Annihilape is definitely one I can only see getting banned if tera stays in OU. Without tera it's a punishment for sloppy turns, especially stuff like pivot spamming, that can be checked pretty easily by a special super effective move. But as it stands now it's a pretty good abuser of terastalizing like a lot of other set up sweepers, it's just that Annihilape punishes you even more for guessing the type wrong.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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Um, No most Special def walls can't wall Chi Yu, the most common sets are scarf and specs neither of which have a problem with unaware mons. Max HP Max Special Def Clodsire is 3HKO'd by SCARF Chi Yu
252 SpA Chi-Yu Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 178-210 (38.3 - 45.2%) --3HKO
252 SpA Chi-Yu Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 169-199 (33.5 - 39.4%) -- 3HKO
252 SpA Chi-Yu Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 189-223 (26.4 - 31.2%) -- 4HKO
252 SpA Chi-Yu Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 144-171 (36 - 42.7%) -- 3HKO
252 SpA Chi-Yu Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dragonite: 135-159 (34.9 - 41.1%) --3HKO
252 SpA Chi-Yu Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl: 139-165 (34.4 - 40.8%) -- 3HKO
252 SpA Chi-Yu Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ting-Lu: 154-183 (29.9 - 35.6%) -- 4HKO
Imagine thinking fully invested special walls being 3HKO'd by a scarf mon means they "wall" Chi Yu.
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I would recommend something like a bulky or fast sticky webber to truly enable Quaquaval to sweep, it is really good under webs actually and it makes its job easier. I saw someone running Quaval with webs and I thought why has no one done this before.Stumbled into a bit of a teambuilding/laddering block since the waters got banned, but I've still been having some fun trying to figure out the meta a bit and playing with some of the more unorthodox new mons. Namely, this chonky dude right here.
(how metal is that)
Wo-Chien is appealing for a lot of reasons despite some glaring weaknesses. On one hand, dedicating a slot to a specially defensive mon on Balance/BO that doesn't offer hazards or removal and has nightmares about Chi-Yu feels very constraining. However, I've found that it offers a deceptively large amount of utility against offense, with the ability to remove boots, provide consistent chip with leech seed, and even spread paralysis on would-be switch-ins like Chi-Yu, Chien-Pao, and Corviknight. It also provides a surprising amount of support in breaking defensive cores that rely on recovery moves due to Taunt and its relatively high speed tier for a defensive mon.
This is the set I've been running:
View attachment 469487
Wo-Chien @ Leftovers
Ability: Tablets of Ruin
Tera Type: Ghost/Poison/Fairy/Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 28 Def / 228 SpD
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Stun Spore/Giga Drain
- Leech Seed
- Taunt
These are pretty much the expected options for this thing, but I'll talk a bit about them in order. First, the tera types this thing can run really are crazy. People have commented in this thread and the tera-policy thread about how tera allows your defensive cores to feel resilient and customisable in way that's really cool. As such, the best type depends on whatever you need this thing to be able to take a hit from and Knock Off/Taunt in return. I think you can even add Water or Fighting to the list, though the main things I've wanted were a Bug resist and either a Fairy or Fighting resist. Embarassingly, I forgot where the EVs come from but I believe I wanted it to take a certain hit on the special side so I'm just sticking with this, a more mixed or physically bulky set might proove better.
Ok, so the elephant in the room is Stun Spore. I know, 75% accuracy feels really bad, but I pretty much only click this on the switch when I know I have a defensive answer to the incoming pokemon. But there are really a lot of things that feel great to be para'd that love to come in on this thing. Chi-Yu, Iron Moth, Volcarona, Chien-Pao, Annihilape, Roaring Moon. I really think that coming in on more passive pokemon or resists and para'ing key offensive mons that switch-in to deal with it is the key to whatever limited viability the snail can claim.
I also mentioned that there are some pretty heavy teambuilding constraints that this thing imposes on two fronts. First, it takes a slot for a defensive mon without playing the hazard game (though it can be argued that playing around Gholdengo, knocking off boots, and taunting setters/defoggers counts) and second, 2 kinds of relatively specific support.
The first, as has been discussed in this thread at length, is harder to come by, and that is a Chi-Yu switch-in. And the second is pretty easy and helpful to slot on a team, which is a way to punish U-Turn.
I'll quickly go over some partners that I've tried to accomplish these purposes:
View attachment 469493- SpDef rocks has been getting love but Great Tusk usage is way up recently, I also tried Band and Specs, which were surprisingly effective.
View attachment 469494-I didn't give this one a ton of time but AV seemed promising. Banded can be a one-time switch and appreciates paralysis, though.
Quaquaval - AV has been underwhelming. Fast isn't bulky enough and bulky isn't fast or strong enough. It getting spin is cute though.
View attachment 469498- As others have mentioned, this thing is the star player of balance. U-Turn/Defog sets in particular mess with Gholdengo hazards, and can bring in Wo-Chien on the cheesetick to do its thing with Knock, Seeds, or Para. Rocky Helmet can quickly wears down U-turners including opposing Corvs.
View attachment 469501- On the builds I tried that were more BO, this thing was impressive. Max HP + Speed is thriving this meta but I'll give a quick shout to Full Special Attacker with Draco/Fireblast/EQ/Spikes or SR and tera Fire.
Overall, I've had a lot of fun building and playing with this guy. I don't think it's very good in the grand scheme of things. It suffers from passivity, team building challenges, and often taking the tera slot from its teammates. However, the things it accomplishes against opposing balance squads, in addition to scoring some potentially key Knocks and Paras against offense are actually really valuable and isn't something any other single pokemon can really claim to do. Definitely recommend trying it out, and perhaps a better balance builder than me can make something truly disgusting with it.
Oh wait its because Masquerain is the only pokemon that can make use of sticky web never mind. Probably would be better on HO or BO
This is a bit misleading. You have to use fireblast for scarf vs clodsire because the reality is for flamethrower and dark pulse it doesn't threaten clodsire at all. Only modest chiyu with specs can threaten clodsire with flamethrower, otherwise you're relying on fireblast spam and never missing. Even then scarf chi-yu just doesn't threaten clodsire really outside of sun from my experience in showdown.
Don't know how you did your calcs but that's fine:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 219-258 (47.1 - 55.6%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Above is Modest Choice Specs Chi-Yu and based on the calculation it has a 17% chance of 2HKO including (Which is your best case scenario LOL) hitting Fire Blast multiple times consecutively. Since my post was referencing more the Nasty Plot set lets just go stick with the Choice Specs (Modest) Chi-Yu argument.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 193-228 (27.4 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Ouch. Looks like above it actually does get walled by Chansey.
I mean I did my calcs with Scarf not Specs, my Chi yu was timid. and chancey isn't seeing any play right now, so the only thing really able to take hits is ttar in the current meta.
Vaporeon is bad and requiring multiple pokemon just to check chi yu is telling of how broken it is
Meowscarada is good
I was incorrect about the tera fighting being prominent, i had LC on the brain.
I also want to say that your thinking for #2 (if you have a speedy physical mon with a super effective move, well...) is extremely flawed. Sure, many mons outspeed it, but it can just switch out of a bad matchup?? Nothing is stopping it from picking a kill and then when the revenger switches in Chi-Yu switches out into a check to said revenger. Pursuit was a great fix to this (altho Chi resists it anyway) and Gamefreak removed it. Scientists are still trying to figure out why GF would do such a thing.
Might as well address some other things people have said:
I overestimated how bad TTar is in the meta. I still don't think it's the best pokemon, as it does get throttled by our top threats (minus guppy) and lets in the guerilla ghost gorilla for free, but shutting down Sun is huge for it.
MY CALCS ARE WRONG ! i forgor that EVs actually change your stats.
Chi-Yu actually does more damage than what is posted, and my goof proves even further that guppy should go.
#chiyuisbusted
Timid chi-yu with scarf doesn't threaten clodsire, maybe with overheat or a lucky crit. Vaporeon and sylveon, although they aren't seeing much play, can also wall it.
Aside from that, people are pretty much ignoring that half the tier is dragons or dark types currently. You swap in chomp and they hit it with flamethrower as modest specs and take half its health, now what? You get outsped and have to leave. You can be timid scarf but if you go that route you will not be able to kill clodsire at all under normal circumstances.
Speaking of convoluted magic plans, im gonna try the most anti meta playstyle right now, Psyquic Terrain, hear me out
1) we have a ton of priority going around from multiple sources
2) he have iron future mons that benefit from electric terrain (and booster energy limits their attemps of sweeping
I feel like we have something underexplored and even tho in wont be succesfull, i wanna be the first anyways
Indeedee (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Healing Wish
- Dazzling Gleam
- Psyshock
- Shadow Ball
heres what im planning, scarf hits 476 speed, based on the speed tier resources, it outspeeds a considerable amount of mons, one of them being jolly Chien pao, also for some reason i outspeed Jolly/timid dragapult, damm bro and with this speed, i can basically put some support via revenge killing or killing myself, im going to cook, ill eventually write the results
Yes it does threaten clod. Dark Pulse is a 3HKO 99.8% of the time with terra Dark and Dark Pulse has a 20% chance to flinch. If clod comes in on a Dark Pulse you have a 20% chance to flinch it on the 2nd Dark Pulse, preventing the recovery and ensuring the KO on the next hit. Keep in mind this is talking about Max Spdef Clod, Phys def clod takes a lot more.
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And then,chomp switches in again, takes spikes damage,gets killed next turn, now every time Chi comes in it gets a kill.
Respectfully, You don't need to be mega rayquaza levels of power to be busted in OU;
The fact that half the tier is dragons and darks and Chi-YU still gets a kill everytime it switches in should be telling of how busted it is.
I'm not sure if you're factoring in leftover recovery.
252 SpA Chi-Yu Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Clodsire: 129-153 (27.8 - 32.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
I got this by taking .75 of clodsires max special def, which is 328 and then 246 after the reduction from chi-yu.
Sorry, I meant with terra dark for that calc but Fire Blast does 3HKO with scarf timid without terra. I will edit that post.
See I can see this working because that's what the Metagame is currently missing is Psychic Surge and there are a lot of priority moves being thrown like you said. The only thing I would say is definitely have Trick for one of the move-slots. But yeah don't be telling anyone your secrets because this is lowkey fire.
I thought most people used specs
Heres the plan, you steal the idea from me, do it faster and get to high ladder, because im too bad at the game to do so, i just finished building a BO psyquic sand, here i can give it to yo--- wait why is the police outside my house oh no no no no no aaaaaaaaaaaa
What sets are you running with him? I love Kingambit, but I think his greatest strength is how easily he wins games with a well timed Tera. Outside of that, he's good to great, but not amazing.
(I'd very much LOVE to be wrong about this since it's literally my fave mon lol).
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I don't know what Finch is running but I run this set and I've had pretty good luck with it thus far. I usually run Dark Tera Type for that additional boost in combination with Black Glasses. I think this set is pretty standard (To my knowledge). You can also run Stealth Rock variant to throw off your opponent.
Kingambit @ Black Glasses
Ability: Supreme Overlord
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Kowtow Cleave
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
- Swords Dance
Ability: Supreme Overlord
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Kowtow Cleave
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
- Swords Dance
I'm rocking the rocks set myself. One day I might just run a fully defensive set with Twave just to screw with people lol.
Kingambit @ Leftovers
Ability: Supreme Overlord
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Thunder Wave
- Sucker Punch
- Protect/Kowtow Cleave/Iron Head
More seriously, I picked out Protect here because I felt like the leftovers recovery is well appreciated. Also checks for sudden fighting coverage ruining you day. It's still a silly set, but I'm sure you can find use with it.
Also even uninvested Kowtow Cleave/Sucker hits like a truck esp after some Supreme Overlord boosts.
I don't think Shed Tail is the issue, it's the full kit of Cyclizar. The mon has just about everything going for it besides an offensive profile, but it enables completely degenerate builds. I really don't think a suspect is necessary on this one.
Shit ruining the meta right now:
Cyclizar - Cyclizar screens is the most brain dead bullshit since full baton pass (wow I wonder why!) The mental gymnastics required to think dry passing should be banned but regen sub passing should be allowed is hilarious.
Gholdengo - The strain this thing puts on the builder is insane. Good as Gold is probably the most broken ability we've seen in pokemon. Insane movepool, great stats, great typing. But yeah garchomp/glimmora + gholdengo really requires you to build in contrived ways. I've heard a lot of "we don't want a repeat of gen8ou in gen9ou" in regards to tera, but if you really don't want that, Gholdengo needs to go. Similar to gen6ou Sableye, it's hard to say it's outright broken, but man does it enable the shittest play.
Chi-Yu - Games can turn on their heads just by guessing scarf or specs wrong. Boots + taunt is amazing set as well, and can be abuse tera fantastically. The few high spdef mons worth considering in SV don't resist it's coverage and those that do just get blown through anyways. Max spdef ting lu is quite literally the only thing keeping the tier from being run through by this thing.
Cyclizar - Cyclizar screens is the most brain dead bullshit since full baton pass (wow I wonder why!) The mental gymnastics required to think dry passing should be banned but regen sub passing should be allowed is hilarious.
Gholdengo - The strain this thing puts on the builder is insane. Good as Gold is probably the most broken ability we've seen in pokemon. Insane movepool, great stats, great typing. But yeah garchomp/glimmora + gholdengo really requires you to build in contrived ways. I've heard a lot of "we don't want a repeat of gen8ou in gen9ou" in regards to tera, but if you really don't want that, Gholdengo needs to go. Similar to gen6ou Sableye, it's hard to say it's outright broken, but man does it enable the shittest play.
Chi-Yu - Games can turn on their heads just by guessing scarf or specs wrong. Boots + taunt is amazing set as well, and can be abuse tera fantastically. The few high spdef mons worth considering in SV don't resist it's coverage and those that do just get blown through anyways. Max spdef ting lu is quite literally the only thing keeping the tier from being run through by this thing.
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I’m surprised there hasn’t been more discussion on Dragonite. I’ve been using the DD Tera normal Extreme Speed set on Gholdengo hazards stack and it’s one of the most brainless sets I’ve used in OU since I started playing in gen 5.
With HDB and multiscale it’s essentially guaranteed at least one DD. Dragon/Flying is a good defensive typing that gives it a lot of setup opportunities and you can always Tera if your opponent looks like they’re going to throw out a super effective move as you set up so getting two DD is often doable.
There’s surprisingly little that wants to take a +1 or +2 STAB Espeed late game. Fire Punch and Earthquake cover most Espeed resists and with a little bit of chip to the right one or two Pokémon coupled with hazards (which are easier to keep than ever) Espeed can more than easily clean.
I’ve often found myself checking opposing Dragonite with my own which is usually a symptom of an unhealthy metagame. I know there a certainly viable mons that can manage Dragonite (eg Unaware bros) but I overall find it just as unhealthy as Chien-Pao and Chi-Yuh because of how easy and brainless using it is. I know that Tera and/or Gholdengo may be eventually banned and are arguably the real problem here, but as it stands right now I find it hard to believe all three should be present in the metagame as time progresses.
Dragonite @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Multiscale
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Earthquake
- Fire Punch
Ability: Multiscale
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Earthquake
- Fire Punch
With HDB and multiscale it’s essentially guaranteed at least one DD. Dragon/Flying is a good defensive typing that gives it a lot of setup opportunities and you can always Tera if your opponent looks like they’re going to throw out a super effective move as you set up so getting two DD is often doable.
There’s surprisingly little that wants to take a +1 or +2 STAB Espeed late game. Fire Punch and Earthquake cover most Espeed resists and with a little bit of chip to the right one or two Pokémon coupled with hazards (which are easier to keep than ever) Espeed can more than easily clean.
I’ve often found myself checking opposing Dragonite with my own which is usually a symptom of an unhealthy metagame. I know there a certainly viable mons that can manage Dragonite (eg Unaware bros) but I overall find it just as unhealthy as Chien-Pao and Chi-Yuh because of how easy and brainless using it is. I know that Tera and/or Gholdengo may be eventually banned and are arguably the real problem here, but as it stands right now I find it hard to believe all three should be present in the metagame as time progresses.
Most people use scarf unless they have additional support from something like sticky web/trick room or they really hate stall, in that case they run specs.
alephgalactus
Banned deucer.
I’m encountering more and more people running Specs Chi-Yu, especially with Cyclizar/Grimmsnarl support. The damn thing has no switch-ins and it’s becoming a serious problem.
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