Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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Thank you for putting into words what I've been trying to get across for weeks. So many people here and in the OU chatroom are completely unwilling to hear that their beloved braindead HO is ruining the meta, as evidenced by the amount of laugh reacts on people's posts who criticize it but a distinct lack of arguments in favour of the meta as it stands right now.

The meta right now is awful, and if you're not seeing it, you're not looking hard enough. Balance and Bulky Offense suck ass right now, that's pretty much indisputable.
That's not why people are reacting with laughs. The posts getting those reactions are also going off on anti-tera rants, when the results from the actual suspect test showed that outright banning terastalization is incredibly unpopular.

Multiple people came out and stated that their preference was tera preview, but they voted No Action because they thought that Ban would have the most support - enough to swing the result, given how close the voting was. Why? Because the Ban supporters were emphatic, posted frequently, and all backed each other up, despite actually being only a very small number.

Now we have people claiming the meta is RUINED FOREVER and that we need to Ban Tera! to fix it, but look at the last couple surveys and what do you see? The community as a whole had a positive view on the tier. Maybe that's changed now that Orthworm and Shed Tail have really taken off in popularity (and Shed Tail really does seem to be widely unpopular, I've seen 'not broken' arguments but nobody endorsing it as something they enjoy), but the latest evidence suggests that once again it's a vocal minority raising complaints, while most players are silent and content.
 
disclaimer: I’m actually enjoying the meta, but it is statistically lacking diversity. You can’t have a good team without tusk/gambit or basically other Pokémon’s with a good profile on both sides of the offensive/defensive coin.

1. Shed tail ban
2. Tera restriction: show Tera types at team preview

these two simple steps will help make the meta fun whilst having an interesting compromise.

- removing shed tail takes away the opportunity for roaring moon and other sweepers to get a free turn

- restricting Tera by forcing all info to be declared at preview also takes away the 50/50’s when trying to check key offensive threats.

it might even be enough to bring back espathra, since you’ll know her Tera type at preview and which check you want to keep healthy. I.e. you’re not flipping a coin on whether your turn was completely wasted switching in gholdengo in anticipation of Tera fighting or fairy, only to see Tera fire and immediately lose the game.

I think the other banned threats are harder to salvage tho
 
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i will literally bet you $100 right now that if we took a survey there would be more people in favor of a shed tail ban than against it
Probably! I'd vote to ban Shed Tail myself - you can check my comment history, I've been in favor of nuking the move rather than just Cyclizar from the beginning.

I even pointed out that Shed Tail specifically is unpopular, though, so I'm not sure what kind of 'gotcha' this is supposed to be.
 
Probably! I'd vote to ban Shed Tail myself - you can check my comment history, I've been in favor of nuking the move rather than just Cyclizar from the beginning.

I even pointed out that Shed Tail specifically is unpopular, though, so I'm not sure what kind of 'gotcha' this is supposed to be.
my dumb ass thought you were referring to shed tail as the thing you said a vocal minority was complaining about when in fact it was tera. give me a break, i'm sleep-deprived and possibly sick

as for the possibility of unbanning espathra when (not if) shed tail goes, no. i've seen sub sets work in the absence of shed tail just as easily
 
disclaimer: I’m actually enjoying the meta, but it is statistically lacking diversity. You can’t have a good team without tusk/gambit or basically other Pokémon’s with a good profile on both sides of the offensive/defensive coin.

1. Shed tail ban
2. Tera restriction: show Tera types at team preview

these two simple steps will help make the meta fun whilst having an interesting compromise.

- removing shed tail takes away the opportunity for roaring moon and other sweepers to get a free turn

- restricting Tera by forcing all info to be declared at preview also takes away the 50/50’s when trying to check key offensive threats.

it might even be enough to bring back espathra, since you’ll know her Tera type at preview and which check you want to keep healthy. I.e. you’re not flipping a coin on whether your turn was completely wasted switching in gholdengo in anticipation of Tera fighting or fairy, only to see Tera fire and immediately lose the game.

I think the other banned threats are harder to salvage tho
I don't think the Tera Preview will bring Espathra back to OU, when it was legal it was almost always played in Tera Fairy, with a few Fire variants, so we already knew what type it would turn into. Tera Preview won't change the power of his Stored Power + Speed Boost + Calm Mind combo in any way
 
disclaimer: I’m actually enjoying the meta, but it is statistically lacking diversity. You can’t have a good team without tusk/gambit or basically other Pokémon’s with a good profile on both sides of the offensive/defensive coin.

1. Shed tail ban
2. Tera restriction: show Tera types at team preview

these two simple steps will help make the meta fun whilst having an interesting compromise.

- removing shed tail takes away the opportunity for roaring moon and other sweepers to get a free turn

- restricting Tera by forcing all info to be declared at preview also takes away the 50/50’s when trying to check key offensive threats.

it might even be enough to bring back espathra, since you’ll know her Tera type at preview and which check you want to keep healthy. I.e. you’re not flipping a coin on whether your turn was completely wasted switching in gholdengo in anticipation of Tera fighting or fairy, only to see Tera fire and immediately lose the game.

I think the other banned threats are harder to salvage tho
There has been one idea I've had that I don't see anyone else bringing up, but I'm not sure if it'd be popular.

What I propose is:

Calling Out Your Tera.

If you click Tera, and after a prompt of "Are you sure?" probably, using the code for a Turn it prints that the opponent is about to Terastilize this turn.

Any input from the opponent is discarded, and then you continue that turn as normal, with the Tera called out.

I feel like this solution would irk some, and I'm not gonna make a hill to climb on, but thoughts on the idea of Calling Tera? (Likely with Tera Preview)
 
There has been one idea I've had that I don't see anyone else bringing up, but I'm not sure if it'd be popular.

What I propose is:

Calling Out Your Tera.

If you click Tera, and after a prompt of "Are you sure?" probably, using the code for a Turn it prints that the opponent is about to Terastilize this turn.

Any input from the opponent is discarded, and then you continue that turn as normal, with the Tera called out.

I feel like this solution would irk some, and I'm not gonna make a hill to climb on, but thoughts on the idea of Calling Tera? (Likely with Tera Preview)
As much as I love this website, it's tiering system, OU rules, and some custom effects on showdown like the ones for sleep/freeze clauses, I am a complete purist on keeping the game mechanics as identical to the games as possible, at least in the regular tiers. If you want to have OMs with severely altered mechanics, that's fine, but I think most of us would prefer to keep paying tribute to these games, to keep simulating them just as they are.
 
As much as I love this website, it's tiering system, OU rules, and some custom effects on showdown like the ones for sleep/freeze clauses, I am a complete purist on keeping the game mechanics as identical to the games as possible, at least in the regular tiers. If you want to have OMs with severely altered mechanics, that's fine, but I think most of us would prefer to keep paying tribute to these games, to keep simulating them just as they are.
This is completely replicable on cart just like any other Showdown mechanic... except Sleep Clause, which literally isn't.

The cart equivalent is telling the opponent first. Just as Tera Preview would work.

Works better than "oh whoops if I click Sleep Powder this turn, I may disqualify the entire battle from Showdown ruling, or it might be the optimal play!"

IMO it's really not a mechanic change anymore than Tera Preview. But I do understand your opinion.
 
Electric Tera Blast Azumarill allows to fight back at Corvknight and Toxapex who try to wall it.

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Tera Electric Azumarill Tera Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 332-392 (83.2 - 98.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Tera Electric Azumarill Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 266-314 (87.5 - 103.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
 
disclaimer: I’m actually enjoying the meta, but it is statistically lacking diversity. You can’t have a good team without tusk/gambit or basically other Pokémon’s with a good profile on both sides of the offensive/defensive coin.

1. Shed tail ban
2. Tera restriction: show Tera types at team preview

these two simple steps will help make the meta fun whilst having an interesting compromise.

- removing shed tail takes away the opportunity for roaring moon and other sweepers to get a free turn

- restricting Tera by forcing all info to be declared at preview also takes away the 50/50’s when trying to check key offensive threats.

it might even be enough to bring back espathra, since you’ll know her Tera type at preview and which check you want to keep healthy. I.e. you’re not flipping a coin on whether your turn was completely wasted switching in gholdengo in anticipation of Tera fighting or fairy, only to see Tera fire and immediately lose the game.

I think the other banned threats are harder to salvage tho
I think Tera and Shed Tail pushed Espathra over the edge as well, but I'm not sure it would necessarily be healthy even with Tera preview. Apologies in advance for digging up old arguments from the Tera suspect thread in general my issue with this idea is that it feels too much like a half-measure - Espathra, among other things such as a certain moth that's been with us since BW, will still decide or at least heavily influence the outcome of games from team preview. (Volc has always had this problem tbf, but in previous generations it felt like there was just enough counterplay to keep it in check.) While matchups between team styles will always be an element of competitive Pokemon, Tera has made this far more of an issue, and I don't think Tera preview will do much to alleviate it in the long run.
 
Electric Tera Blast Azumarill allows to fight back at Corvknight and Toxapex who try to wall it.

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Tera Electric Azumarill Tera Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 332-392 (83.2 - 98.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Tera Electric Azumarill Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 266-314 (87.5 - 103.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
https://i.imgur.com/d34oyGa.png


can we not post irrelevant calcs in the middle of a discussion about shed tail/tera/the place of hyper offense in the metagame? thanks
 
That's not why people are reacting with laughs. The posts getting those reactions are also going off on anti-tera rants, when the results from the actual suspect test showed that outright banning terastalization is incredibly unpopular.

Multiple people came out and stated that their preference was tera preview, but they voted No Action because they thought that Ban would have the most support - enough to swing the result, given how close the voting was. Why? Because the Ban supporters were emphatic, posted frequently, and all backed each other up, despite actually being only a very small number.

Now we have people claiming the meta is RUINED FOREVER and that we need to Ban Tera! to fix it, but look at the last couple surveys and what do you see? The community as a whole had a positive view on the tier. Maybe that's changed now that Orthworm and Shed Tail have really taken off in popularity (and Shed Tail really does seem to be widely unpopular, I've seen 'not broken' arguments but nobody endorsing it as something they enjoy), but the latest evidence suggests that once again it's a vocal minority raising complaints, while most players are silent and content.
i find this kind of sentiment to be disagreeable, as at its core it is totally vacuous, serving no end other than to stifle opposing opinions. falling back on consensus has zero bearing on whether or not terastallization is banworthy, because not only can lots of people be wrong at once, it's also a total non-sequitur. you're not actually presenting any substantive arguments in favour of preserving terastallization, discussing its impact on the meta & how it functions. in lieu of this, you gesture to something unrelated that at first blush appears to be an argument, but is not.

it's perfectly valid for anyone to raise concerns around metagame elements they consider to be problematic, including ones that have been assessed before. in fact, i'll do that right now:

from the jump the terastallization suspect was a farce. it remains a mystery to me as to why terastallization was given special treatment with regards to complex bans, the degree to which we have never seen before. why can we trim down & try to normalise terastallization, but not any other currently banned element? it's arbitrary & flies in the face of the consistent tiering approach smogon aims for. the next time terastallization is suspected, it needs to be an all-or-nothing binary choice.

the flexibility proffered by terastallization is overwhelming. pretty much any pokemon has the means with which to bypass would-be answers, and in many instances said pokemon already have a limited pool of checks. this increases the role team matchup plays in determining the outcome of games, the flip side of which being that actual plays are less important. it has always been impossible to build a team that entirely covers every relevant threat in the metagame, but in all previous generations there was feasible room for manoeuvre to win by overcoming the disadvantage. this generation, building a solid team that you can be confident has minimal outright losing matchups nigh impossible. the only reasonable response to such a scenario is to build teams on the extremes, which is what many are complaining about now.

furthermore, because terastallization is universal it can be used at any time by any pokemon & with any variation, it kneecaps the fundamental pokemon skill of information gathering & inference. pokemon is a game of imperfect information, & reading between the lines of your opponent's team structure & play to form a picture of the game is imperative for strategising. when an opponent will use tera, on which pokemon, which tera type & set said pokemon will be, and what the pokemon will do with said set is for all intents & purposes a black hole when it comes to the information game.

also, during play terastallization often presents imbalanced near-guess scenarios, where the reactive player's best play is determined purely by whether or not the tera-using player has the appropriate configuration of moves+typing, and whether or not they will press forward with it now, or reserve it for later. such dynamics are unfair as the risk for the reactive player is always greater than that of the tera user. once again, this also minimises the role of player's actions. (do not try to apply any of this to z-moves, it & terastallization are in different galaxies in this regard)

irrespective of the last few paragraphs, the power boost from terastallization alone is enough to raise eyebrows. whether it be your otherwise relatively weak coverage move now being stab, alongside your other stabs, or gaining adaptability for one stab, terastallization offers a degree of power which itself is often just too much to handle for any non-extreme team.

this is all to say that the variation terastallization brings also opens the door for an unacceptably high level of volatility, which is something we (hopefully) should strive to avoid. pokemon, or at least balanced & competitive pokemon, requires a degree of stability, limitation, & predictability - not in play, but in the interaction between metagame elements, as these are the conditions in which metagame knowledge, capacity for strategy, & player expression win games - not whether or not you risked everything to click the correct move on the specific turn the volcarona, one of 6 pokemon, turned into a grass type thanks to terastallization, or whether or not any specific threat can turn counters into fodder on a whim.

tldr: fuck terastallization
 

1LDK

Vengeance
is a Top Team Rater
On the survey that just pop, this is what I rate

Enjoyment and Balanced get a 7 for me, on the grand scheme of things, Shed Tail and Garganacl are the biggest issues for me, the tier is somewhat balanced when not looking at this and It's still fun

Shed tail gets a 5, I have already explained my opinions about boring offense so needless to say, it's kinda boring

:volcarona: gets a 3 for me, it's just matchup fish deep-fried with cheese and fat to make it extra caloric, nothing new on the table, and I would not bother really with a suspect test

:Kingambit: gets a 2, We kinda need this as ghost check, and HOME will give us some checks and counters, so no problem from me

:Garganacl: gets a 5, for all the reasons I have explained before, I know it will get no attention, but I think I'm the last man standing when it comes to this mon, so gotta keep the legacy running
 
Enjoyment: 9. I am an old fart who remembers the days before team preview, and a little unpredictability is a good thing - it requires you to think on your feet.

Balance: 8. Good, not perfect.

Shed Tail: 5. If this was on a weak mon, like Revival Blessing, maybe it wouldn't be bad, but both users are pretty decent even without it - Cyclizar might even be OU viable, even if there's no chance it's OU by usage.

Volcarona: 3. Matchup moth doing matchup moth things, but now with 100% less Heatran as a backstop.

Kingambit: 1. -1, even. It has great defensive utility and fits nicely on everything except hard stall.

Gargnacl: 2. It's annoying, but again, I'm an old fart and I remember Scald burns doing 1/8 a turn. It's annoying, but I'd still rather take Salt Cure than BW Scald.
 

awyp

'Alexa play Ladyfingers by Herb Alpert'
is a Forum Moderatoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
On a scale of 1-10, how enjoyable do you find the current metagame? 5
On a scale of 1-10, how competitive and balanced do you find the current metagame? 7
On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Shed Tail? 5
On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Volcarona? 3
On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Garganacl? 3
Is there anything else not already mentioned you would like to see the Council look into? Ban Tera
 
i find this kind of sentiment to be disagreeable, as at its core it is totally vacuous, serving no end other than to stifle opposing opinions. falling back on consensus has zero bearing on whether or not terastallization is banworthy, because not only can lots of people be wrong at once, it's also a total non-sequitur. you're not actually presenting any substantive arguments in favour of preserving terastallization, discussing its impact on the meta & how it functions. in lieu of this, you gesture to something unrelated that at first blush appears to be an argument, but is not.

it's perfectly valid for anyone to raise concerns around metagame elements they consider to be problematic, including ones that have been assessed before. in fact, i'll do that right now:

(snip)
Competitive Pokemon has involved incomplete information since it started, and we even had four generations - including what are widely regarded as the best-balanced OU metagames - where you couldn't plan around your opponent's team because team preview didn't exist. Terastalization re-emphasizes flexible planning and adapting on the fly, and I consider that a positive change. Valuing different skills is not a bad thing.

Sure, it's unpredictable. So are lure sets, and Lure That Threat is on Week 15 right now. If you lose to a novelty, give your opponent some credit for setting it up and executing, and queue for another game.

Sure, it gives mons coverage they otherwise wouldn't have. So did Hidden Power, and originally it was 70 BP, not even much weaker than Tera Blast's 80 BP.

Sure, it lets you flip a mon's weaknesses and buy a turn, or defeat a check and sweep. I don't see a real difference between preserving your ability to terastalize for the late game, and preserving the health of a designated cleaner so it can survive revenge killing attempts.
 
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KamenOH

formerly DynamaxBestMeta
Enjoyment-8. Good amount of unpredictability to keep me focused
Balanced-8, because diverse play styles are available, and good at that.
Shed Tail-3, actually setting one up is ass but seeing it work is nice, when i use it lol
Volc-2, solid offense force, definitely A tier minimum, like its always been.
Gargamel-2, nice and bulky, able to salt two of the strongest types (should honestly do fairy in too imo)
 
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