apparently, you can boost to 999 at maximum Special EVs. You'd still probably want to run less EVs on the simulator as there is an inaccuracy where boosting beyond 1023 results in an overflow.

Zapdos
I don't think that Zapdos is bad here, or that it's worse than Jolteon. It loves Exeggutor's current omnipresence as well as Slowbro being much more common. Its attacking moves are just as powerful as ever. The loss of Agility is a shame, but it can run Substitute or Rest instead. Jolteon still doesn't want to switch into Thunder Wave, and now has to worry much more about Exeggutor. Rhydon is only very slightly more used here than it is in RBY OU, and while Golem has decent usage here, I'd expect it to decline in the future.

Cloyster
Cloyster
Ability: none
- Clamp
- Blizzard
- Explosion
- Rest
yes this is the rby ou set
People don't want to use Cloyster after the Clamp nerf, which is a shame; everything else is kind to it, particularly Exeggutor being on 90% of teams and running Rest. Tauros hardly runs Hyper Beam, so it essentially requires Thunderbolt to break through it. Snorlax is in the same situation, and cannot threaten Cloyster with its popular Amnesia set. It's another switchin for Rhydon in a metagame where Exeggutor is a worse check to it than you'd expect it to be, and it carries a powerful Explosion for Slowbro. Clamp's still a good option for it; being able to secure free switchins and deny recovery is a very worthwhile ability to have. This definitely warrants being OU and deserves much more usage than it's getting imo.

Gengar
Gengar
Ability: none
- Night Shade / Seismic Toss
- Thunderbolt
- Explosion
- Rest
Gengar is being underrated as well, though I'm not confident it's OU material. Neither Tauros nor Snorlax run Earthquake more than ~10% of the time, and it blanks Persian as well. I'd say Rest is not a bad option for it, as it lets Gengar remain healthy to check them as well as Starmie lacking Psychic and Cloyster. You're also capable of looping Chansey as it lacks the offence to 3HKO Gengar. Gengar's still got a solid critical hit rate of 18%, so it can be a good choice for fishing for critical hits with Thunderbolt on Slowbro. Needless to say, Explosion is nice as well, and Gengar having an immunity to it itself gives it unique utility.


Neither of these should be OU but I won't go into them as everything has already been said. It'd be nice to see Jynx especially drop and have a lead in Stadium UU that isn't named Hypno.

Lapras
Another Pokemon that should most likely be UU. I might go into this more once I've actually tested it.

Kangaskhan
I don't like Kangaskhan at all. Yes, you have 103HP Substitutes, but losing Hyper Beam is hardly "inconsequential" and you have to rely on the inaccurate, weaker Mega Kick instead. Its Attack is nothing impressive either and a team's going to be equipped to handle Tauros, which is far better than it, in the first place. Its Special is absolutely godawful, opening it up to being 2HKOed by decently powerful special attacks. Kangaskhan's Substitutes aren't unique to it either; Rhydon can do the same thing while having the most powerful physical attack in the game without a drawback, having the ability to switch in on Thunder Wave, and being able to stonewall Jolteon and Zapdos and absorb Explosions. Finally, Kangaskhan has no advantage over Persian against Chansey if it isn't running Seismic Toss, which it drops half the time, and Persian can ignore Reflect with Slash while it cannot.

Kabutops
I agree with Ctown on this, Kabutops looks very promising here from what I've seen and played.

Hypno
Hypno
Ability: none
- Psychic
- Thunder Wave
- Seismic Toss
- Rest
Hypno is slightly faster than Exeggutor, has Thunder Wave for fully reliable paralysis, and also Seismic Toss to force Rest more quickly than it can. This is why I think it could be a more efficient lead than it is. Obviously, you would never drop Exeggutor from your team for it, as Exeggutor's Ground and Electric resistances and better bulk are much more important overall. However, bringing both might be worthwhile, as the point of leading Hypno imo is to keep Exeggutor away from damage and status so it can check Rhydon better later in the game and free it up to use Explosion instead of Double-Edge. Hypno has a nice movepool, but I doubt it has room to run anything not in the set above. It's very untested though, so I might be proven wrong.

Not taking super effective damage from Ice and Flying makes Hypno's life easier against Starmie, Chansey, Zapdos, and paralyzed Cloyster.


lol

 

[Blue Cloyster]

I made an excel ages ago to work out crit rates in Gen 1 Stadium OU as I couldn't find them anywhere so as there's a spotlight I thought I'd post them now.

Stadium Critical Hit Rates

Speed Stat	Pokémon	Speed	Crit Chance	Crit Chance with High Crit Moves
378	Electrode	140	21.09	99
358	Aerodactyl, Jolteon, Mewtwo	130	20.12	99
338	Alakazam, Dugtrio	120	19.14	99
328	Persian, Starmie	115	18.65	99
318	Gengar, Tauros	110	18.16	99
308	Electabuzz, Kadabra, Rapidash, Scyther	105	17.68	99
298	Charizard, Dodrio, Fearow, Mew, Ninetales, Raichu, Tentacruel, Zapdos	100	17.19	99
292	Raticate	97	16.89	99
288	Arcanine, Haunter, Jynx, Primeape	95	16.70	99
284	Magmar	93	16.50	99
280	Pidgeot	91	16.31	99
278	Golbat, Kangaskahn, Moltres, Mr. Mime, Venomoth	90	16.21	99
272	Hitmonlee	87	15.92	99
268	Articuno, Golduck, Nidoking, Pinsir, Seadra	85	15.72	99
260	Gyarados	81	15.33	99
258	Arbok, Dragonite, Kabutops, Venusaur	80	15.23	99
254	Blastoise	78	15.04	99
250	Hitmonchan, Nidoqueen	76	14.84	99
248	Beedrill, Kingler	75	14.75	99
238	Butterfree, Cloyster, Dewgong, Magneton, Onix, Poliwrath, Victreebel	70	14.26	99
234	Seaking	68	14.06	99
232	Hypno	67	13.96	99
228	Flareon, Sandslash, Vaporeon	65	13.77	99
218	Clefable, Farfetch'd, Lapras, Tangela, Weezing	60	13.28	99
208	Exeggutor, Machamp, Omastar	55	12.79	99
198	Chansey, Muk, Vileplume	50	12.30	98.4375
194	Ditto	48	N/A	N/A
188	Golem, Marowak, Wigglytuff	45	11.82	94.53125
178	Porygon, Rhydon	40	11.33	90.625
158	Lickitung, Parasect, Slowbro, Snorlax	30	10.35	82.8125