Hell yeah. More people who see that Walking Wake is broken is a good thing in my book. Yeah, all of those mons you listed have merit for potentially being on the radar.after going 35-3 on ladder (1700 area i think) im gonna give yall my shitlist and some mons i think are cool
- obviously is very absurd, scale shot being given to this mon was the opening of pandoras box; if you do not have something like air balloon dengo, levitate + tera steel gweezing, or a specific tera on X mon that the player is dangerously capable of predicting youre kinda done for. would like some action done on this in the next week or so but not right now bc dlc just came out, also may be potential for more counterplay exploration? idk
- this guy is like a mini zacian, and absurd as that sounds im like joking and not joking at the same time. the gen 8 intrepid sword clone ability this has and the strong ass tera ivy cudgel move and having some nice STAB and coverage makes this a nuisance, not fun to play around since itll most likely punch holes in your team unless you can find some offensive pressure to beat it, and do note this things kinda fat so its gonna be a struggle
- im still mad at this bc setsu whooped my ass with this on ladder but besides that this mons a freak man. tail glow + surf + dgleam + filler is very nutty and not hard to pilot and win with, other sets like take heart resttalk are p bad and imo is kinda a waste of the mon that manaphy can be. waiting until someone cooks rain with this tho but unfort veil is everywhere on the planet atm
- im a natdex main and have some bias when it comes to this mon but holy fuck please ban this. snow everywhere doesnt even hold this mon back since itll always be a clicker and find some way to mess with your team, and tera wont even save you bc you'll prob be 2hkoed by specs hydro steam and such. it getting knock and flip turn makes it even more obnoxious since gking can just chilly out with no consequence anymore which def makes this annoying. would prob look at it down the line as well
- not much opinion on this but i dont mind this item going, would be nice limiting the batshit HOs and their tools
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
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lugia becomes the first pokemon to reach 101% usage in a tier (it's definitely in the game trust me dont look it up)
I wonder how many people here remember that Defog clears Screens and that Corviknight exists... I just shut every AlolanTails down with Defog into Brave Bird and forced them to switch out.
anyway, played for a bout three hours as I was watching AEW Dynamite, I have work in the morning so I'll give quick thoughts before I go to bed.
Tried Baxcalibur first with G-Slowking pivot, it's pretty good but I often felt like I had to choose between getting the speed or power first. If you choose to Scale Shot (and assuming you're running Jolly) first, you lack power to kill things even with Loaded Dice. I lost one game because of a low roll and got 4 hits as opposed to 5 on Icicle Spear. But if I Swords Dance, then I'm not fast enough to revenge kill and no Ice Shard priority. Obviously when I managed to get both, it's a clean sweep but definitely didn't feel as broken as its been touted. Even with +1 252 Jolly, you're still slower than Booster Energy Valiant and Scarf Enamorus.
Okidogi is good, but not overwhelmingly so. Good Bulk with Drain Punch and Bulk Up, kind of feels like Annihilape Lite, but with a RNG chance to Toxic your opponent as opposed to getting a busted Signature move. Its a funny thing when you hit Gunk Shot and get that Toxic Poison.
Gliscor continues to do Gliscor things; being one of the few defensive mons to keep Toxic actually improves it's stock a lot. Won a few games with a timely toxic and got the fuck out of dodge with U-Turn when my opponent tried to setup sweep me.
And with that, I'm out.
anyway, played for a bout three hours as I was watching AEW Dynamite, I have work in the morning so I'll give quick thoughts before I go to bed.
Tried Baxcalibur first with G-Slowking pivot, it's pretty good but I often felt like I had to choose between getting the speed or power first. If you choose to Scale Shot (and assuming you're running Jolly) first, you lack power to kill things even with Loaded Dice. I lost one game because of a low roll and got 4 hits as opposed to 5 on Icicle Spear. But if I Swords Dance, then I'm not fast enough to revenge kill and no Ice Shard priority. Obviously when I managed to get both, it's a clean sweep but definitely didn't feel as broken as its been touted. Even with +1 252 Jolly, you're still slower than Booster Energy Valiant and Scarf Enamorus.
Okidogi is good, but not overwhelmingly so. Good Bulk with Drain Punch and Bulk Up, kind of feels like Annihilape Lite, but with a RNG chance to Toxic your opponent as opposed to getting a busted Signature move. Its a funny thing when you hit Gunk Shot and get that Toxic Poison.
Gliscor continues to do Gliscor things; being one of the few defensive mons to keep Toxic actually improves it's stock a lot. Won a few games with a timely toxic and got the fuck out of dodge with U-Turn when my opponent tried to setup sweep me.
And with that, I'm out.
this will work for approximately 20 minutes before everyone realizes that there's still a mon that blocks defog and empoleon gets competitive now
Some pre-release thoughts on Ogerpon from what I have seen so far. (I was typing this before it went live, soooooo....)
General Thoughts on Ogerpon
Stats: 80/120/84/60/96/110 (HP/Atk/Def/SpA/SpD/Spe)
BST: 550
(Funnily enough, this mon has 5 less BST than the three poison goons)
All forms share a Grass typing unless Terastalized.
This is definitely a mon with very defined strengths and weaknesses. While its offensive stats is not out-of-this-world (it is directly worse than Sneasler's 130 Atk + 120 Spe), it is very much serviceable. Its bulk is overall also decent for an offensive mon. It will not take super effective damage very well, but it can semi-reliability soak up neutral damage. It stat-spread overall is very solid but far from amazing.
All forms are coming with the Grass typing.
When it comes to offensive Grass typing, we only really have Meowscarada, Breloom, Rillaboom, and Brute Bonnet to its name, the latter two not being an OU caliber Pokemon in gen 9 (at least pre-DLC1 Boom is not OU caliber).
It has powerful offensive Grass moves in its disposal: between Ivy Cudgel (which serves as its secondary STAB in other forms), Wood Hammer (strongest Grass STAB), and Horn Leech. Power Whip also exists, but its low accuracy may make it an unattractive choice. Solar Blade can be used for Sun teams, especially with Heartflame form.
It has some good setup tools in Growth (especially good with Heartflame under Sun), Swords Dance, and Substitute.
It also has some good offensive coverage between Knock Off, Superpower, Low Kick, Play Rough, Zen Headbutt, and Stomping Tantrum.
It also possesses some good utility options in the form of (again) Knock Off, U-turn, Leech Seed, Spikes, Spiky Shield, Synthesis, and Taunt.
While all these options are all great, an immediate weakness I noticed is that without Tera and assuming a different form (a problem I go over in more detail in the Teal Mask section), Ogerpon doesn't really do anything significant that stands out in comparison to its offensive Grass type competition: Meow has the highest speed + secondary STAB + Protean; Breloom having the highest attack of the three + priority STAB Fighting move + access to Spore; Boom having higher overall power and physical bulk + Grassy Terrain + now having a decently strong priority grass move. Its speed tier is also pretty awkward, with base 110 being woefully slower than a lot of other prominent offensive mons, although it is faster than certain other fast offensive mons like Enamorus and Wake.
That being said, lets talk about its interaction with Tera which does make it stand out.
It allows access to its secondary ability in boosting a specific stat, and this gets reapplied whenever you switch out (likely done cause you need to Tera to access this, thus it has opportunity cost). It of course have the basic benefits of Tera; getting an adaptability boost on one of its typings. The boost being permanent and potentially strong under certain circumstances means that the mon Tera'd does have a potential lasting impact on the battlefield.
It does have some notable downsides: a unique one in that its Tera is set and doesn't have any option of mixing it up, and said set type is one of the ones it already has. This makes its Tera options the most linear out of any mon in the game, which limits how flexible the mon can be both offensively and especially defensively. The fact that this mon needs to Tera in order to access its strong abilities means that you are encouraged to not Tera your other mons in your team in order to enable said abilities for Ogerpon.
Now lets go over each of the individual forms.
1. Teal Mask
Held Item: None (Free item slot)
Type: Grass
Ability: Defiant / Embody Aspect 1 (+1 Speed)
This was a form that I was initially not too optimistic for when looking at it prior to more info coming out. If this form was stuck holding a mask item without the freedom to switch items, then this form would be very mediocre and close-to-no reason to use it over Meowscarada.
Fortunately, we live in a timeline where it does have freedom on which item it holds, which does change the game for it, although it still has some of the same growing pains I theorycrafted beforehand. The ability to hold any item means that Teal Mask can afford to run leftovers or HDB for more defensive sets revolving around Leech Seed + Horn Leech + Spikes. It also means that it can achieve a potentially nasty combo: Choice Band + Tera speed boost; or Swords Dance + Tera speed boost + other items like HDB. Grass STAB is very strong with this mon, possessing very high STABs in Wood Hammer, Power Whip, or Ivy Cudgel. It doesn't hit as hard as Boom does with Wood Hammer, but it is still very strong while also having a pretty good speed tier. Its offensive coverage, while not amazing, is still very solid between Superpower, Knock Off, Zen Headbutt, and Play Rough.
It also possesses a very fast U-turn, which is nice given that the Tera boost is +1 speed and doesn't go away upon switching, meaning that this can potentially have the fastest non-locked U-turn in the game. Hoopa-U in suicide watch as we speak.
Its base ability in Defiant is also very solid, allowing it option to punish Defog attempts from the opponent, although it cannot really threaten most users of Defog back. The note about not threatening Defog users does highlight a major issue with this form: it doesn't have a real way to threaten Flying types. All it has is Leech Seed and weak Rock Tomb to pose any threat to them (granted that Tomb is pretty good for particularly Moltres), and no secondary STAB to work with. Mons like Zapdos will be a massive problem to this form as a result.
In general, this is the form that suffers the most from not standing out in comparison to other offensive Grass type competition without using Tera on it.
For starters, mono Grass doesn't do this mon much of any favors. At least Rillaboom is stronger off the bat, more physically bulky, has Bulk Up in addition to also having Swords Dance, summons Grassy Terrain, and has access to a decently strong priority Grass move (not gen 8 level, but still solid). Oger does have a significant speed advantage, meaning that it is more immediately threatening to mons that outspeed Boom and isn't threatened by nerfed-Grassy Glide, so it does have that going for it. But still, without the immense team support Boom provides, possessing a mono-Grass typing with no real way to deal with Flying types becomes a massive problem, especially when not Tera'd. This also opens up Meow also being massive competition for it, thanks to its much higher speed tier, secondary STAB, Protean, also having Spikes + U-turn + Knock Off, and while it is weaker than Ogerpon, its attack is serviceable enough to threaten opposing mons.
A notable thing about this form is that even with how powerful the +1 speed boost + not being item restricted is, its Tera form also has a very notable issue: it is the form suffers the most from having no variety in its Tera type. It being permanently locked to mono-Grass for its entire existence does not do it much favors offensively or especially defensively. Setup sweepers in gen 9 loves to Tera off of their standard typing to get the jump on potential counters, or switch to a better defensive typing that facilitates the bulky role, but Ogerpon uniquely cannot do either, which further exacerbates it's Flying type problems.
One final thing to note is that the defensive sets has even more competition. As mentioned earlier, Boom is more physically bulky and has passive recovery with Grassy Terrain, plus can afford to run Bulk Up to make use of its higher physical bulk. This form could function as a fast lead slot option against opposing teams, but this one has harsh competition from Meowscarada, who is naturally faster without any need to Tera and has pretty much all of Ogerpon's support moves + STAB Knock Off. It also has harsh competition in the lead role from, funnily enough, Ogerpon's own Cornerstone form.
Summary:
This form has some potential mainly leaning to the +1 speed boost upon Tera and having a free item slot, potentially opening the door to some powerful combinations. However, this form possesses glaring flaws none of the other forms possess, mainly stemming from its problems threatening Flying types and its mono-Grass typing. It is also the form that stresses the usage of Tera the most in order for it to be not directly outclassed by other Grass type competition, which will limit its usage even further, and I am not sure if this mon is good enough even with Tera to work in a team that revolves around it being the sole Tera user.
2. Wellspring Mask
Held Item: Wellspring Mask
Type: Grass/Water
Ability: Water Absorb / Embody Aspect 2 (+1 Special Defense)
Probably the form I have the biggest question marks about, but this one seems interesting. Grass/Water is a rare typing notably seen with Ludicolo, and provides some pretty good defensive profiles. While +1 SpD on Tera isn't anything noteworthy, it is the form that suffers the least from the linear Tera typing, as mono-Water is a popular and pretty good Tera type to become anyways.
Its base ability being Water Absorb is a very funny move by GameFreak considering that the mon already quad resists the type, but at least it means that it is not getting Scald burned anytime soon pre-Tera. It is a nice mon in that while it definitely benefits at times from being a mono-Water type defensively, but it isn't in any dire need to Tera this mon since its defensive typing is solid as it is. It also possesses some defensive traits to go alongside its defensive typing, between Horn Leech + Synthesis + Leech Seed for lots of recovery on its part, although having no item slot for Leftovers or Boots means that it is very liable in getting worn down. Its bulk is decent, but not out of this world good, so this form is very solid, albeit flawed defensively.
Summary:
Not really much else to say for this form: it is definitely the most well-rounded of the Ogerpon forms, not having the polarizing highs and lows of Teal and Heartflame. It is a mon worth considering if your team desperately needs an answer for a rain team, cause this mon kinda memes on them once Tera'd. Don't know if this equates to actual OU usage (I personally doubt it), but I can see a niche here. This form could also be potentially used in Ubers to meme on Kyogre as well.
3. Heartflame Mask
Held Item: Heartflame Mask
Type: Grass/Fire
Ability: Mold Breaker / Embody Aspect 3 (+1 Attack)
Prior to the launch of this thread and the arguments brought up, this was the most exciting one for me. Grass/Fire is a brand new type combination introduced in this gen with Scovillian, and similar to the aforementioned mon and fellow offensive Grass type Brute Bonnett, this mon will definitely hit its stride in Sun teams. It also has some defensive synergy with some other prevalent offensive mons.
Mold Breaker is a pretty good ability for an offensive mon, meaning that the mon's Fire STAB (Ivy Cudgel) will hit past Flash Fire and its moves in general will hit past Unaware. Once you put this mon under Sun and Tera it, then things become exciting: the +1 attack boost helps mitigate the lack of a boosting item, and its Fire STAB becomes nuclear when boosted by Sun, by adaptability-esque STAB Tera Fire, and by +1 attack. While not a Chlorophyll or Protosynthesis boosted mon like Venusaur and Brute Bonnet before it, it is still very fast given the other Sun abusers without this ability (or not Proto speed boosted). This is a very damaging new addition to Sun teams.
That being said, this mon does have very glaring flaws: it is easily the form that suffers the most by not having an item. While it is fast and have set-up for days, base 120 attack with zero items does feel weak without the Tera +1 attack boost and/or Sun support. The Sun support thing is, of course, not too bad considering that Walking Wake Sun cores will remain a prevalent team style, but it is currently unknown how well this mon will fit in said already established cores in the long run. Either way, being mostly restricted to Sun teams and being a Tera hog on your team will inherently limit its usage. That being said, this mon being a Tera hog isn't as bad of a problem as with Teal form, as having gen 8 Intrepid Sword upon Tera'ing can never be a bad thing to do, but it is something noteworthy, especially since......
......the main glaring flaw of this form is that is the mon most weak to hazards in the generation. Because it cannot hold an item and that it will be a Fire type no matter if it is Tera'd or not, it means that it is exceptionably very weak to Stealth Rock with zero way to mitigate this, meaning that it will require more team support than most mons in the game. You cannot afford to slap HDB to fix this mon's Stealth Rock weakness cause... it can't. This isn't an insurmountable condition to fill by any means, but it is again another strain in the builder.
Summary:
It is funny Sun sweeper #12, although it does have a lot of merit in comparison to most of its competition, especially having gen 8 Intrepid Sword as its ability upon using Tera. Being mainly reliant on Tera and/or Sun will overall limit its usage in the long run, and its lack of holdable items while being Stealth Rock weak regardless of Tera will mean that it will require more team support than the average Sun sweeper. A Heartflame put in the ideal position is indeed strong if achieved. I feel that this form has potential to be an OU caliber threat, but I feel that this is very meta dependent and dependent how much its glaring flaws will end up holding it back in the long run.
4. Cornerstone Mask
Held Item: Cornerstone Mask
Type: Grass/Rock
Ability: Sturdy / Embody Aspect 4 (+1 Defense)
Teal Mask Ogerpons got tired of seeing Flying types, so it instead dons the Cornerstone Mask to meme on them. This is the first time we have an offensive mon with the Cradily type combo, and it has some interesting results. The typing has merit and also some harsh pains defensively, having solid resists of Normal and Electric, but also notably being weak Steel, Fighting, Ice, and U-turn. Between that and no items, it is a very mixed bag in terms of defensive and offensive utility for a team. Being a Grass type that is fast, self-recovery, and doesn't fear Flying types are all very nice traits, but it cannot take much hits at all in turn, and the type combo not resisting much of the metagame can come back to wear it down further as a result.
This mon's relationship with its Tera ability is funny, cause I actually like the mon better with no Tera. It is because for the role I think it fits it best benefits better with Sturdy (which is explained in the paragraph below), but also +1 Defense boost (gen 8 Dauntless Shield) and the change to mono-Rock are both...... not great. Not worth using this mons Tera over someone better in your team except for the most niche of situations. I have seen someone in the thread mention Tera'ing the mon in the Sand for the funny +1 Defense + Rock type SpD boost. It is fire tech, but obviously nothing worth using seriously, especially since Sand is easily the worst weather in gen 9 rn. If you want funny stuff with mono-Rock Sandstorm, then you would use Garg instead.
Where I think this mon will shine is the lead role: it is a fast mon with Spikes, Encore, Taunt, Leech Seed, and Knock Off. With Sturdy, it is ensured that the mon will always live one hit from the opposing lead role. Rock typing also ensures that it eats Stealth Rocks on switch-in, although again the lack of item does limit how often it can come in. Main threat to this would be lead Meow carrying Taunt, but otherwise there isn't much stopping this mon from doing something in the lead.
In that regard, I actually do think this mon has a niche in the lead role that can potentially go side-by-side with Meow for the lead role that can threaten Flying types with potent Rock STAB (that doesn't miss all the time yippee!), more bulk to work with, and more access to recovery. To compensate, the mon does have lower speed than Meow, no STAB on Knock Off, no Protean, and no held item to work with.
Summary:
Unironically the best chance Ogerpon has to be a legitimate OU mon imo: this form can function as a solid lead mon that has different role from lead Meowscarada; namely its ability to threaten prevalent Flying types with Rock STAB. It of course has its downsides, mainly stemming from its typing and lack of a held item, and said traits also makes it not very good for being a general all-purpose offensive mon outside of the lead position. Probably the Ogerpon mon that benefits the least from its Tera gimmick, but at least that means you can afford to Tera other mons in the team more easily.
Overall summary:
Each form of Ogerpon seems to possess a well defined niche; Grass form for being a Tera sweeper, Fire form for being a Tera and/or Sun sweeper, Water form for laughing at Rain teams alongside a solid defensive typing, and Rock form for being a well-defined lead mon that separates from Meow. Each does have their very defined weaknesses though, mainly stemming from its stats being only good (not amazing), the Grass form being very Tera reliant to not be hilariously outclassed, the Fire form also being a massive Tera hog with a Stealth Rock weakness, all the Mask forms having no item to work with, and all of them having zero flexibility with Tera types. Rock form has the greatest chance of being legitimately OU, and maybe Fire depending on how the meta shapes up, but all of them seem to be lower tiered threats. That being said, each of them has very real potential to at least have a usable niche in the OU tier, with Water form potentially even having the slightest niche in Ubers, which is all very cool to see.
This mon is a nice change of pace. Last time we had a DLC legendary Pokemon with a low 550 BST, it was able to punch through Protect + Bulk Up + Swords Dance + CC + auto-crit secondary STAB.
General Thoughts on Ogerpon
Stats: 80/120/84/60/96/110 (HP/Atk/Def/SpA/SpD/Spe)
BST: 550
(Funnily enough, this mon has 5 less BST than the three poison goons)
All forms share a Grass typing unless Terastalized.
This is definitely a mon with very defined strengths and weaknesses. While its offensive stats is not out-of-this-world (it is directly worse than Sneasler's 130 Atk + 120 Spe), it is very much serviceable. Its bulk is overall also decent for an offensive mon. It will not take super effective damage very well, but it can semi-reliability soak up neutral damage. It stat-spread overall is very solid but far from amazing.
All forms are coming with the Grass typing.
When it comes to offensive Grass typing, we only really have Meowscarada, Breloom, Rillaboom, and Brute Bonnet to its name, the latter two not being an OU caliber Pokemon in gen 9 (at least pre-DLC1 Boom is not OU caliber).
It has powerful offensive Grass moves in its disposal: between Ivy Cudgel (which serves as its secondary STAB in other forms), Wood Hammer (strongest Grass STAB), and Horn Leech. Power Whip also exists, but its low accuracy may make it an unattractive choice. Solar Blade can be used for Sun teams, especially with Heartflame form.
It has some good setup tools in Growth (especially good with Heartflame under Sun), Swords Dance, and Substitute.
It also has some good offensive coverage between Knock Off, Superpower, Low Kick, Play Rough, Zen Headbutt, and Stomping Tantrum.
It also possesses some good utility options in the form of (again) Knock Off, U-turn, Leech Seed, Spikes, Spiky Shield, Synthesis, and Taunt.
While all these options are all great, an immediate weakness I noticed is that without Tera and assuming a different form (a problem I go over in more detail in the Teal Mask section), Ogerpon doesn't really do anything significant that stands out in comparison to its offensive Grass type competition: Meow has the highest speed + secondary STAB + Protean; Breloom having the highest attack of the three + priority STAB Fighting move + access to Spore; Boom having higher overall power and physical bulk + Grassy Terrain + now having a decently strong priority grass move. Its speed tier is also pretty awkward, with base 110 being woefully slower than a lot of other prominent offensive mons, although it is faster than certain other fast offensive mons like Enamorus and Wake.
That being said, lets talk about its interaction with Tera which does make it stand out.
It allows access to its secondary ability in boosting a specific stat, and this gets reapplied whenever you switch out (likely done cause you need to Tera to access this, thus it has opportunity cost). It of course have the basic benefits of Tera; getting an adaptability boost on one of its typings. The boost being permanent and potentially strong under certain circumstances means that the mon Tera'd does have a potential lasting impact on the battlefield.
It does have some notable downsides: a unique one in that its Tera is set and doesn't have any option of mixing it up, and said set type is one of the ones it already has. This makes its Tera options the most linear out of any mon in the game, which limits how flexible the mon can be both offensively and especially defensively. The fact that this mon needs to Tera in order to access its strong abilities means that you are encouraged to not Tera your other mons in your team in order to enable said abilities for Ogerpon.
Now lets go over each of the individual forms.
1. Teal Mask
Held Item: None (Free item slot)
Type: Grass
Ability: Defiant / Embody Aspect 1 (+1 Speed)
This was a form that I was initially not too optimistic for when looking at it prior to more info coming out. If this form was stuck holding a mask item without the freedom to switch items, then this form would be very mediocre and close-to-no reason to use it over Meowscarada.
Fortunately, we live in a timeline where it does have freedom on which item it holds, which does change the game for it, although it still has some of the same growing pains I theorycrafted beforehand. The ability to hold any item means that Teal Mask can afford to run leftovers or HDB for more defensive sets revolving around Leech Seed + Horn Leech + Spikes. It also means that it can achieve a potentially nasty combo: Choice Band + Tera speed boost; or Swords Dance + Tera speed boost + other items like HDB. Grass STAB is very strong with this mon, possessing very high STABs in Wood Hammer, Power Whip, or Ivy Cudgel. It doesn't hit as hard as Boom does with Wood Hammer, but it is still very strong while also having a pretty good speed tier. Its offensive coverage, while not amazing, is still very solid between Superpower, Knock Off, Zen Headbutt, and Play Rough.
It also possesses a very fast U-turn, which is nice given that the Tera boost is +1 speed and doesn't go away upon switching, meaning that this can potentially have the fastest non-locked U-turn in the game. Hoopa-U in suicide watch as we speak.
Its base ability in Defiant is also very solid, allowing it option to punish Defog attempts from the opponent, although it cannot really threaten most users of Defog back. The note about not threatening Defog users does highlight a major issue with this form: it doesn't have a real way to threaten Flying types. All it has is Leech Seed and weak Rock Tomb to pose any threat to them (granted that Tomb is pretty good for particularly Moltres), and no secondary STAB to work with. Mons like Zapdos will be a massive problem to this form as a result.
In general, this is the form that suffers the most from not standing out in comparison to other offensive Grass type competition without using Tera on it.
For starters, mono Grass doesn't do this mon much of any favors. At least Rillaboom is stronger off the bat, more physically bulky, has Bulk Up in addition to also having Swords Dance, summons Grassy Terrain, and has access to a decently strong priority Grass move (not gen 8 level, but still solid). Oger does have a significant speed advantage, meaning that it is more immediately threatening to mons that outspeed Boom and isn't threatened by nerfed-Grassy Glide, so it does have that going for it. But still, without the immense team support Boom provides, possessing a mono-Grass typing with no real way to deal with Flying types becomes a massive problem, especially when not Tera'd. This also opens up Meow also being massive competition for it, thanks to its much higher speed tier, secondary STAB, Protean, also having Spikes + U-turn + Knock Off, and while it is weaker than Ogerpon, its attack is serviceable enough to threaten opposing mons.
A notable thing about this form is that even with how powerful the +1 speed boost + not being item restricted is, its Tera form also has a very notable issue: it is the form suffers the most from having no variety in its Tera type. It being permanently locked to mono-Grass for its entire existence does not do it much favors offensively or especially defensively. Setup sweepers in gen 9 loves to Tera off of their standard typing to get the jump on potential counters, or switch to a better defensive typing that facilitates the bulky role, but Ogerpon uniquely cannot do either, which further exacerbates it's Flying type problems.
One final thing to note is that the defensive sets has even more competition. As mentioned earlier, Boom is more physically bulky and has passive recovery with Grassy Terrain, plus can afford to run Bulk Up to make use of its higher physical bulk. This form could function as a fast lead slot option against opposing teams, but this one has harsh competition from Meowscarada, who is naturally faster without any need to Tera and has pretty much all of Ogerpon's support moves + STAB Knock Off. It also has harsh competition in the lead role from, funnily enough, Ogerpon's own Cornerstone form.
Summary:
This form has some potential mainly leaning to the +1 speed boost upon Tera and having a free item slot, potentially opening the door to some powerful combinations. However, this form possesses glaring flaws none of the other forms possess, mainly stemming from its problems threatening Flying types and its mono-Grass typing. It is also the form that stresses the usage of Tera the most in order for it to be not directly outclassed by other Grass type competition, which will limit its usage even further, and I am not sure if this mon is good enough even with Tera to work in a team that revolves around it being the sole Tera user.
2. Wellspring Mask
Held Item: Wellspring Mask
Type: Grass/Water
Ability: Water Absorb / Embody Aspect 2 (+1 Special Defense)
Probably the form I have the biggest question marks about, but this one seems interesting. Grass/Water is a rare typing notably seen with Ludicolo, and provides some pretty good defensive profiles. While +1 SpD on Tera isn't anything noteworthy, it is the form that suffers the least from the linear Tera typing, as mono-Water is a popular and pretty good Tera type to become anyways.
Its base ability being Water Absorb is a very funny move by GameFreak considering that the mon already quad resists the type, but at least it means that it is not getting Scald burned anytime soon pre-Tera. It is a nice mon in that while it definitely benefits at times from being a mono-Water type defensively, but it isn't in any dire need to Tera this mon since its defensive typing is solid as it is. It also possesses some defensive traits to go alongside its defensive typing, between Horn Leech + Synthesis + Leech Seed for lots of recovery on its part, although having no item slot for Leftovers or Boots means that it is very liable in getting worn down. Its bulk is decent, but not out of this world good, so this form is very solid, albeit flawed defensively.
Summary:
Not really much else to say for this form: it is definitely the most well-rounded of the Ogerpon forms, not having the polarizing highs and lows of Teal and Heartflame. It is a mon worth considering if your team desperately needs an answer for a rain team, cause this mon kinda memes on them once Tera'd. Don't know if this equates to actual OU usage (I personally doubt it), but I can see a niche here. This form could also be potentially used in Ubers to meme on Kyogre as well.
3. Heartflame Mask
Held Item: Heartflame Mask
Type: Grass/Fire
Ability: Mold Breaker / Embody Aspect 3 (+1 Attack)
Prior to the launch of this thread and the arguments brought up, this was the most exciting one for me. Grass/Fire is a brand new type combination introduced in this gen with Scovillian, and similar to the aforementioned mon and fellow offensive Grass type Brute Bonnett, this mon will definitely hit its stride in Sun teams. It also has some defensive synergy with some other prevalent offensive mons.
Mold Breaker is a pretty good ability for an offensive mon, meaning that the mon's Fire STAB (Ivy Cudgel) will hit past Flash Fire and its moves in general will hit past Unaware. Once you put this mon under Sun and Tera it, then things become exciting: the +1 attack boost helps mitigate the lack of a boosting item, and its Fire STAB becomes nuclear when boosted by Sun, by adaptability-esque STAB Tera Fire, and by +1 attack. While not a Chlorophyll or Protosynthesis boosted mon like Venusaur and Brute Bonnet before it, it is still very fast given the other Sun abusers without this ability (or not Proto speed boosted). This is a very damaging new addition to Sun teams.
That being said, this mon does have very glaring flaws: it is easily the form that suffers the most by not having an item. While it is fast and have set-up for days, base 120 attack with zero items does feel weak without the Tera +1 attack boost and/or Sun support. The Sun support thing is, of course, not too bad considering that Walking Wake Sun cores will remain a prevalent team style, but it is currently unknown how well this mon will fit in said already established cores in the long run. Either way, being mostly restricted to Sun teams and being a Tera hog on your team will inherently limit its usage. That being said, this mon being a Tera hog isn't as bad of a problem as with Teal form, as having gen 8 Intrepid Sword upon Tera'ing can never be a bad thing to do, but it is something noteworthy, especially since......
......the main glaring flaw of this form is that is the mon most weak to hazards in the generation. Because it cannot hold an item and that it will be a Fire type no matter if it is Tera'd or not, it means that it is exceptionably very weak to Stealth Rock with zero way to mitigate this, meaning that it will require more team support than most mons in the game. You cannot afford to slap HDB to fix this mon's Stealth Rock weakness cause... it can't. This isn't an insurmountable condition to fill by any means, but it is again another strain in the builder.
Summary:
It is funny Sun sweeper #12, although it does have a lot of merit in comparison to most of its competition, especially having gen 8 Intrepid Sword as its ability upon using Tera. Being mainly reliant on Tera and/or Sun will overall limit its usage in the long run, and its lack of holdable items while being Stealth Rock weak regardless of Tera will mean that it will require more team support than the average Sun sweeper. A Heartflame put in the ideal position is indeed strong if achieved. I feel that this form has potential to be an OU caliber threat, but I feel that this is very meta dependent and dependent how much its glaring flaws will end up holding it back in the long run.
4. Cornerstone Mask
Held Item: Cornerstone Mask
Type: Grass/Rock
Ability: Sturdy / Embody Aspect 4 (+1 Defense)
Teal Mask Ogerpons got tired of seeing Flying types, so it instead dons the Cornerstone Mask to meme on them. This is the first time we have an offensive mon with the Cradily type combo, and it has some interesting results. The typing has merit and also some harsh pains defensively, having solid resists of Normal and Electric, but also notably being weak Steel, Fighting, Ice, and U-turn. Between that and no items, it is a very mixed bag in terms of defensive and offensive utility for a team. Being a Grass type that is fast, self-recovery, and doesn't fear Flying types are all very nice traits, but it cannot take much hits at all in turn, and the type combo not resisting much of the metagame can come back to wear it down further as a result.
This mon's relationship with its Tera ability is funny, cause I actually like the mon better with no Tera. It is because for the role I think it fits it best benefits better with Sturdy (which is explained in the paragraph below), but also +1 Defense boost (gen 8 Dauntless Shield) and the change to mono-Rock are both...... not great. Not worth using this mons Tera over someone better in your team except for the most niche of situations. I have seen someone in the thread mention Tera'ing the mon in the Sand for the funny +1 Defense + Rock type SpD boost. It is fire tech, but obviously nothing worth using seriously, especially since Sand is easily the worst weather in gen 9 rn. If you want funny stuff with mono-Rock Sandstorm, then you would use Garg instead.
Where I think this mon will shine is the lead role: it is a fast mon with Spikes, Encore, Taunt, Leech Seed, and Knock Off. With Sturdy, it is ensured that the mon will always live one hit from the opposing lead role. Rock typing also ensures that it eats Stealth Rocks on switch-in, although again the lack of item does limit how often it can come in. Main threat to this would be lead Meow carrying Taunt, but otherwise there isn't much stopping this mon from doing something in the lead.
In that regard, I actually do think this mon has a niche in the lead role that can potentially go side-by-side with Meow for the lead role that can threaten Flying types with potent Rock STAB (that doesn't miss all the time yippee!), more bulk to work with, and more access to recovery. To compensate, the mon does have lower speed than Meow, no STAB on Knock Off, no Protean, and no held item to work with.
Summary:
Unironically the best chance Ogerpon has to be a legitimate OU mon imo: this form can function as a solid lead mon that has different role from lead Meowscarada; namely its ability to threaten prevalent Flying types with Rock STAB. It of course has its downsides, mainly stemming from its typing and lack of a held item, and said traits also makes it not very good for being a general all-purpose offensive mon outside of the lead position. Probably the Ogerpon mon that benefits the least from its Tera gimmick, but at least that means you can afford to Tera other mons in the team more easily.
Overall summary:
Each form of Ogerpon seems to possess a well defined niche; Grass form for being a Tera sweeper, Fire form for being a Tera and/or Sun sweeper, Water form for laughing at Rain teams alongside a solid defensive typing, and Rock form for being a well-defined lead mon that separates from Meow. Each does have their very defined weaknesses though, mainly stemming from its stats being only good (not amazing), the Grass form being very Tera reliant to not be hilariously outclassed, the Fire form also being a massive Tera hog with a Stealth Rock weakness, all the Mask forms having no item to work with, and all of them having zero flexibility with Tera types. Rock form has the greatest chance of being legitimately OU, and maybe Fire depending on how the meta shapes up, but all of them seem to be lower tiered threats. That being said, each of them has very real potential to at least have a usable niche in the OU tier, with Water form potentially even having the slightest niche in Ubers, which is all very cool to see.
This mon is a nice change of pace. Last time we had a DLC legendary Pokemon with a low 550 BST, it was able to punch through Protect + Bulk Up + Swords Dance + CC + auto-crit secondary STAB.
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What's the percentage for Toxic Chain to proc??? I got it like three different times and there's no way it works like this in-game. Does it work like Poison Touch?
So despite the Grassy Glide nerf, Rillaboom is still great. 70 BP Priority is still plenty strong to handle key threats like Walking Wake, Greninja, various rain mons, etc. and it has great additional utility in Knock and Drain Punch. More importantly, the Grassy Terrain it provides is extremely valuable support for many Pokemon. Grassy Terrain's passive Healing is extremely valuable to heal off residual damage from the likes of hazards. Combined with Leftovers and you basically have a discount poison Heal Gliscor for 5 - 8 turns. Lowering Earthquake damage is also highly valuable. I have been using it with Bulky Gholdengo and it makes that mon virtually unkillable.
+2 252 Atk Baxcalibur Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo in Grassy Terrain: 178-210 (47 - 55.5%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252 Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo in Grassy Terrain: 122-146 (32.2 - 38.6%) -- 5.6% chance to 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
Tusk headlong Rush throws a wrench into this of course, and Ice Spinner may start picking up steam once people realize the potential of Rilla. Nonetheless, it is a fantastic mon to have back at its full power.
CB Tyranitar is pretty great. Checks a lot of boxes in the builder. Gives you a way to interrupt weather strategies, forcing 50/50s and does extremely well vs the Zap / Glowking core. Has Low Kick to make Gambit and Ting-Lu quiver in their boots too. Tusk is the main thing holding it back, but Tar does have good anti-Tusk tech. Currently I am running Tera Blast Grass. Combined with Terrain, it can do this...
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Grass Tyranitar Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk in Grassy Terrain: 338-402 (77.8 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
Which isn't too bad. What's cool about Tar is that it is faster than Gambit and resist sucker + is super bulky, making it a great check, even to endgame gambit. Knock finally gives it a niche over Gambit.
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 177-209 (51.9 - 61.2%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery Copied
+2 252 Atk Baxcalibur Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo in Grassy Terrain: 178-210 (47 - 55.5%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252 Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo in Grassy Terrain: 122-146 (32.2 - 38.6%) -- 5.6% chance to 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
Tusk headlong Rush throws a wrench into this of course, and Ice Spinner may start picking up steam once people realize the potential of Rilla. Nonetheless, it is a fantastic mon to have back at its full power.
CB Tyranitar is pretty great. Checks a lot of boxes in the builder. Gives you a way to interrupt weather strategies, forcing 50/50s and does extremely well vs the Zap / Glowking core. Has Low Kick to make Gambit and Ting-Lu quiver in their boots too. Tusk is the main thing holding it back, but Tar does have good anti-Tusk tech. Currently I am running Tera Blast Grass. Combined with Terrain, it can do this...
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Grass Tyranitar Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk in Grassy Terrain: 338-402 (77.8 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
Which isn't too bad. What's cool about Tar is that it is faster than Gambit and resist sucker + is super bulky, making it a great check, even to endgame gambit. Knock finally gives it a niche over Gambit.
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 177-209 (51.9 - 61.2%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery Copied
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I still retain my stance from several months ago that Light Clay/Screens/Veil/[whatever you want to focus on there] only enables things that were problematic regardless and it will drop in viability if that offending element is removed. People are complaining about it buffing Bax, but Bax was already on people's radar before the DLC dropped and just got hyper buffed thanks to Scale Shot. Wouldn't be surprised if Revival Blessing (which has a similar "viability directly correlated to how much broken shit is already around" factor) saw a resurgence for similar reasons tbh.
Remove Bax first if we need to and then we can talk about Screens stuff.
Remove Bax first if we need to and then we can talk about Screens stuff.
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I’m using the big fish myself, only with Light Screen. Mirror Coat looks fun to try out though! Maybe you could give Light Screen a shot?
Honestly I have has plenty of success with Cornerstone Ogerpon. Grass/Rock is actually a solid type combo that compliments each other well. Only issues it faces are Steel types, which Ogerpon has a few means to deal with such as Low Kick.
Also don't underestimate that +1 Def. Since Ogerpon normally isn't that bulky, +1 Def is actually pretty good as a means to combat strong priority.
+2 252+ Atk Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon: 298-352 (99 - 116.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon: 199-235 (66.1 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Defense, even on offensive Pokemon, is still wildly important and for stuff like this.
Also don't underestimate that +1 Def. Since Ogerpon normally isn't that bulky, +1 Def is actually pretty good as a means to combat strong priority.
+2 252+ Atk Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon: 298-352 (99 - 116.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon: 199-235 (66.1 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Defense, even on offensive Pokemon, is still wildly important and for stuff like this.
FWIW, I do think it's a little different with Aurora Veil. It's got a bit of that Shed Tail energy, where it's actually just getting two turns in one, and really demands a more specific sort of counterplay than waiting it out.
That said, I also think anti-screens tech can and should become meta as a result of it. Maybe that's T-tar's path back to OU!
Or even use Skeledirge.
Physically Bulky Skeledirge is actually a really good answer to a lot of threats right now.
Been playing a bit of the ladder as well as some room tour shenanigans and here are some of my impressions:
Yeah, this thing is miserable to play against at the moment, and I think it's 100% banworthy, but I don't think we should address it until the meta's about a week old or so (especially since this meta's gonna become irrelevant in 2-3 months since DLC2 is slated to release at the end of the year). That being said, Scale Shot made this fucker very frustrating to play against since now it can effectively sweep and wallbreak AND maintain its good coverage with EQ all at the same time. Get this thing in behind Screens while Snow is up and you've got yourself an absolute demon waiting to barrel through everything in sight.
Honestly, if I had to pick between banning Bax or banning this, I think this is the more problematic mon by a country mile because it enables a lot more threats than just Bax (we'll get to those, trust me). Its Speed is excellent for this meta, it's not passive thanks to Encore, and it can stick around for quite a while since it's reasonably bulky on the physical side of things thanks to the Snow boost.
So yeah, is absolutely everywhere in room tours and on the ladder currently. This core is the cornerstone of all offense right now, but this may just be new toy syndrome speaking.
Another big threat; I think special or mixed sets with Tera Normal Boomburst+Throat Spray are extremely dangerous and very hard to revenge kill thanks to the speed and bulk from Clangorous Soul, and it's another great mon that fits nicely on these ridiculous Veil squads.
Awesome mon, can fit nicely on Veil as well but is kinda living in Bax's shadow at the moment. If Bax goes, this immediately becomes top-tier.
Bax struggles a bit against some extremely bulky walls. This little demon has no such issue and fits like a glove on Veil as well. I'm quite interested in trying a RestTalk set with Take Heart and Surf or Scald on a Rain team, but it's also a shoe-in on Veil teams since it can just Tail Glow up and annihilate everything at +3, and it even has Stored Power as an option against Unaware walls in a pinch. Excellent mon, also terrifying to fight.
This mon got jack shit from DLC1's TMs when everyone expected it to get Knock Off yet somehow it's coming out of this exchange even better than before. I find myself slapping this onto any sort of HO team and calling it a day. Webs? Rain? Snow? Veil? Sun? Just put Kingambit on the team and the team is better for having it. It's so nice to have this guy's Sucker Punch and Steel typing now more than ever before.
Fuck this thing. I don't think it's necessarily broken, per se, but I've never been a fan of Walking Wake's influence on the metagame and somehow this thing is still absolutely thriving in a metagame being run by Snow teams due to how decidedly limited its counterplay is.
I haven't seen it used THAT much yet, but it's frustrating whenever it comes in since it can pretty easily pass gigantic Wishes and pivot out without dying. It's definitely as mandatory on Stall as ever, but I've been seeing it on some BO teams quite a bit and it's putting in work the same way Glowking puts in a lot of work on these squads. I've ever seen both being run on the same team since they form a good slow VoltTurn-ish core and keep themselves alive through Regenerator healing.
Yeah, this guy's still solid but doesn't appreciate all the Snow everywhere. Grassy Glide is still a great move; it just isn't the tier-defining priority move it once was.
Another mon you can realistically fit on Veil teams; it REALLY likes its newly-expanded movepool and it's a halfway-decent revenge killer for a very weakened Baxcalibur.
This thing is a massive headache for Veil teams to deal with! It Court Changes the Aurora Veil away, can provide a fast Taunt to stop Alolan Ninetales from doing any of its Encore shenanigans in the first place, has strong Fire STAB for it and the next thing I'll discuss, and is generally a nuisance for the archetype to fight without something like Bulletproof Kommo-o to keep it honest.
But let's talk about another big reason why I think Veil, A-Tales, or Light Clay is the problem, and not necessarily just Baxcalibur (although that thing's a demon too): FROSMOTH
Frosmoth @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Ice Scales
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Ice Beam
- Bug Buzz
- Tera Blast
This got ranked recently on the HOME OU VR before that got locked, and I've been slapping this on Veil squads to immense success. This mon has more definitive counterplay than Bax by a longshot, but it's also a mon that can eat up staggering amounts of damage under Veil, even moreso after a Quiver Dance boost, and it will proceed to slaughter teams right then and there. It's also a great Tera abuser for these Veil squads, too; Tera Ground handles most Heatran variants and can eat hits from it for days if it Teras in retaliation before getting blown up by its STABs.
So uhh.. here's a pretty impressive Frosmoth calc:
252 SpA Choice Specs Enamorus Mystical Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ice Scales Frosmoth with an ally's Aurora Veil: 137-162 (48.7 - 57.6%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Enamorus Mystical Fire vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Ice Scales Frosmoth with an ally's Aurora Veil: 92-109 (32.7 - 38.7%) -- 99.2% chance to 3HKO
Yeah, you're reading that right: this absolute demon sets up two Quiver Dances in Specs Enamorus's face if it's at full HP and Veil is up.
It's also physically bulky enough to live this with Snow+Veil active:
252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Frosmoth in Snow with an ally's Aurora Veil: 200-236 (71.1 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
As a reminder: this thing's physical bulk is 70/60 as a baseline, yet it's eating one of the strongest neutral physical attacks ever with HP to spare if it's supported with Aurora Veil.
Ice Beam (or Blizzard), Bug Buzz, and Tera Blast Ground has excellent coverage, and Tera Ground lets it get the jump on mons like Thunder Wave Glowking and Gholdengo, which it eliminates, while dealing with Heatran as well. It's incredibly dangerous after it sets up a Quiver Dance or two (and two Quiver Dances is NOT out of the realm of possibility with how much this moth is built like a brick shithouse with Snow+Veil active) and the payoff for its extensive support requirements is absolutely gigantic.
TL;DR: Veil is nuts, Bax is very strong, and you should use Frosmoth!
Yeah, this thing is miserable to play against at the moment, and I think it's 100% banworthy, but I don't think we should address it until the meta's about a week old or so (especially since this meta's gonna become irrelevant in 2-3 months since DLC2 is slated to release at the end of the year). That being said, Scale Shot made this fucker very frustrating to play against since now it can effectively sweep and wallbreak AND maintain its good coverage with EQ all at the same time. Get this thing in behind Screens while Snow is up and you've got yourself an absolute demon waiting to barrel through everything in sight.
Honestly, if I had to pick between banning Bax or banning this, I think this is the more problematic mon by a country mile because it enables a lot more threats than just Bax (we'll get to those, trust me). Its Speed is excellent for this meta, it's not passive thanks to Encore, and it can stick around for quite a while since it's reasonably bulky on the physical side of things thanks to the Snow boost.
So yeah,
is absolutely everywhere in room tours and on the ladder currently. This core is the cornerstone of all offense right now, but this may just be new toy syndrome speaking.Another big threat; I think special or mixed sets with Tera Normal Boomburst+Throat Spray are extremely dangerous and very hard to revenge kill thanks to the speed and bulk from Clangorous Soul, and it's another great mon that fits nicely on these ridiculous Veil squads.
Awesome mon, can fit nicely on Veil as well but is kinda living in Bax's shadow at the moment. If Bax goes, this immediately becomes top-tier.
Bax struggles a bit against some extremely bulky walls. This little demon has no such issue and fits like a glove on Veil as well. I'm quite interested in trying a RestTalk set with Take Heart and Surf or Scald on a Rain team, but it's also a shoe-in on Veil teams since it can just Tail Glow up and annihilate everything at +3, and it even has Stored Power as an option against Unaware walls in a pinch. Excellent mon, also terrifying to fight.
This mon got jack shit from DLC1's TMs when everyone expected it to get Knock Off yet somehow it's coming out of this exchange even better than before. I find myself slapping this onto any sort of HO team and calling it a day. Webs? Rain? Snow? Veil? Sun? Just put Kingambit on the team and the team is better for having it. It's so nice to have this guy's Sucker Punch and Steel typing now more than ever before.
Fuck this thing. I don't think it's necessarily broken, per se, but I've never been a fan of Walking Wake's influence on the metagame and somehow this thing is still absolutely thriving in a metagame being run by Snow teams due to how decidedly limited its counterplay is.
I haven't seen it used THAT much yet, but it's frustrating whenever it comes in since it can pretty easily pass gigantic Wishes and pivot out without dying. It's definitely as mandatory on Stall as ever, but I've been seeing it on some BO teams quite a bit and it's putting in work the same way Glowking puts in a lot of work on these squads. I've ever seen both being run on the same team since they form a good slow VoltTurn-ish core and keep themselves alive through Regenerator healing.
Yeah, this guy's still solid but doesn't appreciate all the Snow everywhere. Grassy Glide is still a great move; it just isn't the tier-defining priority move it once was.
Another mon you can realistically fit on Veil teams; it REALLY likes its newly-expanded movepool and it's a halfway-decent revenge killer for a very weakened Baxcalibur.
This thing is a massive headache for Veil teams to deal with! It Court Changes the Aurora Veil away, can provide a fast Taunt to stop Alolan Ninetales from doing any of its Encore shenanigans in the first place, has strong Fire STAB for it and the next thing I'll discuss, and is generally a nuisance for the archetype to fight without something like Bulletproof Kommo-o to keep it honest.
But let's talk about another big reason why I think Veil, A-Tales, or Light Clay is the problem, and not necessarily just Baxcalibur (although that thing's a demon too): FROSMOTH
Frosmoth @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Ice Scales
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Ice Beam
- Bug Buzz
- Tera Blast
This got ranked recently on the HOME OU VR before that got locked, and I've been slapping this on Veil squads to immense success. This mon has more definitive counterplay than Bax by a longshot, but it's also a mon that can eat up staggering amounts of damage under Veil, even moreso after a Quiver Dance boost, and it will proceed to slaughter teams right then and there. It's also a great Tera abuser for these Veil squads, too; Tera Ground handles most Heatran variants and can eat hits from it for days if it Teras in retaliation before getting blown up by its STABs.
So uhh.. here's a pretty impressive Frosmoth calc:
252 SpA Choice Specs Enamorus Mystical Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ice Scales Frosmoth with an ally's Aurora Veil: 137-162 (48.7 - 57.6%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Enamorus Mystical Fire vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Ice Scales Frosmoth with an ally's Aurora Veil: 92-109 (32.7 - 38.7%) -- 99.2% chance to 3HKO
Yeah, you're reading that right: this absolute demon sets up two Quiver Dances in Specs Enamorus's face if it's at full HP and Veil is up.
It's also physically bulky enough to live this with Snow+Veil active:
252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Frosmoth in Snow with an ally's Aurora Veil: 200-236 (71.1 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
As a reminder: this thing's physical bulk is 70/60 as a baseline, yet it's eating one of the strongest neutral physical attacks ever with HP to spare if it's supported with Aurora Veil.
Ice Beam (or Blizzard), Bug Buzz, and Tera Blast Ground has excellent coverage, and Tera Ground lets it get the jump on mons like Thunder Wave Glowking and Gholdengo, which it eliminates, while dealing with Heatran as well. It's incredibly dangerous after it sets up a Quiver Dance or two (and two Quiver Dances is NOT out of the realm of possibility with how much this moth is built like a brick shithouse with Snow+Veil active) and the payoff for its extensive support requirements is absolutely gigantic.
TL;DR: Veil is nuts, Bax is very strong, and you should use Frosmoth!
I never, honestly never thought I'd live to see a gen where Ice types, as a whole, has such a massive iron grip on the tier that only seems to strengthen. By being more...sturdy and unkillable that anything else? What? If you told this to sims of past gens he'd call you a liar.
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Played quite a while and just wanted to droph random thoughts (and some takes) on the new meta
Hate hate hate. Scale shot is such a stupid buff to this mon. All its existing sets are so good but scale shot pushes many variants to the truly absurd and I've found it especially hard to handle with the currently spammed snow fox which sets screens.
Speaking of which. The think responsible for ladder becoming nothing but screens teams all night. I was not behind tiering action on screens teams before. this is pushing me close to wanting action on them in some form.
Hated this thing in the home meta and i hate it now. Prepping for this is hard enough on its own and just not possible when there are other brokens running around. Specs under sun is just too strong with too limited of responses, while it now has more tools to bs past would be checks.
No roost sucks but protect is plenty in the way of longevity given its spikes immunity. Speaking of spikes, lol this gets em now. If you ever wanted a spike setter that trolls great tusk, tera ghost gliscor is fun. Not sure how optimal but it's fun. I've faced one SD set so far.
Hey you guys wanted a Garg switch in. Still as solid as ever, especially in a metagame with so much hazard pressure. Balance will love this thing.
I'm actually pleasantly surprised by this mon (speaking in general about all four forms). I think they all have distinct strengths and weaknesses that make them unique and give them niches in some form. I think Hearthflame is the most threatening due to the typing offensively, having a great starting ability and the solid offensive stats. I've seen classy applications of the water mask on rain teams, particularly how its tera form grants it surprising resilience to revenge killing attempts. Rock is a neat lead form, and solid as a swords dancer.
Whether this remains too good down the road remains to be seen, but I like its defensive profile. It's seriously good into Dragapult, pivots into Valiant well and can help with some Enamorus. I've enjoyed physical sets to pivot around some dark types, and taunt is a great move for it to stunt slower mons.
Hate hate hate. Scale shot is such a stupid buff to this mon. All its existing sets are so good but scale shot pushes many variants to the truly absurd and I've found it especially hard to handle with the currently spammed snow fox which sets screens.
Speaking of which. The think responsible for ladder becoming nothing but screens teams all night. I was not behind tiering action on screens teams before. this is pushing me close to wanting action on them in some form.
Hated this thing in the home meta and i hate it now. Prepping for this is hard enough on its own and just not possible when there are other brokens running around. Specs under sun is just too strong with too limited of responses, while it now has more tools to bs past would be checks.
No roost sucks but protect is plenty in the way of longevity given its spikes immunity. Speaking of spikes, lol this gets em now. If you ever wanted a spike setter that trolls great tusk, tera ghost gliscor is fun. Not sure how optimal but it's fun. I've faced one SD set so far.
Hey you guys wanted a Garg switch in. Still as solid as ever, especially in a metagame with so much hazard pressure. Balance will love this thing.
I'm actually pleasantly surprised by this mon (speaking in general about all four forms). I think they all have distinct strengths and weaknesses that make them unique and give them niches in some form. I think Hearthflame is the most threatening due to the typing offensively, having a great starting ability and the solid offensive stats. I've seen classy applications of the water mask on rain teams, particularly how its tera form grants it surprising resilience to revenge killing attempts. Rock is a neat lead form, and solid as a swords dancer.
Whether this remains too good down the road remains to be seen, but I like its defensive profile. It's seriously good into Dragapult, pivots into Valiant well and can help with some Enamorus. I've enjoyed physical sets to pivot around some dark types, and taunt is a great move for it to stunt slower mons.
We've asked for years for ice to be good and then the monkey's paw curled.
Snow teams seem like they’re at gen 5 sandstorm levels of broken currently, it’s completely absurd what they can do with such little set up
Just gonna share a quick team that I've been trying before I call it a night. Disclarimer: Low ladder noob talk
Early DLC 1 Rain (pokepast.es)
The above team is something I threw together that I'm having fun with but isn't perfect. It doesn't exactly play with any new toys, but makes use of the new tools given to pre-existing mons.
- The rain setter. U-turn for momentum and knock off because utility is yes. Might switch Weather ball for roost or something. Enables the team well enough
- Powerful Swift Swim abuser. Flip Turn for momentum, Liquidation for more powerful stab, Psychic fangs to deal with all the Hail teams going around, and CC because King and Bax. I click Flip most often as it is great for my positioning.
- does Kingambit stuff
- I added it to do it's thing, but I've not had a great time with it tbh. Might try and change something, but I'm not totally sure how
- Volt switch for just so much momentum on this team. If you like a volt/turn play style, I highly recommend rain.
- A late commer to the team, I find that this is a great option for opposing weathers. Naturally has a decent matchup into hail (Heat exchange Bax can be scary, but King and Skewda do a decent job handling it for now at low ladder), I've beaten quite a few Kingambits one on one, so this is great for lots of progress and end game cleanup. Tera grass is nice as well, I often tera this guy tbh.
I'm happy with the rapid momentum building of this team. I'm sure someone will tell me to put Legion in for Skewda, but I think it's better with Psychic fangs rn (hits harder with it than either Legion gender).
Enjoy this metagame guys! Can't wait for this first ban slate to deal with hail
Early DLC 1 Rain (pokepast.es)
The above team is something I threw together that I'm having fun with but isn't perfect. It doesn't exactly play with any new toys, but makes use of the new tools given to pre-existing mons.
- The rain setter. U-turn for momentum and knock off because utility is yes. Might switch Weather ball for roost or something. Enables the team well enough - Powerful Swift Swim abuser. Flip Turn for momentum, Liquidation for more powerful stab, Psychic fangs to deal with all the Hail teams going around, and CC because King and Bax. I click Flip most often as it is great for my positioning. - does Kingambit stuff - I added it to do it's thing, but I've not had a great time with it tbh. Might try and change something, but I'm not totally sure how - Volt switch for just so much momentum on this team. If you like a volt/turn play style, I highly recommend rain. - A late commer to the team, I find that this is a great option for opposing weathers. Naturally has a decent matchup into hail (Heat exchange Bax can be scary, but King and Skewda do a decent job handling it for now at low ladder), I've beaten quite a few Kingambits one on one, so this is great for lots of progress and end game cleanup. Tera grass is nice as well, I often tera this guy tbh.I'm happy with the rapid momentum building of this team. I'm sure someone will tell me to put Legion in for Skewda, but I think it's better with Psychic fangs rn (hits harder with it than either Legion gender).
Enjoy this metagame guys! Can't wait for this first ban slate to deal with hail
I don't want to sound like a baby or anything but I really hate . I have played 70 games on ladder so far 58-12) so like high 1700s and I have had a 48 percent encounter with Bax + A-Tails. Its just a Screensfest. Oh look I get to click the same buttons every game. Sure, use whats good but its really boring when pretty much every other game is the same team. I used to cheer for Bax, the underdog that just rose from UU (how the hell was this thing in UU) but now I hate it. It was good already before the DLC, but they pushed it over the edge. They gave it Scale Shot AND gave it a good partner. This thing just sets up and then Teras to check the check and setup more. Its bulk is too much. It now can sweep easier than Kingambit, at least that one had to have mind games. Bax just boosts its speed and then you call it a day. Sure there is counterplay like Encore 
, but Bax has teammates like that can deal with Val. And if we really want to go extreme, we can just run Dozo, but running it just to check Bax is over centralizing. You pretty much have to tera to stop its sweep but then it can just switchout and sweep another time.
252 Atk Sneasler Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Baxcalibur in Snow with an ally's Aurora Veil: 141-166 (38 - 44.7%) -- 40.5% chance to 3HKO after Ice Body recovery and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Sneasler Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Baxcalibur with an ally's Aurora Veil: 210-247 (56.6 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Even Sneasler doesn't OHKO it and keep in mind Bax didn't even tera. I hope Bax gets a Suspect Test or a Quickban, or somehow day two of the meta has figured out a counter to Bax. Sorry man you just pushed it over the edge.
(reminds me of that meme in megamind)
blah blah blah
ur under new management!!
. I have played 70 games on ladder so far 58-12) so like high 1700s and I have had a 48 percent encounter with Bax + A-Tails. Its just a Screensfest. Oh look I get to click the same buttons every game. Sure, use whats good but its really boring when pretty much every other game is the same team. I used to cheer for Bax, the underdog that just rose from UU (how the hell was this thing in UU) but now I hate it. It was good already before the DLC, but they pushed it over the edge. They gave it Scale Shot AND gave it a good partner. This thing just sets up and then Teras to check the check and setup more. Its bulk is too much. It now can sweep easier than Kingambit, at least that one had to have mind games. Bax just boosts its speed and then you call it a day. Sure there is counterplay like Encore , but Bax has teammates like that can deal with Val. And if we really want to go extreme, we can just run Dozo, but running it just to check Bax is over centralizing. You pretty much have to tera to stop its sweep but then it can just switchout and sweep another time.252 Atk Sneasler Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Baxcalibur in Snow with an ally's Aurora Veil: 141-166 (38 - 44.7%) -- 40.5% chance to 3HKO after Ice Body recovery and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Sneasler Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Baxcalibur with an ally's Aurora Veil: 210-247 (56.6 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Even Sneasler doesn't OHKO it and keep in mind Bax didn't even tera. I hope Bax gets a Suspect Test or a Quickban, or somehow day two of the meta has figured out a counter to Bax. Sorry man you just pushed it over the edge.
(reminds me of that meme in megamind)
blah blah blah
ur under new management!!
I was just about to ask how's Dozo been working out for those using it. I'm taking a break until the dust clears and Bax is axed.
Have you been ok with the turn length of Terrain without the extender? Also what's the rilla set if you don't mind, might wanna ape it myself
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Syrup Bomb on a Mirror Armor pokemon is an weird interaction.
I prefer to use Terrain Extender since the effects of Terrain are really nice on Defensive Gholdengo. Tyranitar likes the passive healing as well. Of course, the enemy can benefit from the terrain as well.
For the Rilla set, I just stole the standard Bulky SD set from Sword and Shield.
I slapped this team together in like, 10 minutes: https://pokepast.es/354c9af62676f708
Would appreciate any feedback if possible, I am not the best builder.
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