Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[Schpoonman]

I feel like a Solgaleo drop should be put on the backburner just on principle. We'll have time to deal with it after problem elements still present.

That being said, it's still packing a bevy of high power physical moves, one of its STABs being a Moldy move, huge bulk, recovery, ways to boost speed and both offenses, had Psychic Fangs last gen which is perfectly workable STAB, as well as its many special options and support pool, which includes Dual Screens. Probably not right now.

 

[Jonbot]

Maaaaaaybe? Could be an idea worth testing

I’m sorry but wtf. It’s not locked into an item. Great stats across the board. Fast enough to out speed almost everything and swords dance with a good move pool. As someone who barely plays ou anymore, no

 

[Ibaragi]

I am going to state the perhaps controversial opinion that this meta has actually improved with every ban we have done!
(...)
I firmly believe the path forward to a better meta lies with MORE bans, not less, and no unbans.

Agree with both the first statement, the part of the post I skipped and the spirit of the last statement.
That said, I do believe there's some value on retesting things that have been banned in the past; bans are a "last resort" measure to balance a tier and while they should be done as much as necessary, making efforts to attain a balanced state of OU with the fewest number of bans possible is a positive tendency to maintain. I still agree that most/all banned threats should stay banned and that we should've banned a few more if possible, but "trying and testing" is important, although with the caveat that action to correct these attempts if they go wrong should be swift and decisive: for mons that have been banned until recently, an early quickban will always be better than early suspects, much more waiting weeks/months for "the meta to stabilize".

______________

Maaaaaaybe? Could be an idea worth testing

OK, I had no intention of entertaining any of these "we should unban X or Y traditionally Ubers mon", but this is just such a crack-filled take I can't but point out how flawed it is; and I wrote on the survey that even Flutter Mane may deserve a second chance (at least if mons like Firepon, Zama-C or Ursaluna-BM get freed, Flutter Mane doesn't sound so crazy... although all should stay banned really).

Normal Zacian was BANNED FROM UBERS in Gen 8. Not INTO ubers, FROM Ubers into AG. She's also one of the top 3 mons in Ubers UU, and I'd even dare say a short- to mid-term candidate to get suspected for a ban (depending on how fond Ubers UU people are of banning things). Thinking that a mon that was too good for Ubers a hot second ago, and present-time may be too good for the tier right above us in power level is REMOTELY ok is a mindset that can only be achieved through the abuse of dangerous substances, a recent concussive impact and/or severe insomnia. Please do take care of yourself.

 

[kstiemsma]

please no. this thing is running rampant in uubers. the only thing that actually reliably beats it is dondozo because it turns out that ground tera blast is horrifyingly good coverage on fairy-types.

i feel like dropping zamazenta, although ultimately the right move, has set a bad precedent where everything that's bad in ubers is now subject to discussion about drops despite them being ridiculous by ou standards. worse, people also seem to be conflating "directly outclassed in ubers" with "bad in ubers". yes, zacian is never used in ubers because zacian-crowned is a direct upgrade. yes, no one uses solgaleo because dusk mane is better in every desirable way. that doesn't make them acceptable in ou and the fact that box legendaries are entering into the discussion this frequently is troubling

strongly agree. ppl don't seem to understand the fundamental difference between dropping things that are just Ubers by tiering and things that are Ubers bc they have 700 BST. To drop one of the latter you need to prove it has severe limitations, because without a baseline power level of ~600 BST like we've had for the last nine generations there is no point in not just retiering to call Ubers the new OU.

Gen 8 ZamaC had literally zero moves and was still just such a fat sponge it could soak anything. Gen 9 Zam-H is only held in check by other broken mons, and KyuB was limited by no physical Ice STAB when it was legal. Solgaleo has none of those restrictions, it has an amazing stat spread as well as a wide and diverse movepool. If shit like this with 700 BST is appropriate for the power level of the tier, then it needs to continue to be taken down several notches.

If people want to play with these monstrosities then thats literally what Ubers UU is for, please go there instead of cluttering up this thread when you (hopefully) havent even played against ZamaC in OU, which is a much worse mon than Solgaleo and still completely overwhelmed a much more powerful version of OU.

 

[Finchinator]

To me, this brief DLC1 period was a practice in trying to improve things in a fast fashion to meet community demand. I think the ceiling for the future, longer-standing metagame is higher than DLC1 simply because we will have more time and resources.

I do not think this current metagame is all bad -- I quite liked teambuilding by the end and even for the last month or so now. I will say there are some parts of the tier that are lame such as the Static/Hurricane variance of Zapdos, the Tera Fairy Kingambit late games, and the Spikes dynamic, but I think handling all of these alongside the various other matters the community deemed more pressing in such an abbreviated period between September and December was impossible from an optics/timeline perspective. I actually enjoyed this stretch at the end of the day and for that I am thankful.

I will be less present for the next few days besides a few big posts logging my teams and sets from the SCL, which was the biggest DLC1 tournament in OU, and then I will ramp up again as DLC2 comes to PS and our new metagame starts! Excited for this.

 

[arnimacarni]

 

[JunkoAJ]

Normal Zacian was BANNED FROM UBERS in Gen 8. Not INTO ubers, FROM Ubers into AG.

While I don't really think it could be OU I just had a funny thought in my brain, this point is completely irrelevant, I'm tired of people bringing up past gens esp because it's not used in Ubers now (obviously very good in Ubers UU like I said already I didn't look into that meta)

 

[Eeveeto]

On the survey I put 1 to almost every Mon. Only Sneasler and Zamazenta-C I put like 3, all the others are so broken that there is 0 point in giving them a chance (would put 0 to Annihilape if given the option to do so).

Solgaleo looks broken too. Not a single set, but the fact it's so versatile and can remove the Psychic type with Tera. Can be a Band user, LO + Morning Sun, Stored Power or even a slow pivot with Teleport (this is arguably healthy though).

 

[Ibaragi]

While I don't really think it could be OU I just had a funny thought in my brain, this point is completely irrelevant, I'm tired of people bringing up past gens esp because it's not used in Ubers now (obviously very good in Ubers UU like I said already I didn't look into that meta)

intrusive thought, fair enough.
As for why Zacian isn't used in ubers, it's because Zacian-C isn't banned, and can't run both at the same time. Literally the only reason.
I was a rather prolific ladder player for Gen 8 Ubers for a while (peaked Top 60, although for a short time); I assure you I know how broken Zacian on both of her forms were on that format and it wasn't a random comment from a quick search to her tier legality status. Don't take that comment as an argument, but more as a display of traumatic memories.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

View attachment 578656

well, you got me there, i do like whatshername. y'know, caramel or carburetor or carl or whatever she's called. carpet? carkol? chicken carmesan? something like that

I will be less present for the next few days besides a few big posts logging my teams and sets from the SCL, which was the biggest DLC1 tournament in OU, and then I will ramp up again as DLC2 comes to PS and our new metagame starts! Excited for this.

you have absolutely earned a mini-vacation. hell, you deserve a full vacation for how much effort you and the council have been putting into ou this generation, both in terms of tiering and in terms of managing the community in general—community outreach, compiling statistics and survey results, the viability rankings, and all the other things you do that the ou community wouldn't be the same without. we appreciate you immensely

 

[pika pal]

View attachment 578656

I can sympathize with preferring her to Punch me in the face over an unbanned Palafin or Annihilape.


Jokes aside I'm not of the opinion there's any Pokemon worth trying to retest into launch-DLC2 Meta, simply because even pending new/returning Meta stuff like the TMs, Tera revisit, new Paradoxes, and some old Legends, there's the elephant in the room of Gholdengo, who broken or not is undoubtedly a Meta-defining Pokemon and staying or going would massively impact several mons/playstyles. We already mentioned Gliscor, but I also imagine Gholdengo heavily influences the usability of several Fairy Pokemon and hampers Ice as a coverage option (see free-entry on the already-questionable Ice Spinner Tusk) which could give Roaring Moon more rampage room, for an extreme example.

Given how Volatile DLC-Metas become and the impact many of the bans had as well, I feel like we need to sort out what OU even is before trying to reintroduce things. Several of the banned Pokemon like Palafin, Ogerpon-Hearth, Ursa-Blood, and Baxcalibur weren't really banned because they matched into a limping Meta, they just kind of bowl over most of the game roster by numbers and thus aren't likely to be fixed by a few checks or a hypothetical environment shift. Others like Gliscor, Lando-I, and maybe even Darkrai COULD be argued to fit into a stable Gen 9 OU, but we're not getting anywhere near that before late January at the absolute-most-optimistic even with the most rapid tiering action.

Gen 9 is a Jenga Tower of a balancing act at the moment, and if we're really debating removing a piece in the foundation (as I would regard something as ridiculously Good as Gold/Ghold), we should address that before trying to add more new blocks.

 

[YubelVT]

Maaaaaaybe? Could be funny

No absolutely not. As flawed as my Reshiram idea is, at least it has a meh speed tier. Zacian has an amazing speed tier, amazing offenses, amazing movepool, and Intrepid Sword. Yes the ability is nerfed, but any form of Zacian being viable means Ditto is viable as opposed to niche due to quite possibly the DUMBEST interaction in the entire game. You clicked SD on zacian? Welp congrats on losing because that ditto is now +3 or +4 with scarf zacian speed tier.

 

[SittinGamer]

Obviously, it isn't the same metagame, but Zacian is already debatably proving itself too high-end for UUbers, and likely only started there because you by definition can't use both forms in one team.

 

[Magcargo]

On the survey I put 1 to almost every Mon. Only Sneasler and Zamazenta-C I put like 3, all the others are so broken that there is 0 point in giving them a chance (would put 0 to Annihilape if given the option to do so).

Solgaleo looks broken too. Not a single set, but the fact it's so versatile and can remove the Psychic type with Tera. Can be a Band user, LO + Morning Sun, Stored Power or even a slow pivot with Teleport (this is arguably healthy though).

Blud doesn't even get Stored Power though. Neither does Lugia.

 

[Welcome to mars]

the sun kitty would make a good defensive mon, but it can easily be OUs most obnoxious crit me sweeper or use its bulk for free set up and then send the enemy team into the litter box, demon mew will be back, you killed the man, not the idea

Maaaaaaybe? Could be funny

are you crazy

 

[TR_Admin]

Bulky Attackers Stats comparison:

At 50 base speed, Solgaleo would potentially drop to UU.

Anyways, Solgaleo isn't a meta warping threat like other stuff we have (and we can just quick ban it), there should be enough counterplay like:
- Bulky waters
- Birds if Solgaleo doesn't click the one coverage move (Stone Edge/Flare Blitz)
- Bulky steels have to watch out for coverage but can easily take the Stabs
-
- The new Paradox pokemon in dlc2 also resist steel (except Terrakion)
- Faster pokemon that OHKO like

 

[apoteosis]

Bulky Attackers Stats comparison:
View attachment 578682
At 50 base speed, Solgaleo would potentially drop to UU.

Anyways, Solgaleo isn't a meta warping threat like other stuff we have (and we can just quick ban it), there should be enough counterplay like:
- Bulky waters
- Birds if Solgaleo doesn't click the one coverage move (Stone Edge/Flare Blitz)
- Bulky steels have to watch out for coverage but can easily take the Stabs
-
- The new Paradox pokemon in dlc2 also resist steel (except Terrakion)
- Faster pokemon that OHKO like

lol iron hands has more bulk and can actually boost its atk
pls give solgaleo a chance. At the very least it will be a good futureport SR pivot

 

[Welcome to mars]

normally i would be fine with letting potentially broken back into the ou tier just to test the waters since the early meta is better of chaotic than boring, but zacian hero is not a real debate and neither is chi yu, im surprised chi yu doesn’t have enough usage to be a regular uber because its a lethal wallbreaker that pairs well with koraidon even if its not good, it shouldn’t have less ubers usage than annihilape and is going to ruin bulky offense, balance, semi stall and big stall if let back in, zacian hero needed NERFS because it was so busted like its true form, i know this was brought up because the guy thought it would be fun and chaotic, but it wouldn’t, zacian winning turn one because you picked ting lu as yo spiker isn’t fun, its flat out boring and is everything that we strive for ou not to be

well, you got me there, i do like whatshername. y'know, caramel or carburetor or carl or whatever she's called. carpet? carkol? chicken carmesan? something like that

what did you say

 

[`ShadowTwo]

To me, this brief DLC1 period was a practice in trying to improve things in a fast fashion to meet community demand. I think the ceiling for the future, longer-standing metagame is higher than DLC1 simply because we will have more time and resources.

I do not think this current metagame is all bad -- I quite liked teambuilding by the end and even for the last month or so now. I will say there are some parts of the tier that are lame such as the Static/Hurricane variance of Zapdos, the Tera Fairy Kingambit late games, and the Spikes dynamic, but I think handling all of these alongside the various other matters the community deemed more pressing in such an abbreviated period between September and December was impossible from an optics/timeline perspective. I actually enjoyed this stretch at the end of the day and for that I am thankful.

I will be less present for the next few days besides a few big posts logging my teams and sets from the SCL, which was the biggest DLC1 tournament in OU, and then I will ramp up again as DLC2 comes to PS and our new metagame starts! Excited for this.

What is your votes for the last survey?

 

[FayaWizard]

Bulky Attackers Stats comparison:
View attachment 578682
At 50 base speed, Solgaleo would potentially drop to UU.

Anyways, Solgaleo isn't a meta warping threat like other stuff we have (and we can just quick ban it), there should be enough counterplay like:
- Bulky waters
- Birds if Solgaleo doesn't click the one coverage move (Stone Edge/Flare Blitz)
- Bulky steels have to watch out for coverage but can easily take the Stabs
-
- The new Paradox pokemon in dlc2 also resist steel (except Terrakion)
- Faster pokemon that OHKO like

Knock cripples the birds, the bulky waters, and dirge

Flare Blitz allows it to nuke the steels

Faster pokemon have to switch in after a mon is nuked, and most can't ohko, allowing Solgaleo to potentially steal another kill

132 SpA Iron Moth Fiery Dance vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Solgaleo: 282-332 (58.9 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Solgaleo: 360-426 (75.3 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Solgaleo: 368-434 (76.9 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And god forbid it tera fairies, flips every matchup, and blows up your team.

EDIT: The weavile calc is wrong oops banded knock has a 31% chance to OHKO from full with item

 

[Finchinator]

What is your votes for the last survey?

I am abstaining this time around as I am on leave of absence until the 13/14th; Ruft is handling the posting of the survey in my leave, too. Sorry for no response, will be back to normal from me next time

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Knock cripples the birds, the bulky waters, and dirge

Flare Blitz allows it to nuke the steels

Faster pokemon have to switch in after a mon is nuked, and none can ohko, allowing Solgaleo to potentially steal another kill

252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Solgaleo: 284-336 (59.4 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
132 SpA Iron Moth Fiery Dance vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Solgaleo: 282-332 (58.9 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Solgaleo: 360-426 (75.3 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Solgaleo: 368-434 (76.9 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And god forbid it tera fairies, flips every matchup, and blows up your team.

The Weavile Calc is wrong, just to point out

252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Solgaleo: 422-500 (88.2 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

 

[apoteosis]

Knock cripples the birds, the bulky waters, and dirge

Flare Blitz allows it to nuke the steels

Faster pokemon have to switch in after a mon is nuked, and none can ohko, allowing Solgaleo to potentially steal another kill

252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Solgaleo: 284-336 (59.4 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
132 SpA Iron Moth Fiery Dance vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Solgaleo: 282-332 (58.9 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Solgaleo: 360-426 (75.3 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Solgaleo: 368-434 (76.9 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And god forbid it tera fairies, flips every matchup, and blows up your team.

Could you please stop cherry-picking calcs?
Thats why I hate them.
First of all, your knock-off calc is wrong lol
Why on earth your iron moth would have 132 SpA EVs?
Why Solgaleo should have full HP EVs, since you can't boost your atk and it's slow as hell?

Anyways, I hate calcs. But at least, be honest and publish the "real calcs", not only the ones you like.

 

[FayaWizard]

Could you please stop cherry-picking calcs?
Thats why I hate them.
First of all, your knock-off calc is wrong lol
Why on earth your iron moth would have 132 SpA EVs?
Why Solgaleo should have full HP EVs, since you can't boost your atk and it's slow as hell?

Anyways, I hate calcs. But at least, be honest and publish the "real calcs", not only the ones you like.

Solgaleo has full hp evs because it's not outspeeding anything with it's 50 base speed and would rather invest that in its hp to absorb a hit
Moth has 132 spattack because that's the most common set, speed booster. Even without it, 252 SpA Quark Drive Iron Moth Fiery Dance vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Solgaleo: 396-468 (82.8 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[TR_Admin]

Knock cripples the birds, the bulky waters, and dirge

Flare Blitz allows it to nuke the steels

Faster pokemon have to switch in after a mon is nuked, and none can ohko, allowing Solgaleo to potentially steal another kill

252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Solgaleo: 284-336 (59.4 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
132 SpA Iron Moth Fiery Dance vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Solgaleo: 282-332 (58.9 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Solgaleo: 360-426 (75.3 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Solgaleo: 368-434 (76.9 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And god forbid it tera fairies, flips every matchup, and blows up your team.

Solgaleo doesn't hit harder than the other bulky attackers and steel isn't hard to switch in, I listed the counters above. We don't even know if it keeps knock or loses it like lando.

0+ Atk Choice Band Iron Hands Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rillaboom: 309-364 (90.6 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rillaboom: 322-379 (94.4 - 111.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Solgaleo Sunsteel Strike vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rillaboom: 306-360 (89.7 - 105.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO