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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
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Hey this all requires very specific things to go their way. Cinderace you got me but that is literally OU because it can Court change and it isnt blocked by ghold. Tusk has to play right and if you play wrong guess what the best spinner cant remove hazards. And its really not hard to play wrong you just get a couple 50/50s wrong and thats it.
Trading is a great way of being able to handle a hazard setter. You're arguing if i trade samurott hisui you have glimmora in the back for example? Hazard Offense doesn't give have to give more than one slot up for hazard setting. It commonly is: 1 hazard setter (like a ting lu, glimmora, or hisui samurott), gholdengo, 4 very offensive mons. If you want to give one of your offensive mons up to run a second hazard stacker, be my guest your team becomes easier to deal with.
Yeah the argument that Ghold only impacts Corv so it isn't worth considering any action to it is not fair at all. If Corv were viable it does so well against the 3 spikes setters everyone is saying are an issue. And it's not like every team would run Corv, it would just take some of the usage that Tusk has presumably.
I also mainly play offense in the same ladder region and this is my experience too.
Even tho tusk is essentially the only viable rapid spinner, booster energy tusk is perhaps best spinner in any OU generation I’ve played, and cinderace being super viable rn can also punish/deter hazard stack if that’s what you desire
I get this is my experience cuz I basically never play fat balances/stall, but I also kinda like how hazards force progress more quick and there’s less dependence on scald/knock/toxic/flame body to make progress.
Why are we pretending that Corviknight is suddenly unviable just because Gholdengo exists?
Corviknight is still solidly the secondly most commonly used hazard remover in the tier (in every bracket) despite Gholdengo's existence.
In fact, majority of Corviknights are still running Defog despite the knowledge that they can struggle against Gholdengo if they run into one.
If anything, the fact that people are not turning to shitty mons just to get past Gholdengo; and conversely are willing to run hazard removal that loses to Gholdengo; really shows that Gholdengo is not some overcentralising force.
If hazard turns out to be a problem, then hazard is the problem.
Edit: Banning Gholdengo will not "double" our number of viable hazard removers because Corviknight and Mandibuzz are never unviable in the first place. It's functionally removing 1 very good mon in the meta to make increase the relative viability of 2 already viable mons, while not doing anything to deter hazards.
I rather just accept that hazards is part of the meta and learn to build around it rather than hope that banning Gholdengo is going to change anything. I very much prefer a metagame where the choice of hazard control is more nuanced based on teams (and that includes Haterrene or slapping multiple HDB), over one where hazard control is reduced to the dichotomy of "Do I pick Tusk or Corv?"
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Spending one of your few Trick Room turns setting up and using your tera seems really bad. That said, I totally missed it getting Leech Life. Won't be OU material, but self healing is something Dusk has wanted for ages and it offers Dark coverage too so that's really cool to see.
Its so funny, while on my morning toke n' walk I was thinking about how similar Oger and Ursa are! Only thing that's different is Oger having the one thing, the very one thing Ursa lacked, amd thats speed.
Ursa would glady gut its own HP stat for that kind of speed.
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Banning Gholdengo is smart because if we have to ban a lot of mons after Gholdengo we would be free of this meta
I really dont see how a mon being run in OU despite being walled by an overcentralizing threat makes that threat less overcentralized.
As a good example, people did run defensive zapdos in the meta where zygarde was deemed overcentralizing. No hurricane, toxic or hp ice, just discharge heat wave defog which hard loses to zygarde. Its run because that set is just that good in ou that its amazing if your opponent happens to not have zygarde. The same concept is happening here. People arent running defog corv hoping to run into ghold, they run defog corv because its really good if gholdengo doesnt appear.
If gholdengo does appear, however, its pretty useless. Pretty much just appears to try to wall and deal with the couple of mons corv deals with if they try a setup and otherwise it just uturns. Really that just gives a good glimpse of how good corv would be if ghold WAS banned.
Can you point me to a great hazard stack team that don't even run Gholdengo?
It’s more like, if you play smart, gholdengo doesn’t actually ruin a corvi players chances at removing hazards because U-turn exists. going into gholdengo everytime a corvi might defog is gonna lose you the game.
The two in the sample teams post I quoted?
Overall, I'd find the meta at a 4 in terms of balance rn and a 6 for enjoyment. Definitely more fun than last week's Veil simulator but there's some glaring issues that should be addressed. The diversity in team archetypes does make this meta very interesting though, there are a ton of viable styles rn. Here's some thoughts, going off the survey:
- 4
Absolutely the top offensive threat in the meta right now. The pure power is talked about a ton (and for good reason) but one of this things standout traits to me is it's pure variance in what it can slot in its 3rd/4th move slots that aren't SD or Ivy. It gets great coverage like Play Rough, Knock, and Superpower that hit the few things that can take a hit from this hard. Trailblaze and Encore are moves I've used and seen used on this to great success too. It doesn't feel like a case of 4mss as SD + Ivy is enough to ruin a lot of the meta on its own. So it never feels like it NEEDS all these coverage moves, leaving it the leeway to run a plethora of other options based on what the team needs. It's just so hard to prep for and even if you think you do you get encored or something and you're boned. It's checks are basically limited to defensive tera's, priority/outspeeding (trailblaze sets nullify the latter option), and hazards chip. Hazards are the biggest thorn in it's side and can make it a little hard to splash on some teams. But even with the hazards susceptibility it's hard to one shot because of its awkward typing and surprisingly passable bulk. And, it fits wonderfully on veil and sun, two playstyles that are super good rn. Saying this is a 4 could be underselling it honestly, its just so strong and has ways to work around any team archetype it needs to. Just inherently a touch inconsistent because of the lack of boots/other way of dealing with hazards. Regardless of that, Mold Breaker pre-tera is amazing vs Unaware shit and the attack boost post-tera just sends it more over the edge. Oh, and it gets a 20% boost just for Being Ogerpon, just to add the cherry on top of what is a damn near perfect offensive weapon. Def worthy of a suspect at minimum.
- 3
Wellspring is much less polarizing of a mon, for better and and worse. While it's not the same mind-boggling breaker that Hearthflame is, it still has ridiculous power and is more consistent overall. It's typing and neutrality to rocks lends itself to being much more splashable on a variety of teams. It may not have Mold Breaker or get +1 attack after a tera, but Water Absorb is a great ability as well that is super valuable to a lot of teams. The +1 sp. def it gains post-tera can come in handy to help it get an extra SD up vs stuff like Wake, Gren, and Ghold for example. After an SD, you do a ton of damage to even typical water resists with just Cudgel, doing well over half to Amoongus for example (and one shotting it 75% of the time in rain, which is a playstyle Wellspring dominates on). And as I previously raved about Hearthflame's movepool, Wellspring is blessed with the same. Specifically I like Encore + SD on this form, as it can beat a lot of teams on its own with just one fortunate Encore. After an SD it's incredibly hard to stop, and it's consistency at doing its job makes it feel Very Very good to me right now. Not broken (for the time being), but definitely a top tier mon in the meta.
Not on the survey, but figured I'd still talk about her to round out thoughts on the masked Ogers (haven't used or seen regular grass Pon much at all so I can't give a good opinion). Rock/Grass is a sneaky good typing, being neutral or better vs like 85% of moves. This on top of the aforementioned passable bulk and sturdy as its pre-tera ability ensures at least one SD, which as seen with the other forms, is usually all you need. Horn Leech + Sturdy is a cool combo as you can re-activate sturdy potentially if you take hazards or a weak hit. + Def post-tera helps you set up on the plethora of physical attackers in the tier. It's the same song and dance as the other forms, Rock Cudgel just rips most things and it's solid coverage + great stats (and The Ogerpon 20% Boost) make it a very great breaker. Doesn't fit on as many teams as Wellspring and isn't as nuclear as Hearthflame, but it definitely has its niche and should not be underestimated.
- 1 or 2 (leaning 1)
Feel like the hype for this guy was a little much for what he really is. Manaphy makes light work of balance teams obviously, but feels pretty useless in a lot of offense matchups. It's not strong at all before a boost, and theres plenty of things standing in its way from even getting a boost in the first place. TONS of threats outspeed this thing or can take a hit and threaten an OHKO. On top of that, Encore is EVERYWHERE so setting up can be risky vs a lot of meta-relevant threats. Manaphy also suffers a bit from 4mss, Surf and DGleam cover a lot of things but it also would like to have Energy Ball, Psychic, and Ice Beam as coverage too. Not the biggest issue for it, but worth mentioning, as it does add a layer of inconsistency and does play a part against a lot of teams. It lacks reliable recovery outside of rain + rest hydration, but even then when it runs rest it has one less coverage move, exemplifying the issue a bit more. It's insane on veil and great on rain, which keeps it from being a for sure 1 to me but outside of these playstyles it feels much weaker than what was originally expected. But just because it's good on these styles doesn't make it super broken, other mons are better than Manaphy within these playstyles rn imo anyways. Even on veil/rain, there's ways to get around it and the counterplay feels much more accessible and feasible than the truly busted stuff like Ogerpon-H. Manaphy losing to very common and powerful offensive playstyles as a whole makes it an inconsistent pick. I think sets involving Take Heart or even Acid Armor sets can be really cool going forward but definitely need more time there. I think Manaphy is not only manageable, but also a pretty healthy part of this metagame (at the moment).
- 2 or 3
In terms of being annoying to play against its like a 5 but veil feels a little less daunting than it was a week or so ago. Veil does have some things going against it now. Other weathers are everywhere, making setting veil at all a challenge sometimes. Cinderace being really common hurts too, as one Court Change can flip Veil on its head. It also has a hard time setting a veil later into a game due to being very weak to hazards. But once the Veil itself gets up it can still feel hopeless sometimes. It wins 1v1s at a rate normal gimmick setters do not, due to its speed, surprising bulk, and Encore, making setting Veil no problem (outside of the aforementioned issues which dont happen all the time). I still think it's overall impact on the tier is a negative one, as veil leaves almost no margin of error when you play against it, but it's not the biggest issue now. Still wouldn't mind seeing action eventually taken if it gets much better though.
- 3
Similar to Manaphy, this thing just eats balance alive but it's definitely better right now. Calm Mind sets are incredibly hard to deal with, whether it's the Moonlight or Vacuum Wave variants. Before it even sets up though, Ursa-B hits like a truck spamming it's near unresisted STABS. If it's gets a CM boost or two it becomes so hard to break through and basically impossible to take a hit from. It feels like if this thing isn't straight sweeping, it's taking at least like 1 or 2 mons with it, or even more if it has Vacuum Wave to pick off weakened would-be revenge killers. It is really slow which definitely holds it back but its insane bulk helps. I'm personally partial to CM Moonlight variants, but Tera Fight Vaccum Wave also feels hard to deal with. Also other unexplored options could be cool, like Moonblast + Tera Fairy and stuff like boots 3 attacks or even specs. The CM sets definitely are definitely what makes this, and it's REALLY good right now. Eats all the Gliscor hazard stack type balances alive, and can hold its own vs offense. Could be worth looking into in the future.
- 2
I underestimated Gliscor a lot when the DLC first dropped, but after playing for a while yeah it totally deserves to be talked about and I wasnt surprised to see it on the survey. I knew once Bax was banned and Veil wasn't 70% of ladder this would take off. This feels like a somehow more reliable Ting-Lu when it comes to hazard stacking. It absolutely spits in the face of the two most common forms of hazard control in the tier being Tusk and Cinderace (run ice spinner on Tusk if you aren't already please). It just sits there and spreads Toxic around and sets hazards and doesn't die. The loss of Roost was not a big deal at all as now it just runs protect and still lives forever. It's by far the best Knock Off absorber in the tier, which is huge after it's distribution was upped. It fits on almost any team type that isn't standard hyper offense, even making its way onto some weather teams too. It isn't just a one-trick pony either, as SD sets are very viable and very dangerous to balances. Definitely a mon to keep an eye on. A lot of teams don't really have an answer to this thing at the moment, its so good into a LOT of meta relevant threats. I see it as a 2 for now but I could easily see this thing being VERY centralizing in the near future and potentially being looked into.
Two other mons that have stood out to me that I want to talk about:
He never left. Still likely the best late game sweeper and is at the absolutetop of the meta still. It fits on every relevant playstyle except like hard stall. Rain, sun, veil, BO, balance, all these styles could fit Gambit on and be straight up better because of it. Benefits from hazard stacking getting even better, so Sucker cleans up even easier. Tera Fire feels really good rn because you take a hit from the best mon in the tier, Oger-H, and set up on it. Also you avoid the wisp from stuff like Ace and Moltres. Still such a restrictive force that won't be going anywhere anytime soon.
Feels WAY better than it ever has this generation. Getting Knock Off back gives this thing a genuine niche, it can annoy the shit out of fatter teams while still having a great speed tier and priority for offense. Rips apart the best Knock Off absorber in the tier in Gliscor, meaning one of its teammates will have to lose an item. Just having that spammable fast strong Knock Off makes it almost never a zero in a matchup. It's speed let's it outpace every meta relevant threat that isnt named Pult or Zama without a boost. Yes there are still roadblocks for it like Dozo and Zama, but knocking off their items will always be a plus. Low Kick is neat for stuff like Gambit and SD is good when you don't run into the aforementioned Dozo. Highly recommend this guy, not gonna say he's back yet but VERY much on his way back.
That's all I got for this post (basically essay), TLDR all the Ogerpons are amazing but especially Hearthflame, Manaphy overrated and Blood Moon rules. Happy testing!
Absolutely the top offensive threat in the meta right now. The pure power is talked about a ton (and for good reason) but one of this things standout traits to me is it's pure variance in what it can slot in its 3rd/4th move slots that aren't SD or Ivy. It gets great coverage like Play Rough, Knock, and Superpower that hit the few things that can take a hit from this hard. Trailblaze and Encore are moves I've used and seen used on this to great success too. It doesn't feel like a case of 4mss as SD + Ivy is enough to ruin a lot of the meta on its own. So it never feels like it NEEDS all these coverage moves, leaving it the leeway to run a plethora of other options based on what the team needs. It's just so hard to prep for and even if you think you do you get encored or something and you're boned. It's checks are basically limited to defensive tera's, priority/outspeeding (trailblaze sets nullify the latter option), and hazards chip. Hazards are the biggest thorn in it's side and can make it a little hard to splash on some teams. But even with the hazards susceptibility it's hard to one shot because of its awkward typing and surprisingly passable bulk. And, it fits wonderfully on veil and sun, two playstyles that are super good rn. Saying this is a 4 could be underselling it honestly, its just so strong and has ways to work around any team archetype it needs to. Just inherently a touch inconsistent because of the lack of boots/other way of dealing with hazards. Regardless of that, Mold Breaker pre-tera is amazing vs Unaware shit and the attack boost post-tera just sends it more over the edge. Oh, and it gets a 20% boost just for Being Ogerpon, just to add the cherry on top of what is a damn near perfect offensive weapon. Def worthy of a suspect at minimum.
Wellspring is much less polarizing of a mon, for better and and worse. While it's not the same mind-boggling breaker that Hearthflame is, it still has ridiculous power and is more consistent overall. It's typing and neutrality to rocks lends itself to being much more splashable on a variety of teams. It may not have Mold Breaker or get +1 attack after a tera, but Water Absorb is a great ability as well that is super valuable to a lot of teams. The +1 sp. def it gains post-tera can come in handy to help it get an extra SD up vs stuff like Wake, Gren, and Ghold for example. After an SD, you do a ton of damage to even typical water resists with just Cudgel, doing well over half to Amoongus for example (and one shotting it 75% of the time in rain, which is a playstyle Wellspring dominates on). And as I previously raved about Hearthflame's movepool, Wellspring is blessed with the same. Specifically I like Encore + SD on this form, as it can beat a lot of teams on its own with just one fortunate Encore. After an SD it's incredibly hard to stop, and it's consistency at doing its job makes it feel Very Very good to me right now. Not broken (for the time being), but definitely a top tier mon in the meta.
Not on the survey, but figured I'd still talk about her to round out thoughts on the masked Ogers (haven't used or seen regular grass Pon much at all so I can't give a good opinion). Rock/Grass is a sneaky good typing, being neutral or better vs like 85% of moves. This on top of the aforementioned passable bulk and sturdy as its pre-tera ability ensures at least one SD, which as seen with the other forms, is usually all you need. Horn Leech + Sturdy is a cool combo as you can re-activate sturdy potentially if you take hazards or a weak hit. + Def post-tera helps you set up on the plethora of physical attackers in the tier. It's the same song and dance as the other forms, Rock Cudgel just rips most things and it's solid coverage + great stats (and The Ogerpon 20% Boost) make it a very great breaker. Doesn't fit on as many teams as Wellspring and isn't as nuclear as Hearthflame, but it definitely has its niche and should not be underestimated.
Feel like the hype for this guy was a little much for what he really is. Manaphy makes light work of balance teams obviously, but feels pretty useless in a lot of offense matchups. It's not strong at all before a boost, and theres plenty of things standing in its way from even getting a boost in the first place. TONS of threats outspeed this thing or can take a hit and threaten an OHKO. On top of that, Encore is EVERYWHERE so setting up can be risky vs a lot of meta-relevant threats. Manaphy also suffers a bit from 4mss, Surf and DGleam cover a lot of things but it also would like to have Energy Ball, Psychic, and Ice Beam as coverage too. Not the biggest issue for it, but worth mentioning, as it does add a layer of inconsistency and does play a part against a lot of teams. It lacks reliable recovery outside of rain + rest hydration, but even then when it runs rest it has one less coverage move, exemplifying the issue a bit more. It's insane on veil and great on rain, which keeps it from being a for sure 1 to me but outside of these playstyles it feels much weaker than what was originally expected. But just because it's good on these styles doesn't make it super broken, other mons are better than Manaphy within these playstyles rn imo anyways. Even on veil/rain, there's ways to get around it and the counterplay feels much more accessible and feasible than the truly busted stuff like Ogerpon-H. Manaphy losing to very common and powerful offensive playstyles as a whole makes it an inconsistent pick. I think sets involving Take Heart or even Acid Armor sets can be really cool going forward but definitely need more time there. I think Manaphy is not only manageable, but also a pretty healthy part of this metagame (at the moment).
In terms of being annoying to play against its like a 5 but veil feels a little less daunting than it was a week or so ago. Veil does have some things going against it now. Other weathers are everywhere, making setting veil at all a challenge sometimes. Cinderace being really common hurts too, as one Court Change can flip Veil on its head. It also has a hard time setting a veil later into a game due to being very weak to hazards. But once the Veil itself gets up it can still feel hopeless sometimes. It wins 1v1s at a rate normal gimmick setters do not, due to its speed, surprising bulk, and Encore, making setting Veil no problem (outside of the aforementioned issues which dont happen all the time). I still think it's overall impact on the tier is a negative one, as veil leaves almost no margin of error when you play against it, but it's not the biggest issue now. Still wouldn't mind seeing action eventually taken if it gets much better though.
Similar to Manaphy, this thing just eats balance alive but it's definitely better right now. Calm Mind sets are incredibly hard to deal with, whether it's the Moonlight or Vacuum Wave variants. Before it even sets up though, Ursa-B hits like a truck spamming it's near unresisted STABS. If it's gets a CM boost or two it becomes so hard to break through and basically impossible to take a hit from. It feels like if this thing isn't straight sweeping, it's taking at least like 1 or 2 mons with it, or even more if it has Vacuum Wave to pick off weakened would-be revenge killers. It is really slow which definitely holds it back but its insane bulk helps. I'm personally partial to CM Moonlight variants, but Tera Fight Vaccum Wave also feels hard to deal with. Also other unexplored options could be cool, like Moonblast + Tera Fairy and stuff like boots 3 attacks or even specs. The CM sets definitely are definitely what makes this, and it's REALLY good right now. Eats all the Gliscor hazard stack type balances alive, and can hold its own vs offense. Could be worth looking into in the future.
I underestimated Gliscor a lot when the DLC first dropped, but after playing for a while yeah it totally deserves to be talked about and I wasnt surprised to see it on the survey. I knew once Bax was banned and Veil wasn't 70% of ladder this would take off. This feels like a somehow more reliable Ting-Lu when it comes to hazard stacking. It absolutely spits in the face of the two most common forms of hazard control in the tier being Tusk and Cinderace (run ice spinner on Tusk if you aren't already please). It just sits there and spreads Toxic around and sets hazards and doesn't die. The loss of Roost was not a big deal at all as now it just runs protect and still lives forever. It's by far the best Knock Off absorber in the tier, which is huge after it's distribution was upped. It fits on almost any team type that isn't standard hyper offense, even making its way onto some weather teams too. It isn't just a one-trick pony either, as SD sets are very viable and very dangerous to balances. Definitely a mon to keep an eye on. A lot of teams don't really have an answer to this thing at the moment, its so good into a LOT of meta relevant threats. I see it as a 2 for now but I could easily see this thing being VERY centralizing in the near future and potentially being looked into.
Two other mons that have stood out to me that I want to talk about:
He never left. Still likely the best late game sweeper and is at the absolutetop of the meta still. It fits on every relevant playstyle except like hard stall. Rain, sun, veil, BO, balance, all these styles could fit Gambit on and be straight up better because of it. Benefits from hazard stacking getting even better, so Sucker cleans up even easier. Tera Fire feels really good rn because you take a hit from the best mon in the tier, Oger-H, and set up on it. Also you avoid the wisp from stuff like Ace and Moltres. Still such a restrictive force that won't be going anywhere anytime soon.
Feels WAY better than it ever has this generation. Getting Knock Off back gives this thing a genuine niche, it can annoy the shit out of fatter teams while still having a great speed tier and priority for offense. Rips apart the best Knock Off absorber in the tier in Gliscor, meaning one of its teammates will have to lose an item. Just having that spammable fast strong Knock Off makes it almost never a zero in a matchup. It's speed let's it outpace every meta relevant threat that isnt named Pult or Zama without a boost. Yes there are still roadblocks for it like Dozo and Zama, but knocking off their items will always be a plus. Low Kick is neat for stuff like Gambit and SD is good when you don't run into the aforementioned Dozo. Highly recommend this guy, not gonna say he's back yet but VERY much on his way back.
That's all I got for this post (basically essay), TLDR all the Ogerpons are amazing but especially Hearthflame, Manaphy overrated and Blood Moon rules. Happy testing!
I'll believe that Gholdengo is the issue, and not how well distributed Spikes is versus how poorly distributed removal is, when the tier begins widespread use of jank sets like Mold Breaker Defog Hawlucha or Oricorio-Sensu.
+1 252 SpA Oricorio-Sensu Revelation Dance vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 390-462 (103.1 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Quiver Dance on the predicted switch and you outspeed and OHKO every common Gholdengo set.
There's also more options than just "Tusk or Cinderace or GTFO" - Maushold isn't bad, defensive teams can use Talonflame over Moltres, Weezing-Galar and Conkeldurr are underexplored, etc. None of them are splashable and all do have their issues, but if removal was really so desperate a problem that Gholdengo needs to be banned, shouldn't at least some of them have picked up serious usage?
+1 252 SpA Oricorio-Sensu Revelation Dance vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 390-462 (103.1 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Quiver Dance on the predicted switch and you outspeed and OHKO every common Gholdengo set.
There's also more options than just "Tusk or Cinderace or GTFO" - Maushold isn't bad, defensive teams can use Talonflame over Moltres, Weezing-Galar and Conkeldurr are underexplored, etc. None of them are splashable and all do have their issues, but if removal was really so desperate a problem that Gholdengo needs to be banned, shouldn't at least some of them have picked up serious usage?
Okay I'm gonna do this now so I can get my opinion out of my mouth.
Foger
(1-5): 5
I can't bring myself to think this is even remotely healthy. It genuinely makes building teams a nightmare. Do you know what checks it? Your guess is as good as mine until you find out what its coverage is. I can't find one good reason to keep it around, it needs to go ASAP.
Woger
(1-5): 4
I find Woger to be just as unhealthy as Foger. Rain turns it into an insane monster and although it doesn't get the same applicable type-STAB that Foger does, Grass-Water-Dark/Fairy still dismantles traditional defensive cores with ease. Woger tends to run away with the game quickly unless you have a select number of checks and offensive counter-measures to stop its sweep. Additionally, it tends to stick around longer than Foger thanks to its better defensive typing, Water Absorb, and SpD boost after Tera. Without a doubt, this is equally as monstrous as Foger in its own way and should NOT be here.
Manaphy
(1-5): 3
I don't know how to feel about it honestly. When it pulls off a sweep it feels kinda cheap, but a lot of conditions need to be met before it can do that. However, I think Manaphy is being dampened a lot by the hell-spawn Teal Mask dropped, and we will see what kind of meta it makes for shortly when things calm down. For now, I'll give it a happy medium at 3.
Ninetales-Alola
(1-5): 2
I think a lot of what is plaguing the tier right now is due in part to the sheer volume of offensive threats that exploit common defensive cores and make it difficult to build without an excessive amount of pre-planning. However, I don't think that A9T is the problem so much as its exacerbates an already existing issue. Aurora Veil feels manageable even with Light Clay, and the already potent threats it supports with screens support seem to be / have been broken regardless (I.E. pre/post-DLC Baxcalibur).
Ursaluna-Bloodmoon
(1-5): 3
I don't know what to say about Bloona. I've gotten a lot of hearsay from the general community, but these are the same people that complained about Ursaluna and Walking Wake when they dropped to OU. I know it rips through balance structures like crazy, clicks Blood Moon, and does screw-all with the proper Tera. However, I think it's another victim held back by the disgusting amount of pressure Foger and Woger put on the tier right now. I'm on the fence about it, perhaps once Foger and Woger are banned we'll see how unkempt it can get. For now, I think 3 is a fair rating.
Gliscor
(1-5): 2
I said it was disgraced compared to its previous appearances and I meant it, but it has turned out better than I anticipated. I don't want to talk on it until I have a better idea of why people think it is problematic other than speculation, so for now I'll leave it where I think it is-- 2.
Kingambit
(1-5): 4
This is my own personal inclusion, but I think Kingambit is ridiculously stupid. It hinges on so much at once that touching it now seems foolish until DLC2 when we can reevaluate the major components of the metagame, but I think this thing needs GONE. There is nothing I can say that hasn't already been stated previously, it's a snowball in the back of the team that cleans up for free. I hate it.
Foger
(1-5): 5I can't bring myself to think this is even remotely healthy. It genuinely makes building teams a nightmare. Do you know what checks it? Your guess is as good as mine until you find out what its coverage is. I can't find one good reason to keep it around, it needs to go ASAP.
Woger
(1-5): 4I find Woger to be just as unhealthy as Foger. Rain turns it into an insane monster and although it doesn't get the same applicable type-STAB that Foger does, Grass-Water-Dark/Fairy still dismantles traditional defensive cores with ease. Woger tends to run away with the game quickly unless you have a select number of checks and offensive counter-measures to stop its sweep. Additionally, it tends to stick around longer than Foger thanks to its better defensive typing, Water Absorb, and SpD boost after Tera. Without a doubt, this is equally as monstrous as Foger in its own way and should NOT be here.
Manaphy
(1-5): 3I don't know how to feel about it honestly. When it pulls off a sweep it feels kinda cheap, but a lot of conditions need to be met before it can do that. However, I think Manaphy is being dampened a lot by the hell-spawn Teal Mask dropped, and we will see what kind of meta it makes for shortly when things calm down. For now, I'll give it a happy medium at 3.
Ninetales-Alola
(1-5): 2I think a lot of what is plaguing the tier right now is due in part to the sheer volume of offensive threats that exploit common defensive cores and make it difficult to build without an excessive amount of pre-planning. However, I don't think that A9T is the problem so much as its exacerbates an already existing issue. Aurora Veil feels manageable even with Light Clay, and the already potent threats it supports with screens support seem to be / have been broken regardless (I.E. pre/post-DLC Baxcalibur).
Ursaluna-Bloodmoon
(1-5): 3I don't know what to say about Bloona. I've gotten a lot of hearsay from the general community, but these are the same people that complained about Ursaluna and Walking Wake when they dropped to OU. I know it rips through balance structures like crazy, clicks Blood Moon, and does screw-all with the proper Tera. However, I think it's another victim held back by the disgusting amount of pressure Foger and Woger put on the tier right now. I'm on the fence about it, perhaps once Foger and Woger are banned we'll see how unkempt it can get. For now, I think 3 is a fair rating.
Gliscor
(1-5): 2I said it was disgraced compared to its previous appearances and I meant it, but it has turned out better than I anticipated. I don't want to talk on it until I have a better idea of why people think it is problematic other than speculation, so for now I'll leave it where I think it is-- 2.
Kingambit
(1-5): 4This is my own personal inclusion, but I think Kingambit is ridiculously stupid. It hinges on so much at once that touching it now seems foolish until DLC2 when we can reevaluate the major components of the metagame, but I think this thing needs GONE. There is nothing I can say that hasn't already been stated previously, it's a snowball in the back of the team that cleans up for free. I hate it.
I think the problem is that there is no hazard removing tool that also advances the gamestate. In a singles format where each player gets 1 input per turn, the advantage goes to the player who gets the most done with their single input. This can be achieved through simple overwhelming force, and force the opponent to have 0 options by knocking out their pokemon every turn 100% of the time at its most exaggerated. But it can also be achieved with turn advantage where you maximize the number of actions per turn.
Gamefreak and the Pokemon Company have been adding moves and abilities that are either overwhelmingly strong or do multiple things at once, probably most noticeable in Gen 8/9 with things like Fisheous Rend and Last Respects for power output, and things like Shed Tail and Ceaseless Edge (and more lesserly Stone Axe) for turn economy. For example Shed Tail is a free sub+ switch, and Ceaseless Edge is moderate damage (which in itself accelerates the gamestate) plus spikes, and Kingambit just gets free swords dances. And likely we'll see such moves and abilities continue to be added at an increasingly frequent rate.
Rapid Spin does do damage and raises speed but its not really a strong move, Defog and Court Change deal no damage. They have very minimal impact on the gamestate besides reset a very minor portion of the board. Meanwhile hazard setters have moves that bring hazards back on the field and do damage for free. Ghold is a secondary symptom in that it does block 90% of hazard removal moves and it inherently Feels Bad to have it happen, but at the end of the day the hazards will come back and your removal mon's going to get hit in the face with a decently boosted dark type move in the process.
I'm not sure what the best solution will be, but I think its in the best interest for councils and the mechanics testers of Smogon do some metaphorical tea leaf readings and fortune tellings based on what Gamefreak has already given us. See what has already happened, what could logically escalate from there, and think on how to approach it. Moves/Abilities are only going to get stronger for VGC and Singles is sensitive to turn advantage.
Gamefreak and the Pokemon Company have been adding moves and abilities that are either overwhelmingly strong or do multiple things at once, probably most noticeable in Gen 8/9 with things like Fisheous Rend and Last Respects for power output, and things like Shed Tail and Ceaseless Edge (and more lesserly Stone Axe) for turn economy. For example Shed Tail is a free sub+ switch, and Ceaseless Edge is moderate damage (which in itself accelerates the gamestate) plus spikes, and Kingambit just gets free swords dances. And likely we'll see such moves and abilities continue to be added at an increasingly frequent rate.
Rapid Spin does do damage and raises speed but its not really a strong move, Defog and Court Change deal no damage. They have very minimal impact on the gamestate besides reset a very minor portion of the board. Meanwhile hazard setters have moves that bring hazards back on the field and do damage for free. Ghold is a secondary symptom in that it does block 90% of hazard removal moves and it inherently Feels Bad to have it happen, but at the end of the day the hazards will come back and your removal mon's going to get hit in the face with a decently boosted dark type move in the process.
I'm not sure what the best solution will be, but I think its in the best interest for councils and the mechanics testers of Smogon do some metaphorical tea leaf readings and fortune tellings based on what Gamefreak has already given us. See what has already happened, what could logically escalate from there, and think on how to approach it. Moves/Abilities are only going to get stronger for VGC and Singles is sensitive to turn advantage.
Like drop giratina to OU
The current Gholdengo set in National Dex is also designed to oneshot utility Tornadus-Therian at +2 with make it rain while living two heat waves from the offensive variants of the latter - its Zapdos level bulk is very customisable.
Maushold is bad, talonflame is increasingly hard to fit as the power level goes up (and can't even defog vs bulky Gholdengo that reliably). WeezingG is niche and hard to fit (plus has a ton of flaws that hamper it's effectiveness), and Conk sucks.
Then just run tusk.
speaking of tusk, booster energy offensive feels better than ever. I’ve been running this set and it does so fucking much (no surprise lol, everybody already knew tusk is good). Maybe the most well positioned tusk option in the meta rn?
Great Tusk @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Headlong Rush/Earthquake
- Close Combat
- Ice Spinner
This sounds very flip floppy between "hazards ain't all that" and "not being able to remove hazards sucks". hazard setting moves didn't have to deal damage the turn they were used, to be very powerful. and what sort of hazard removal that advances the game state are we talking about? an 80 power flying type rapid spin? how would that not turn any metagame into a stallfest just with different characters? to be clear hazard cleaning as we know it this far, with the exception of court change, is always a momentum resetting play, because switching around to try to gain momentum plays right into the hazard setter's hands. are these hypothetical hazard clearing moves supposed to switch the user out after they do their thing? fill us in here.
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"Just run tusk lmao" is kind of a bad argument imo when you consider that 1: Tusk needs to win several predictions over key turns with the ghold switchin + potential for the ghold to switch out into something like Valiant that absorbs the EQ and can beat the tusk, 2: You're probably sacking your Tusk for one turn of hazard removal, which is, y'know, not ideal vs Hazard stack, which can just set up more hazards via the durable and ever-annoying Gliscor, and 3: You invite threats in while you spin that easily dominate with only a single turn of setup while you switch like Gliscor, Valiant, Wake, Ogerpon, Zama, even stuff like Tera Flying Sneasler that could easily get 2 turns with a surprise Tera. Also, tusk has been consistently the most used pokemon in the tier (after Kingambit, stupid busted-ass chess nerd), do you think we would be having this discussion if tusk was actually the end-all-be-all for hazard removal?
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