you know, this sounds like it might make a pretty interesting micrometa…
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]
- Thread starter TPP
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Oh yeah sure countless pages of Tera Discussion are useless but if we ask nicely then we get it
I didn't have to sit through "let's ONLY ban tera fairy on kingambit" BS for that to go unrecognized, we are still FIGHTING in that thread
Unlikely, would have to be the verdict of a Tera suspect, which is not currently planned
dropping palafin, though, that just needs a survey
Can you stop being annoying lol
if i were capable of that, i'd have actual friends instead of hanging out here all day being a nuisance. i've driven away everyone in my life. believe it or not, i'm as sick of me as you are, but at least you're blessed with the ability to ignore me. i can't escape myself
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Can’t really comment on whatever may be going on in life, but we are all friends and friendly on here. To the people you agree with to the people you disagree with, Smogon has been one large group of likeminded, oft-friendly folk. We got you and know how much value you have based on the many insights you share!
I’m sorry you aren’t feeling the best about things and I didn’t mean to call you out. I hope things improve
Finch is the leader of OU and my heart
thanks, and don't worry about it, i have been kind of a shit lately and i deserved a callout. my life has just been way busier than usual over the past couple weeks and i guess the stress is leaking out here. i've also kind of given up on pre-dlc ou after the gambit suspect so i've run out of productive things to add to the conversation. things should get better once we have a meta that isn't so… temporary
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Bout to drop a devious laugh react.
I'd rather with more quickbans and less surveys with a lower thresholds to ban things
The problem with QBs is that with this large of a player base you get the “Volcarona Reaction” more times than not
simple: fuck em
They've been pretty good about QBs, the volc one was the only case you could call out as abusive of QBs.
1) It happened around WCOP so the vote was forced for that instead of properly analyzed.
2) 0-9 to 7-2, first vote implied there was no incentive at all for a QB, and again, WCOP happened and out of no where everyone's minds changed just to not see it there.
3) QB is for immediate egregious problems, volc was in the tier for 6 whole fucking months and even though there was request to be 'looked at', it wasn't anywhere near a QB request during that time frame and nothing changed for it besides gaining more checks with home when the vote happened. At least urshifu was something too broken to be let in, but you can't go from 6 months of tolerating something to plucking it out like its personal.
4) its too late to matter now but the fact it got that bad of a reaction and they stuck to their guns on it really soured how much the council listens to community feedback, it was very clearly not the right thing to do and the only damage control was that they said they would suspect it later (never happened and probably never would if it wasn't for DLC drop timing). At least now volc's value after being gone has been recognized given its a good check to zama/king/valiant, all pokemon not leaving anytime soon especially since the 2 former survived their suspects and are here to stay.
Even if many thought it was ban worthy, majority of those still believes a proper suspect with the 60% vote to ban (not to unban) is the proper way to lay it to rest instead of keeping it banned just for fun.
1) It happened around WCOP so the vote was forced for that instead of properly analyzed.
2) 0-9 to 7-2, first vote implied there was no incentive at all for a QB, and again, WCOP happened and out of no where everyone's minds changed just to not see it there.
3) QB is for immediate egregious problems, volc was in the tier for 6 whole fucking months and even though there was request to be 'looked at', it wasn't anywhere near a QB request during that time frame and nothing changed for it besides gaining more checks with home when the vote happened. At least urshifu was something too broken to be let in, but you can't go from 6 months of tolerating something to plucking it out like its personal.
4) its too late to matter now but the fact it got that bad of a reaction and they stuck to their guns on it really soured how much the council listens to community feedback, it was very clearly not the right thing to do and the only damage control was that they said they would suspect it later (never happened and probably never would if it wasn't for DLC drop timing). At least now volc's value after being gone has been recognized given its a good check to zama/king/valiant, all pokemon not leaving anytime soon especially since the 2 former survived their suspects and are here to stay.
Even if many thought it was ban worthy, majority of those still believes a proper suspect with the 60% vote to ban (not to unban) is the proper way to lay it to rest instead of keeping it banned just for fun.
even if the council listened to every single result of the surveys and took it as suspect tests, it'd still never be a democracy, it'd still be a thing where the council is at times inviting us to give our opinion, and then nothing else.
The Council has to choose to make a survey in the first place. The ball is in their court. The Council then has to choose things that they wish to get feedback on. The ball is in their court. Then they have to actually act on any survey result. The ball is in their court.
Frankly, the Council even looking for community opinion on Volcarona is going above and beyond for something they obviously wanted gone, and a sizable amount of players did in fact want gone.
Quickban recovery moves and Regenerator, all hail our HO overlords.
I think we should ban every single offensive move. Let's see how much big stall can win when it isn't handicapped by dumb things like "game mechanics" and "people playing normally"
This meta was in a weird spot the entire time, and I imagine the DLC1 meta will be much the same way with DLC2 coming ~December. It feels like there was no way to win or satisfy even a majority of players, much less everyone, with how many things there are to juggle. I do not envy the council, but they've done a pretty good job balancing things despite it all. Excited to see just how batshit the meta becomes from here
This meta was in a weird spot the entire time, and I imagine the DLC1 meta will be much the same way with DLC2 coming ~December. It feels like there was no way to win or satisfy even a majority of players, much less everyone, with how many things there are to juggle. I do not envy the council, but they've done a pretty good job balancing things despite it all. Excited to see just how batshit the meta becomes from here
You realize even in a democracy there's individuals that have to approve whatever democrats are asking for right?
Democrats can't just ask Joe Biden to change the currency to ice cream, and even if he alone was bat shit crazy enough and wanted that he couldn't do it cause there's a congress, house of representatives, etc. The tier leaders are in no different of a position there and they aren't dictators that have the power to do whatever they please, they have standards to follow too.
Showdown is nothing without its community, if you upset said community or make a Gamefreak-tier decision you affect the playerbase and everything goes to shit. This is why suspect test are thing, because it puts the result in the community's hands and it has been that way for many generations. Its a system that works and works well even if some results are opinionated as incorrect, they often do get revisited to re-validate them (see aegislash, another very controversial ban, that lead into a 2nd suspect in ORAS that was very easily convincing the ban was correct). You can't say "the ball is always in their court" because it really isnt, if the council did what it wanted, or could do, it'd probably be a dead competitive scene by now, its really not all in their hands they have to listen to feedback and their own regulations.
Infact quickbans were rarely a thing beyond the first few weeks of each generation/game drop, cause they were not enabling the community to engage enough, they just got the correct ones lately because, again, QBs are for inarguably egregious issues and with DLC drops there's little time for major suspects. Volc was not one of those egregious important bans especially after 6 months and other "would be automatic council vote bans" like kingambit proved they don't need to leave yet either.
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Great recap.
One thing I'm wondering though, is there a list of mons that dropped to unranked this VR slate? While I appreciate the new format of updating the VR, making it easier to see the changes, that section from previous slates appears to be missing.
Great question
Azelf, Froslass, Glastrier, Kleavor, and Uxie all dropped to UR
The thing about lowering thresholds for bans is that we can simultaneously lower the threshold for unbans. If Palafin were dropped, instead of agonizing back-and-forth over two weeks, we can say "Oh, this WAS a bad idea," and boot it after being in the tier less than 48 hours.
It was a very different metagame and very different time, however Gen 6 UU, across XY and ORAS, was fantastically balanced thanks to Kokoloko's aggressive policy. Any time a Dex update dropped, anything that was remotely questionable got a quickban to BL, and once the tier reached a point of stability each element was dropped one by one for a test, almost completely bypassing any problems of broken-checking-broken.
I hope this does not read as an advocation for adopting that exact strategy. Just a historical observation that OU tends to be more conservative in its tiering and suggestion to loosen the belt even the tiniest bit.
It was a very different metagame and very different time, however Gen 6 UU, across XY and ORAS, was fantastically balanced thanks to Kokoloko's aggressive policy. Any time a Dex update dropped, anything that was remotely questionable got a quickban to BL, and once the tier reached a point of stability each element was dropped one by one for a test, almost completely bypassing any problems of broken-checking-broken.
I hope this does not read as an advocation for adopting that exact strategy. Just a historical observation that OU tends to be more conservative in its tiering and suggestion to loosen the belt even the tiniest bit.
suicide leads are not eating well this gen. with the most used mon in the meta benefiting from having dead teammates and the existence of a new move that revives things, i would've thought froslass stocks would be a lot higher
Quickbans felt so necessary this generation because there were so many borderline pokemon that nobody could agree were broken or not. Full-on suspect tests accomplish very little with the playerbase so split and take too much time to suspect each potentially broken element. This is compounded by gamefreak's new DLC releases and dropping of pokemon in the middle of everything. The one thing everyone can agree on is that, to quote finch, we've "stayed around the outskirts of 'good metagame'". Something's wrong, but nobody can agree on how to fix it. I think the only solution is to be a little more liberal with the bans. Think of it this way: it's better to ban something innocent than keep something broken. If we have to sacrifice Sneasler for a metagame without the totally centralizing Kingambit, then we should. And like Schpoonman said, we can always just unban things later if there's enough support. This effectively makes the ban percentage requirement 40%, since the automatic status quo would be banned, and it's 60% unban. This could lead to some probably-ok or flavor-of-the-month pokemon getting banned, but like I said before, that is totally a worthy tradeoff for stability of the metagame.
I understand the frustration the Council has to deal with from so many mons taking center stage and exerting different forms of influence on the state of the game, such that it's hard to know what to hit and what not. After SwSh I'm sort of resigned to the idea that while we should try, odds are we won't hit a reasonable balance/time to try for one until DLC2 is out and we're done with major shake-ups (look at how Pre-Home fared with drip-feeds compared to Post-Home -> DLC1 and DLC2 already slated a couple months after).
I don't know what the plan is but odds are we'll need 2-3 days to sort through new and misinformation before we have a grasp on what changed and what's introduced with a tangible effect on where things are now.
I don't know what the plan is but odds are we'll need 2-3 days to sort through new and misinformation before we have a grasp on what changed and what's introduced with a tangible effect on where things are now.
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