Metagame SV Monotype Metagame Discussion [Indigo Disk]

[sasha]

i liked royals post so im gonna copy him ^_^.

wall of yap

How enjoyable do you find the current metagame (with 1 being the worst and 10 being the best)?
I gave around a 4-6 response (idr the actual number oops). I feel like not every archetype is viable, and there's no reason to not load one of Ground, Dragon, or Steel. Type and archetype variety mean a lot to me in terms of how diverse or flexible a meta is. In SM you could run HO easily along with your common balances etc. In SS you could run HO, Stall, whatever really. In SV I don't feel that same creativity and that's just because SV as a gen feels very different to me than the past few gens, and couple that with Monotype and everything feels really restricted.


How competitive and balanced do you find the current metagame (with 1 being the worst and 10 being the best)?
The better player is rewarded so I put a 9. It's not like people are going around matchup fishing and whatnot, the meta just isn't that competitive in the builder to me though I'm sure there are people who disagree with this.


Heat Rock - is fine and if you're running Heat Rock on your Sun Setter, you are very weak to hazards. Not only is your removal limited to Torkoal (unless you're using Moltres/Talonflame but lol), but if you don't have boots your Torkoal is taking a lot of chip and not coming in that much which means you aren't going to have access to Sun very consistently or easily. Sure, Ogerpon-H and Gouging Fire can abuse the Sun but like Royal said Sun this generation comes with the downside of giving your opponent a boost as well which you don't want and could be used against you. + I think Fire STAB is very outplayable. The only mon that is troublesome on Sun to me is Ogerpon-H which I still don't think is broken.

Ursa-BM - Very strong, would understand if people want it gone but I think it's fine and really overhyped. Ground is already just always going to be super strong and slapping Ursa on it is going to make it seem incredibly overpowered, but enough special sponges can get around it or cripple it with haze/toxic/whatever else. I've never built a team and been like yeah I lose to Ursaluna. Ursaluna is just like any strong breaker that will do its job when its team provides hazards and other means to break through a team. The issue with Ursa is its bulk imo and not that its a good breaker, it's just the combination of the two that make it really annoying but still don't find it broken.

Chien-Pao - At first I thought it was fine but over time I have started to think it's pretty overbearing, but still not super convinced on it yet though I could understand if it's suspected or w.e.

Kingambit - Coinflip ass mon and should be banned I really don't know why this mon is allowed or why people find it competitive. Every time I've voiced a complain I get chirping at me about "Just run wisp". Like I don't want to run wisp on every single team I make just so I don't instantly fold to one Pokemon. Like thats not healthy lol.

Ogerpon-H - I think calling this broken is copium asf but I won't say much else cuz I know people disagree. I can see this being really strong with setup + great coverage so I wouldn't be surprised if it goes to the chopping block but eh idk I guess I just haven't interacted with it enough so I'm pretty neutral.

Flutter Mane - I think is fine but in some games I feel like I'm really suffocated to play around it. I could understand it being gone and wouldn't complain but I think its chill. Specs means you scout one move and can pivot through coverage (though guessing wrong is rly detrimental) Non specs means it doesn't do enough damage to muscle through some walls and then it's scared out.

Gholdengo - Why

Archaludon - Is a good glue mon and I think it's fine. It's tough to get past through sure but like, Knock Off, any/most forms of special attackers, spikes, etc are all fine ways to get around it and they aren't constricting on builder cuz most teams are running these kinds of slow progress moves.

Zamazenta - Telegraphed asf mon and fine. Though sometimes I do get steamrolled by it and sometimes it's not really my fault, sometimes it is. Don't think its unbalanced though. I think if you get fished by an ID zama its skill issue (it was in my case at least)

I also agree with Royal that Espathra should be gone. Another uncompetitive fish mon that will just 6-0 in any good circumstance. Not every type has access to viable Dark types, and if they do, they can also just get Dgleamed give or take a few mons like Muk/Kingambit. Don't see why it should exist.

Hope everyone has a good day :).

 

[Scarfire]

Beaten to the punch by royal and sasha, but gonna give my takes as well on each question.

How enjoyable do you find the current metagame (with 1 being the worst and 10 being the best)?
How competitive and balanced do you find the current metagame (with 1 being the worst and 10 being the best)?
To be honest I cannot remember the exact number I gave yesterday but I believe both were about a 6. I don't have much to actually say about this, I do not find the meta particularly fun nor engaging enough to play or as freeing to build in to call it highly competitive. "Competitive" is always hard to define though, so the difference in these questions always seems to read as "do you like it" and "do you think its objectively good". To me the answer to both of those questions atm is not really.

Heat Rock and Ogerpon
I gave heat rock an unbalanced and should be given action, and Hearthflame a neutral. A lot of the Gouging Fire test focused heavily on Dragon, but even on fire I have not appreciated its impact, and that mainly comes from the banded sets enabled heavily by sun. The long sun turns allow CB Gouging to both function as a breaker and speed control, and its an unbearable pain for almost every type. The sun turns also definitely impact how much Hearthflame can get away with; gutting heat rock does make it so that it rarely gets to get in, SD, and then claim kills while sun remains up. I personally view removing heat rock as a net positive, and maybe could allow us to keep Hearthflame as a more managable mon (Don't like to speculate, but its hard not to when these 2 are intertwined.)

Ursaluna-BM
Unbalanced and I support action on this. This mons ability to be an unkillable wallbreaker is extremely scary, and as I've been laddering I've seen more and more people take advantage of the seemingly "free" item slot; been sniped by plenty of choples and yaches etc. Not knowing if you have to immediately respond to a Blood Moon nuke or a calm mind is also infuriatingly difficult, and its supported by one of, if not the best type in the tier rn. Bloodmoon is brutal and I think it should go.

Chien-Pao
I've come full circle on this mon; from thinking it should go, to thinking its not high priority, and back to having it at the top of my list. I heavily support Pao being gone asap, I do not like this mons impact in the tier and I think it has definitely overstayed its welcome.

Kingambit
This is something I'm not personally convinced on yet, but I understand why its so heavily hated. I gave it a neutral (I think) for now, could definitely see it as something more of an issue down the line but to me personally its low on the list; every time I build I find myself naturally having decent counterplay options to it. That being said, I've seen plenty of Gambits just not care about counterplay and win out games anyways, so again, I definitely get it. Want to point out, specifically Air Balloon Kingambit I've found extremely demonic in this tier.

Flutter Mane
Yeah, no. Leave.

Gholdengo
I gave this a fully balanced and would not support testing, but I do think its smth worth discussing. I ladder a lot of balance types/teams. Steel, flying, fat-waters, normal, poison, things of that nature. All the types I just mentioned get kind of obliterated by Gholdengo, being fully at the mercy of the set. That being said its never so dire that Gholdengo feels unwallable or unkillable, however similar to what I said about Ursaluna, there is lots of open options w/items that Gholdengo can use to snipe offensive answers. Balloon, Colbur, Kasib, using boots w/defensive sets to never die to anything short of an OHKO, etc. Definitely something I understand wanting here, but not an urgent tier-ruining presence I feel needs to be addressed.

Archaludon
Kind of don't want to speak on this mon much, soured after talking about it a lot during the Gouging test. Messed with it more, fought it a lot. Get why its annoying, don't see it as broken. Voted balanced and would not support testing.

Zamazenta
Voted to have this on last survey and this one as well. Beyond being locked to a pretty meh type, this mon is really demonic across the board into most types and I don't like how difficult it is in the builder, and even with counterplay options it somehow finds a way to cheese by (kinda like gambit in that regard ngl). I don't think its presence is healthy by any means and don't see a future with this thing in the tier, but similarly to Gambit I don't think its top priority rn. Voted it as somewhat unbalanced.

has been brought up a lot but I just need to see it have actual results before passing some kind of verdict; I agree that its a cheesy uncompetitive mon but its hard to justify hammering out something on a type with like no usage.

 

[Time Waster]

I'd like to give some thoughts as a ladder player. If you agree or disagree that's cool because we all want to improve the tier in our own ways.

This tier is pretty fun to play but some of the top threats feel a bit ridiculous and I think that limits things. At least Bax is gone now though. Generally competitive as well as long as you're loading a type that's decent but there will always be monotype moments.

Gouging in sun is an absolute nuke even with speed booster and Hearthflame is also incredibly strong. I don't see the reason to keep this when damp and smooth rock were banned. Speeds not as high with these guys but the damage output is crazy. Potentially giving a proto boost isn't a significant enough downside and half of those mons are pretty bad. Tusk and Flutter are common but still.
A hyper beam without a recharge on something this physically tanky is really stupid. At least its spdef is bad before it boosts and vacuum wave isn't very strong unless super effective. Moonlight isn't the most consistent healing for ground teams but the fact that it even has a healing move is funny. I think it should be suspected.
This thing could just be quick banned and I think it would improve things. Really capable of demolishing almost anything depending on the set. Can't guarantee to revenge kill it either because of its speed and shard/sucker. I don't see what it adds other than power creep and to make some types struggle even more.
I get why people don't like it but I've never had a big issue with it. There's a lot of fighting coverage around and Gambit's coverage is good but not amazing. Heavily relies on sucker punch too when status and subs are not uncommon things. Still, fallen 5 damage is obscene and I think enough people complain about it for it to be suspected at some point.
I think this would be a lot easier to handle without heat rock. Fire/Grass is great but 8 turns of sun is really what makes it feel crazy to me. Mold breaker is obviously an amazing ability and its significantly better than the other forms. Definitely the strongest Ogerpon and I can see arguments for it being a problem. I wouldn't suspect this without removing heat rock first though.
Specs is super scary and it has tons of coverage. However, it is extremely frail physically and very vulnerable to priority. I think a lot of types have answers for it now and don't think this is the biggest issue in the tier. If Gambit goes I think this will probably follow though.
I've never had a single issue with it and I've never seen anyone complain about it in monotype. I don't see why it was on the survey. No complaints, I just don't get it.
It's a good tank and utility mon. There are plenty of special attackers to hit it hard and its damage output is not crazy. I don't think this enables Dragon to be overpowered either, especially with Bax gone. I've seen some people complain about it but I don't see a problem with it. It's not a trade monster without electro shot.
ID Press is very capable of destroying teams that rely on physical attackers but enough types have answers. Banded is very fast and tanky but the damage output is fine.
It's definitely a cheese mon but I don't know if its banworthy just because it's limited to Psychic. I think this would have been banned already if it were on a better type, whatever that means.

Shoutouts to grass being total garbage even when many consider ground to be the best type. Ogerpon can't even save it and that's really sad. I think electric takes the spot for absolute worst at least. No Koko is no bueno.

 

[DaRotomMachine]

Thought I'd give some thoughts as a ladder player. If you agree or disagree that's cool because we all want to improve the tier in our own ways.

This tier is pretty fun to play but some of the top threats feel a bit ridiculous and I think that limits things. At least Bax is gone now though. Generally competitive as well as long as you're loading a type that's decent but there will always be monotype moments.

Gouging in sun is an absolute nuke even with speed booster and Hearthflame is also ridiculously strong. I don't see the reason to keep this when damp and smooth rock were banned. Speeds not as high with these guys but the damage output is crazy. Potentially giving a proto boost isn't a significant enough downside and half of them are pretty bad. Tusk and Flutter are common but still.
A hyper beam without a recharge on something this physically tanky is really stupid. At least its spdef is bad before it boosts and vacuum wave isn't very strong unless super effective. Moonlight isn't the most consistent healing for ground teams but the fact that it has a healing move is funny. I think it should be suspected.
This thing could just be quick banned and I think it would improve things. Really capable of demolishing almost anything depending on the set. Can't guarantee to revenge kill it either because of its speed and shard/sucker. I don't see what it adds other than power creep and to make some types struggle even more.
I get why people don't like it but I've never had a big issue with it. There's a lot of fighting coverage around and Gambit's coverage is good but not amazing. Heavily relies on sucker punch too when status and subs are not uncommon things. Still, fallen 5 damage is obscene and I think enough people complain about it for it to be suspected at some point.
I think this would be a lot easier to handle without heat rock. Fire/Grass is great stab but 8 turns of sun is really what makes it feel crazy to me. Mold breaker is obviously an amazing ability and significantly better than the other forms. Definitely the strongest Ogerpon and I can see arguments for it being a problem. I wouldn't suspect this without removing heat rock first though.
Specs is super scary and it has tons of coverage. However, it is ridiculously frail physically and very vulnerable to priority. I think a lot of types have answers for it now and don't think this is the biggest issue in the tier. If Gambit goes I think this will probably follow though.
I've never had a single issue with it and I've never seen anyone complain about it in monotype. I don't see why it was on the survey. No complaints, I just don't get it.
It's a good tank and utility mon. There are plenty of special attackers to hit it hard and its damage output is not crazy. I don't think this enables Dragon to be overpowered either, especially with Bax gone. I've seen some people complain about it but I don't see a problem with it. It's not a trade monster without electro shot.
ID Press is very capable of destroying teams that rely on physical attackers but enough types have answers. Banded is very fast and tanky but the damage output is fine.
It's definitely a cheese mon but I don't know if its banworthy just because it's limited to Psychic. I think this would have been banned already if it were on a better type, whatever that means.

Shoutouts to grass being total garbage even when many consider ground to be the best type. Ogerpon can't even save it and that's really sad. I think electric takes the spot for absolute worst at least. No Koko is no bueno.

TBH this is kinda what my thoughts are as well
I still don't get why Chien Pao hasn't been suspected yet.

 

[Pengairxan]

Well since people are dropping what they voted, I should probably do the same. (Note I did mine after I just woke up after 4 hours of sleep yesterday, so my stuff may be wack)
Enjoyment/Competitiveness.
As of right now, I don't find the metagame that fun but I do think it is in a somewhat balanced state overall (I think I put down a 5 and 8, I'm already forgetting)
The mons themselves.
Uhh, how do I say what I say without just repeating "Guys, this mon is stupid" constantly. I also consistently put down "Broke, outta tier now" for basically every vote, hoping to avoid a suspect on some of these fuckers.
I'll start easy.
There have been better posts for all of these than anything I could say, just read those. They're all dumb and stupid though, please disappear and never come back.
This mon just has the power to reverse sweep games and I would like to not run a fighting-type every single team I build. (That still loses to +2 Fallen 5 sucker punch anyway)
Lads, please forget about the 55 HP and Def for a moment and remember that this thing has base 135 Special attack and Speed with a dual offensive type that hits every relevant Pokemon in this metagame for neutral at worst. Its able also able to generally take a hit from most relevant special walls in the tier who in both the Fairy and Ghost matchups are generally having to deal with a bunch of other special attackers as well like Primarina and Enamorus, or Spectrier and Gholdengo and can just be to weak to handle FM when it does appear (Espessically if hit by Hatt's Yellow Magic or burnt by one of several wispers on Ghost like Dragapult, Horoark, Sinistcha or Skeledirge for the physical walls)
& I've started my peace on these two prior here: My Opinions on Bans March 21st, 2024
But TL:DR, if you don't pack a really bulky immunity or resist, GG, shake my hand, I got one free turn and won. These mons are both fairly cheesey and uncompetitive, espessically when they get a winning/neutral matchup, and need to go. Zama can also be CB which makes it even rougher since at team preview it is impossible to tell the difference between one or the other which can change a gameplan entirely.
For these next set, I've had more time to think than just, 5 minutes and more sleep so I would change my vote, but too late now.
I think I voted immedite tiering action on this, and I can see what 6 AM me was thinking, I don't like this mon and think its infurating to play against with Stamina + Body Press being an infurating combo and multiple solid switch ins to special mons on both its types (More so on Steel which has better bulk) I would still support tiering action in this mon, but just not immeditate
I think I may of voted that this mon was uncompeititve and would support tiering action, reminder, 4 hours of sleep and just woke up when I did the survey. Realistically I should change that but too late now. Still this mon can be infurating to play against and I wouldn't mind it seeing tiering action TBH, but it is not the mon that needs to go, its just annoying. (And if I had to pick one annoying mon to go, I would pick something else I voted for immeditie tiering action or because I'm a biased piece of shit.)
I forgot to put this on my survey, whoops. Its still easier to check than Hearthflame, but still painful to deal with.
I did put this on my survey, whoops. I still hate this thing, but I probably shouldn't of put in on the survey.

 

[Fírnen]

hello chat, it's been a while since I've posted here and I wanted to share what I put on the survey with you all.

current meta - 8. I want to preface this and the next one by saying that it is hard for me to quantify things on a numerical scale. I think the meta is really fun, the bax ban did a lot of heavy lifting. Overall there are a few things that stick out that could go to make the meta a bit more fun but I will share my thoughts on those later.

competitive - 7. Once again the bax ban did a lot of heavy lifting. A score of 7 is pretty good because I think it is intrinsically impossible for a 10 to happen

heat rock - balanced. The difference between Heat Rock and all of the other weathers (rain and sand moreso than snow) is that there are 0 ranked Pokemon with an ability that doubles speed under the weather. Sun also has the drawback that allows the opponent to utilize it as well, namely in the form of Protosynthesis. A lot of teams have an ancient Pokemon on it, and the sun user can get rolled by scarf tusk with an attack boost or bolt with a special attack boost.

- balanced (but would understand tiering action) - I think it's fine but I can understand wanting it banned. However I believe there is solid enough counterplay

- unbalanced. Not much to say that hasn't been said before but yea, I'd be happy to see it go

- unbalanced. Uncompetitive, no Pokemon can flip a game that should be lost as easily as Kingambit. Near impossible to switch into unless you have a fighting type (not a lot of teams).

- unbalanced. SD + Trailblaze is super broken, Mold Breaker to hit through stuff like Unaware and Flash Fire. Ogerpon-W also unbalanced and I want that one gone as well

- entirely balanced. I can't get behind wanting this thing banned in 2024. Pretty easy to play around definitely a non issue

- entirely balanced. Do not know why this is on here to be honest

- broken. I'm probably in the minority but I absolutely hate archaludon and want it banned the most out of anything. If you hit it with the wrong attack you basically lose. I think it's too strong and extremely unfun to play against.

- generally balanced. Zamazenta's gameplan is pretty telegraphed and can be played around. I think choice band is better tbh so if that were to be the set that people started using I might have a change of heart.

not on the survey but wanted to share my thoughts:
- uncompetitive and should be banned. Espathra isn't particularly broken or anything but I think it is textbook uncompetitive. Here are some replays of me skillfully earning victories. I don't think anyone would complain if espathra were to get quickbanned and I certainly don't think that it would do anything other than make the tier healthier.

- unbalanced and would happily support tiering action. if you don't have a ting-lu or an alolan muk you don't have a switch in. buffing luster purge was way too much, 50% chance to lower spdef is not right. I would swiftly vote ban on latios if it were to be suspected

lmao

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Luster Purge vs. 248 HP / 208+ SpD Articuno: 148-175 (38.6 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

*gets the coin flip spdef drop

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Luster Purge vs. -1 248 HP / 208+ SpD Articuno: 222-262 (57.9 - 68.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

this is assuming latios does the minimum amount of damage on the first luster purge (unrealistic)

it's kinda difficult for me to formulate my thoughts into posts without them just being word vomit but I wanted to post here since it's been a bit. sorry if it was hard to read and I'm sorry that some of my thoughts were kinda short, I just didn't have much to say that hasn't been said before. I'm looking forward to hopefully hearing from others soon with their thoughts.

tldr:
qb espathra (uncompetitive)
qb archaludon (pipe dream but I will be happy with a suspect)
suspect pao / gambit
keep an eye on latios and ogerpon h
the rest is fine

Concerning Archaludon, I'm not agree with what u are saying.
If u hit it dumbly and next being surprised to have its Bpress sweeping ur team, it's a playing issue.
Archaludon gives utility against Broken Pokemon:

• In Dragon Type:
  • Chien Pao can't sweep ur Dragon team next one SD, it may be the same for another physical ice Pokemon.
  • Dragon Mirror: U can't rely on Dpult Dragon Darts scarf to win it anymore (ok, Goodra-H and Gouging Fire are options too (even if Gouging can't really switchin like Goodra-H and Archa can).
• In Steel type:
  • Ogerpon-H can't 6-0 ur team with Archa because of its great physical bulk, like others physical fire sweepers.
  • Gouging-F can't beat ur steel team too because of Dpulse/Dtail + its physical bulk.

The thing with Archa, is it can be played with so many options which makes it difficult to predict, however, with teammates, u may predict the way it will be played (Scarf/Lefties Bpress/Offensive) are the 3 bigs ways to play it.

Item played in Dragon type

Items |
| Leftovers 80.166% |
| Chople Berry 9.072% |
| Assault Vest 4.960% |
| Choice Scarf 2.351% |
| Other 3.450%

Items played in Steel type

Items |
| Leftovers 56.666% |
| Choice Scarf 22.176% |
| Assault Vest 9.130% |
| Power Herb 5.535% |
| Heavy-Duty Boots 5.069%

And its movepool is pretty common according MArch Smogon stats

Moveset in Dragon type

Moves |
| Body Press 95.796% |
| Stealth Rock 86.712% |
| Flash Cannon 81.019% |
| Draco Meteor 71.473% |
| Thunderbolt 18.423% |
| Thunder Wave 11.593% |
| Dragon Pulse 5.532% |
| Foul Play 4.747% |
| Electro Shot 4.559% |
| Dragon Tail 3.433%

Moveset in Steel type

Body Press 76.809% |
| Draco Meteor 70.344% |
| Thunderbolt 54.278% |
| Flash Cannon 47.159% |
| Stealth Rock 46.699% |
| Aura Sphere 19.835% |
| Thunder Wave 18.655% |
| Dragon Pulse 16.357% |
| Electro Shot 9.822% |
| Dragon Tail 9.638% |
| Mirror Coat 6.475% |
| Protect 5.551% |
| Other 18.377%

With theses informations, if u build a team without this knowledge, in my opinion, it's hard to say it's broken like Chien Pao or Kingambit , but I agree with the fact Archaludon isn't a bad Pokemon like Goodra, it's pretty good and usefull in both type for different reasons.

Edit:
The fact it's annoying to play is because of teammates, especially to cover its weaknesses (Special wall, Ground/Fighting immunity mostly) but this kind of cores always existed in monotype since I play it from its debuts.

 

[Pengairxan]

- unbalanced and would happily support tiering action. if you don't have a ting-lu or an alolan muk you don't have a switch in. buffing luster purge was way too much, 50% chance to lower spdef is not right. I would swiftly vote ban on latios if it were to be suspected

I would just like to say one thing here quickly.
Alolan Muk is not a switch in. Specs Draco does 55% minimum. And on Dragon you can just switch out to your Garchomp or Arcahaludon and reposition Latios later. (I don't know what Psychic switches to, Indeedee to sack?)
Also locking into Specs Draco against both Types AMuk is on, its easier to lock into it because Specs Luster purge is shit into Dark. And on Poison it is because Geezing being needed for 3 different Dragon physical attackers and hazard removal.
Realistically its like Ting-Lu and AV Glowking (It takes less than 50%)

 

[RoyalReloaded]

Concerning Archaludon, I'm not agree with what u are saying.
If u hit it dumbly and next being surprised to have its Bpress sweeping ur team, it's a playing issue.
Archaludon gives utility against Broken Pokemon:

• In Dragon Type:
  • Chien Pao can't sweep ur Dragon team next one SD, it may be the same for another physical ice Pokemon.
  • Dragon Mirror: U can't rely on Dpult Dragon Darts scarf to win it anymore (ok, Goodra-H and Gouging Fire are options too (even if Gouging can't really switchin like Goodra-H and Archa can).
• In Steel type:
  • Ogerpon-H can't 6-0 ur team with Archa because of its great physical bulk, like others physical fire sweepers.
  • Gouging-F can't beat ur steel team too because of Dpulse/Dtail + its physical bulk.

The thing with Archa, is it can be played with so many options which makes it difficult to predict, however, with teammates, u may predict the way it will be played (Scarf/Lefties Bpress/Offensive) are the 3 bigs ways to play it.

Item played in Dragon type

Items |
| Leftovers 80.166% |
| Chople Berry 9.072% |
| Assault Vest 4.960% |
| Choice Scarf 2.351% |
| Other 3.450%

Items played in Steel type

Items |
| Leftovers 56.666% |
| Choice Scarf 22.176% |
| Assault Vest 9.130% |
| Power Herb 5.535% |
| Heavy-Duty Boots 5.069%

And its movepool is pretty common according MArch Smogon stats

Moveset in Dragon type

Moves |
| Body Press 95.796% |
| Stealth Rock 86.712% |
| Flash Cannon 81.019% |
| Draco Meteor 71.473% |
| Thunderbolt 18.423% |
| Thunder Wave 11.593% |
| Dragon Pulse 5.532% |
| Foul Play 4.747% |
| Electro Shot 4.559% |
| Dragon Tail 3.433%

Moveset in Steel type

Body Press 76.809% |
| Draco Meteor 70.344% |
| Thunderbolt 54.278% |
| Flash Cannon 47.159% |
| Stealth Rock 46.699% |
| Aura Sphere 19.835% |
| Thunder Wave 18.655% |
| Dragon Pulse 16.357% |
| Electro Shot 9.822% |
| Dragon Tail 9.638% |
| Mirror Coat 6.475% |
| Protect 5.551% |
| Other 18.377%

With theses informations, if u build a team without this knowledge, in my opinion, it's hard to say it's broken like Chien Pao or Kingambit , but I agree with the fact Archaludon isn't a bad Pokemon like Goodra, it's pretty good and usefull in both type for different reasons.

Edit:
The fact it's annoying to play is because of teammates, especially to cover its weaknesses (Special wall, Ground/Fighting immunity mostly) but this kind of cores always existed in monotype since I play it from its debuts.

it was just hyperbole, i dont actually believe hitting archaludon with a physical move auto loses the game, thats just how it feels sometimes and it's very frustrating to play against

 

[Vlarcheops]

Here are my thoughts:

Heat Rock: Yeah, I do Not think that Sun is up 8 dammed turns is that big of a deal. Sure there Are pokemon that can abuse it but there‘s always counterplay to it (IronPress Zama and Other bulky Pokemon versus Goughing and priority and Special attacks vs ceruledge)
Chien pao: as much as I Like this pokemon, it IS pretty problematic. It has Little counterplay such sa faster pokemon like Pult(specs, even hex), Zama(when you use fighting), swift swimmers and Sand rush pokemon to outspeed it, and priority of vaccume wave . Even then it has priority, And it can use either choice band or SD. Leaving with the true Counter being Zama.
Ursaluna-BM: I do Not see the problem with this thing. It has a weak sp def. , leaving it vulnerable to Special attacks (super effective, pokemon with great Sp. Att. and from specs) and its weaknesses are pretty common: water being a good type, fighting seeing great usage, dark having gren and meowscarada (and chien pao: to See if it will be banned), dragon having strong pokemon like latios, specs pult, kyurem and etc. Sure this non has vaccuum wave, moonlight and cm, but it is nothing groundbreaking. Plus his speed is an hinderance.
Ogerpon-H: I can see why this thing would be tedious to have: SD, Trailblaze and 1.2 boost to attack, however it‘s not like it is broken. With 110 Speed it gets outsped by pokemon like sneasler, valiant, Zama, Pao, Gren, Meow and Pult and They can threaten it in one way or another. Plus there are defensive walls like Arch, Pex, and G-Weezing stopping/hindering it.
Kingambit: Yeah, this thing needs to go! SD and 1.5 Boosts To All his attacks in some matchups are practically already won by the guy who uses it. 105 STAB priority is disgusting and kingambit has an amazing attack and solid bulk.
Flutter Mane: I am Not a big of this thing, to say the least. 135 Sp. Att. and Speed is absolute terrifing to Go against and his typings are too good. It online gets outspeed by Zama and Pult(who are weak against it).
Eve Swift Swim/Sand Rush pokemon Are dependent on their respective weather. Even if it has scarf, it hits so damn hard. Almost nothing Takes a special attack from its choice specs moveset.
Zamazenta: Sure it can be great in some matchups but it also has problems: ID BP Zamazenta is a liability against ghost types since heavy Slam is only a problem to mane and nothing else. Even in Fighting-Steel matchups it has no way dealing with dengo and Rocky Helmet Skarm. In Flying it doesnt do anything revolutionary to help its typing. Plus ID Press Zama gets walled by pex, dengo, sinistcha, ceruledge, zapdos, amoogus and Many more. Choice Band Zama is something that can be solid But not used enough. It struggles with the 4 Moveslot problem: It wants Heavy Slam for Fairies, Wild charge for Water and Flying, CC for Stab and either Crunch for ghosts or Ice fang for something like Gliscor. Plus CB Zama does not deal immensive damage and it can be hindered by hex dragapult and arch, pex and other bulky pokemon if it doesn‘t use the right move. Not to mention it loses the bulk of taking a Moonblast from Mane and Enamurous. It‘s balanced, nothing groundbreaking.
Gholdengo: Honestly, it is fine. Can be annoying, but not broken.
Archaludon: I have a Mixed feeling with this pokemon: it can be tedious with stamina, its disgusiting defense and typing, but on the other hand it is a pushover against special attacks because of its lackluster Sp. Def.
Espathra: you can keep pao, mane and Even gambit, but get this repulsing uncompetitive trash out of Here. CM + speed boost + stored power with EV spread to be defensively bulky. Need I say more?

 

[sasha]

i liked royals post so im gonna copy him ^_^.

wall of yap

How enjoyable do you find the current metagame (with 1 being the worst and 10 being the best)?
I gave around a 4-6 response (idr the actual number oops). I feel like not every archetype is viable, and there's no reason to not load one of Ground, Dragon, or Steel. Type and archetype variety mean a lot to me in terms of how diverse or flexible a meta is. In SM you could run HO easily along with your common balances etc. In SS you could run HO, Stall, whatever really. In SV I don't feel that same creativity and that's just because SV as a gen feels very different to me than the past few gens, and couple that with Monotype and everything feels really restricted.


How competitive and balanced do you find the current metagame (with 1 being the worst and 10 being the best)?
The better player is rewarded so I put a 9. It's not like people are going around matchup fishing and whatnot, the meta just isn't that competitive in the builder to me though I'm sure there are people who disagree with this.


Heat Rock - is fine and if you're running Heat Rock on your Sun Setter, you are very weak to hazards. Not only is your removal limited to Torkoal (unless you're using Moltres/Talonflame but lol), but if you don't have boots your Torkoal is taking a lot of chip and not coming in that much which means you aren't going to have access to Sun very consistently or easily. Sure, Ogerpon-H and Gouging Fire can abuse the Sun but like Royal said Sun this generation comes with the downside of giving your opponent a boost as well which you don't want and could be used against you. + I think Fire STAB is very outplayable. The only mon that is troublesome on Sun to me is Ogerpon-H which I still don't think is broken.

Ursa-BM - Very strong, would understand if people want it gone but I think it's fine and really overhyped. Ground is already just always going to be super strong and slapping Ursa on it is going to make it seem incredibly overpowered, but enough special sponges can get around it or cripple it with haze/toxic/whatever else. I've never built a team and been like yeah I lose to Ursaluna. Ursaluna is just like any strong breaker that will do its job when its team provides hazards and other means to break through a team. The issue with Ursa is its bulk imo and not that its a good breaker, it's just the combination of the two that make it really annoying but still don't find it broken.

Chien-Pao - At first I thought it was fine but over time I have started to think it's pretty overbearing, but still not super convinced on it yet though I could understand if it's suspected or w.e.

Kingambit - Coinflip ass mon and should be banned I really don't know why this mon is allowed or why people find it competitive. Every time I've voiced a complain I get chirping at me about "Just run wisp". Like I don't want to run wisp on every single team I make just so I don't instantly fold to one Pokemon. Like thats not healthy lol.

Ogerpon-H - I think calling this broken is copium asf but I won't say much else cuz I know people disagree. I can see this being really strong with setup + great coverage so I wouldn't be surprised if it goes to the chopping block but eh idk I guess I just haven't interacted with it enough so I'm pretty neutral.

Flutter Mane - I think is fine but in some games I feel like I'm really suffocated to play around it. I could understand it being gone and wouldn't complain but I think its chill. Specs means you scout one move and can pivot through coverage (though guessing wrong is rly detrimental) Non specs means it doesn't do enough damage to muscle through some walls and then it's scared out.

Gholdengo - Why

Archaludon - Is a good glue mon and I think it's fine. It's tough to get past through sure but like, Knock Off, any/most forms of special attackers, spikes, etc are all fine ways to get around it and they aren't constricting on builder cuz most teams are running these kinds of slow progress moves.

Zamazenta - Telegraphed asf mon and fine. Though sometimes I do get steamrolled by it and sometimes it's not really my fault, sometimes it is. Don't think its unbalanced though. I think if you get fished by an ID zama its skill issue (it was in my case at least)

I also agree with Royal that Espathra should be gone. Another uncompetitive fish mon that will just 6-0 in any good circumstance. Not every type has access to viable Dark types, and if they do, they can also just get Dgleamed give or take a few mons like Muk/Kingambit. Don't see why it should exist.

Hope everyone has a good day :).

After playing more and talking more with some people, I've changed my mind on some things on the survey

- Should be gone. I contradicted myself in my original post saying it "sometimes felt suffocating to play against" after saying I thought it was fine. I realized it's actually not really "sometimes" and is consistently frustrating/suffocating to play against as it has insane coverage and stats which isn't really an unknown feature of Flutter Mane. Last MPL it literally had a 100% usage rate on Ghost and Fairy teams combined and I know I'm treading dangerous grounds bringing up usage because usage does not correlate to how broken something is but like idk this mon just seems rly overbearing in hindsight and I feel like it's genuinely hard to cover in builder. People know there is no reason to ever skip out on using this mon ever and I feel like it points to the mon having literally 0 downsides at all besides like...potentially clicking the wrong move if specs and priority/scarfer, which is very little counterplay, as well as not consistent. Not even a frail mon either. Good special bulk and great behind screens which both Fairy and Ghost can reliably use so like xd

- Should also be gone, I personally don't find it that restricting as Flutter Mane but it feels really shitty to be instantly -1 or whatever Defense just by virtue of Chien Pao being on the field, neutralizing a lot of checks/defensive counterplay it should normally have. On top of that, when you consider shit like Band or SD and priority with both STABs, as well as very good coverage on top of said -1 Defense I am realizing that this mon is not okay and surprised it has not been suspected.

- Still a coinflip uncompetitive mon like unironically QB this and suspect one of the mons above imo or Ursaluna (cope btw). I don't like throwing around the word uncompetitive either because the thread went a bit OTT with the Sleep discussion because there wasn't enough usage or stats to show that Sleep is broken. But I think getting an insane damage boost just from you having fainted mons is horrible for a tier, especially when you couple Kingambit's weakness being it's slow speed, which should be a decently exploitable weakness, is now kind of ignored with Sucker Punch. The only times you are getting out of Sucker Punch annilhation is if you have a bulky Dark resist which aren't really that splashable or common on every team. Even then sometimes Kingambit is going to muscle through it anyway (Sneasler and Greninja owned by +2 5 Fallen Kingambit, Keldeo also owned with some chip. All mons that you would think are reliable Sucker Punch resists for Kingambit endgames) or can sack health to kill you with something else. Since Kingambit is genuinely a really bulky mon which pushes it even more over the edge. Forcing 50/50s on top of everything else I just mentioned is overboard for a mon imo especially in a format like Monotype where your defensive counterplay is already limited.

This gen has a lot of powercreep in which players are not required to actually do any work for the progress theyre given: damage boost on Kingambit, defense shred on Chien Pao, free Tspikes just by being hit with a Physical move on Glimmora, free boosts in Sun, etc etc. I could go on and on. It's really annoying to have to consider in builder but these 3 mons I listed above take it to the extreme in my opinion.

Don't make MPL play in this shit meta, ty.

 

[wkxkevin]

Ok, so I wasn't able to grind ladder enough to get top 50 but here are my thoughts. I will also comment on pokemon I often see people complain about.

I will have a priority scale for how dangerous I believe each mon is
1: Warrant quickban or needs to be the in the first few suspects
2: Dangerous but doesn't need immediate action, best if all scale 1 pokemon have had results before doing anything with these
3: Maybe wait for pokemon with scale 1 and 2 before doing anything, most aren't really any problem but I could see possible case for brokeness
4: Nothing needs to be done

(3): 8 turns of sun is very overbearing for many types and even types like dragon and rock, who resist fire, can take huge damage. For example, banded cinderace and 2hko offensive chomp under sun. It also boost bitter blade recovery for ceruledge allowing it to make use of its focus sash even in hazards. All that said, realistically, the only sort of sun abuse is abusing the boost to fire type damage. If we look at previous cases of rock bans, it's mostly caused by things like swift swim and sand rush which boost speed and remove the offensive counter play. Sun doesn't really have that problem because the only chlorophyll user is scovillain which is very difficult to fit. Hence why I can see the brokeness but I don't think anythin immediate needs to be done.
(1): I feel that those who don't think this is broken simply don't have sufficient experience. I don't mean this in a skill-issue way because as mentioned before, its brokeness only become apparent the more you play. On the surface, pao doesn't seem broken. It's similar to mane in that it's very frail, making it prone to priority, but very strong meaning oftern it ends up in a trade. However, over time, unlike mane, pao has managed overcome this issue. The pressure that pao poses is very high, compounded by the fact that at team preview, it's not always obvious what set it is, SD or CB. Even within these sets, the presence of one move can completely change an MU. For example, +2 succer punch can ohko scizor. The key is ice shard and succer punch. These 2 moves give pao priority of its own and allows it to combat traditional weaknesses of glass cannons. However, the most dangerous pao is the late gamer. Once a team has been weakened. A lot of team simply don't have the tools to deal with chien pao because slower pokemon simply die and faster pokemon are often weakened/frail enough to where ice shard/succer simply blows through.
(1): People complain about the move bloodmoon but in realilty if that were the actual problem, regular luna would also warant a ban as guts burn facade does more damage and has no restrictions. Both also have boosting moves to augment that obscene strength. However, think about what distinguishes bloodmoon from regular luna and that where we see the actual broken part of the mon: special attacker, mind's eye, vacuum wave, and MOONLIGHT. First, special attackers don't have to deal with stuff like rocky helmet, iron barbs, and rough skin, making slow chip very hard(I'll get to lognevity in detail later). Then mind's eye. This is a small change but having effectively scrappy makes your normal move more spammable. At last, what I consider to be the main issues. Vacuum wave gives priority and with this thing's bulk, faster priority simply cannot kill it. This also means that it can cercumvent one of regular ursaluna's main problems: you have to take a hit before fighting back. With this thing's strength, you can often finish off a lot of chipped pokemon very easily late-game. Then come moonlight. People don't talk about it but I believe this is the biggest reason bloodmoon deservese the ban. Regular ursluna's strength comes at the cost of very poor longevity. With flame orb, hazards, and contact damage, regular ursaluna is extremely prone to being passively weakened. On the other hand, Bloodmoon doesn't have to deal with that at all as you don't really mind status and moonlight heals off all the hazard damage. The most basic way to describe the moonlight on ursaluna problem is with something like corviknight. Although corv has body press, you can just heal off the damage and keep boosting with calm mind. Before corv can KO you, you have already boosted to the point where bloodmoon is an ohko.
+3 252+ SpA Ursaluna-Bloodmoon Blood Moon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corviknight: 366-432 (91.5 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
(2): The problem with this mon is simply reduced to its abillity. Think about ways we check threats, abillities play a lot in that. For example, mimikyu and heatran are helpless and something like dragonite has to watch out as the potential +2 play rough can certainly ohko and knock does a lot(if rocks are up you have to sack it). The only reason I can't put this at scale 1 is that the item restriction makes it very weak to hazards/passive damage and its prone to getting revenge killed by priority of scarfers if it doesn't have a trailblaze up. The only reason steel is even top tier despite this is because archaludon is very good check.
(2): I feel that playing around a kingambit and predicting the succer punch pattern feels like the ultimate display of skill in reading your opponent. However, the problem is with the maths. It's simply heavily not in your favor to perform all those reads. The other problem is the obscene bulk of this thing. For example, take types like psychic. It simply can't do anything against it. There are certainly a lot of ways to check it. For example, most gambit are not boots so hazards wear it down a lot. Second, substitute and burn are devastating. Also, I heard people mention how people need a fighting type on every team which not every has. That's not really true, you can use dark or fairy types and every good team imo should have at least one of these as well as other options to deal with it. However, those don't out weight kingambits bulk and obscene strength which very much so restrict the team builder.
(4): I'm sorry Pengair, sasha and Vlarcheops. I unfortunately don't see it. You guys talk about the 135 speed and spa, and that it had a 100% use rate in MPL. That statistic is not a valid reasoning for a mon's ban-worthiness. The main difference between flutter and pao is one that I just talked about, its extremely vulnerability to chip damage and priority. First, 90% of the time, you have to run a choice item, usually choice specs, because flutter's job is to walbreak with the amazing ghost and fairy dual stab. However, it still kinda has 4 moveslot syndrome because after the stabs, that last 2 moves are variable and you have to choose 2 to cover common spdef mons. Being choiced means you are very vulnerable to protect, priority and it's especially bad when it's vulnerable to basically every passive damage meaning your chances to wallbreak is severly reduced. Now, we consider non choiced, namely the HDB, sub+CM set because it seem to solve all of mane's problems. The problem is that it takes a bit to get started and although both fairy and ghost have excellent screens setters to make it easier, its paper thin defense severely limits its ability to get going.
(3): Zamazenta is a mon I don't think is banworthy but unlike flutter mane, I can actually see why people would want action to be taken. This pokemon is close to impossible to outspeed outside of scarf and weather speed boosts, and when your special attackers are weakened, this basically auto-wins the game. The main reason I never saw it as broken is that CB set is a late game cleaner and it's dealt with similarly to other late game cleaners with the exception that very little pokemon outspeed it without a scarf. As for the sub+ID set, you have to choose between crunch and heavy slam which forces you to sacrifice the ability to deal with one of ghost and fairy.
(3): The main argument behind people disliking this is it's ability which denies 99% of hazard removal and makes passively dancing around it impossible. It's movepool is also insane and its access to recover gives it surprising longevity. My problem with dengo is that you have to either be scarf or deal with a mid speed tier of 84. Yes, its spa is really high but too many pokemon outspeed and can revenge kill it if it's not scarf. If it is scarf, it's strong but relatively reasonable as you would deal with it similary to other strong choiced mons. However, I can understand the argument because, even though ghost doesn't always hazard, steel usually does and by the time you manage to get rid of dengo, you have already taken too much hazard damage and removing it usually won't help you that much.
(3): Ok, this is only one where I'm a bit biased because it's the only thing keeping my steel team together. Objectively speaking, it probably should be close to a 2. The main issue with this is that even though you know exactly what it's gonna do, it's somehow still very unpredicatable. It's great at setting rocks. It's high spa allows it to deal devastating damage with draco meteor and flash cannon. Hipsters can try their hand at power herb electro shot. However, the main problem is stamina and its combination with body press. The previous stamina pokemon is mudsdale. The reason mudsdale never caught on is that mudsdale is weak to water, grass, and ice, types that generally are special so stamina boost doesn't help it as much as it would like. However, lts look at archaludon. It's weak to ground and fighting, 2 types that are mainly physical attackers. This means, if it takes a super effective hit, it's most likely going to takes less from that hit afterwards. What this translates to is archaludon surviving hits it has no rights surviving. This coupled with body press and surprisingly decent speed makes it very unreasonable for many teams to deal with. It's main weakness is its spdef, as mentioned previously, meaning if it takes a strong special hit, it's pretty close to death. The problem is the mind games. Whenever you have a physical attacker out, you always have to consider the archa switch and if you click any damaging move and it switches in, you can't do much about it as if you ghost is weak or dead, most mons are going to take a decent chunk of damage. Another weakness is passive damage and the lack of reliable recovery. However, I felt that spamming protect on it to get every ounce of leftovers recovery was sufficient to keep healthy to check things. The ultimate question is: is the weakness to passive damage, lack of reliable recovery, and minimal spdef sufficient to counter-balance the extremely oppressive mind-games it induces. Personally, I think yes but I can very see the other side. One thing I will say though, is that it's not the most pressing matter at hand, but it is one we should pay a lot of attention on.
(3): I'll keep this one short, is CM + Protect + SP + Dazzling broken to the point where it's banworthy. Personally, I don't think so because generally speaking, psychic is not a good enough type for me to encounter this issue often. However, if we look at it cleary, most good types have a good steel type to contain the chaos. Even poison has alolan muk. However, the problem is that stored power sometimes allow you to just, ..., ignore those issues. For example, after a CM(you get get to +6 spe), gholdengo is an easy 2HKO and with CM's spdef boost, shadow ball is not enough. Then there are pokemon like iron treads which have a shit defense and don'treally check it at all. So all in all, I can see the potential for uncompetitiveness but I don't currently see it as concerning.
(2): My opinion of this has been the same since the gouging suspect. I never understood why people were defending it. Gouging simply has too many sets and any pokemon you think can check actually doesn't. Certain types are just helpless against certain sets. For example, bug just cannot deal with burning bulwark sets as araq takes too much and gouging has morning sun. Don't let me begin on this thing under sun(proto + morning sun is dumb).
(3): After seeing a few post. I can see how this would be broken. In theory, 50% chance to decrease spdef makes it very easy to blow past checks. However, I think in practice, it never actually does as much damage as it suggests. Although its immunity to non rocks hazards are nice, most of the time you are clicking flip turn as usually, it's not worth the risk.
(4): I still fail to understand why a lot of people think this is ban worthy. I feel like this is the closest I've had to saying "skill issue" even though I really don't like that phrase. This thing is very weak to passive damage, its only option to hit dragons force your coverage be much worse. It's very strong but there are literally a million was to keep this in check.

 

[pikachu<3]

Ban (or at least suspect) Chien-Pao, Archaludon, and Ursaluna-BM ASAP, these things are ridiculous and need to go.

I actually wanted to talk a bit about Kingambit, because I believe it's a bit more of a borderline case than most people think (a lot of people, like mushamu, are pretty staunchly anti-ban), and I believe the people who have argued for Ban in this thread have made pretty unconvincing arguments so far. I know that I find the vast majority of pro-ban arguments to be, at the very least, biased, and some of the takes seem atrocious. For example, one pro-ban argument on this thread was that Keldeo drops to +2 sucker punch after a bit of chip, completely ignoring part of the reason why Keldeo is so good on water in the first place.

Anyways, my overall thoughts on Kingambit:

1. Kingambit is not overwhelming in the builder:

I've dabbled in many types such as Water, Ground, Flying, Dragon, Dark, Ghost, and Normal, and basically every type during the core challenge cycle. I've found that the vast majority of types deal with kingambit naturally by running natural checks like BP Skarm/Corvi/Arch/Dondozo/Quagsire, Vaccum wave on one of its 10,000 users (such as the aforementioned Keldeo and Ursaluna-BM), relatively bulky fighting-types such as Iron hands, Great Tusk, Bulky Quavanal, Urshifu-Rapid-Strike, Okidogi, and/or one of many Substitute and/or Wisp users (such as Skeleridge or various Rotom forms, for example), or Trick/Switcharoo/Encore/etc. Overall I would say that, in the builder at least, Kingambit isn't anywhere near overwhelming enough to warrant tiering action.

2. Kingambit's so-called "50/50s" are massively overblown, due to lacking immediate power early game and being dependent on fainted teammates for power:

Early-game, Kingambit tends to lack power, meaning there's no real 50/50 at play--you just switch to a counter and laugh as Kingambit does zero damage, especially without a boosting item, viz:

252+ Atk Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 127-150 (32.2 - 38%) -- 1.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Braviary: 138-163 (34.1 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Kingambit Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 118-139 (31.8 - 37.4%) -- 87.4% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Skarmory: 94-112 (28.1 - 33.5%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 60 Def Quaquaval: 88-104 (23.5 - 27.8%) -- 82.4% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 103-123 (20.4 - 24.4%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252+ Atk Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 78-93 (22.8 - 27.2%) -- 53.3% chance to 4HKO

These calcs do not look remotely threatening. The upshot of this is that Kingambit doesn't really force any so-called "50/50s' when you can just switch to a hard counter in response.

Even against types that don't have a hard counter to Kingambit (such as Ghost, for example), Kingambit usually doesn't create 50/50s--it just gets a kill every time it comes in (like any other offensively threatening dark-type).

During the end-game, when Kingambit is more threatening as the last pokemon, there's often no 50/50 due to it being an endgame--you always attack into gambit and let them sucker, since if Kingambit is the last mon all you need to do to win is not give it free turns to SD and sweep you.

Obviously Kingambit is more than capable of creating 50/50 situations, but I'm not sure it does this at a significantly higher frequency than the other powerhouses of the tier (choiced mons often have a 50/50 on which move to click, for example)

3. Kingambit's overreliance on Supreme Overlord boosts makes it awkward to use defensively

Suppose you're playing dark, and you want to use Kingambit as a Hatternee answer. Unfortunately:

252+ Atk Kingambit Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Hatterene: 230-272 (72.3 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

This means that Kingambit isn't a good answer to Hatternee, using it this way will usually get your answer in the Fairy MU crippled (by Nuzzle or mystical fire) and unable to do the work you need it to do later in the game.

A similar situation happens if you try to use the steel typing defensively to switch into Toxapex's toxic and it uses infestation:

252+ Atk Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 84-100 (27.7 - 33%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

If Toxapex is carrying rocky helmet and it spams Haze, Kingambit is usually taking upwards of 30%; which means your best mon in the poison MU is getting crippled here.

Overall, I'd say Kingambit isn't that useful defensively despite its good typing an bulk due to these kinds of issues, and is therefore usually relegated to a last mon sweeper, which can be prepped and correctly positioned for during the course of a game.

4. Kingambit is significantly more threatening in practice than on paper

I think this is the point that the pro-ban side should be focusing on more than anything else. The amount of games I've played where Kingambit has won the game despite the opponent being prepared on paper with the hardest of counters is too damn high; Kingambit needs very minimal support to effectively 1v6. Example replays:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2077026047 --Frankly I had no business winning this game, but hey with Gambit anything is possible I guess
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2076916421?p2 -- despite having no breakers at all, no way to make progress, and getting owned the entire game, minor support from Mandi suddenly means Gambit gets 6 kills

I'm sure others can supplement their own replays of Gambit winning games that it really shouldn't be able to; we've all seen it before. In fact, I've had games where Kingambit has swept Fairy teams despite the team above not prepping for fairy at all (although I didn't save those), I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that that no team (other than fighting I guess) is really safe from this thing no matter how prepped it is on paper, but I am unsure if this alone is enough reason for a ban.