Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[RS25802580]

I'm curious if the average forum poster or ladder player agrees with this, and I don't mean average as an insult. I consider the "average poster" to be someone who doesn't join every single Smogon tournament ever and invest as much time as the established tour players do, but they still care about the tier and the game.

As someone who fits the definition of an average poster, I think the way you put it is pretty well-reasoned and I'm not averse to the idea. Having top-ladder players represented on the council couldn't seem to hurt since they might bring a different skillset/perspective. That said, I've agreed with the vast majority of the council's decisions this gen, so I don't really feel like they're missing in expertise or judgment right now? Maybe that's just my perspective as I'm far from any kind of top player, but as someone who tends to float mid-high ladder (~1800), I've agreed with all of their actions so far and feel that they are pretty well functional as is.

i think expanding the council is actually not a good idea when tiering needs to be as swift and decisive as it'll have to be at the start of dlc2. generally, adding more people will add more opportunities for things to get delayed, especially around this time of year when everyone's busy with non-pokemon stuff too (finals, increased work hours, family, etc). but i can see where you're coming from and i agree that accepting at least one person with super-extensive ladder experience onto the council would be a good idea, just not right now. once things settle, this idea should absolutely be revisited, but things will be hectic enough without adding extra variables into the mix

I agree with this, probably not best to mess around with the current system in what will be a pretty pivotal time for the tier. Of course, more long-term I think it should be discussed.

 

[Lily]

I pushed to include a lot of stuff on this slate because I believe we should be thorough with what is presumably our final metagame for SV. For this reason I voted to unban almost everything, but here are my survey votes for posterity


3. I don't really think this guy is going to be balanced long term but there are a decent few more ways to beat it than there were before. Toxic and Scald came back in limited form, attackers got stronger than before and exploit Annihilape's only average bulk, defensive mons like Clef and Zapdos have better matchups against it than what we were using before, and the general offensive nature SV has taken on isn't super hospitable to its Bulk Up + Taunt shenanigans. I do think it's really hard for fat to deal with, but I'd like to see it in practice, especially since it barely got a shot before.


1. This thing is probably always going to be stupid and I don't think it's ever going to be okay unless Aurora Veil somehow gets banned, and even then it's still borderline.


5. Gliscor was a silly billy but it's hardly some unbeatable Uber monster. If it has to go later on then so be it but it should 100% be freed in this upcoming metagame.


5. I think there have been significant hits to what Landorus is capable of that make it more palatable. The addition of stuff like Ting-Lu (which famously gets bopped by +2 Focus Blast but can stomach Earth Power and be annoying), the Lati twins coming back, Ogerpon-W, Dragonite, Slowking etc all existing and being pretty okay defensive checks - on top of the fact that Lando just doesn't have some insane speed tier anymore, seriously look at the VR half the tier outspeeds it - makes me feel like it's worth giving this guy the shot he hasn't been given in 6+ years. I am not 100% sure it'll last but I think losing Knock Off and Rock Polish changes things enough alongside the general enormous power creep this generation has brought to make it worth saying Lando deserves a chance.


3. I think this thing's gonna be insanely dumb but I'm willing to be proven wrong, and I'm being liberal with most of my votes.


5. When Palafin first dropped, we were using - respectfully - dogshit teams featuring dogshit Pokemon that don't represent current SV OU at all. Stuff like Iron Treads in A rank and Toxapex being considered good come to mind. I firmly believe the metagame has become significantly more hostile to Palafin, between its need to switch (terrible in a hazard heavy metagame), really good fast Jet Punch resists that heavily threaten it (Ogerpon-W, Dragapult, Rillaboom, Walking Wake), underwhelming power bc stuff like +1 non-STAB Drain Punch still just isn't strong even off 160 Attack, defensive counterplay being more useable thanks to the additions of Scald and Toxic (Slowking actually consistently owns this now)... it also only lasted like, a week, we barely got to explore ways to play around it. CB may be a different story but we have no proof of that and I would like to see it in action. I'm not really sure where the idea that Palafin is this insane monster comes from - I think it will be more underwhelming than people realise.


4. Still pretty dumb to account for but I can't really see much reason to keep it in Ubers if we're freeing a ton of other stuff. Weavile getting better should help with dealing with this.


4. ^ minus the weavile bit


Lmfao never let this thing back into any tier


5. Actually doesn't seem nearly as broken as last gen's traumatised playerbase probably thinks it is. We have a lot of things in this metagame that didn't exist before and change the dynamic pretty significantly (Great Tusk, Iron Valiant, Enamorus, Tera Fairy, etc) and I find it pretty weird that it wasn't given a shot like Rapid Strike was, seems like it was entirely based on preconceived notions from last generation. Might still be silly but I don't think it's reasonable to say it 100% will be beyond a shadow of a doubt, it should be freed.


5. I thought I was gonna vote way lower but I want to be as liberal as possible. I don't expect this thing to last, its STAB combo is way better in a Tera meta since no single type resists both, but I'm okay with seeing how it goes.


5. I think this is largely uncontroversial and I don't really feel like explaining it but yeah it's not really that broken and idt the QB was ever supposed to be permanent


5. I'm interested to see how this acts as a side-grade to the regular dog since a lot of people were saying that one's more broken than this one is. Steel typing is kinda big but it also needs more support from stuff like Rillaboom since lacking Leftovers can really suck. Interested to see how it goes if nothing else.


5. It's just ass dude idk what to say. I used it in OUPL and tested a ton with it and it's just not broken at all, like yeah it's got great coverage and good offensive stats but when your only stab is Dark Pulse it gets real dire because you do fuckin 40 to Iron Moth and die and everything sucks just free him and let the playerbase be underwhelmed bc nobody is going to believe it's okay until they see how mid it actually is

 

[Return to Zero]

1
Anyone who thinks Rage Fist has gotten less powerful over time is insane. Anyone who thinks H-Zoroark actually counters this thing is more insane and has not been paying attention. Annihilape is not something that can be beaten by new strategies, because it and its counterplay are extremely linear. It's just a matter of whether the numbers of everything around Annihilape are high enough. I don't think they are.

2
Scale Shot and A-Ninetales Aurora Veil make this thing a dumb gamble of a sweeper with the deck stacked against you. I don't really see what unbanning this thing will do for the metagame other than jack up Clefable's usage rate in an attempt to deal with it. Remember that Baxcalibur was banned at the start of this meta, not launch or even HOME. It's going to have to work a lot harder to prove it can be balanced for Indigo Disk.

5
The by-far biggest reason Gliscor was banned was the fact that its counterplay basically didn't exist in the Teal Mask, at least not in a way that could be reliably used against it. Between the 19th Tera type and the addition of (going by DLC 1's numbers) at least 100 new mons, things are going to change so much that the environment that broke Gliscor likely won't exist anymore. Bonus if Gholdengo gets banned.

1
We have viable Sticky Webs and Lando has Nasty Plot. No.

1
And I'd vote Chi-Yu a 1 too, just so everyone's clear.

2
I guess I'd rather have this back then some other things here, but I still really wouldn't. Just because rain teams have fallen out of fashion for the moment doesn't mean that this thing can function just fine without them, or that it won't singlehandedly bring them back.

1-2?
I did this during some really bad sleep I woke up from and went right back to. It was one of those. Either way, no thanks. Similar to Gliscor, its counterplay just wasn't accessible in Teal Mask, but I can't imagine that Indigo Disk can suddenly bring in enough OU-caliber mons to make it justifiable.

1
Gholdengo's existence wasn't enough to make this thing bearable. What could be added that would make it so?


Come on.

/ 2
Similar to Palafin, but in retrospect I probably should have given them a 1.

4
Sue me. I think it'd be fine right about now. Besides, the quickban incident has been discussed enough. I think it's time Volcarona got an actual fair shake at being suspected.

3
I think it'd be fine for the tier and I would personally love to use it as a huge Zama fan, but I kinda worry that its inclusion would push out its Hero form. Dunno. I could honestly go either way.

1
This board has been locked down for days where many better and more articulate players than me have talked at length about why Darkrai would be too much for the tier.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

makes me feel like it's worth giving this guy the shot he hasn't been given in 6+ years.

he was given a shot last gen, wasn't he? i remember lando-i was one of the things that dropped in crown tundra, and he got banned within a matter of days because he was still insanely broken even among the insanely broken things. i've also seen lando-i match up against several of the potential checks you mentioned in uubers, and, well… those matchups go a lot worse for lando on paper

 

[Floatstonemafia]

The only correct answers to the survey are 1 and 2. 2 for 'no', 1 for 'heeeeeellllll nah'.

Format power is still too high. We need it to go down further than it is now, not up. Which we already know the DLC will do anyways. There is not a single justifiable reason to unban anything that was banned previously other than maybe gliscor. Every reason I've seen thus far boils down to either 'it's a new format we should give it a shot' which is a bad reason if you value format health at all, or 'it should be fine with new busted checks balancing it out', which is just broken checks broken dressed up nice.

All of the reason why every mon on that list was banned in the first place is still applicable. Rage Fist - the Mon is still horribly designed. Bax is still stupid with scale shot and the possibility of aurora veil support. Gliscor is still a monstrous hard to kill hazard setter unless you bring specific answers. Landorus still wastes anything in the tier slower than it. Ogerpon- H is still just wasting the whole tier. Palafin still has a priority 'you die now' button. Ursaluna-BM is still a bulk set up monster. Sneasler still is way too strong, especially with Rillabloom in the format. Darkrai is still absurd and this has been beaten to death. Zama-C was tested before, Iron Defense + Body press just handles too much of the tier, and the advantages it has over Zama-H (already really strong in OU) push it over the edge. Urshifus are still 'revenge kill or die'. Volcarona still straddles that line where either the tier is so powercrept it never gets to set up and is 'fine' (it's really not fine, but it's not the primary problem) and if that's not true it's too reliable to set up and sweeps everything. It should not return as long as tera's legal, because if Volcarona is fine with tera legal, then the format is borked and any reasonable attempt to fix that will just result in a re-ban down the road when the format is less borked.

Gliscor is the only thing I could see coming back, and even that's super meta-depedent. Gliscor was the main mon on that list that was the beneficiary of meta trends more than anything else, and if the anti-hazards team step up their game, I could see it. Everything else was largely banned on it's own merits. All of those merits are still applicable unless the DLC jacks up the power level so high that they stop standing out, in which case they still need to stay banned and DLC stuff needs to join them.

Reminder - this is likely the last metagame of this generation. Starting it off by opening the gates of hell is just going to create a format with such deep problems that it's still not fixed by the time the next gen starts up. And the biggest elephant in the room (Tera) still has not been addressed yet. If you unleash the Ubers-mons into OU, all that happens is that you avoid the question of tera until gen shift at which point it doesn't matter, because you're too busy trying to fix the tier from all the stuff that went wrong at tier shift.

November 2025 is likely the full release of the next gen. Means that the cut off for meaningful tier action is likely around July/September when people start to focus excusively on the new generation. Which leaves about 19 more months to handle the current meta. Suspect cycles usually last 1.5-2 months, with any tera test likely taking longer, so we have time for maybe 10-12 more suspects. Starting out aggressively keeping stuff ubers and using late stage suspects to test drops once the meta is in a good spot seems way more logical than having to use 5 of those tests just re-ban stuff that probably shouldn't have been unbanned in the first place trying to put out the dumpster fire.

 

[StarFalcon555]

I should really be sleeping rn but fuck it I have nothing better to do LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. keep in mind I did the survey like three hours ago and am only now writing up my opinions, so some of my opinions have changed slightly. can't change the past though xdd

I don't really see this thing being too balanced, Rage Fist is a nutty AF move and it has too many ways of playing around its counterplay.

Honestly I think I highballed this guy a bit too much. I was thinking the higher power level might be enough to keep him under check but on second thought maybe not. I wouldn't be opposed to seeing this guy back but I also wouldn't be mad if he stays gone

Gliscor is annoying as shit, yes, but of the mons on the slate, it's by far one of the weakest, and it was banned only recently. I think Gliscor has a shot of sticking around this time.

LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO no.

LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO no. (the squeakquel)

Lowballed this one for similar reasons as Annihilape, it just has too many ways of abusing its counterplay, particularly with the Bulk Up + Taunt set.

genuinely don't know how to feel about this guy, on the one hand it is a more recent ban and we could get some good stuff in indigo disk that makes him healthy again, but on the other, the combination of this guy and knock off is so powerful I feel it might invalidate any counterplay we get. could go either way honestly

similar reasoning to gliscor with the ban recency thing, and sneasler was around for much longer, so I think he has a shot of being balanced in a new meta.

I don't know why I made this guy a 2 this guy should have been a 1 easy LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO KEEP BRO OUT OF HERE

LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO no (oh baby a triple!) (I'm still scarred from swsh ioa ou)

honestly upon further reflection I feel I may have been too harsh to this guy, the power level will be increasing substantially in id and I feel like it might be enough to give this guy a home. like roaring moon, could go either way tbh.

I don't think I need to explain this one, the fluffy moth has been far overdue for his redemption arc, honestly should have been dropped down during teal mask but better late than never.

genuinely I don't get why people want this mon back this guy was CRACKED. zamazenta-hero is already like top 5 mons in the tier and this is just that mon on roids, no thankies!!!!

okay hear me out. I know darkrai would realistically be too much for the tier. however, you all should consider the following: it would be funny as fuck. an incredible bit. and I love the bit more than anything. give us a throwback to the genesect traditions of yonder and drop it down for like four days. it would be incredible LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

and finally, I'm dropping my list of other pokemon I would like to see unbanned, because I kinda popped off here.

why the fuck is espathra not on this slate????????????? you're telling me that you think lando-i and ogerpon-h might be alright for the tier but espathra isn't??????? lunacy. insanity even. I'm not 100% sure it'll be not broken enough without a Tera ban/restriction in play, but I also think that the power level has increased to a point that makes the psychic chicken deserving enough of a second chance.

chien-pao also deserves to be on the slate for similar reasons. for the record I don't think chien-pao would be healthy enough for the tier yet (if it was on the slate I would rank it a 2, I view it on the same level as stuff like annihilape, palafin, and zamazenta-crowned) but considering the power level of some of the stuff on the slate I think it should be given another chance. it got one after home, what's stopping it from getting one here?

the last three are more hypotheticals for the future. I'm operating with the assumption that after the initial unbans and rebans of the new meta, we'll get another look at tera. and if something does happen to tera, regieleki and spectrier are the mons that should be looked at most (alongside the obvious espathra if that's still in ubers by the time the next tera suspect wraps up). regieleki would defo be the more balanced of the two, especially considering we didn't know about the transistor nerf when it originally got banned, but regieleki and spectrier both do similar things and should probably be suspected down together. the shed tail thing was more of a meme thing like darkrai, but hey, you never know, the meta could suddenly take a hard defensive turn :P

and in case the link doesn't work for the council when they're reading the survey: have some choccy milk council. you all are epic. honestly reading some of the takes here makes me wonder how you all haven't needed therapy appointments. godspeed to you all.

now if you excuse me, I'm going to collapse in my bed and explode.

 

[artificialdeath]

I should really be sleeping rn but fuck it I have nothing better to do LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. keep in mind I did the survey like three hours ago and am only now writing up my opinions, so some of my opinions have changed slightly. can't change the past though xdd

View attachment 578085
I don't really see this thing being too balanced, Rage Fist is a nutty AF move and it has too many ways of playing around its counterplay.

View attachment 578086
Honestly I think I highballed this guy a bit too much. I was thinking the higher power level might be enough to keep him under check but on second thought maybe not. I wouldn't be opposed to seeing this guy back but I also wouldn't be mad if he stays gone

View attachment 578087
Gliscor is annoying as shit, yes, but of the mons on the slate, it's by far one of the weakest, and it was banned only recently. I think Gliscor has a shot of sticking around this time.

View attachment 578088
LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO no.

View attachment 578089
LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO no. (the squeakquel)

View attachment 578090
Lowballed this one for similar reasons as Annihilape, it just has too many ways of abusing its counterplay, particularly with the Bulk Up + Taunt set.

View attachment 578091
genuinely don't know how to feel about this guy, on the one hand it is a more recent ban and we could get some good stuff in indigo disk that makes him healthy again, but on the other, the combination of this guy and knock off is so powerful I feel it might invalidate any counterplay we get. could go either way honestly

View attachment 578092
similar reasoning to gliscor with the ban recency thing, and sneasler was around for much longer, so I think he has a shot of being balanced in a new meta.

View attachment 578093
I don't know why I made this guy a 2 this guy should have been a 1 easy LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO KEEP BRO OUT OF HERE

View attachment 578094
LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO no (oh baby a triple!) (I'm still scarred from swsh ioa ou)

View attachment 578095
honestly upon further reflection I feel I may have been too harsh to this guy, the power level will be increasing substantially in id and I feel like it might be enough to give this guy a home. like roaring moon, could go either way tbh.

View attachment 578096
I don't think I need to explain this one, the fluffy moth has been far overdue for his redemption arc, honestly should have been dropped down during teal mask but better late than never.

View attachment 578099
genuinely I don't get why people want this mon back this guy was CRACKED. zamazenta-hero is already like top 5 mons in the tier and this is just that mon on roids, no thankies!!!!

View attachment 578097
okay hear me out. I know darkrai would realistically be too much for the tier. however, you all should consider the following: it would be funny as fuck. an incredible bit. and I love the bit more than anything. give us a throwback to the genesect traditions of yonder and drop it down for like four days. it would be incredible LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

View attachment 578100
and finally, I'm dropping my list of other pokemon I would like to see unbanned, because I kinda popped off here.

why the fuck is espathra not on this slate????????????? you're telling me that you think lando-i and ogerpon-h might be alright for the tier but espathra isn't??????? lunacy. insanity even. I'm not 100% sure it'll be not broken enough without a Tera ban/restriction in play, but I also think that the power level has increased to a point that makes the psychic chicken deserving enough of a second chance.

chien-pao also deserves to be on the slate for similar reasons. for the record I don't think chien-pao would be healthy enough for the tier yet (if it was on the slate I would rank it a 2, I view it on the same level as stuff like annihilape, palafin, and zamazenta-crowned) but considering the power level of some of the stuff on the slate I think it should be given another chance. it got one after home, what's stopping it from getting one here?

the last three are more hypotheticals for the future. I'm operating with the assumption that after the initial unbans and rebans of the new meta, we'll get another look at tera. and if something does happen to tera, regieleki and spectrier are the mons that should be looked at most (alongside the obvious espathra if that's still in ubers by the time the next tera suspect wraps up). regieleki would defo be the more balanced of the two, especially considering we didn't know about the transistor nerf when it originally got banned, but regieleki and spectrier both do similar things and should probably be suspected down together. the shed tail thing was more of a meme thing like darkrai, but hey, you never know, the meta could suddenly take a hard defensive turn :P

View attachment 578107
and in case the link doesn't work for the council when they're reading the survey: have some choccy milk council. you all are epic. honestly reading some of the takes here makes me wonder how you all haven't needed therapy appointments. godspeed to you all.

now if you excuse me, I'm going to collapse in my bed and explode.

Chien-Pao is probably because the council doesn't have much faith in it after its performance earlier in the tier - I'm inclined to agree, as I hated fighting it again in early HOME, but I see your point. As for Espathra, it honestly straddles the line between being broken and uncompetitive; Speed Boost + CM + Stored Power is just stupid. It's possibly the dumbest wincon GF ever made. At least Volcarona has to choose between coverage moves and whether it wants to be bulkier or more offensive for its matchup fishing, Espa just sets up once it's able to and then clicks one of two buttons.

 

[Magcargo]

I should really be sleeping rn but fuck it I have nothing better to do LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. keep in mind I did the survey like three hours ago and am only now writing up my opinions, so some of my opinions have changed slightly. can't change the past though xdd

View attachment 578085
I don't really see this thing being too balanced, Rage Fist is a nutty AF move and it has too many ways of playing around its counterplay.

View attachment 578086
Honestly I think I highballed this guy a bit too much. I was thinking the higher power level might be enough to keep him under check but on second thought maybe not. I wouldn't be opposed to seeing this guy back but I also wouldn't be mad if he stays gone

View attachment 578087
Gliscor is annoying as shit, yes, but of the mons on the slate, it's by far one of the weakest, and it was banned only recently. I think Gliscor has a shot of sticking around this time.

View attachment 578088
LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO no.

View attachment 578089
LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO no. (the squeakquel)

View attachment 578090
Lowballed this one for similar reasons as Annihilape, it just has too many ways of abusing its counterplay, particularly with the Bulk Up + Taunt set.

View attachment 578091
genuinely don't know how to feel about this guy, on the one hand it is a more recent ban and we could get some good stuff in indigo disk that makes him healthy again, but on the other, the combination of this guy and knock off is so powerful I feel it might invalidate any counterplay we get. could go either way honestly

View attachment 578092
similar reasoning to gliscor with the ban recency thing, and sneasler was around for much longer, so I think he has a shot of being balanced in a new meta.

View attachment 578093
I don't know why I made this guy a 2 this guy should have been a 1 easy LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO KEEP BRO OUT OF HERE

View attachment 578094
LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO no (oh baby a triple!) (I'm still scarred from swsh ioa ou)

View attachment 578095
honestly upon further reflection I feel I may have been too harsh to this guy, the power level will be increasing substantially in id and I feel like it might be enough to give this guy a home. like roaring moon, could go either way tbh.

View attachment 578096
I don't think I need to explain this one, the fluffy moth has been far overdue for his redemption arc, honestly should have been dropped down during teal mask but better late than never.

View attachment 578099
genuinely I don't get why people want this mon back this guy was CRACKED. zamazenta-hero is already like top 5 mons in the tier and this is just that mon on roids, no thankies!!!!

View attachment 578097
okay hear me out. I know darkrai would realistically be too much for the tier. however, you all should consider the following: it would be funny as fuck. an incredible bit. and I love the bit more than anything. give us a throwback to the genesect traditions of yonder and drop it down for like four days. it would be incredible LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

View attachment 578100
and finally, I'm dropping my list of other pokemon I would like to see unbanned, because I kinda popped off here.

why the fuck is espathra not on this slate????????????? you're telling me that you think lando-i and ogerpon-h might be alright for the tier but espathra isn't??????? lunacy. insanity even. I'm not 100% sure it'll be not broken enough without a Tera ban/restriction in play, but I also think that the power level has increased to a point that makes the psychic chicken deserving enough of a second chance.

chien-pao also deserves to be on the slate for similar reasons. for the record I don't think chien-pao would be healthy enough for the tier yet (if it was on the slate I would rank it a 2, I view it on the same level as stuff like annihilape, palafin, and zamazenta-crowned) but considering the power level of some of the stuff on the slate I think it should be given another chance. it got one after home, what's stopping it from getting one here?

the last three are more hypotheticals for the future. I'm operating with the assumption that after the initial unbans and rebans of the new meta, we'll get another look at tera. and if something does happen to tera, regieleki and spectrier are the mons that should be looked at most (alongside the obvious espathra if that's still in ubers by the time the next tera suspect wraps up). regieleki would defo be the more balanced of the two, especially considering we didn't know about the transistor nerf when it originally got banned, but regieleki and spectrier both do similar things and should probably be suspected down together. the shed tail thing was more of a meme thing like darkrai, but hey, you never know, the meta could suddenly take a hard defensive turn :P

View attachment 578107
and in case the link doesn't work for the council when they're reading the survey: have some choccy milk council. you all are epic. honestly reading some of the takes here makes me wonder how you all haven't needed therapy appointments. godspeed to you all.

now if you excuse me, I'm going to collapse in my bed and explode.

Espathra shouldn't come down. IMO its ass in UUbers, but thats only because every team can afford to fit a competent roar user in Dialga / Arceus and an excellent encore user in Magearna. Unless Magearna and Dialga drop (which would be quite the tall order) it would be for the best that we never see the stupid emu ever again.

I do see some merit in retesting Chien-Pao, as Band was arguably managable. However, the SD Boots was just ridiculously broken due to its 180 Attack boosted priority + not being worn down by hazards. Probably best to leave that guy in Ubers.

Spectrier should never drop even if Tera is banned lol. If anything, I think it would be more broken in a no-Tera meta since Pokemon like G-King can't at least fake check it by turning into a Normal-type. Last generation, it was absurd with its extremely limited coverage. This generation, it got Draining Kiss, which makes it 10x broken. It certainly is more OP because of how Tera and Draining Kiss interact, but its base potential as a snowball is already insane due to its ridiculous speed and Special attack.

I am a Shed Tail enjoyer, but that move should stay in UUbers imo. OU is not ready for it again.

 

[RS25802580]

1: STAB rage fist is still broken. We are not returning to monke.

1: Absolute unit of a setup sweeper under Veil and Snow. Baxes over everything not named Dondozo. Keep this baxcalibanned.

5: Our favorite scorpion surely deserves another chance

1: Sheer force and nasty plot is one hell of a drug.

1: Still girlbossing too hard for OU.

3: Convicted of mass murder, libel, and insurrection by the UN, but hey, he's a cute little fella. Might be more manageable with Waterpon and Serperior?

2: I don't think goth mence adds much to the tier and I don't see much returning in DLC2 that'll make it easier to handle.

1

no

He’s like I have a pokemon who’s going to help you to climb these cliffs. Uh, imagine my surprise when instead of a pokemon, hm, in walks. In walks, on two legs, bipedal, bipedaly walks: a full-fledged mean girl bully, popstar. A cheerleader with a side ponytail and a fresh fucking mani. She walks up to me and I’m like: who is this adult woman? Like this entrepreneur? This like cheerleader? This popstar? Who is she? Where’s the pokemon? Is she behind the model? She just like walks up to us like she’s joining the conversation of adults. Like she’s an- this is just like an adult woman. Sneasler is her name. She’s standing there. She like crosses her arms. She like taps her foot. She looks me up and down. I’m like OK she’s judging me, like I get it: I’m ugly. I’m not you. I’m never gonna be you. I thought I was gonna get a helper pokemon. Like, but, this isn’t helping anything this is- actually you’re bullying me. She’s bullying me. Ok? At this point she’s bullying me. And they’re like she’s going to help you, just play the flute for her, so that she can like open her heart to you, right? So I play the flute. Y’all she fucking laughs at you. She laughed at me. Right? Like she laughs at us. Sneasler laughs at us, that’s not like a thing that pokemon do. Wyrdeer didn’t laugh at me. Ursaluna didn’t fucking laugh at me. This bitch. This B-I-T-C-H laughs at me. I didn’t know pokemon were capable of laughing at people but she laughed in my face. I have never been more humiliated in my life. Nothing can ever undo the- the like hit my pride took. The humiliation of that moment. You know I knew she was gonna hate it and she did. She did. She hated every minute of it. She laughed at me. She laughed at me like I’m a lowly little worm and it’s like: I know you’re prettier than me. She has more friends than me. She’s more successful than me. As if I even have any pride left for which to be chipped away at. They tell me to climb into her backpack. They tell me to climb into a basket so that she can carry me up the- up the walls. So now I’m in the backpack of a cheerleader and I paid sixty dollars for this game, I don’t deserve it. I don’t deserve to be humiliated like this. She’s like climbing up trees and shit like Edward Cullen. You can see my stupid little eyes on her back. She’s like “hang on tight, spider monkey” and I’m just like there for the ride I guess. And I- I don’t know why she’s doing any of it but it’s not for me. You know? It’s gotta be some kind of self-serving thing for her. I don’t trust her and yet I love her. I would follow her to the ends of the earth and yet I would love to slap the shit out of her. She’s just not what I expected from this game. At all.

1: Let's not let the oversized, rabid werebear who hits like a 5 ton monster truck back out of the cage again.

2: Both probably pushed over the top with Tera and swords dance but not as egregious as some of the others on this list.

5: A top candidate for an unban since Heatran constrains its tera options and Dirge is more popular now. Matchup moth might still be too much for OU but deserves another chance.

3: Shield doggo overdosed on iron supplements. I'm inclined to give it a shot but feel that it would be mainly pigeonholed into the cheesy ID sweeper set, which could be pushed over the top with Rillaboom support. Not too optimistic for our good boy.

3: I don't think this will be balanced but I've seen some good arguments back and forth. Might be funny to see it dropped just to check off the "we tested this" box when it gets quickbanned.

 

[Welcome to mars]

My PERSONAL opinions on the new survey, 5 means please free my fella 1 means keep him there, im sure you can guess anything in between

2 very fun to use and i wouldn’t be freaking out if it were unbanned, but lets be honest, this is not healthy for the meta since taunt forces boosts for rage fist when you just want to toxic stall or literally do anything else,

1 most pokemon that can’t outspeed it are completely wrecked by this thing, and who wouldn’t use landorus incarnate when its unbanned?
so it would be very overcentralising, which has been proved everytime it was let loose, nasty plot with life force is beyond diabolical

4 i could rate higher but from what we know, the dlc 2 meta will be even more hyper offensive so it could actually struggle, if its actually a normal meta though then i would vote like 3.5-3, controversial take i know But i am in support for an unbanning just to test the waters and see if its still bad for ou, if the meta somehow ends up more defensive then im not sure about freeing it

5 do i even need to explain this

5 gliscor did get spikes up easily with little good removal, but the metagame has been pretty boring without it and i feel it did more good than harm, i miss em

5 this ban was out of nowhere and made no sense, if the council weren’t sure the community was ready for w volcarona ban, it should have been suspected and i know the council has learned from this and been more open with the community, bring em back

1 palafin shouldn’t be up for debate, we all know its going to dominate with scarf or band again, i normally want to test the waters with potential broken mons, but this is too obviously overpowed, not just overbearing or overcentralizing, but overpowered

1 the brothers are already unhealthy in vgc, and they gave them swords dance to further demolish anything slower, rapid strike is a 1.5 but single strike is a hell no

5 i used to think they were flat out broken when they were first let loose, but now? It got nerfed despite being terrible and it can’t hold an item, so i think its not that bad, i’ll be sure to test it out soon

3 honestly this could go both ways, i want to it to be tested but what if it happens again? What if it proves to be broken again? Im not really sure, maybe unban, just maybe

3 im neutral to this, ive seen good unban arguments and good don’t unban agruments, perhaps unban for now

4 the meta will be changing, not not in ways moon will like, it won’t be unstoppable after a single boost, thats a guarantee, but we don’t other factors yet, maybe it could be broken for slightly different reasons but i doubt that

4 same point for roaring moon, won’t be unstoppable after a boost, but has a extremely slim chance of still being suspect worthy in a few months


if power creep proves to be VERY extreme, Maybe we as a community could try suspect testing magearna, if not, don’t even bother, im also not 100% on autobanning genesect, only because of potential power creep

 

[TheTraininator]

My PERSONAL opinions on the new survey, 1- means please free my fella 5- means keep him there, im sure you can guess anything in between

I dunno if you saw the survey in question, but the scale the survey uses runs the opposite way, with 5 being a high desire to UNban the Pokémon and 1 being a high desire to KEEP the Pokémon banned.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

My PERSONAL opinions on the new survey, 1- means please free my fella 5- means keep him there, im sure you can guess anything in between

View attachment 578138 4 very fun to use and i wouldn’t be freaking out if it were unbanned, but lets be honest, this is not healthy for the meta since taunt forces boosts for rage fist when you just want to toxic stall or literally do anything else,

View attachment 5781395 most pokemon that can’t outspeed it are completely wrecked by this thing, and who wouldn’t use landorus incarnate when its unbanned?
so it would be very overcentralising, which has been proved everytime it was let loose, nasty plot with life force is beyond diabolical

View attachment 578140 2 i could rate higher but from what we know, the dlc 2 meta will be even more hyper offensive so it could actually struggle, if its actually a normal meta though then i would vote like 2.5-3, controversial take i know But i am in support for an unbanning just to test the waters and see if its still bad for ou, if the meta somehow ends up more defensive then im not sure about freeing it

View attachment 5781415 do i even need to explain this

View attachment 5781431 gliscor did get spikes up easily with little good removal, but the metagame has been pretty boring without it and i feel it did more good than harm, i miss em

View attachment 5781441 this ban was out of nowhere and made no sense, if the council weren’t sure the community was ready for w volcarona ban, it should have been suspected and i know the council has learned from this and been more open with the community, bring em back

View attachment 5781455 palafin shouldn’t be up for debate, we all know its going to dominate with scarf or band again, i normally want to test the waters with potential broken mons, but this is too obviously overpowed, not just overbearing or overcentralizing, but overpowered

View attachment 5781465 the brothers are already unhealthy in vgc, and they gave them swords dance to further demolish anything slower, rapid strike is a 4.5, but single strike is a hell no

View attachment 5781501 i used to think they were flat out broken when they were first let loose, but now? It got nerfed despite being terrible and it can’t hold an item, so i think its not that bad, i’ll be sure to test it out soon

View attachment 5781513 honestly this could go both ways, i want to it to be tested but what if it happens again? What if it proves to be broken again? Im not really sure, maybe unban, just maybe

View attachment 5781523 im neutral to this, ive seen good unban arguments and good don’t unban agruments, perhaps unban for now

View attachment 578153 2 the meta will be changing, not not in ways moon will like, it won’t be unstoppable after a single boost, thats a guarantee, but we don’t other factors yet, maybe it could be broken for slightly different reasons but i doubt that

View attachment 5781542 same point for roaring moon, won’t be unstoppable after a boost, but has a extremely slim chance of still being suspect worthy in a few months


if power creep proves to be VERY extreme, Maybe we as a community could try suspect testing magearna, if not, don’t even bother, im also not 100% on autobanning genesect, only because of potential power creep

yeah i know i got it mixed up, thats why i put that there, so nobody gets confused

Fix your numbers, they're very misleading.

 

[Cuddly]

4. ^ minus the weavile bit

4 same point for roaring moon, won’t be unstoppable after a boost, but has a extremely slim chance of still being suspect worthy in a few months

I’m going to assume these posts either forgot about Dire Claw or think that Dire Claw will be banned itself for some reason. Honestly even without Dire Claw, Sneasler is a solid 3 to 2. Use Gunk Shot instead and you trade cheese potential for higher raw damage on the thing that outspeeds all but 2 Pokemon after Unburden (Barraskewda in Rain, and Regieleki with Scarf).

 

[Magcargo]

5. When Palafin first dropped, we were using - respectfully - dogshit teams featuring dogshit Pokemon that don't represent current SV OU at all. Stuff like Iron Treads in A rank and Toxapex being considered good come to mind. I firmly believe the metagame has become significantly more hostile to Palafin, between its need to switch (terrible in a hazard heavy metagame), really good fast Jet Punch resists that heavily threaten it (Ogerpon-W, Dragapult, Rillaboom, Walking Wake), underwhelming power bc stuff like +1 non-STAB Drain Punch still just isn't strong even off 160 Attack, defensive counterplay being more useable thanks to the additions of Scald and Toxic (Slowking actually consistently owns this now)... it also only lasted like, a week, we barely got to explore ways to play around it. CB may be a different story but we have no proof of that and I would like to see it in action. I'm not really sure where the idea that Palafin is this insane monster comes from - I think it will be more underwhelming than people realise.

I was originally going to write a post about how CB was still a broken set based on my experience playing UUbers, but deadass, I'm having an extremely hard time formulating a good reason as to why it would be more broken than Rillaboom, which is about as strong a breaker with Grassy Terrain boosted Glides and Wood Hammers.

Damage Calcs

252+ Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 376-444 (93 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 189-223 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew in Grassy Terrain: 408-480 (100.9 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew in Grassy Terrain: 189-223 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery

Rilla's 100 / 90 / 70 Bulk isn't much worse than Palafin's 100 / 97 / 87 bulk. The main difference is that Grass is significantly worse than Water as a type and Palafin can be further boosted by Rain Support. But.... I am not even sure Rain boosted Palafin is that unique compared to the likes of rain Boosted Baraskeweda, which can similarly break through a check like Ogerpon-W with a predicted CC. Palafin has some other options like Grass Knot for Dozo and Encore, but IDK if these will become mainstream, and think they won't be the reason it gets banned.

Maybe the community can help me out here. Why is CB Palafin more broken than CB Rillaboom?

 

[Moyashi]

I was originally going to write a post about how CB was still a broken set based on my experience playing UUbers, but deadass, I'm having an extremely hard time formulating a good reason as to why it would be more broken than Rillaboom, which is about as strong a breaker with Grassy Terrain boosted Glides and Wood Hammers.

Damage Calcs

252+ Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 376-444 (93 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 189-223 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew in Grassy Terrain: 408-480 (100.9 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew in Grassy Terrain: 189-223 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery

Rilla's 100 / 90 / 70 Bulk isn't much worse than Palafin's 100 / 97 / 87 bulk. The main difference is that Grass is significantly worse than Water as a type and Palafin can be further boosted by Rain Support. But.... I am not even sure Rain boosted Palafin is that unique compared to the likes of rain Boosted Baraskeweda, which can similarly break through a check like Ogerpon-W with a predicted CC. Palafin has some other options like Grass Knot for Dozo and Encore, but IDK if these will become mainstream, and think they won't be the reason it gets banned.

Maybe the community can help me out here. Why is CB Palafin more broken than CB Rillaboom?

CB wasn't broken. Taunt BU was. And Rilla has ashit offensive type and awful speed while palafin is a great type and has good speed for how strong it is.

 

[RS25802580]

I was originally going to write a post about how CB was still a broken set based on my experience playing UUbers, but deadass, I'm having an extremely hard time formulating a good reason as to why it would be more broken than Rillaboom, which is about as strong a breaker with Grassy Terrain boosted Glides and Wood Hammers.

Damage Calcs

252+ Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 376-444 (93 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 189-223 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew in Grassy Terrain: 408-480 (100.9 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew in Grassy Terrain: 189-223 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery

Rilla's 100 / 90 / 70 Bulk isn't much worse than Palafin's 100 / 97 / 87 bulk. The main difference is that Grass is significantly worse than Water as a type and Palafin can be further boosted by Rain Support. But.... I am not even sure Rain boosted Palafin is that unique compared to the likes of rain Boosted Baraskeweda, which can similarly break through a check like Ogerpon-W with a predicted CC. Palafin has some other options like Grass Knot for Dozo and Encore, but IDK if these will become mainstream, and think they won't be the reason it gets banned.

Maybe the community can help me out here. Why is CB Palafin more broken than CB Rillaboom?

You make a great point but I think you’ve hit the nail on the head, mono grass is a significantly worse typing than mono water offensively. Grass resists are available in abundance and mons like Dragonite, Moltres, and Corviknight have no problem walling Rillaboom thanks to their 4x resists. Other top mons like Zapdos, Defensive Ghold, and Gambit can also eat a hit from Rillaboom in a pinch, with bulky Gambit notably avoiding the 2HKO from a banded Wood Hammer.

While Palafin’s Wave Crash and Rillaboom’s Wood Hammer have similar damage output, Palafin outdamages Rillaboom in other meaningful ways. In terms of pivoting there’s a massive difference, Palafin gets STAB Flip Turn off its base 160 attack while Rillaboom has to make do with non-STAB U-Turn off its base 125. Palafin’s higher attack stat means it’s also hitting significantly harder with its coverage moves. For example:

252 Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 265-312 (88 - 103.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Waterpon is the most splashable water immunity in the tier but banded Palafin hits so hard with neutral coverage that you’re screwed if it connects.

I think base 160 attack is just on another level compared to everything in OU, and that means it’s also out damaging any other rain abuser. Some other fun calcs:

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Water Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rillaboom in Rain: 373-439 (109.3 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Water Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake in Rain: 186-219 (54.3 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (4x water resist)

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Water Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo in Rain: 225-265 (44.6 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (fattest water resist in OU)

Bulk up was the more problematic set at the time when Palafin was banned since things like Waterpon, Wake, and Rillaboom had not yet been released so there was a dearth of quality checks. I think the bulk up set would now be more manageable thanks to Waterpon, but Choice Band would still be ridiculously hard to check defensively.

 

[`ShadowTwo]

I don't understand how can anyone not want to try Darkrai in OU. If it turns out to be broken it doesn't matter, at worst it will disappear quickly, but at least we will have concretely tested it. Yes he might be OP, but maybe not. We can't know in advance whether he will be OP or not in this meta, so it's worth seeing.
Just the fact that there is a huge debate out there with so many divergent opinions (many 1 and 5) is an argument that justifies checking a little.

Unlike the other 600 BST Ubers usually left in this tier (Shaymin-S, Deoxys, Marshadow...), Darkrai has been nerfed, but never tested in OU.

 

[Heatranator]

I don't understand how can anyone not want to try Darkrai in OU. If it turns out to be broken it doesn't matter, at worst it will disappear quickly, but at least we will have concretely tested it. Yes he might be OP, but maybe not. We can't know in advance whether he will be OP or not in this meta, so it's worth seeing.
Just the fact that there is a huge debate out there with so many divergent opinions (many 1 and 5) is an argument that justifies checking a little.

Unlike the other 600 BST Ubers usually left in this tier (Shaymin-S, Deoxys, Marshadow...), Darkrai has been nerfed, but never tested in OU.

Thing is, there is going to be a lot of other broken mons running around. Although that mentality isn't bad, it should be applied when the metagame settles. Darkrai has only been OU once, in Gen 5 but was quickly banned due to sleep mechanics being ass to play against, so there isn't as much precedence for it's unbanning, unlike gliscor or even something crazy like Lando-I (which I think will be okay for OU in Gen 12, cause that shit is crazy). We should deal with the other mons first before we drop pokemon that are contentious. To note, I don't think that darkrai will be overpowered, but there is no point doing it in an already chaotic stage of the metagame. Unbanning lots of shit was what ultimately ruined Gen 8 in my eyes, even if in the end it was pretty balanced/good.

 

[apoteosis]

Regular Zama is so cheap rn it’s just so easy to slap it on some teams with Rilla and if you are worried about para just go for Tera electric, which isn’t as crazy as it seems, since there is not a single good special ground user rn.
I honestly think that Zama-C is worse than regular Zama, it’s slower and doesn’t have lefties.

 

[Floatstonemafia]

You're crazy.

Zama-C's significantly higher SpD and Def give it a lot more set up opportunities (mainly the SpD makes setting up on special attackers a lot less risky), and the largely improved typing in combination with tera makes it incredibly hard to handle. If there was a lot more stuff running around with focus miss/earth power, then it might have issues, but the fact that steel picks up a bunch of useful neutral/resists over fighting and only really adds a weakness to earthquake/CC that you're going to ignore once you set up anyways is big game.

It's also worth noting that it's speed tier is still monstrous even in Zama-C. It's not slower to the point of being reasonable. It's just dropping down to slighty less crazy but still crazy. And it gets rest which makes a lot of stuff be unable to chip it down.

 

[apoteosis]

You're crazy.

Zama-C's significantly higher SpD and Def give it a lot more set up opportunities (mainly the SpD makes setting up on special attackers a lot less risky), and the largely improved typing in combination with tera makes it incredibly hard to handle. If there was a lot more stuff running around with focus miss/earth power, then it might have issues, but the fact that steel picks up a bunch of useful neutral/resists over fighting and only really adds a weakness to earthquake/CC that you're going to ignore once you set up anyways is big game.

It's also worth noting that it's speed tier is still monstrous even in Zama-C. It's not slower to the point of being reasonable. It's just dropping down to slighty less crazy but still crazy. And it gets rest which makes a lot of stuff be unable to chip it down.

Steel is not as good rn unless you are Dengo.
Every competent team has some answer to Gambit and, by extension, Zama-C
It’s slower so you need to invest more in speed rather than bulk.
Hazard stack without lefties (or boots) means that Zama can’t switch in repeatedly.
Plus it’s weak to fire coverage, which means Moth preying on it.

 

[Wolf-X]

Thing is, there is going to be a lot of other broken mons running around. Although that mentality isn't bad, it should be applied when the metagame settles. Darkrai has only been OU once, in Gen 5 but was quickly banned due to sleep mechanics being ass to play against, so there isn't as much precedence for it's unbanning, unlike gliscor or even something crazy like Lando-I (which I think will be okay for OU in Gen 12, cause that shit is crazy). We should deal with the other mons first before we drop pokemon that are contentious. To note, I don't think that darkrai will be overpowered, but there is no point doing it in an already chaotic stage of the metagame. Unbanning lots of shit was what ultimately ruined Gen 8 in my eyes, even if in the end it was pretty balanced/good.

Totally disagree, the best way to figure everything out is to have the biggest meta change possible with the possibly balanced stuff in OU.

You cant just test X, while excluding W, Y and Z from the meta, maybe they could have contributed to X been balanced, but because you excluded them X is too unbearable and you might end up banning something that shouldnt have been banned.

 

[Floatstonemafia]

Gaining steel with the extra special builk means -

Iron Valiant and Enarmous no longer ohkos with any move (even cc on phys sets), down from moonblast ohkoing on specs/at +1.

Gholdengo no longer ohkos with make it rain at +2

Specs Dragapult and Specs Walking Wake no longer 2hkos with any move besides Flamethrower.

Now hard counters Kingambit in virtually all instances. Whereas base form can get blown up by tera blast tera flying/fairy kingambit at +2.

Better match up into double dance manaphy with the addition of stored power neutral.

Now reliably sets up on Glowbro when it's not risking taking 70% from a future sight

Getting STAB Behemoth Bash is also useful if you chose to run it. Ohkos Valiant mainly.

Getting steel is a big deal lol.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

You're crazy.

Zama-C's significantly higher SpD and Def give it a lot more set up opportunities (mainly the SpD makes setting up on special attackers a lot less risky), and the largely improved typing in combination with tera makes it incredibly hard to handle. If there was a lot more stuff running around with focus miss/earth power, then it might have issues, but the fact that steel picks up a bunch of useful neutral/resists over fighting and only really adds a weakness to earthquake/CC that you're going to ignore once you set up anyways is big game.

It's also worth noting that it's speed tier is still monstrous even in Zama-C. It's not slower to the point of being reasonable. It's just dropping down to slighty less crazy but still crazy. And it gets rest which makes a lot of stuff be unable to chip it down.

Honestly comparing Zamazenta-C to Solgaleo, Solgaleo kinda looks reasonable in comparison. Sure its a physical beatstick, but when that beatstick only has iron defense and flame charge as setup, and a shaky defensive typing like Zama-H in Steel/Psychic, I think Solgaleo might be a reasonable test here and may prove to be more reasonable than Zama-C, since Sogaleo isn't as bulky nor does it have nearly as good of a defensive typing as Zama-C, even with more setup options. As long as Solgaleo doesn't get meaningful buffs i'm all for testing it.

I do hope Zama-C can drop, but I doubt its happening unless tera gets nuked and even then it may be too much.

Solgaleo should have been an option on the survey though, because its really not that strong as far as Ubers go and is something that could be balanced. I even said unban Solgaleo in my survey response if I recall.

Also I gave Darkrai, Zama-C, Volc, and Gliscor 5 as they all feel like reasonable drops.

 

[arnimacarni]

2 - I doubt the environment has changed enough to unleash this monster again into OU, and if H-Zoro becomes viable it will just run Night Slash. Maybe worth trying out but probably not really.

1 - Same shit different day, Veil structures make it OP

5 - Never got behind its ban and I feel like it should become the #1 mon in OU.

2 - Probably the same as it was but I like a Grass-Fire type so maybe try it?

1 - This is by far my most hated mon, stupid design and broken by default.

3 - Probably will be the same as always but if things turn up a notch might be reasonable.

1 - lol

5 - lol

4 - It probably won't bring anything interesting to the tier, but I think it's time we try it out. Only because it is a fast offensive mon doesn't mean it won't be balanced.

3 - Still too much but I feel like a test is earned.

2 - The reduced speed stat doesn't make up for the fact that it has amazing defenses and it hits like a truck.

4 - Will do the same thing it did but might be more manageable.

1 - lol no

Let's have a test and shut everyone up.

Probably more reasonable but still broken, let's try it out tho.

JUST ONE DAY PLS PLS PLS

Playing Ubers UU I remembered how fun this mon is to play with and against. Very centralising but I like its flavour. Pls unban.