Oops...Can I edit my survey? Single Strike wrecks everything that isn't a Fairy.
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Metagame SV Monotype Metagame Discussion [Teal Mask]
- Thread starter DugZa
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Personally I think the only tiering action that should happen is Baxcalibur and Urshifu-S. In particular in regards to ice; Banning Icy Rock, Light Clay, or Alolan Ninetales will not solve the main problem people were largely complaining about in regards to ice: Baxcalibur.
Baxcalibur can still easily come in, set up and win rather you have 8 turn snow or 8 turn aurora veil. No other pokemon on ice is like this, and we know this because the only major thing that offensively changed in regards to ice was that baxcalibur got scale shot. We all know Baxcalibur is a stupid designed pokemon, and something should be done with it. Then see if Ice is still overbearing because imo if you get rid of Bax ice is fine and healthy.
TLDR: Just ban bax, any other ban or suspect on ice would feel like you're dancing around the issue that is bax.
Baxcalibur can still easily come in, set up and win rather you have 8 turn snow or 8 turn aurora veil. No other pokemon on ice is like this, and we know this because the only major thing that offensively changed in regards to ice was that baxcalibur got scale shot. We all know Baxcalibur is a stupid designed pokemon, and something should be done with it. Then see if Ice is still overbearing because imo if you get rid of Bax ice is fine and healthy.
TLDR: Just ban bax, any other ban or suspect on ice would feel like you're dancing around the issue that is bax.
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Gonna be honest about the whole Baxcalibur situation, it is the problem, no other ice type aside from maybe Chien-Pao can abuse snow and Aurora Veil like Bax and its Swords dance loaded dice scale shot icicle spear shenanigans.
I'll give my thoughts since I have played the metagame for the past week; I think I have played enough to form an at least somewhat informed opinion.
Regarding what was up for ban, I think the council is correct in identifying where there are issues with Annihilape, Urshifu, and Ice teams, which are all problematic elements. My primary point of disagreement is that Icy Rock is the issue, which I think is incorrect, as in the pre-home meta, there did not seem to be any issues with snow. While we could chalk up this Alolan Ninetales being a superior Veil setter compared to Abomasnow because of Alolan Ninetales' better typing, speed, and movepool, we are not acknowledging the significant change in Baxcalibur getting Scale Shot allowing it to fix its low speed while also having a powerful attack effectively making SD Baxcalibur a dangerous option. To an extent, Scale Shot makes Baxcalibur more unpredictable, as figuring out whether Baxcalibur is DD or SD can be problematic and is primarily up to guessing which one it is. The main reason I see restricting Light Clay or Icy Rock is that Baxcalibur is not overwhelming on Dragon teams because it does not have snow or Auoura Veil. However, I do not think players understand the full extent of how powerful Baxcalibur could be on Dragon, given Shed Tail, Screens, and Hazard support Dragon could easily provide. So the main question is why Baxcalibur seems fine on Dragon but is perceived as a significant threat on Ice. My thoughts on this dilemma are that we should look at Baxcalibur first, and if Ice is still too powerful, then we should look to tiering action for Light Clay or Aurora Veil, but I doubt this will be the case.
I look forward to seeing how players can prove Baxcalibur is a massive threat on Dragon. I see the discussion focusing on Ice because Ice is a powerful force in the metagame, so the player base is trying to identify what makes Ice so powerful. Icy Rock and Aurora Veil are logical places to start, but we should not ignore Baxcalibur.
I also made a video detailing my initial thoughts on the bans for those who like listening to videos.
I would love to hear other players' thoughts on what tiering action we should take regarding certain problematic elements.
Regarding what was up for ban, I think the council is correct in identifying where there are issues with Annihilape, Urshifu, and Ice teams, which are all problematic elements. My primary point of disagreement is that Icy Rock is the issue, which I think is incorrect, as in the pre-home meta, there did not seem to be any issues with snow. While we could chalk up this Alolan Ninetales being a superior Veil setter compared to Abomasnow because of Alolan Ninetales' better typing, speed, and movepool, we are not acknowledging the significant change in Baxcalibur getting Scale Shot allowing it to fix its low speed while also having a powerful attack effectively making SD Baxcalibur a dangerous option. To an extent, Scale Shot makes Baxcalibur more unpredictable, as figuring out whether Baxcalibur is DD or SD can be problematic and is primarily up to guessing which one it is. The main reason I see restricting Light Clay or Icy Rock is that Baxcalibur is not overwhelming on Dragon teams because it does not have snow or Auoura Veil. However, I do not think players understand the full extent of how powerful Baxcalibur could be on Dragon, given Shed Tail, Screens, and Hazard support Dragon could easily provide. So the main question is why Baxcalibur seems fine on Dragon but is perceived as a significant threat on Ice. My thoughts on this dilemma are that we should look at Baxcalibur first, and if Ice is still too powerful, then we should look to tiering action for Light Clay or Aurora Veil, but I doubt this will be the case.
I look forward to seeing how players can prove Baxcalibur is a massive threat on Dragon. I see the discussion focusing on Ice because Ice is a powerful force in the metagame, so the player base is trying to identify what makes Ice so powerful. Icy Rock and Aurora Veil are logical places to start, but we should not ignore Baxcalibur.
I also made a video detailing my initial thoughts on the bans for those who like listening to videos.
I don't see why you would need to prove Bax is a massive threat on both types. Pre Home Pao is a mon that should've been suspected, post home it was a mon many people wanted to look at then too. Pao however, was never seen as a threat because of it's danger on BOTH Ice and Dark, but solely from it's threat as a mon on mono Dark - where it was still largely recognized as lacking support in terms of hazard removal.
A big difference between Ice and Dragon Bax from my opinion is not only the instant support it can get in Snow + Aurora Veil - essentially a +1 defense boost + screens only taking 1 turn, but coverage wise I don't really favor Bax running Scale Shot on Dragon. Not to mention I find it more difficult to drop Heavy Duty Boots there. I'm a big fan of Bax's SD dragon set, and have been since we first got Bax, but on Dragon I don't think you're really capable of dropping Ice Shard - a move that allows Bax to help as revenge killer for common threats such as Enamorus. It still needs a strong Ice STAB to break Corv, and EQ I see as having greater coverage with the main benefit of Glaive Rush being the ability to beat Quag. Either way, Dragon Stab isn't the most useful, it's already needed to run Ice Shard priority so the +1 speed of Scale Shot isn't as helpful, plus comp wise Bax fills a bit of a different role. On Ice, Bax's Dragon typing offers many more cases where it's resistances stand out amongst it's team, and since it doesn't need to run Ice Shard - it's set up becomes SD/DD + Ice Stab(Icicle Spear) + Dragon Stab(Scale Shot) + Sub or EQ. This basically means it's able to reliably fit 2 100-125BP Stab moves, alongside either Sub to make it far easier to setup and take advantage of types such as Poison, or Earthquake to make sure Bax has no resists vs. types such as Water. Even if you were to limit Icy Rock or Light Clay, Bax's ability to be more free with it's moveset on Ice will always make it more of a threat.
I will also point out that Icy Rock seems worse to me then Light Clay. While you can defog Screens, or Brick Break/Psychic Fang/Raging Bull Screens, there are far fewer options to get rid of Snow. Support wise and comp wise, Bax will almost always be less important on Dragon, as it's nowhere near a key mon and has become quite optional post DLC. Even though it's still a strong mon - and has always been one of the best 1v6 mons in the game, on Dragon it'll never stand out the same, and comp wise won't be able to run as threatening a set. The way I see it, Bax is good on Dragon - but it'll never be overpowered on Dragon. On the otherhand, we could ban Light Clay(which is more then unnecessary), we can ban Icy Rock(I don't know if this would be a needed ban either), and we'll still have a Baxcalibur far more capable on Ice then we would on Dragon.
I don't know what the proper way to go is for addressing Bax - but starting with Light Clay makes no sense. If you want to focus on Ice and Bax, you don't start with an item ban that limits a whole playstyle when it's not anywhere near broken outside of Ice - and isn't the perpetrator really of Bax being broken to begin with. What makes most sense to me: If we don't want to start with a Bax suspect/ban outright, we start with Icy Rock. If problem persists, we do a bax suspect/ban and suspect an Icy Rock unban.
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My rough thoughts on the tiering survey.
Bax and Urshifu are both incredibly prominent problems right now. But one is a recent major issue thanks to the DLC and the other has already been banned before. However they (along with the items which are also issues) are allowing Chien and Gambit to slip under the radar for some people and that is not okay.
(I also think I said Flutter action, but I don't remember what I do at 3am.)
Bax and Urshifu are both incredibly prominent problems right now. But one is a recent major issue thanks to the DLC and the other has already been banned before. However they (along with the items which are also issues) are allowing Chien and Gambit to slip under the radar for some people and that is not okay.
(I also think I said Flutter action, but I don't remember what I do at 3am.)
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What makes Ice so powerful in the current metagame is all the unique attributes it has as an offensive type despite being a terrible defensive one. Snow giving x1.5 Defense is a huge change this generation which makes setup even more deadly behind the already automatic Aurora Veil, with Baxcalibur being the prime example. Alongside being able to set screens and largely beneficial weather, it has a good hold on keeping that support system up with Alolan Ninetales being able to beat a primary weather setter in Pelipper and Ice as a whole is good against Defog users with the majority of them being taken advantage of by Baxcalibur. Brick Break and Psychic Fangs users are honestly not that common in the current metagame, with many of them being beaten by Alolan Ninetales or Chien-pao; if you really want you can run Froslass for the immunity. Personally, from Ice's impact I can't really say I see Baxcalibur staying in the tier as time goes on; I feel like it scuffs teambuilding and playing immensely and far from the point of where it would be considered healthy. Its combination of power, coverage, bulk, and ability makes it super hard to deal with defensively even without all the additional support Ice provides.
From a building sense, Baxcalibur does have common "answers" that can beat it 1v1, but they're for the most part not sufficient long term. It can be argued that Pokemon like Sableye, Quagsire, Kingambit, and Galarian Weezing all answer it in some way, but they're all mainly situational. Sableye can only beat it if you switch it in on a setup turn, which isn't reliable considering with Scale Shot Baxcalibur does not need to click Swords Dance to win. Quagsire 1v1s it with Toxic but is held back by 8 PP Recover alongside the fact that Ice teams carry Spikes a lot, not to mention that Substitute Baxcalibur can take advantage of it as Earthquake does not break Substitute under snow. Kingambit and Galarian Weezing only beats it if it's unboosted and not under Aurora Veil or snow (in the case of Kingambit), which is unrealistic. For the most part, players are going to be relying on a combination of factors to beat Baxcalibur consistently with the support at its arsenal.
I feel like a lot of other teammates that Baxcalibur has is overlooked apart from Alolan Ninetales. Alolan Sandslash is an incredible remover and ensures that hazards are not on the field with Knock Off to threaten spinblockers unless you're going against a Ghost team, which means you can pretty much count on Baxcalibur not taking hazards damage when it comes in. If Baxcalibur's taking hazards damage, then you're probably against Ghost and Chien-pao eats that anyways. Froslass's Spikes are super annoying to any team not named Flying, and if you're Flying, well, Baxcalibur owns you regardless. Personally I would love to see Ice in a practical setting being used in tournament play and gauge Baxcalibur's impact from that, but I don't feel like any metagame development that happens around Ice being powerful would be healthy in a major team tournament such as MWP. You would almost never be using something like Dondozo, Iron Defense Corviknight, Tyranitar on Dark, Brick Break Scizor, or defensive Gyarados in this stage of SV Monotype if not for Baxcalibur, which shows how metagame warping it can be. The fact that someone can load up Ice and automatically have a really good chance of winning like 14/18 matchups (sucks against Bug, Fire, Fairy, and Steel) shows how powerful the support is. It's incredibly hard to account for in the builder for a majority of types, and a big indicator of this is that it definitely seems like the metagame has been divided into two categories since DLC 1 dropped: teams that can handle Baxcalibur Ice and teams that can't.
In my opinion, the best way to handle Baxcalibur would be through a community suspect test as soon as possible so that it doesn't interfere with MWP in the winter. Banning Light Clay or Icy Rock doesn't make sense as removing the former restricts healthy archetypes like screens Fairy and Dark while the latter can easily be replaced by the former (and is probably the inferior item regardless). Neither of them are actually the problem; in reality Baxcalibur is.
For the rest of the metagame, nothing really stands out to me as broken right now; the closest thing would be Urshifu-S but the metagame being this offensive hurts it somewhat. Chien-pao and Kingambit both seem pretty tame; Chien-pao would be a lot more broken but then GameFreak decided to give every other Pokemon and its mom Vaccum Wave which has owned its viability somewhat. I still feel like losing to Kingambit is more or less bad building or playing in this metagame, Pokemon like Gliscor and Mandibuzz coming back really hurts it coupled to it not being too threatening pre-DLC. For now, it's just a really good Pokemon that pulls off a sweep with smart play.
From a building sense, Baxcalibur does have common "answers" that can beat it 1v1, but they're for the most part not sufficient long term. It can be argued that Pokemon like Sableye, Quagsire, Kingambit, and Galarian Weezing all answer it in some way, but they're all mainly situational. Sableye can only beat it if you switch it in on a setup turn, which isn't reliable considering with Scale Shot Baxcalibur does not need to click Swords Dance to win. Quagsire 1v1s it with Toxic but is held back by 8 PP Recover alongside the fact that Ice teams carry Spikes a lot, not to mention that Substitute Baxcalibur can take advantage of it as Earthquake does not break Substitute under snow. Kingambit and Galarian Weezing only beats it if it's unboosted and not under Aurora Veil or snow (in the case of Kingambit), which is unrealistic. For the most part, players are going to be relying on a combination of factors to beat Baxcalibur consistently with the support at its arsenal.
I feel like a lot of other teammates that Baxcalibur has is overlooked apart from Alolan Ninetales. Alolan Sandslash is an incredible remover and ensures that hazards are not on the field with Knock Off to threaten spinblockers unless you're going against a Ghost team, which means you can pretty much count on Baxcalibur not taking hazards damage when it comes in. If Baxcalibur's taking hazards damage, then you're probably against Ghost and Chien-pao eats that anyways. Froslass's Spikes are super annoying to any team not named Flying, and if you're Flying, well, Baxcalibur owns you regardless. Personally I would love to see Ice in a practical setting being used in tournament play and gauge Baxcalibur's impact from that, but I don't feel like any metagame development that happens around Ice being powerful would be healthy in a major team tournament such as MWP. You would almost never be using something like Dondozo, Iron Defense Corviknight, Tyranitar on Dark, Brick Break Scizor, or defensive Gyarados in this stage of SV Monotype if not for Baxcalibur, which shows how metagame warping it can be. The fact that someone can load up Ice and automatically have a really good chance of winning like 14/18 matchups (sucks against Bug, Fire, Fairy, and Steel) shows how powerful the support is. It's incredibly hard to account for in the builder for a majority of types, and a big indicator of this is that it definitely seems like the metagame has been divided into two categories since DLC 1 dropped: teams that can handle Baxcalibur Ice and teams that can't.
In my opinion, the best way to handle Baxcalibur would be through a community suspect test as soon as possible so that it doesn't interfere with MWP in the winter. Banning Light Clay or Icy Rock doesn't make sense as removing the former restricts healthy archetypes like screens Fairy and Dark while the latter can easily be replaced by the former (and is probably the inferior item regardless). Neither of them are actually the problem; in reality Baxcalibur is.
For the rest of the metagame, nothing really stands out to me as broken right now; the closest thing would be Urshifu-S but the metagame being this offensive hurts it somewhat. Chien-pao and Kingambit both seem pretty tame; Chien-pao would be a lot more broken but then GameFreak decided to give every other Pokemon and its mom Vaccum Wave which has owned its viability somewhat. I still feel like losing to Kingambit is more or less bad building or playing in this metagame, Pokemon like Gliscor and Mandibuzz coming back really hurts it coupled to it not being too threatening pre-DLC. For now, it's just a really good Pokemon that pulls off a sweep with smart play.
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would i be cooking if i said a9 is the most banworthy threat in ice type rn?
TheRealBigC
I COULD BE BANNED!
Ninetales-A enables broken threats. It excels at setting screens due to its speed and decent bulk, and further supports its team through threatening Water- and Fighting-types. However, it is not in of itself broken at all. Picture a meta where Ninetales-A is supporting Weavile and Cloyster instead of Chien-Pao and Baxcalibur; would you really say Ninetales-A would still be banworthy?
I honestly fail to see how this conversation is at all complicated because lets say you do ban A-tales. Guess what? You just run Abomasnow to achieve similar results with Bax. Ban Icy Rock? Use Light Clay (or vice versa). Baxcalibur will still be a problem. Ban A-tales, abomasnow, icy rock and light clay? Well done, you just banned 4 things and limited various archetypes (or in this scenario outright killed ice as a whole) to order to make the actual problem....still a problem just with lesser freedom on when it wins. EVEN then, I would argue you would see people run snowscape on some ice mon to set up snow in order for Baxcalibur to still come in and win. Thats why I said none of the other options feel like good solutions and just dancing around the issue.
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I struggled a lot to make up my mind on what to write on the survey due to how difficult it is to get an objective grasp of the meta in Mono with all the different match-up possibilities and team concepts, but I've filed it up now.
I think the banning (or at very least suspect) of baxcalibur is a given and a mere matter of time. Ice is much stronger now with things like Ninetales-A and reworked Snow, but it's honestly not as scary or overbearing without Baxcalibur's ability to 6v1 almost any team. Any thoughts on Icy Rock or Light Clay should come up after banning Baxcalibur if Ice is still a problem.
Light Clay in particular could be useful to nerf Ice and Fairy at the same time, as they're the main types that use screens (mostly due to the same mon being too good at it), and I can see a discussion on it's effect on the meta, but don't think it's the main issue right now. Gave it a Neutral Opinion cause I think it can be a good point to look at, but not fully sure if it deserves action right away.
As for Urshifu-Dark, none of my teams struggled much against it. Even more so, I didn't confront many. My lack of personal experience on this is what made me most unsure on what to write on the survey. I gave it "generally unbalanced" because I know what it can do and can see it being very dangerous, but I was close to "Neutral" for lack of info. Wouldn't miss it if it were gone, though.
Lastly, I noted Ursaluna BM as one of the other things to look at. I honestly didn't have much to say on this corner, as again, I'm not confident enough on my perspective of the meta being accurate, but this thing does too much in all matches. Ground and Normal are not in their best moment right now, specially not with Water being as good as always and Ice better than ever (and Normal has never been particularly impressive) which is why it's probably not a problem, but at least in a type-match vacuum, I think it can become an issue.
I think the banning (or at very least suspect) of baxcalibur is a given and a mere matter of time. Ice is much stronger now with things like Ninetales-A and reworked Snow, but it's honestly not as scary or overbearing without Baxcalibur's ability to 6v1 almost any team. Any thoughts on Icy Rock or Light Clay should come up after banning Baxcalibur if Ice is still a problem.
Light Clay in particular could be useful to nerf Ice and Fairy at the same time, as they're the main types that use screens (mostly due to the same mon being too good at it), and I can see a discussion on it's effect on the meta, but don't think it's the main issue right now. Gave it a Neutral Opinion cause I think it can be a good point to look at, but not fully sure if it deserves action right away.
As for Urshifu-Dark, none of my teams struggled much against it. Even more so, I didn't confront many. My lack of personal experience on this is what made me most unsure on what to write on the survey. I gave it "generally unbalanced" because I know what it can do and can see it being very dangerous, but I was close to "Neutral" for lack of info. Wouldn't miss it if it were gone, though.
Lastly, I noted Ursaluna BM as one of the other things to look at. I honestly didn't have much to say on this corner, as again, I'm not confident enough on my perspective of the meta being accurate, but this thing does too much in all matches. Ground and Normal are not in their best moment right now, specially not with Water being as good as always and Ice better than ever (and Normal has never been particularly impressive) which is why it's probably not a problem, but at least in a type-match vacuum, I think it can become an issue.
Ban all the Ogerpons, please. They are ruining the stall playstyle.
I am genuinely curious, if ogerpon did not exist, what type would even be able to reliably run stall?
Probably Water since Ogerpon-H's ability Mold Breaker ingores Sap Sipper Azumarill. Poison is another bulkier type, however, I don't see how Ogerpon would affect stall on the type.
Stall has always been bad in Monotype because it’s much harder to switch around resistances, and banning Ogerpon would do little to change that. Water is better off running balance or rain HO, Poison could theoretically run Stall, but that type is plagued with issues already.
Ogerpon isn’t even the main threat to stall teams. Calm Mind Blood Moon Ursaluna, Taunt Gliscor, NP Gholdengo, NP Landorus, SD Baxcalibur, there’s just way too many strong offensive Pokemon.
can we see some replays of bax being unreasonable?
What is the current consensus on types at the moment? Poison got a bunch of new Mons, but I barely see replays, ice was op but there's ban talks, what about the rest of the types? It's hard to get a proper read on everything through random monotype matches
TheRealBigC
I COULD BE BANNED!
Not really sure what the "consensus" is and it's difficult to put something like a tier list together considering the meta has only been out for about 2 weeks and is pretty volatile, but I think Dark, Water, Fighting, and Ground are pretty clearly some of the best types around right now due to the numerous buffs they got in the DLC. Ice I think is a little bit more nuanced than some people say. On paper, yes Baxcalibur tears most of the meta apart; however, it can be tricky at times to actually maneuver it into a position where it can sweep due to the relatively poor support options on Ice outside of Ninetales-A, the popularity of checks such as Quagsire, Kingambit, and various faster Scarfers who can revenge kill it, and the need to use Scale Shot to reach +1 Speed if using an SD set. Ice itself is also very vulnerable to being mu fished by types like Fighting, Fire, and Bug where it really feels like you can't do anything, so I'm loathe to call it overall "OP". That being said I do think Baxcalibur is an overall unhealthy presence in the metagame that exacerbates its mu oriented issues and should probably be banned. As for the rest of the types, I feel most are more or less on roughly the same level as pre-DLC. Poison and especially Grass have significantly improved due to receiving crucial mons to patch up their weaknesses, and Flying, Ghost, and Electric have all somewhat declined due to them not receiving many new options while the rest of the types have improved around them.
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Any advice for dealing with Chien-Pao with Mono-Ground? I'm using a custom Balance team I made and have refined over the course of the last couple days. Hesitant to post it since I'm hoping to go for suspect reqs with it. Right now my strategy against Pao is "hope they misplay". My team handles the Ice type well as a whole (Mamoswine is my dad) but Cheems's unfortunate Fighting coverage makes that line of defense very penetrable. Advice would be appreciated 
TheRealBigC
I COULD BE BANNED!
Body Press Quagsire is your friend. Vacuum Wave from Ursaluna-B and Scarf Great Tusk or Iron Treads can also revenge kill PaoAny advice for dealing with Chien-Pao with Mono-Ground? I'm using a custom Balance team I made and have refined over the course of the last couple days. Hesitant to post it since I'm hoping to go for suspect reqs with it. Right now my strategy against Pao is "hope they misplay". My team handles the Ice type well as a whole (Mamoswine is my dad) but Cheems's unfortunate Fighting coverage makes that line of defense very penetrable. Advice would be appreciated
I personally find Vacuum wave Ursaluna-BM to be the best option for non-sash Chien-Pao sets.Any advice for dealing with Chien-Pao with Mono-Ground? I'm using a custom Balance team I made and have refined over the course of the last couple days. Hesitant to post it since I'm hoping to go for suspect reqs with it. Right now my strategy against Pao is "hope they misplay". My team handles the Ice type well as a whole (Mamoswine is my dad) but Cheems's unfortunate Fighting coverage makes that line of defense very penetrable. Advice would be appreciated
The Baxcalibur suspect test has concluded; Baxcalibur remains legal in SV Monotype: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-monotype-suspect-2-baxcalibur.3729729/post-9824313
Looking forward to seeing discussion about everyone's thoughts on the suspect test results and the state of the metagame moving forward.
Looking forward to seeing discussion about everyone's thoughts on the suspect test results and the state of the metagame moving forward.
My disappointment is immeasurable and my day has been positively ruined.
The scale shot SD icicle spear BS continues
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