Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[TCTphantom]

we have time for at least 3 more tests, i think. it's very likely that multiple mons will get high enough support on the next survey that we can have multiple suspects in relatively quick succession

Anything more than two tests is just unrealistic.

We just banned Ursaluna Blood Moon, which was a very centralizing force. We need to give the meta time to breathe so we can accurately assess our best path forward. Let’s say we give it about two weeks to settle. Then we have a survey for a week. Right as that ends, maybe we get our suspect. That lasts ten days, and we have voting. If the test isn’t as decisive as BM was, that’s probably going to take more than a day.

That alone is a roughly five week time table with the most optimistic of deadlines. There could be a noticeable delay between the survey results and the test for example. Even if we gave the meta less time to stabilize, it’s still likely going to be around 3 and a half weeks at least and more likely about a month. We don’t know when DLC2 is launching, but if it’s launching in mid November that doesn’t give us much room. Even an early December launch doesn’t give us much maneuverability.

Even if say, Kingambit, Waterpon, and Manaphy had the demand for a test and Volc had the demand for a retest, we just wouldn’t have time to give an earnest test to each. Let’s say Gambit was tested next and banned: that’s removing a super centralizing force from our meta. It’s gonna be super hard to say accurately if anything would or would not be broken since that meta would change dramatically. We might be able to look at two of them if we are lucky. More likely we will only have time for one.

Im also not even sure multiple things will reach that BM level for a test. Manaphy discussion has cooled down, Gambit is divisive, things like Alolatales and Gholdengo seem like DLC2 questions. Maybe you could swing a Waterpon test, but even then it doesn’t have the same fervor for a test and I can easily see it surviving. I think within the next two weeks we might see the demand for *maybe* a manaphy or Waterpon test. If I had to choose, I’d go manaphy since imo it makes Waterpon more desirable as a check to it, but idc. Idc if we don’t do any tests tbh, especially with some form of a reset on the horizon for DLC2.

 

[Soiramio3000]

do you think that ninetails is a good alternative for sun teams over torkoal?
it is true that it can neither set nor remove hazards, like torkoal but it can still lock the enemy set up pokemon with encore and use healing wish.

it can also deal more damage than torkoal thanks to the weather ball and the solarbeam.

edit: I forgot that torkoal also has weather ball, whatever, the solarbeam that does not need to charge is still a good move.

 

[Ehmcee]

do you think that ninetails is a good alternative for sun teams over torkoal?
it is true that it can neither set nor remove hazards, like torkoal but it can still lock the enemy set up pokemon with encore and use healing wish.

it can also deal more damage than torkoal thanks to the weather ball and the solarbeam.

edit: I forgot that torkoal also has weather ball, whatever, the solarbeam that does not need to charge is still a good move.

Torkoal also gets solar beam :P

In general, bulkier pokemon tend to function better as weather setters, as they have better odds of switching back in later in the game and tanking a hit.

Ninetales for example is extremely frail, so usually if you want to get sun back up, you can't really switch it into an attack, and will usually need a sack to bring it in safely. Torkoal however can usually tank a hit from basically any physical attacker, not only that but the great utility it has in Rocks/Spin and Yawn typically make it better at having longstanding utility during the game as well.

An example of this is that back in gen 8, sand teams primarily used Hippowdon as their setter instead of Tyranitar, this is because Hippowdon has much better bulk as well as reliable recovery, making it able to consistently set sand during the game, something which TTar just couldn't do.

Snow is kind of an exception, due to the way Aurora Veil works, and the fact you want to set it up as fast as possible, so Alolan Ninetales is kind of an anomaly in this regard.

 

[SpedHunter/GuiBlock]

Is there a rate my pokemon? if no then, my old meowscarada, might replace waterpon if it gets banned
Kitty Cat (Meowscarada) @ Leftovers
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Aura Sphere
- U-turn
- Giga Drain
- Dark Pulse

 

[Schpoonman]

do you think that ninetails is a good alternative for sun teams over torkoal?
it is true that it can neither set nor remove hazards, like torkoal but it can still lock the enemy set up pokemon with encore and use healing wish.

it can also deal more damage than torkoal thanks to the weather ball and the solarbeam.

edit: I forgot that torkoal also has weather ball, whatever, the solarbeam that does not need to charge is still a good move.

Torkoal has Rapid Spin, actually. Hard to justify Heat Rock if it's your hazard remover, though.

 

[galacticjeef]

Is there a rate my pokemon? if no then, my old meowscarada, might replace waterpon if it gets banned
Kitty Cat (Meowscarada) @ Leftovers
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Aura Sphere
- U-turn
- Giga Drain
- Dark Pulse

What is the benefit of special meow over physical?

 

[ianlazerbeem]

This is the datamined dex for DLC2.

Hide

View attachment 559218

Be interesting to see what of the returning mons will make an impact in the meta.

Why does the so-called "data mined dex" not have Pokémon we've seen confirmed in trailers such as new paradoxes, Archaludon, Terapagos, etc? Seems FAKE

Apparently, a new niche is good when its already part of the meta, but when its a mon rising up, its bad. Whats the difference between Pachirisu and Bronzong? Theyre both niche picks to counter what's meta, and shook things up in the process.
Anyways thats why i think the average smogon player just doesnt like change. I dont either tbh.

dude for the millionth time, high level players adapt and innovate all the time and stay on top by quickly learning and adapting to new trends. The problem with running Pokémon like Bronzong in OU is they are useless outside of one singular matchup and asking players to make their teams worse just to counter one centralizing Pokémon is not reasonable.

You people love misrepresenting the Pachirisu situation too, it literally had nothing to do with "countering what's meta", it was the follow me user with the most bulk + volt absorb making it the ideal partner to Gyarados in a limited dex format, which this particular VGC tournament was

 

[Bakugames]

Why does the so-called "data mined dex" not have Pokémon we've seen confirmed in trailers such as new paradoxes, Archaludon, Terapagos, etc? Seems FAKE

it is real, the data just have the new pokemon scrubbed beyond their internal species ids. it also has no pokemon that wouldnt have a dex entry

 

[SpedHunter/GuiBlock]

What is the benefit of special meow over physical?

Stronger dark pulse and giga drain, but I think I'll just put them like 1:1 ratio

 

[ianlazerbeem]

Stronger dark pulse and giga drain, but I think I'll just put them like 1:1 ratio

Even worse. Notice that on Smogon's dex there are no Special Meowscarada sets. Why do you think that is?

 

[Magcargo]

What is the benefit of special meow over physical?

In theory there are some benefits. Its Grass STAB hits common physical walls like Dozo and Tusk harder on the special side, it has a solid boosting move in Nasty Plot, it doesn't make contact, letting it avoid triggering Static and Flame Body, and it has some good special coverage moves like Power Gem which it can use to blast apart some of its regular switch-ins.

 

[RS25802580]

Is there a rate my pokemon? if no then, my old meowscarada, might replace waterpon if it gets banned
Kitty Cat (Meowscarada) @ Leftovers
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Aura Sphere
- U-turn
- Giga Drain
- Dark Pulse

Please tell me this is trollbait.

Anyway, I’ll bite. With the exception of certain lead sets (which may be antiquated anyway with DLC1), Meowscarada wants to be a physical attacker. Knock off, flower trick, low kick/taunt, u turn is the way to go. Take advantage of the cat's better physical stat and actual attacking moves.

Granted, it'll be hard to replace Watermelon since Meowscarada gets neither swords dance nor encore.

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

Please tell me this is trollbait.

Anyway, I’ll bite. With the exception of certain lead sets (which may be antiquated anyway with DLC1), Meowscarada wants to be a physical attacker. Knock off, flower trick, low kick/taunt, u turn is the way to go. Take advantage of the cat's better physical stat and actual attacking moves.

Granted, it'll be hard to replace Watermelon since Meowscarada gets neither swords dance nor encore.

Am I the only one who finds it weird it doesn't get Encore?

Like, it's a magician. Seems kinda obvious.

 

[Magcargo]

Thoughts on AV Slowking (Johto) right now? I’ve been laddering with Joeking and it’s been putting in some work (~1800 elo). Playing around with this set:

Slowking @ Assault Vest
252 HP / 136 Spa / 120 Spd
Careful Nature
- Future sight / Psychic
- Scald
- Flamethrower
- Ice beam

Joeking comes with a few useful perks over the more typical AV Glowking. A better Gliscor matchup thanks to no ground weakness and an easier time slotting ice beam. Scald punishes Gambit switchins more effectively than Glowking can. Defensively, a water typing helps against Wake. I don’t see a lot of Enamorus anymore, but it deals with the occasional CM tera ground much better than Glowking.

Of course, there’s also a share of drawbacks to using AV Joeking:
- Can’t absorb T Spikes
- No reliable way to hit greninja.
- Generally poor matchup against Waterpon.

Any thoughts welcome.

Yeah, I don't doubt Slowking is still a solid AV user. I still prefer Toxapex as my AV user of choice because the Toxic immunity is really nice + it handles Greninja nicely, but Slowking's better movepool and power likely make it the better choice for this role.

Also this isn't relevant to this meta, but it really sucks that Slowking lost Dragon Tail from last generation. That would have been a really awesome tool on this set to force out switch-ins like Kingambit, as well as phaze out threats like Manaphy.

 

[Carl_the_turtle]

Even worse. Notice that on Smogon's dex there are no Special Meowscarada sets. Why do you think that is?

...Isn't the first set max SpA + leaf storm? That doesn't make the previous special set good, but I'd argue it could be considered a Special Meow set.

 

[artificialdeath]

it is real, the data just have the new pokemon scrubbed beyond their internal species ids. it also has no pokemon that wouldnt have a dex entry

yea and these datamined lists were accurate for what would be returning in DLC1 afaik (at least the meta relevant mons i remember were all accurate, except we didnt know about manaphy/shaymin/darkrai being transferable and we dont know what mythicals are coming back in DLC2)

 

[Napoli Burns]

...Isn't the first set max SpA + leaf storm?

that set was used as suicide lead long time ago, maybe 2022 and it fell even before the coming of samurott

before home (like february-june 2023) meow was full physical, one of the only mons to be able to constantly deal with garg with flower trick even after tera water

on the smogon dex

NOTE: These analyses were written before Pokemon Home's update for Generation 9. As a result, some of the content may now be outdated as we adjust for the new metagame.

 

[SpedHunter/GuiBlock]

Why is nasty plot shiftry not viable for OU?

 

[Moyashi]

Why is nasty plot shiftry not viable for OU?

Because it's slow, massively frail and not really worth using over the countless better set up special based threats.

 

[viivian]

this and also shiftry is a physical attacker. shiftry is already bad for the reasons listed above but if youre going to use it then why run physical? its much better as a setter/abuser of some sort of tailwind strat with wind rider (which boosts its superior physical attack)

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Is there a rate my pokemon? if no then, my old meowscarada, might replace waterpon if it gets banned
Kitty Cat (Meowscarada) @ Leftovers
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Aura Sphere
- U-turn
- Giga Drain
- Dark Pulse

you seem eager to get into competitive, so i'm going to explain something to you, because no one likes to walk into a community, ask a question, and immediately be laughed at with no explanation of what they did wrong. judging from the things you're building, you seem to not quite understand the role that base stats play in what kinds of set a pokemon can feasibly run. i'd advise you to get a feel for the basics with a couple tutorial videos, our antiquated but still useful articles from the ancient days of gen 4, and the information & resources hub. that should give you more of an idea on why things like special meowscarada are not a good idea

 

[JuanchoTacorta]

this and also shiftry is a physical attacker. shiftry is already bad for the reasons listed above but if youre going to use it then why run physical? its much better as a setter/abuser of some sort of tailwind strat with wind rider (which boosts its superior physical attack)

Lies, Shiftry has historically been a mixed attacker since he gets fire coverage via Heat Wave and Weather Ball in Sun teams as a chlorophyll sweeper while retaining STAB Sucker Punch. Check Smogon Dex's for examples through all gens.

Still Shiftry sucks, Meowscarada is better as a Grass/Dark type, Hisuian-Lilligant and Scovillain are better sun abusers, and many mons have better use as wallbreakers.
Tailwind is not something used in singles at all and Wind Rider is still a bad meme set

 

[Ihatestall]

After tilting for 350 elo after blood moons demise, I’ve resorted to spamming goofy a ho with big gambit in the back

 

[Ihatestall]

Lies, Shiftry has historically been a mixed attacker since he gets fire coverage via Heat Wave and Weather Ball in Sun teams as a chlorophyll sweeper while retaining STAB Sucker Punch. Check Smogon Dex's for examples through all gens.

Still Shiftry sucks, Meowscarada is better as a Grass/Dark type, Hisuian-Lilligant and Scovillain are better sun abusers, and many mons have better use as wallbreakers.
Tailwind is not something used in singles at all and Wind Rider is still a bad meme set

Well there’s that meme suicide lead on grassy terrain set

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

So, now that we've cooled down with Bloodmoon's banning, it's probably worth looking at the other six candidates we established for suspect tests:

1. Kingambit
2. Iron Valiant
3. Gholdengo
4. Manaphy
5. Ogerpon-Wellspring
6. Gliscor

Working under the assumption that we have about 1-2 months until DLC2 drops, who do you guys think we should look at next?