Metagame SV Monotype Metagame Discussion [Teal Mask]

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I see a lot of people overating ice and i don't think Chien Pao or Baxcalibur need a tiering action right now because of ice, here is why type by type:

:volcarona: Bug :scizor:
Baxcalibur do not have flash fire so he take around 40% from a fire move that's very annoying.
Scizor can stop veil and revenge kill baxca with bp.
Chien Pao with sd sucker punch is stronger here because he kill scizor at +2.
But with slither wing, lokix or forretress bug have a lot of option.

:tyranitar: Dark :kingambit:
In early meta i think ice have a lot of win vs dark but i think dark can counter team if you really want.
tyranitar looks really good stop hail/aurora veil and can play rock blast heavy slam twave.
good scarfer against Baxca/Chien there is some option darkrai, urshifu, meowscarada, samurott, hydreigon ...
Hazard+Sableye don't think avalugg or sandslash alola are able to rapid spin and ice is far from playing mono boots rn.

:Goodra-Hisui: Dragon :Walking Wake:
Hoodra can prob do something but ngl this mu is prob lose.

:Iron Hands: Electric :Pawmot:
Who is playing elec rn ?
and Baxca prob win this

:Iron Valiant: Fairy :clefable:
think Azumarill/clefable can stop baxca or chien.
sandslash a looks really good in this mu without this guy hatte prob win this
some scarfer like iron valiant or enamorus looks really good

:zamazenta: Fighting :zamazenta:
don't think i need to talk here
even some weird ninetales/froslass set can't win this

:torkoal: Fire :cinderace:
this mu is better for ice than the fight mu
baxca can win this depending on the opp team but against a good fire that's probably a lose

:corviknight: Flying :Thundurus-Therian:
i don't see much flying since the dlc drop but i believe fly can win like last gen
a good scarfer against Ninetales-A + set up corvi looks like a way
Baxca+Chien that's too much for corvi
Sandslash Alola is slower than scarf enamorus under hail and that's sad

:Gholdengo: Ghost :Annihilape:
Ghost have a lot of offensive option vs ice
annihilape ban is a bad news for this mu especially versus Chien Pao

:breloom: Grass :rillaboom:
tbh i'm not gonna talk for this mu because idk
priority against strong ice move probably a win for ice

:quagsire: Ground :great tusk:
i definitly think ground can win this with
good wall with quagsire av mamoswine
good scarfer against ice with great tusk or iron threads

:snorlax: Normal :ditto:
not gonna talk here because idk but ditto help versus baxcalibur and Chien Pao

:okidogi: Poison :Weezing-Galar:
Baxcalibur can win this mu like in the home meta
just curious if iron def toxapex bulk up okidogi or curse muk alola are able to win the ice mu.

:jirachi: Psychic :hatterene:
difficult to see the best psychic 6 atm with a lot of ghost and dark around
Gardevoir/hatterene looks strong here
jirachi and psy terrain as usual
but sd crunch Pao under Veil looks so good here

:tyranitar: Rock :glimmora:
looks good for rock but not sure anyone play rock outside of ladder

:gholdengo: Steel :orthworm:
curious to see if Chien Pao can win this mu with veil up or if like last gen this mu will be an easy win for steel

:Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: Water :dondozo:
no Kyurem here and water have fighting move to put some pressure
with quagsire around or rain up with barra
i think water have a lot of option to play around this mu.


At my eyes Chien Pao is by far better than Baxcalibur he can take some crazy ko with sword dance but he need a lot of move and you can play only four move. With Ninetales around Ice have some crazy physical bulk but no one come on special move piloswine is too passive without toxic and frosmoth is just a bad pokemon in some mu.
Ice is better than before of course but some weakness still open with a very limited number of viable pokemon.
Maybe that's risky to say that right now but i can see ice being a good type but i don't think ice will be a top tier in this meta
 

Neko

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Hi, adding on to Royal's list, here's some of the mons/sets he missed:
:okidogi:
Okidogi (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Toxic Chain
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 160 SpD / 96 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Taunt
As mentioned by Dragapult, with BU Okidogi uses its great bulk and ok speed to act as a stallbreaker, which performs really well against types like Sabless Dark and Steel. This Okidogi always clears Kingambit with an Adamant Nature, and will always outspeed it.

:urshifu:
Urshifu @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Unseen Fist
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wicked Blow
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Iron Head
Urshifu @ Punching Glove
Ability: Unseen Fist
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Wicked Blow
- Close Combat
- Sucker Punch
Choice Scarf Urshifu leverages its great speedtier and ability to OHKO problems like Alolan Ninetales, Fluttermane, and Chien-Pao even before they do funny stuff, while retaining Meowscarada's ability to pivot. Technically, you can use this on Fighting too, but Sucker Punch is just better on Fighting since you'd want it to stand a chance vs Ghost.

:ursaluna:
Ursaluna-Bloodmoon (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Mind's Eye
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 248 HP / 20 Def / 240 Spe
Bold / Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Moonlight / Blood Moon
- Vacuum Wave / Blood Moon
- Earth Power
Blood Moon Ursaluna isnt really a godsend for Ground teams, but its a decent breaker that can cut through Poison, Rainless Water, and some Dark teams with ease. Currently I prefer it to be faster than Kingambit; This lets you Vacuum Wave it before it punches you.

:jirachi:
Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 128 SpD / 96 Spe
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn
- Thunder Wave
- Iron Head
Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 248 Atk / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Healing Wish / Trick
- Iron Head / Healing Wish
- Zen Headbutt / Healing Wish
Jirachi. Soft uwu rocker or scarfer that maintains momentum. Defensive spread lets you escape or clear Choice Band Mamoswine, while not getting munched by (unboosted) Chien-Pao, while the Scarf set has a smidge Def for living a Sucker Punch from Chien-Pao. Both beat Flutter Mane.

:sandslash-alola:
Sandslash-Alola @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Leftovers
Ability: Slush Rush
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Iron Head
- Earthquake
- Icicle Crash
Alternative to Avalugg. Actually, you can even run Swords Dance on this or a Choice Band, its up to you.

:empoleon: Can consider Flip Turn over one of its STABs depending on the Monotype its on; Flash Cannon would be decent for Water, while Surf on Steel will serve you well.

:gliscor: is able to run a set with Taunt and Spikes to shut down most defoggers and pressure Poison teams. However, I hate Gliscor so I dont have a spread for him yet

:torterra: Can consider using Heavy Slam to own the Poison matchup. Loaded Dice with Bullet Seed and Rock Blast is funny (and is roughly as strong as Stone Edge).

:manaphy: Can consider Scald and Take Heart in Rainless Water compositions, as its able to possibly outlast Poison teams and get an early burn on Alolan Muk.

:ninetales: Seems appealing with its access to healing wish, which means it can momentum in a Scovillain, while your Heatran is on Stealth Rock duty.

:braviary-hisui: It got Vacuum Wave, but cant OHKO Gambit. :gardevoir: might do the Dark killing a smidge better.

Old Pokemon, new moves:
:walking-wake: You probably should run Scald on this, its already a bit of a hard guy to swap into, punish them harder. Flip Turn is good, but not as good as Scald, since most swap ins might be Water-immune

:azumarill: Run Knock Off. Beat Steel and Poison. All is well

:iron-valiant: Vacuum Wave to beat the Chien-Meow and Meowscarada allegations (not an OHKO without Specs/prior chip)

:tornadus-therian: Knock Off on Assault Vest sets.

:tyranitar: Can run a set such as Knock Off / Stealth Rock / Thunder Wave / Rock move, to cteam Snow teams.

Weird Pokemon, new additions
:clefable: Is bad, losing Softboiled for Moonlight is detrimental, as it ceases to be good vs weather teams, esp with the Ice rn

:munkidori: is weird, its a decent speedtier, but its outclassed by Gengar on Poison, and possibly Indeedee on Psy due to its Psychic Terrain utility

:fezandipiti: ???? Idk I even forgor the spelling.

Probably unhealthy elements
:icy-rock: Getting a +1 Def on top of Aurora Veil is just absurd, and its undefoggable too. If something needs to be done to Ice, strongly suggest for this to go first.
:annihilape: Lol.

Thats all for meow's week one thing
 
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I see a lot of people overating ice and i don't think Chien Pao or Baxcalibur need a tiering action right now because of ice, here is why type by type:

:volcarona: Bug :scizor:
Baxcalibur do not have flash fire so he take around 40% from a fire move that's very annoying.
Scizor can stop veil and revenge kill baxca with bp.
Chien Pao with sd sucker punch is stronger here because he kill scizor at +2.
But with slither wing, lokix or forretress bug have a lot of option.

:tyranitar: Dark :kingambit:
In early meta i think ice have a lot of win vs dark but i think dark can counter team if you really want.
tyranitar looks really good stop hail/aurora veil and can play rock blast heavy slam twave.
good scarfer against Baxca/Chien there is some option darkrai, urshifu, meowscarada, samurott, hydreigon ...
Hazard+Sableye don't think avalugg or sandslash alola are able to rapid spin and ice is far from playing mono boots rn.

:Goodra-Hisui: Dragon :Walking Wake:
Hoodra can prob do something but ngl this mu is prob lose.

:Iron Hands: Electric :Pawmot:
Who is playing elec rn ?
and Baxca prob win this

:Iron Valiant: Fairy :clefable:
think Azumarill/clefable can stop baxca or chien.
sandslash a looks really good in this mu without this guy hatte prob win this
some scarfer like iron valiant or enamorus looks really good

:zamazenta: Fighting :zamazenta:
don't think i need to talk here
even some weird ninetales/froslass set can't win this

:torkoal: Fire :cinderace:
this mu is better for ice than the fight mu
baxca can win this depending on the opp team but against a good fire that's probably a lose

:corviknight: Flying :Thundurus-Therian:
i don't see much flying since the dlc drop but i believe fly can win like last gen
a good scarfer against Ninetales-A + set up corvi looks like a way
Baxca+Chien that's too much for corvi
Sandslash Alola is slower than scarf enamorus under hail and that's sad

:Gholdengo: Ghost :Annihilape:
Ghost have a lot of offensive option vs ice
annihilape ban is a bad news for this mu especially versus Chien Pao

:breloom: Grass :rillaboom:
tbh i'm not gonna talk for this mu because idk
priority against strong ice move probably a win for ice

:quagsire: Ground :great tusk:
i definitly think ground can win this with
good wall with quagsire av mamoswine
good scarfer against ice with great tusk or iron threads

:snorlax: Normal :ditto:
not gonna talk here because idk but ditto help versus baxcalibur and Chien Pao

:okidogi: Poison :Weezing-Galar:
Baxcalibur can win this mu like in the home meta
just curious if iron def toxapex bulk up okidogi or curse muk alola are able to win the ice mu.

:jirachi: Psychic :hatterene:
difficult to see the best psychic 6 atm with a lot of ghost and dark around
Gardevoir/hatterene looks strong here
jirachi and psy terrain as usual
but sd crunch Pao under Veil looks so good here

:tyranitar: Rock :glimmora:
looks good for rock but not sure anyone play rock outside of ladder

:gholdengo: Steel :orthworm:
curious to see if Chien Pao can win this mu with veil up or if like last gen this mu will be an easy win for steel

:Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: Water :dondozo:
no Kyurem here and water have fighting move to put some pressure
with quagsire around or rain up with barra
i think water have a lot of option to play around this mu.


At my eyes Chien Pao is by far better than Baxcalibur he can take some crazy ko with sword dance but he need a lot of move and you can play only four move. With Ninetales around Ice have some crazy physical bulk but no one come on special move piloswine is too passive without toxic and frosmoth is just a bad pokemon in some mu.
Ice is better than before of course but some weakness still open with a very limited number of viable pokemon.
Maybe that's risky to say that right now but i can see ice being a good type but i don't think ice will be a top tier in this meta
Most Grass players are resorting to Abomasnow so they can stand a chance against Baxcalibur or Chien-Pao, which sadly are with an abundant usage right now (both Monotype Dragon and Ice are relatively common choices, and therefore worth to account for). Aurora Veil is never bad either with two big win-conditions Grass has got in Ogerpon and Sinistcha, but I agree being forced to run it can sometimes feel like a handicap (as you are giving up an important last slot which can be niche-sucessfull against certain meta threats).

:baxcalibur:

Anyway I would like to join the Baxcalibur discussion as well. So far I have played Grass, Water, Steel and Poison and all of these teams seemed to have a certain problem against it. Not all Steels run Orthworm and I do think it is a pretty subpar Pokémon giving its 6-teamslot syndrome, as there are better options to go (Jirachi, Empoleon, Iron Treads) which you would probably give up for it. Baxcalibur can be pretty dangerous against Corviknight if it sets up in the right time, it can come in against a more defensive Pokemon like Heatran and Empoleon and be very problematic.
Not much to say about the rest because the other matchups naturally struggle against Dragon or Ice, but Baxcalibur can play an important role in making those near unwinnable. Water being forced to use Dondozo probably isn't a good thing either and freeze dry spam on Ice can make it very difficult.

Scale Shot + Swords Dance being very oppressive and has very few amounts of counterplay which is strongly backed-up by Aurora Veil and Snow support on Ice, giving it a resistance to most priority moves in the game and even certain revenge killers. With A-Ninetales back into the game, Ice has access to a much better offensive support than what it had previously, as its 108 base speed allows it to bring up veil in many scenarios. I'm curious to see what kind of action will be taken against this Pokémon, though, because right now it does seem very oppressive in the hands of a capable player, possibly more than other threats that have been brought up in the past (Chien-Pao being the first one to come to mind).

Also saying Flying "can win" is possibly a big optimism of your part lol. Haven't played it much but it already struggled pre-DLC against those two types and Ice is clearly a lot stronger than it was, both bc of scale shot + better a-veil support.
 

Neko

When you live for love, how precious life can be
is a Site Content Manageris an official Team Rateris a Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Contributor
I see a lot of people overating ice and i don't think Chien Pao or Baxcalibur need a tiering action right now because of ice, here is why type by type:

:volcarona: Bug :scizor:
Baxcalibur do not have flash fire so he take around 40% from a fire move that's very annoying.
Scizor can stop veil and revenge kill baxca with bp.
Chien Pao with sd sucker punch is stronger here because he kill scizor at +2.
But with slither wing, lokix or forretress bug have a lot of option.

:tyranitar: Dark :kingambit:
In early meta i think ice have a lot of win vs dark but i think dark can counter team if you really want.
tyranitar looks really good stop hail/aurora veil and can play rock blast heavy slam twave.
good scarfer against Baxca/Chien there is some option darkrai, urshifu, meowscarada, samurott, hydreigon ...
Hazard+Sableye don't think avalugg or sandslash alola are able to rapid spin and ice is far from playing mono boots rn.

:Goodra-Hisui: Dragon :Walking Wake:
Hoodra can prob do something but ngl this mu is prob lose.

:Iron Hands: Electric :Pawmot:
Who is playing elec rn ?
and Baxca prob win this

:Iron Valiant: Fairy :clefable:
think Azumarill/clefable can stop baxca or chien.
sandslash a looks really good in this mu without this guy hatte prob win this
some scarfer like iron valiant or enamorus looks really good

:zamazenta: Fighting :zamazenta:
don't think i need to talk here
even some weird ninetales/froslass set can't win this

:torkoal: Fire :cinderace:
this mu is better for ice than the fight mu
baxca can win this depending on the opp team but against a good fire that's probably a lose

:corviknight: Flying :Thundurus-Therian:
i don't see much flying since the dlc drop but i believe fly can win like last gen
a good scarfer against Ninetales-A + set up corvi looks like a way
Baxca+Chien that's too much for corvi
Sandslash Alola is slower than scarf enamorus under hail and that's sad

:Gholdengo: Ghost :Annihilape:
Ghost have a lot of offensive option vs ice
annihilape ban is a bad news for this mu especially versus Chien Pao

:breloom: Grass :rillaboom:
tbh i'm not gonna talk for this mu because idk
priority against strong ice move probably a win for ice

:quagsire: Ground :great tusk:
i definitly think ground can win this with
good wall with quagsire av mamoswine
good scarfer against ice with great tusk or iron threads

:snorlax: Normal :ditto:
not gonna talk here because idk but ditto help versus baxcalibur and Chien Pao

:okidogi: Poison :Weezing-Galar:
Baxcalibur can win this mu like in the home meta
just curious if iron def toxapex bulk up okidogi or curse muk alola are able to win the ice mu.

:jirachi: Psychic :hatterene:
difficult to see the best psychic 6 atm with a lot of ghost and dark around
Gardevoir/hatterene looks strong here
jirachi and psy terrain as usual
but sd crunch Pao under Veil looks so good here

:tyranitar: Rock :glimmora:
looks good for rock but not sure anyone play rock outside of ladder

:gholdengo: Steel :orthworm:
curious to see if Chien Pao can win this mu with veil up or if like last gen this mu will be an easy win for steel

:Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: Water :dondozo:
no Kyurem here and water have fighting move to put some pressure
with quagsire around or rain up with barra
i think water have a lot of option to play around this mu.


At my eyes Chien Pao is by far better than Baxcalibur he can take some crazy ko with sword dance but he need a lot of move and you can play only four move. With Ninetales around Ice have some crazy physical bulk but no one come on special move piloswine is too passive without toxic and frosmoth is just a bad pokemon in some mu.
Ice is better than before of course but some weakness still open with a very limited number of viable pokemon.
Maybe that's risky to say that right now but i can see ice being a good type but i don't think ice will be a top tier in this meta
Lets beat Snow Allegations.

First of all, thankie in advance to Yedla for compiling some of the possible counters to Snow. However, its a bit shortsighted on some stuffs on it, because Snow boost actually matters pretty much every time here. I'm not joking. For instance:

:iron-treads: 252 Atk Iron Treads Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Baxcalibur in Snow with an ally's Aurora Veil: 84-100 (22.6 - 26.9%) -- 37.7% chance to 4HKO

:great-tusk: 252 Atk Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Baxcalibur in Snow with an ally's Aurora Veil: 142-168 (38.2 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

:sneasler: 252 Atk Sneasler Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Baxcalibur with an ally's Aurora Veil: 211-249 (56.8 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:corviknight: +2 100 Def Corviknight Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Baxcalibur in Snow with an ally's Aurora Veil: 95-112 (25.6 - 30.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (You will lose the trade, but running Max def and Iron Defense lets Corviknight win one on one, except Ice also has team mates)

:azumarill: 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Baxcalibur in Snow with an ally's Aurora Veil: 192-226 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (considering we have Avalugg to swap into Azu, not too good. You also outdamage and win 1v1 with just Earthquake (if Screens arent up). However with Earthquake this means Flutter Mane and Enamorus can vanquish this Dragon. Take note that FM and Enam are killed by +2 Shard, however but you cant have EQ and Shard anyway, so thats fine. You can also use Tinkaton if you want to encore it.)

Because of Snow and Veil, Baxcalibur doesnt have a lot of problems setting up and facetanking a possible revenge-kill in the process. You can only hope for the snow or screens to end, which by then you're supposed to...probably be able to kill it.

However, some Pokemon arent mentioned on Yedla's post are able to check Baxcalibur:

:gholdengo: with an Air Balloon is by far the best Baxcalibur (and Ice check in general), as its able to take a boosted Icicle Spear and well...do around 60% back with Make it Rain. But hopefully, you're able to chip it down beforehand

:jirachi: Choice Scarf and Iron Head it to dead lol.

:walking-wake: Choice Scarf is unable to fully OHKO it, but Choice Specs will. Choice Specs wake is also a meanie to Ice teams as they have no swap ins to it.

:quagsire: is a very shaky check thats borderline dangerous if Baxcalibur consistently hits 5 times. However its able to stall out Snow and Veil, and has Body Press to kill it.

:snorlax: Has thick fat and Curse, but loses to Bax if its only at +1 and Snow and Veil are up.

With these in mind, I feel Snow is really a bit overtuned especially with Icy Rock, since its just one threat over another, like even if you manage to get past Bax, there's still Cetitan and a Pao, while Mamoswine will try to pummel you down. It doesnt help that Articuno is a decent pivot for Ice teams, Avalugg is a not too bad spinner, and the Mammoths are just great. On the other hand our Steel types are really limited in distribution, and Ice-Dragon-Ground coverage is just unresisted to all of the types right now.

As I said in my first post, I think Icy Rock could be looked on first, followed by one of the mons in Ice if its still bad.

You might reply with: Ok, but Ice can still use Light Clay and its much worse right???

Well, not really. For one Alolan Ninetales needs to stay in to set Veil more times than ever, and that cuts into the snow turns. Also, Cetitan and especially Alolan Sandslash would be terrible (maybe not Cetitan) picks by then.

Thats all, I spent all my braincells writing this. I hope this helps.:blobnom:
 
Since we're talking about Ice, from someone who has played Ice alot, I agree with Neko's sentiment, that if anything from ice should go first, its Icy Rock and then see what happens. I believe Icy Rock is the superior item to run on Ninetales over light clay since Snow is just so much better than hail ever was with being a free +1 def to all mons making mons like Bax way more bulky than they appear. It allows you way more freedom in what you want to do, and not pigeon hold you to setting up A-Veil right away. Not to mention, icy rock gives a bigger timeframe for snowslash to come in and get in some damage (or if you're running the SD set, it can just potentially sweep several types) and hell gives a bigger timeframe for bax or any other set up mon to set up for relative ease

Edit: As soon as I posted that, Neko comes in with a much better explained version of what I've said lmao. You love to see it
 
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Actually....I'm unsure. I think its time to wipe the snow off the windshields and just ban Bax if the council thinks Ice is doing too much. I know I just said get rid of icy rock because it provides so much free value, but the discussion still comes back to Bax in some regard, and I saw some discussions on what others think which has shifted my opinion over to Bax being the first to go. Ice probably wouldn't be overbearing if Bax was banned, even with everything else still intact.
 
Since we're talking about Ice, from someone who has played Ice alot, I agree with Neko's sentiment, that if anything from ice should go first, its Icy Rock and then see what happens. I believe Icy Rock is the superior item to run on Ninetales over light clay since Snow is just so much better than hail ever was with being a free +1 def to all mons making mons like Bax way more bulky than they appear. It allows you way more freedom in what you want to do, and not pigeon hold you to setting up A-Veil right away. Not to mention, icy rock gives a bigger timeframe for snowslash to come in and get in some damage (or if you're running the SD set, it can just potentially sweep several types) and hell gives a bigger timeframe for bax or any other set up mon to set up for relative ease

Edit: As soon as I posted that, Neko comes in with a much better explained version of what I've said lmao. You love to see it
Open question for anyone to answer: What reason besides tiering action precedent for oppressive weather is there for an Icy Rock ban? Most Ninetales carry Light Clay and it's not as though Snowslash is the issue.

If Baxcalibur and/or Chien-Pao and/or Ninetales is the problem (and this is not me saying that any of them are), why would tiering action not focus on the specific mon rather than the archetype? Surely Light Clay isn't the problem either.
 
Open question for anyone to answer: What reason besides tiering action precedent for oppressive weather is there for an Icy Rock ban? Most Ninetales carry Light Clay and it's not as though Snowslash is the issue.

If Baxcalibur and/or Chien-Pao and/or Ninetales is the problem (and this is not me saying that any of them are), why would tiering action not focus on the specific mon rather than the archetype? Surely Light Clay isn't the problem either.
To be fair, I did say in the post right after that I'm unsure and even leaning towards Bax. To answer this post though, whilst there hasnt been action precedent for Icy Rock, there has been for Weather Rocks in general before. That was my line of reasoning. The closest comparison would be smooth rock, than damp rock where it gives Baxcalibur (Particularly Bax, since Baxcalibur is the main point of contention for most people), Snowslash, Ninetales, etc. too much freedom to set up and do what they want for little pressure. It came down to "Are these mons really the problem, or is Icy Rock giving Bax too much free reign and banning Icy Rock might make Bax ok" for me.

It is the first week, so I don't think anything should be quickbanned/suspect yet, but if anything, its Icy Rock or Bax (leaning on Bax)
 

Pengairxan

D_RUNNIN
is a Contributor to Smogon
I'm going to chip in a bit on Light clay V Icy rock.

Icy Rock Snow can also just enable more overall since it is consistent, Atales everytime it gets in will always get up Snow which gives a consistent boost to defense and Enables Slush rush even if Atales is being thrown out to make a safe switch it still gets Snow up and gains momentum by switching into a threat. There also isn't a good answer to snow outside of running your own weather which only Rock, Water and Fire having really much use for consistently. And even then, Atales threatens Rain with Freeze Dry (It is an OKHO against Pelipper unless you are running max special bulk and even then it is a good 68% chance to OKHO) and to a degree threatens Tyranitar with Moonblast (But will lose in a 1v1 if both are healthy.)

However you can stop Aurora Veil from going up or staying up since Atales has to come in and live to keep it up which can become harder and harder for it as the game goes in. Hazards, Fast taunters, fast threats that threaten to OKHO Atales and defog exist on most types in this meta now. However I will concede that none of these are perfect answers since Alolan ninetales still gets snow up and has teammates that can threaten and implies best case situation for the opposing type. For example you're not going to have a Gunk shot Sneasler (which is one of Poison and Fighting's best answers into Atales) alive, be able to hit Gunkshot or even running it since Dire claw/Poison jab are more consistent. And if Veil goes up, that impacts far more than snow does since it raises both defensive sides allowing would be special checks to suddenly crumple in the face of the added bulk mons now receive (I.e Chien-pao only dies 18.8% of the time to a Choice specs Iron valiant Vacuum wave with Veil up compared to always dying without it).

So in the end both have their pros but Icy Rock in my opinion is the more immediate problem. However if both get banned in response both Snow is and Veil are weakened making it easier on both ends for either side to deal with. Also Fairy gets slapped in the process as well which does not benefit me at all but I'm bored of feasting on hyper offense screens fairy anyway.
 
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TheRealBigC

I COULD BE BANNED!
Wanted to share some reflections on where I think the DLC1 meta should go after these initial days of playing

:Annihilape: Sadly still broken. The limiting factor here is definitely Rage Fist, which just allows for absurd amounts of snowballing coupled with Annihilape's excellent natural bulk and access to Bulk Up + Taunt. Not even Unaware mons like Quagsire are safe, because you can just Taunt them to prevent status and Rage Fist increases in raw BP as you take damage. I really wish we could just ban Rage Fist instead, because imo this mon provides a lot of great utility to the tier on both Ghost and Fighting and would almost certainly be fine without this cracked move.

:Chien-Pao: Really needs to go. It's even more stupid now with Mandibuzz support on Dark and Ninetales-A support on Ice basically fixing its fundamental issues of hazard vulnerability and poor bulk. Choice Band sets were previously somewhat limited by their rocks weakness, but this is no longer the case, and CB Pao is unreasonable for the vast majority of teams to answer. The only significant check to this introduced in the DLC is Ursaluna-Blood-Moon, who obviously can't switch into Pao's Ice moves, and can't OHKO it with Vacuum Wave behind Aurora Veil. This is an incredibly restrictive mon, and I think the tier would be far better off without it, especially now that a less broken alternative in Weavile is viable.

:Darkrai: Actually balanced? Feels like a faster, frailer Hydreigon to me. Definitely strong and maybe in the future after other mons are potentially banned it might become an issue, but right now it feels like it fits nicely into the tier. Its speed tier isn't what it once was, Hypnosis is unreliable, and it has pretty middling bulk, which all serve to keep it in check imo. Granted I haven't seen this mon in action too much, so maybe others will have different perspectives.

:Ninetales-Alola::Baxcalibur: These combination of these two is a little much right now in my view. Ninetales-A is amazing at getting screens up due to its speed and surprisingly high bulk in snow; Bax can make full use of both of these and go absolutely crazy with its SD Loaded Dice sets, which many teams struggle to sufficiently answer. Obviously Ice has a few matchups it auto loses (i.e. ID Zamazenta, CB Scizor), but it also has a ton of matchups it essentially just wins at preview due to the combination of these two + Pao. This being said I don't think Bax itself is innately so strong in this tier that we should immediately swing the banhammer. I think for the time being we should leave Ice as a whole alone while focusing on the more egregiously overpowered threats in the tier, and then afterwards consider banning Icy Rock or Light Clay (or both). I haven't seen much Dragon since the DLC came out but Bax still seems reasonable there.

:Urshifu: Why was this freed? There are a few new answers for it now in Weezing-G and Clef, but overall SD sets are just way too strong for the tier. +2 252 Atk Black Glasses Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Corviknight on a critical hit: 385-454 (96.2 - 113.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO. Obviously on top of this you can't even revenge kill it consistently due to Sucker Punch. Don't think I need to elaborate any further here.

:Booster Energy: Strongly feel this item deserves a second chance. I feel the initial ban was pretty knee-jerk considering it was based on stuff like DD Roaring Moon which in basically every other Gen 9 meta has not been a problem and has fallen off a cliff in Mono, as well as Iron Bundle who is no longer in the tier. I think reintroducing this item back into the tier would significantly improve the diversity of the tier. For instance, Great Tusk, Iron Treads, Sandy Shocks, and so on would gain interesting new sets to use that could help remedy some of the issues of their respective types or allow them to perform better in sweeping or cleaning roles. Moreover, Booster Energy would also improve the floundering viability of mons such as Iron Moth and Roaring Moon, and could also perhaps allow for mostly unseen mons such as Scream Tail and Iron Thorns to gain real niches in the tier. If Booster Energy ends up pushing mons like Flutter Mane and Iron Valiant over the edge, then we should ban those broken abusers instead of the item itself which otherwise seems balanced.

TL;DR: Ban Annihilape (or Rage Fist), Chien-Pao, and Urshifu-S, monitor Ice and consider Icy Rock/Light Clay bans in the future, keep Darkrai, free Booster Energy
 
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Anyway I would like to join the Baxcalibur discussion as well. So far I have played Grass, Water, Steel and Poison and all of these teams seemed to have a certain problem against it. Not all Steels run Orthworm and I do think it is a pretty subpar Pokémon giving its 6-teamslot syndrome, as there are better options to go (Jirachi, Empoleon, Iron Treads) which you would probably give up for it. Baxcalibur can be pretty dangerous against Corviknight if it sets up in the right time, it can come in against a more defensive Pokemon like Heatran and Empoleon and be very problematic.
Not much to say about the rest because the other matchups naturally struggle against Dragon or Ice, but Baxcalibur can play an important role in making those near unwinnable. Water being forced to use Dondozo probably isn't a good thing either and freeze dry spam on Ice can make it very difficult.
For grass, i can't say but you can't say water or steel have problem against ice
Water -> empoleon quagsire + offensive check to Pao like shifu or samurott
-> rain just flip turn or eject button with barra
that's just some exemple but for me water have a good mu versus ice.

Steel -> maybe this mu is harder but you have so many option vs ninetales alola
-> scarf gholdengo/ heatran or scizor , defog corvi and without aurora veil this mu looks less scary i think
-> even if you need to pay attention to Baxcalibur and Chien Pao steel have volturn and hazard up i really think it help a lot
definitly harder than water because water looks just fine but i think if steel really pay attention should be playable.

:iron-treads: 252 Atk Iron Treads Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Baxcalibur in Snow with an ally's Aurora Veil: 84-100 (22.6 - 26.9%) -- 37.7% chance to 4HKO

:great-tusk: 252 Atk Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Baxcalibur in Snow with an ally's Aurora Veil: 142-168 (38.2 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

:sneasler: 252 Atk Sneasler Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Baxcalibur with an ally's Aurora Veil: 211-249 (56.8 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:corviknight: +2 100 Def Corviknight Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Baxcalibur in Snow with an ally's Aurora Veil: 95-112 (25.6 - 30.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (You will lose the trade, but running Max def and Iron Defense lets Corviknight win one on one, except Ice also has team mates)

:azumarill: 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Baxcalibur in Snow with an ally's Aurora Veil: 192-226 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (considering we have Avalugg to swap into Azu, not too good. You also outdamage and win 1v1 with just Earthquake (if Screens arent up). However with Earthquake this means Flutter Mane and Enamorus can vanquish this Dragon. Take note that FM and Enam are killed by +2 Shard, however but you cant have EQ and Shard anyway, so thats fine. You can also use Tinkaton if you want to encore it.)
that's some good calc but i don't think it's very relevant

Ground -> scarf Iron treads or lando can prevent aurora veil for being up at least for the lead
-> if aurora veil is up you can switch in clodsire and no one want to take toxic, you can stall aurora veil with quagsire if ninetales switch out
-> you can revenge kill Chien Pao with your scarf or ursaluna Vacuum Wave
-> lando i can be really scary if he have some free turn
that's just some idea but with quagsire around no one really 6-0 you even if some pokemon looks scary like mamoswine

Fairy -> Mixed Iron Valiant have no switch in Specs Flutter Mane hit hard too
-> i feel a lot of pokemon want to play fairy stab Valiant, FM, Azumarill, Hatte looks hard for Baxcalibur and Chien Pao
-> And fairy play Screen too, Klefki can stop Sandslash Alola with twave or Foul Play.

We need to have ice in a more stable meta before a baxcalibur/icy rock ban
 
Agree with Annihilape, Darkrai points, and that Bax is crazy strong on Ice - though definitely not broken on dragon. A few places I have a few contradicting experiences and wanted to just put my thoughts out there.

Wanted to share some reflections on where I think the DLC1 meta should go after these initial days of playing

:Chien-Pao: Really needs to go. It's even more stupid now with Mandibuzz support on Dark and Ninetales-A support on Ice basically fixing its fundamental issues of hazard vulnerability and poor bulk. Choice Band sets were previously somewhat limited by their rocks weakness, but this is no longer the case, and CB Pao is unreasonable for the vast majority of teams to answer. The only significant check to this introduced in the DLC is Ursaluna-Blood-Moon, who obviously can't switch into Pao's Ice moves, and can't OHKO it with Vacuum Wave behind Aurora Veil. This is an incredibly restrictive mon, and I think the tier would be far better off without it, especially now that a less broken alternative in Weavile is viable.
Don't know if I agree with this yet, Pao doesn't seem nearly as bad on Dark right now. Like half the types that Pao threatened in the past got access to strong Vacuum Waves users - Ursaluna, Kommo - o, Braviary-Hisui/Gard, even like Empoleon got it. Not to mention but Grass got a check in the form of Ogerpon. The main perpetrator of Ice being strong isn't Pao, and from my experience with the meta so far I really haven't seen Pao being that overpowering. I'll also note, Mandi + Pao core isn't what we thought it'd be. I've had more success so far just doing an Overqwil/Ting Lu backbone and then 4 strong attackers, the team I like the most for Dark so far just straight up doesn't have Pao or Mandi. This could just be me being a tunnel visioned based off what types I've really gotten into so far - Ground/Water/Rock/Dark/Dragon I've found myself happy with facing the meta/builds - but I definitely don't agree Pao is worse than it was.

:Urshifu: Why was this freed? There are a few new answers for it now in Weezing-G and Clef, but overall SD sets are just way too strong for the tier. +2 252 Atk Black Glasses Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Corviknight on a critical hit: 385-454 (96.2 - 113.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO. Obviously on top of this you can't even revenge kill it consistently due to Sucker Punch. Don't think I need to elaborate any further here.
This yeah, I haven't seen it do anything too crazy most of the time, but especially long term I wouldn't be surprised if this was a super unhealthy mon to have in the tier. I haven't touched Steel yet for example, but I know the first Shifu I'd see would just be impossible to play around. I don't think it'll be as bad as it was - types like Poison and Flying got answers in mons since we last saw Shifu like GWeezing and Enamorous. I don't think it should be quickbanned, but first suspect 100% and when the meta settles we'll see how strong it really is. So far I just haven't seen it as too terrible.

:Booster Energy: Strongly feel this item deserves a second chance. I feel the initial ban was pretty knee-jerk considering it was based on stuff like DD Roaring Moon which in basically every other Gen 9 meta has not been a problem and has fallen off a cliff in Mono, as well as Iron Bundle who is no longer in the tier. I think reintroducing this item back into the tier would significantly improve the diversity of the tier. For instance, Great Tusk, Iron Treads, Sandy Shocks, and so on would gain interesting new sets to use that could help remedy some of the issues of their respective types or allow them to perform better in sweeping or cleaning roles. Moreover, Booster Energy would also improve the floundering viability of mons such as Iron Moth and Roaring Moon, and could also perhaps allow for mostly unseen mons such as Scream Tail and Iron Thorns to gain real niches in the tier. If Booster Energy ends up pushing mons like Flutter Mane and Iron Valiant over the edge, then we should ban those broken abusers instead of the item itself which otherwise seems balanced.
Want to see what more people think of this one, but end of the day the conversation is: does it take away from the pool viable pokemon in the tier, or does it increase it by making lesser used mons more viable. Pretty hesitant about it, and end of the day it'll simply end up favoring some types more than others. Ghost would probs lose Flutter and become even worse, and dark would like pull up the DD Acrobatics Roaring Moon again. I'm open to retesting the item but if we're banning multiple mons to make an item usable, then the item is the problem. Plus what we get in return is late game cheese, some idiot running protosynthesis defense cm stored power scream tail, and like 5 new ways to make lower viability types cry. I mean I just see it as an item that further polarizes the meta if anything.
 

TheRealBigC

I COULD BE BANNED!
Don't know if I agree with this yet, Pao doesn't seem nearly as bad on Dark right now. Like half the types that Pao threatened in the past got access to strong Vacuum Waves users - Ursaluna, Kommo - o, Braviary-Hisui/Gard, even like Empoleon got it. Not to mention but Grass got a check in the form of Ogerpon. The main perpetrator of Ice being strong isn't Pao, and from my experience with the meta so far I really haven't seen Pao being that overpowering. I'll also note, Mandi + Pao core isn't what we thought it'd be. I've had more success so far just doing an Overqwil/Ting Lu backbone and then 4 strong attackers, the team I like the most for Dark so far just straight up doesn't have Pao or Mandi. This could just be me being a tunnel visioned based off what types I've really gotten into so far - Ground/Water/Rock/Dark/Dragon I've found myself happy with facing the meta/builds - but I definitely don't agree Pao is worse than it was.
Good post overall and I agree with a lot of what you said, but wanted to respond to this section here on Chien-Pao. The fundamental issue with all of these supposed Chien-Pao answers is that they can simply never safely switch into it. Kommo-o is big for Dragon, but obviously cannot take a single hit from Pao, and is itself massively threatened by CB Ice Shard if it's chipped in an endgame scenario; 252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o: 204-242 (70.1 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO; 252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Ice Shard vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o: 138-164 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO. Brav-H and Gardevoir are bad mons who can't OHKO Pao with Vacuum Wave without Specs. Empoleon I can't see ever seriously using Vacuum Wave over its plethora of other good options, and if it did I think that would be testament to how broken Pao is (needs Specs to OHKO btw). Ogerpon is a very poor Chien-Pao check considering its Stealth Rock weakness and it being slower than it; also, 252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Hearthflame: 304-358 (100.9 - 118.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO. I've personally found CB Pao + Mandibuzz cores to be extremely powerful and consistent, but considering how fresh the meta is I suppose the jury is still somewhat out on that. I don't want to turn this thread into a rehash of the post-HOME metagame thoughts one by fixating on Chien-Pao, but I really think it's in an even stronger position than pre-DLC and at the very least should be suspected down the line.
 
I've personally found CB Pao + Mandibuzz cores to be extremely powerful and consistent, but considering how fresh the meta is I suppose the jury is still somewhat out on that. I don't want to turn this thread into a rehash of the post-HOME metagame thoughts one by fixating on Chien-Pao, but I really think it's in an even stronger position than pre-DLC and at the very least should be suspected down the line.
Aight yeah was building Dark a bit more today, Dark definitely can't cover as much as it used to be able to imo, at first I was still thinking I was right on the money with Mandi not being the best option for a defensive backbone. Then I made a super fucking Gross mandi team with Band Daunt+Band Pao+ Scarf Darkrai with Kingambit and yeah I see it now.
 
:booster-energy: as an item is very interesting as it would provide more roles for many paradox pokemon. The problem is that ultimately, it wouldn't actually do any good. Let's analyze every paradox pokemon and see what would happen if it was unbanned.

:Great Tusk:: This is already an amazing pokemon and with booster, it would give it more sets. For example, with defensive body press set will be a lot more viable to check physical attackers like meow. It would also allow its offensive set to be a more threatening. However, tusk is still tusk and its viability wouldn't change much.
:Scream Tail:: I think that past puff doesn't really benefit much from booster. It has no role on fairy and on psychic, it's role is to set up screens, pass wish, setup rocks, and twave things. Yes, a booster to a defense would be nice but considering how often it wish passes, I think leftovers and light clay are just significantly better.
:Brute Bonnet:: To be honest, even if it got booster energy, zarude and most importantly meow would always be better. Although it has spore and has succer punch to circumvent its speed, the type is just does not work for a pokemon with that low of speed. The worse part is that booster can never boost its speed.
:Flutter Mane:: This pokemon would be banned with booster. You basically get a scarf without being locked into a move. If booster mane comes back, ghost and fairy no longer have a need to run a scarfer and that's scary as both can deal massive damage for booster mane to clean up.
:Slither Wing:: This pokemon actually benefits quite a bit from booster. It makes it stronger without making it too overbearing. Most people recently shifted to guts hera over this which is really sad. With booster, it would finally get claim the status of top bug pokemon(fighting is still never running this though)
:Sandy Shocks:: This pokemon has a hard time choosing its item. Sometimes it's sash, sometimes it's light clay. However, with booster here, unless you are running screens, you will always run booster. Setting up rocks and hitting hard to tbolt, epower, and pivoting with volt is really nice. Plus, if you go for speed boosting booster, you can be a great cleaner on ground and psychic. It's already starting to rise the ranks, but with booster, it would be top tier.
:Roaring Moon:: I don't I need to say much as to why with booster, this will be banned. Ddance, outrage, knock off(yes it got knock in DLC), acrobatics with a attack booster cleans teams like nothing else. with screen support on dark and dragon, it's very hard to check it after your team has been slightly weakened.
:Walking Wake:: Considering it got scald, booster wake would get banned. spa booster is impossible to switch into, and speed booster makes revenge killing impossible.

:Iron Treads:: Doesn't really benefit from booster. Maybe it would give it a niche on ground but for steel, you need the consistent speed boost of scarf or you are running sash/AV. I think scarf on steel is still the best and booster does not help at all as, steel likes to pivot around in way that prevent you from doing significant damage. Booster is the antithesis of steel's strat so ultimately, not such changes.
:Iron Bundle: Banned already.
:Iron Hands: On fighting, Av is required as you don't got good spdef pokemon to take shit like psychic and moonblast. On electric, I think that booster hands would be a plus because when pincurchin dies, you can still get the booster boost once more. Ultimately, for electric at least, it's a plus.
:Iron Jugulis:: Booster would actually make this usable as right now, dark has better spa users like gren, goltres, and hydreigon. With a spe boost, it would allow dark to have a nice cleaner and with spa boost, it gives dark an amazing breaker that, unlike goltres and hydrei, does not need a turn of setup. As for flying, it would give it a niche but I think flying can't fit it.
:Iron Moth:: With booster, agility sets would come back and its viability will improve but not by much since it's already amazing. However, poison is still not gonna run it often.
:Iron Thorns:: Booster would defo improve it as it would make ddance sets a lot more consistent. Ultimately, I don't think I have to say much.
:Iron Valiant:: This would be banned with booster. Speed booster makes you faster than everything other than regieleki which has to run max speed to outspeed you. This plus the fact that you can run calm mind or swords dance without the opponent knowing what it is makes it basically impossible to check.
:Iron Leaves:: Right now, it's decent on grass an psychic but with booster, it would be amazing.

TLDR: If booster was allowed, we would have to ban mane, moon, wake and val. However, it doesn't really make many more viable. the only ones that actually improve significantly would be leaves, slither, and jugulis. Tusk, tail, shocks, hands and moth are already decent for the specific types so their viability don't change much. Although yes, it would make shit types like grass and psychic a lot better, it doesn't make them meta. So, from a mathematical perspective, to legalize this item, we make 3 better but have to ban 4. Ultimately not worth it. Keep booster banned.
 

TheRealBigC

I COULD BE BANNED!
:Roaring Moon:: I don't I need to say much as to why with booster, this will be banned. Ddance, outrage, knock off(yes it got knock in DLC), acrobatics with a attack booster cleans teams like nothing else. with screen support on dark and dragon, it's very hard to check it after your team has been slightly weakened.
:Walking Wake:: Considering it got scald, booster wake would get banned. spa booster is impossible to switch into, and speed booster makes revenge killing impossible.
Claiming that Booster RM and WW would need to be banned before they're even tested is just ridiculous to me. RM getting a 30% boost and 110 BP Acrobatics is nice, but I really don't think it would be broken; there's tons of other arguably stronger set-up sweepers in the tier that are already more powerful than a theoretical Booster DD RM, such as Kingambit, Volcarona, Baxcalibur, Dragonite, and so on. I'd also say that if DD RM was really that good, we'd probably be seeing it right now even without Booster Energy, but we simply don't. There's plenty of answers to DD RM in the tier already, and none of these would likely change against Booster sets with the exception of Great Tusk. Also, again, while I know Mono is its own beast, this thing has been completely fine in every other Gen 9 tier even with Tera.

With regards to Wake, claiming Sp Atk Booster would be impossible to switch into is just not true considering there's already plenty of switch ins to its Specs set across a multitude of types, and Wake doesn't have any boosting options outside of Agility. Using Spe Booster would involve foregoing any form of damage boosting, and essentially just give Wake a one-time Scarf that lets it switch moves. Claiming that revenge killing it would be impossible is extremely questionable considering there are a plethora of faster Scarfers in the tier. The fact that these are one-time boosts is extremely pertinent here, as if any of these Booster mons are ever forced out, they're itemless. I would also say that gaining Scald hardly pushes Wake over the edge into banworthiness; a lot of its defensive checks either flat out have Water immunities or don't care about burn.

As for the rest of this post, I think you're severely underestimating how useful Booster Treads would be. It could serve as both speed control and hazard removal in one slot, providing valuable role compression. Furthermore, the fact that you described how nearly every Paradox mon in the meta can benefit from Booster and carve out new sets and niches in the tier contradicts your conclusion. I do agree that Booster Valiant and FM might be too much for the tier and ultimately the Booster Energy debate may boil down to a question of what is more preferable to keep in the tier between these mons and this item, but we will not know for sure unless Booster Energy is properly retested. A lot has changed in the tier since vanilla SV.
 
Claiming that Booster RM and WW would need to be banned before they're even tested is just ridiculous to me. RM getting a 30% boost and 110 BP Acrobatics is nice, but I really don't think it would be broken; there's tons of other arguably stronger set-up sweepers in the tier that are already more powerful than a theoretical Booster DD RM, such as Kingambit, Volcarona, Baxcalibur, Dragonite, and so on. I'd also say that if DD RM was really that good, we'd probably be seeing it right now even without Booster Energy, but we simply don't. There's plenty of answers to DD RM in the tier already, and none of these would likely change against Booster sets with the exception of Great Tusk. Also, again, while I know Mono is its own beast, this thing has been completely fine in every other Gen 9 tier even with Tera.

With regards to Wake, claiming Sp Atk Booster would be impossible to switch into is just not true considering there's already plenty of switch ins to its Specs set across a multitude of types, and Wake doesn't have any boosting options outside of Agility. Using Spe Booster would involve foregoing any form of damage boosting, and essentially just give Wake a one-time Scarf that lets it switch moves. Claiming that revenge killing it would be impossible is extremely questionable considering there are a plethora of faster Scarfers in the tier. The fact that these are one-time boosts is extremely pertinent here, as if any of these Booster mons are ever forced out, they're itemless. I would also say that gaining Scald hardly pushes Wake over the edge into banworthiness; a lot of its defensive checks either flat out have Water immunities or don't care about burn.

As for the rest of this post, I think you're severely underestimating how useful Booster Treads would be. It could serve as both speed control and hazard removal in one slot, providing valuable role compression. Furthermore, the fact that you described how nearly every Paradox mon in the meta can benefit from Booster and carve out new sets and niches in the tier contradicts your conclusion. I do agree that Booster Valiant and FM might be too much for the tier and ultimately the Booster Energy debate may boil down to a question of what is more preferable to keep in the tier between these mons and this item, but we will not know for sure unless Booster Energy is properly retested. A lot has changed in the tier since vanilla SV.
Thanks for pointing out the flaws. I was actually theorizing in my head as to whether banning flutter mane and iron valiant would be better than banning booster and I conclude that yes it is. Here is why.

These pokemon are playable on ghost, fairy, and fighting. Let's imagine a meta without those 2.

Fighting: Without valiant you lose your only special attacker and as such lost to things like will o wisp. To counter that, running infernape would be close to necessary as you don't want dark casually destroying you with sableye. On the other hand, it means that the mirror is no longer a "whose valiant can stay alive longer" battle which would be nice. This also means that the MU vs dragon is not longer be as free since lillig-h would need a lot of support to sweep through. I think ultimately this is a good change as it would allow for a bit more variety in fighting's team choices.

Ghost: For ghost, this loss would be catastrophic. Ghost already has a really bad time against dark but without mane, it's close to impossible. Assuming annihilape gets banned, you have to rely on mimikyu to be your fairy attacker and mimi is often too slow or not strong enough to check the pokemon mane does. However, it would give many types like fighting more of chance to break through. Considering how ghost is currently pretty meh with mane, I think that without it, it drop to mid tier, or worse, low tier.

Fairy: This is going to hurt for fairy. However, even if fairy is going to take a huge hit, I don't think it will drop to high tier, I still think it will be top tier alongside water, dark and flying. The main reason is the number of buffs fairy got. First, it got free screens on alolan ninetails. Second, azimarill got knock off back. Third, clef is back. Those 3 thing are enough to make fairy really good. BD azu does nicely against steel, clef can just run whatever set and make it work, and alolan ninetail setting screens will make sweepers like the aforementioned azumarill have a much easier time setting up.

TLDR: I think this is a good change as it's healthy for fighting and fairy but absolutely terrible for ghost. Hence, overall, a decent change. However, I think this depends on the community. If these changes are things people really hate, then we should not add booster to the tier. So, like TheRealBigC said, retest the item and have a community vote. However, I think we should avoid this topic right now as a number of pokemon like baxcalibur, annihilape, and urshifu-single need quickbans.
 
Booster Energy boosts too many Paradox Pokemon over the edge, we will revisit this decision in DLC 2.
Maroon, or any council member, can you give a full breakdown as to how pokemon other than flutter mane and iron valiant would need to be banned. The statement the council released is very vague so it would help if you provided more information.
 

maroon

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Maroon, or any council member, can you give a full breakdown as to how pokemon other than flutter mane and iron valiant would need to be banned. The statement the council released is very vague so it would help if you provided more information.
Going to answer based on why I voted no, not speaking for other members of the council here.

Roaring Moon could potentially be problematic especially given all the ways it can be supported on Dark teams. Booster Energy+ DD, Knock Off, Acrobatics, and EQ could easily snowball and take out a majority of the metagame bar the tiers fastest scarfers. Great Tusk also potentially becomes problematic as I could see its Bulk Up sets with a speed boost also snowballing quickly due to its great bulk and offensive capabilities. Walking Wake could boost its Speed/Special Attack then run Sunny Day or Agility depending on which stat it boosted, allowing it to become a dangerous sweeper. Again this decision will probably be looked at for dlc2 but for now it remains banned.

tldr, it just opens up to many strong offensively oriented sets for paradox pokemon due to speed boosts.
 
I can't be the only one who finds this sad. We get all these cool paradox Mon, who all get the same busted ability and no possible secondary ability to make them unique, then it's so busted they get banned or the item to use it gets banned. Don't get me wrong, it's kinda cool to have elec teams use multiple paradox Mon to boost on elec terrain, it gives them character. I just wish they had something else so they aren't just beatsticks with an ability that never comes up. How about levitate for iron moth (I mean it's already flying) or tough claws for Cresent?
 

TheRealBigC

I COULD BE BANNED!
I can't be the only one who finds this sad. We get all these cool paradox Mon, who all get the same busted ability and no possible secondary ability to make them unique, then it's so busted they get banned or the item to use it gets banned. Don't get me wrong, it's kinda cool to have elec teams use multiple paradox Mon to boost on elec terrain, it gives them character. I just wish they had something else so they aren't just beatsticks with an ability that never comes up. How about levitate for iron moth (I mean it's already flying) or tough claws for Cresent?
Give Flutter Mane Beads of Ruin Game Freak
 

DugZa

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The Monotype tiering council has decided to conduct a Tiering Survey to gather the community opinion about the current state of the tier and to determine how best to take tiering action on Ice-type as a whole moving forward. More information can be found here; please respond to the survey!!

The survey will remain open until 1st of October, 11.59 PM GMT-4 but the council will be reading responses as they come in. Feel free to contact me if you have any questions.
 
Taken the survey, forgot to save Screen shot but I don't support the ban on RS Urshifu or Bax, I think both are strong but manageable. I do, however, support the Light Clay and Icy Rock bans. Both makes Screens and Snow teams, respectively, way too strong. I also want Chien Pao banned, that thing is way too fast and powerful. Thank god it didn't get Knock Off in the DLC.
 

TheRealBigC

I COULD BE BANNED!
Taken the survey, forgot to save Screen shot but I don't support the ban on RS Urshifu or Bax, I think both are strong but manageable. I do, however, support the Light Clay and Icy Rock bans. Both makes Screens and Snow teams, respectively, way too strong. I also want Chien Pao banned, that thing is way too fast and powerful. Thank god it didn't get Knock Off in the DLC.
That question in the survey was about Urshifu-Single-Strike (Urshifu-S), not Urshifu-Rapid-Strike (Urshifu-R)
 
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