i agree that flutter mane is way beyond the appropiate power level and i support starting home without it, my point is more that (even though i barely know anything about smogon politics) i guess that FV was voted on or appointed for a reason, and in any democratic system you should have the right to vote whatever regardless others agree or not. i don't really agree with releasing all these mons into ou but it's an opinion we gotta respect
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
- Status
since home is gonna release I present to you
THE HISTORY OF PRE-HOME SV OU
It was 18th of November, 2022. A new generation of Pokémon games came out. On the same day, smogon coded the new mons into the game.
Flutter mane revealed herself to be one of the most stupid mons released. She has an INSANE speed tier, an INSANE special attack and even an INSANE special defense. Flutter Mane rolled over many teams. Utilising the new booster energy (which was coded incorrectly to give a x1.5 boost to every stat), she was unstoppable and resorted to speed ties. She would In the meantime, other mons started to gain hype. One of which was Great Tusk, who people called the second coming of Landorus-Therian. It has great physical attack and defense, and above average HP, but it has an abysmal special defense, with below-average speed. However, what caught the eye of many was its unique combination of utility and offense. Great tusk as I mentioned has a huge physical attack, but it also got DUAL 120 BP STABS: Close Combat and the new ground type equivalent: Headlong Rush. Now here is the utility part. It has 2 moves that help it to break apart teams while simultaneously providing utility: Knock off, and rapid spin. Knock off might as well be a dark type coverage move, synergising well with Close Combat. Rapid spin got buffed in gen 8 after GameFreak realised how popular defog is. It now gave a speed boost, making it scarier for faster teams to face. However, each of them also provided utility. Knock Off can cripple switch ins thanks to item removal, while rapid spin also clears hazards. Great Tusk’s massive movepool included Stealth Rock, which is an amazing competitive move for chipping the opposition, Rock type coverage (in stone miss and rock tomb), Earthquake for those who want a safer option, and the new move Ice Spinner, which is an Icicle Crash that has slightly less BP and does not flinch and makes contact, but is 100% accurate.
However, the most hyped mon was Gholdengo. Gholdengo has a phenomenal typing. Steel/Ghost typing, as Aegislash has shown, is excellent, with numerous resistances and immunities. Ghost is also a great offensive STAB, and shadow ball spam can hit many switchins. Gholdengo also has a new move: Make it Rain. It is a Steel type STAB move with 120 BP. It’s drawback is reducing Gholdengo’s special attack by 1 stage, but it is a very powerful option to have, especially in choiced sets. While it’s speed is not good, it’s typing is one of the best defensively, and it also has DECEPTIVELY high bulk. It also has other moves that are excellent to have, such as Nasty Plot, Focus Miss, and even Recover. However, the source of the massive hype is it’s ability, Good as Gold. Preventing status is a nice tool to have, but once people discovered that it can block defog, people became crazed. Hazards are the heart and soul of competitive Pokémon since generation 2. They can chip the target. Therefore, Hazard REMOVAL became important for every team, whether it would be stall, balance or offense. There are 2 main ways to remove hazards for most teams. Rapid Spin and Defog. Rapid Spin was blocked by ghosts, which was gholdengo’s type. Then, there is defog. Previously, defog can only be punished, not prevented. However, you could not punish a defog when the team has a rock solid defensive backbone. So, good as gold gained immense hype. Hazard stack became very popular in the early stages of the generation and remains popular now. Coincidentally, there was another new mon: Glimmora. It has all three of stealth rock, spikes and toxic spikes. It also has an ability which summons toxic spikes when hit with a contact move, has dual screens and memento. Suicide lead glimmora became immensely popular.
Then, there was Cyclizar and the insane move, Shed Tail, which passes a substitute. Cyclizar also has regenerator, and situs berry and scarf gained immense hype until it got banned, which we will get into that.
But know let me introduce you to the Treasures of Ruin.
Once there was a King
Who ruled with force
And punished those who spoke up against his evil deeds
With no remorse
That is why there were 4 new Pokémon. Chien-Pao, Chi-Yu, Ting-Lu and Wo-Chien.
Chien-Pao was known as Mega Weavile, as it has more speed and a completely balanced ability that gives it a attack stat comparable to Deoxys attack. Chi-Yu had an insane special attack, with a similarly balanced ability that gave it nearly 200 special attack. We will get to these 2 weirdos later.
Wo-Chien was the ugly duckling and was so shit that it fell to UU. It felt not important to talk about.
But now, let’s talk about Ting-Lu. It formed another realm of hazard stack. It has an insane 155 HP, 125 Defense. 80 special defense is already good enough for a mon with 155 hp, but it seemed that it was not enough. Ting-Lu debuffs the special attack of the enemy by 25%. Dark/Ground is by no means a bad typing, and it brought unique resistances. Now let’s get into its movepool. Ting-Lu is not an example of the Flareon Theorem. It has both forms of hazards (rocks and spikes), whirlwind, earthquake and even Sand Tomb to actually do shit, and a unique move called Ruination. Ruination removes 50% of the target’s current HP, allowing it to chip switch-ins. All 4 treasures of ruin get this, but Pao and Chi-Yu did not use them, and we do not talk about Wo-Chien. With leftovers and a set of Spikes, Stealth Rock, Earthquake and Whirlwind, it fulfills many vital roles. It is the team’s rocker, the team’s spiker, and it checks many physical and special threats, including Gholdengo, and it can also switch into setup sweepers, eat a hit, and phase them away. Therefore, it is the core of Bulky Hazard Stack, which would go on to be a big part of the metagame.
Let me talk about a new mechanic: Tera. It allowed mons to change types, while also improving STAB attacks. This mechanic is the reason why Chien-Pao and Chi-Yu got banned.
Okay, now let’s talk about more mons. Breloom, Volcarona and Dragonite returned. Breloom ran a loaded dice set that destroyed fat, volcarona returned with his quiver dance antics, and dragonite abused Tera normal for a powerful extreme speed to be the E-Killer of OU. Kingambit also gained hype, but then fell off quickly, as it initially seemed to be bad. Roaring Moon is a new powerful offensive threat, using Tera flying acrobatics at the start, but got nerfed with the new booster energy discovery
But let me introduce you to what is perhaps the most offensively versatile mon in OU. Iron Valiant. It has great attacking stats and has a fast speed. It has great attacking options. This mon could run so many sets. Choice Specs, Choice Band, Choice Scarf, Booster Energy, LO mixed, Boots 4 attacks, LO Calm Mind, Swords dance, even SalacEndureReversal. Yeah, all of these are viable sets. However, choice specs and Booster energy really took off. They would Tera fairy and spam moonblast, dealing massive damage to everything.
Stall was nerfed heavily. Recover PP was halved, big stall lost scald and knock. However, alomomola returned, and 3 new powerful unaware walls came by: Skeledirge, Clodsire and Dondozo. Clodsire walled almost every special attacker, while setting up hazards and toxicing, and recovering off their hits. Unaware is a powerful ability, completely negating set up moves. Dondozo was the physical counterpart to Clodsire and the infamous Blissey. It completely walled nearly every physical attacker, using them as curse fodder while also hitting back hard. It had to rely on rest but if your walling most of the metagame it is good enough. Skeledirge actually found it’s home on more balanced teams as a non-passive mixed wall spamming torch song, a new move that has 80 BP and rose the user’s special attack. The first ever stall teams used Gholdengo and spammed hazards.
Then Palafin and Iron bundle were banned. Three broken mons.
Meowscarada came to be as a powerful attacker. Flower Trick always crits, knock off crippled switch ins, and it also has spikes. However, what really elevates its viability is Protean. Although it got nerfed heavily, it is still good to make its coverage options more powerful. Meowscarada balance became a real force in the metagame.
Tera was suspected, but in the end, it was not banned.
Charizard was released but it was outclassed by Chi-Yu, who was still powerful and forced roaring moon onto many teams.
Chi-Yu was impossible to wall without a Dachsbun or specially defensive roaring moon. Annihilape has a busted signature move. Five broken mons.
Then, """"fat balance"""" began to dominate the meta. It consisted of 4 bulky mons and 2 offensive mons. This is just semi-stall but that’s what they call it. Garganacl rose in this era. It is a powerful and stupid abuser of tera. And it’s signature move, salt cure forced progress way too easily. It also has recover, a pseudo ghost resistance and status immunity thanks to its ability. GargaPex became very popular in this new era of fat balance domination.
Stall soon improved after the invention of the double regenerator core by juliusfunnel. It consisted of Mola and pex and significantly improved the longevity of stall. It was also one of the few ways to prevent progress from being forced by salt cure. Many stall teams adopted the double REGEN core.
HO teams soon improved and abused Chien Pao, which used choice band, boots SD and even black glasses. Iron treads is hated. It appeared to be a worse version of tusk. It used to run AV sets but now switched to a lead set. HO spammed offensive threats, and Hatterene grew as a pivot with eject button. Slowking also rose as future sight became insane and chilly reception was a new move that is a better teleport.
Then, Pao was suspected, due to its insane power and speed. It was beaten by ”hazards and priority" but these soon to be poor countermeasures, and Pao was banned. Stall and balance became better. Espathra was also banned, along with Cyclizar. Eight broken mons.
Then, the UUBL Baxcalibur started rising to OU. It could thrive after the Pao ban with its massive attack and strong signature ability. It also used loaded dice icicle spear for a high average damage, but it can also use choice band to deal massive damage immediately.
But now, it is the rise of Kingambit. It proved itself to be a powerful endgame cleaner, and supreme overlord was great. The ability allowed it to have a effective attack stat of over 200(!!) and it could use Tera to beat tusk. Kingambit skyrocketed to 40% usage. Gholdengo, on the other hand plummeted. Wars between balance teams often featured complex endgames when there is kingambit vs others. The others would guess if it would sucker punch or not, and Tera or not. These guessing games formed the core of balance wars.
Between these times, Cinderace and Greninja were released. Cinderace had a unique niche with court change, while Greninja was outclassed by meowscarada and eventually, the legend fell to UU.
Orthworm rose in the wake of the Cyclizar Ban. It also has shed tail, and shed tail HO started using it, along with lead Glimmora.
Then, Iron Leaves and Walking Wake were released. Iron leaves was a fat breaker, but that was its only role. Walking wake, on the other hand single handedly brought sun to dominance. Hydro steam deals massive damage, and it also has a stronger move in Draco meteor, and coverage in flamethrower. Sun rose rapidly. It would be suspected but never banned.
There was an interregnum before shed tail was banned. Then, we are in the era when ideas developed. One such idea was AV pex. It allowed it to surprise mons trying to exploit its passivity, while also using AV to check special threats.
This is the era we are today. Home is gonna release soon. Sorry, but I could not cover all the meta mons and discoveries. because there are quite a lot.
THE END
THE HISTORY OF PRE-HOME SV OU
It was 18th of November, 2022. A new generation of Pokémon games came out. On the same day, smogon coded the new mons into the game.
Flutter mane revealed herself to be one of the most stupid mons released. She has an INSANE speed tier, an INSANE special attack and even an INSANE special defense. Flutter Mane rolled over many teams. Utilising the new booster energy (which was coded incorrectly to give a x1.5 boost to every stat), she was unstoppable and resorted to speed ties. She would In the meantime, other mons started to gain hype. One of which was Great Tusk, who people called the second coming of Landorus-Therian. It has great physical attack and defense, and above average HP, but it has an abysmal special defense, with below-average speed. However, what caught the eye of many was its unique combination of utility and offense. Great tusk as I mentioned has a huge physical attack, but it also got DUAL 120 BP STABS: Close Combat and the new ground type equivalent: Headlong Rush. Now here is the utility part. It has 2 moves that help it to break apart teams while simultaneously providing utility: Knock off, and rapid spin. Knock off might as well be a dark type coverage move, synergising well with Close Combat. Rapid spin got buffed in gen 8 after GameFreak realised how popular defog is. It now gave a speed boost, making it scarier for faster teams to face. However, each of them also provided utility. Knock Off can cripple switch ins thanks to item removal, while rapid spin also clears hazards. Great Tusk’s massive movepool included Stealth Rock, which is an amazing competitive move for chipping the opposition, Rock type coverage (in stone miss and rock tomb), Earthquake for those who want a safer option, and the new move Ice Spinner, which is an Icicle Crash that has slightly less BP and does not flinch and makes contact, but is 100% accurate.
However, the most hyped mon was Gholdengo. Gholdengo has a phenomenal typing. Steel/Ghost typing, as Aegislash has shown, is excellent, with numerous resistances and immunities. Ghost is also a great offensive STAB, and shadow ball spam can hit many switchins. Gholdengo also has a new move: Make it Rain. It is a Steel type STAB move with 120 BP. It’s drawback is reducing Gholdengo’s special attack by 1 stage, but it is a very powerful option to have, especially in choiced sets. While it’s speed is not good, it’s typing is one of the best defensively, and it also has DECEPTIVELY high bulk. It also has other moves that are excellent to have, such as Nasty Plot, Focus Miss, and even Recover. However, the source of the massive hype is it’s ability, Good as Gold. Preventing status is a nice tool to have, but once people discovered that it can block defog, people became crazed. Hazards are the heart and soul of competitive Pokémon since generation 2. They can chip the target. Therefore, Hazard REMOVAL became important for every team, whether it would be stall, balance or offense. There are 2 main ways to remove hazards for most teams. Rapid Spin and Defog. Rapid Spin was blocked by ghosts, which was gholdengo’s type. Then, there is defog. Previously, defog can only be punished, not prevented. However, you could not punish a defog when the team has a rock solid defensive backbone. So, good as gold gained immense hype. Hazard stack became very popular in the early stages of the generation and remains popular now. Coincidentally, there was another new mon: Glimmora. It has all three of stealth rock, spikes and toxic spikes. It also has an ability which summons toxic spikes when hit with a contact move, has dual screens and memento. Suicide lead glimmora became immensely popular.
Then, there was Cyclizar and the insane move, Shed Tail, which passes a substitute. Cyclizar also has regenerator, and situs berry and scarf gained immense hype until it got banned, which we will get into that.
But know let me introduce you to the Treasures of Ruin.
Once there was a King
Who ruled with force
And punished those who spoke up against his evil deeds
With no remorse
That is why there were 4 new Pokémon. Chien-Pao, Chi-Yu, Ting-Lu and Wo-Chien.
Chien-Pao was known as Mega Weavile, as it has more speed and a completely balanced ability that gives it a attack stat comparable to Deoxys attack. Chi-Yu had an insane special attack, with a similarly balanced ability that gave it nearly 200 special attack. We will get to these 2 weirdos later.
Wo-Chien was the ugly duckling and was so shit that it fell to UU. It felt not important to talk about.
But now, let’s talk about Ting-Lu. It formed another realm of hazard stack. It has an insane 155 HP, 125 Defense. 80 special defense is already good enough for a mon with 155 hp, but it seemed that it was not enough. Ting-Lu debuffs the special attack of the enemy by 25%. Dark/Ground is by no means a bad typing, and it brought unique resistances. Now let’s get into its movepool. Ting-Lu is not an example of the Flareon Theorem. It has both forms of hazards (rocks and spikes), whirlwind, earthquake and even Sand Tomb to actually do shit, and a unique move called Ruination. Ruination removes 50% of the target’s current HP, allowing it to chip switch-ins. All 4 treasures of ruin get this, but Pao and Chi-Yu did not use them, and we do not talk about Wo-Chien. With leftovers and a set of Spikes, Stealth Rock, Earthquake and Whirlwind, it fulfills many vital roles. It is the team’s rocker, the team’s spiker, and it checks many physical and special threats, including Gholdengo, and it can also switch into setup sweepers, eat a hit, and phase them away. Therefore, it is the core of Bulky Hazard Stack, which would go on to be a big part of the metagame.
Let me talk about a new mechanic: Tera. It allowed mons to change types, while also improving STAB attacks. This mechanic is the reason why Chien-Pao and Chi-Yu got banned.
Okay, now let’s talk about more mons. Breloom, Volcarona and Dragonite returned. Breloom ran a loaded dice set that destroyed fat, volcarona returned with his quiver dance antics, and dragonite abused Tera normal for a powerful extreme speed to be the E-Killer of OU. Kingambit also gained hype, but then fell off quickly, as it initially seemed to be bad. Roaring Moon is a new powerful offensive threat, using Tera flying acrobatics at the start, but got nerfed with the new booster energy discovery
But let me introduce you to what is perhaps the most offensively versatile mon in OU. Iron Valiant. It has great attacking stats and has a fast speed. It has great attacking options. This mon could run so many sets. Choice Specs, Choice Band, Choice Scarf, Booster Energy, LO mixed, Boots 4 attacks, LO Calm Mind, Swords dance, even SalacEndureReversal. Yeah, all of these are viable sets. However, choice specs and Booster energy really took off. They would Tera fairy and spam moonblast, dealing massive damage to everything.
Stall was nerfed heavily. Recover PP was halved, big stall lost scald and knock. However, alomomola returned, and 3 new powerful unaware walls came by: Skeledirge, Clodsire and Dondozo. Clodsire walled almost every special attacker, while setting up hazards and toxicing, and recovering off their hits. Unaware is a powerful ability, completely negating set up moves. Dondozo was the physical counterpart to Clodsire and the infamous Blissey. It completely walled nearly every physical attacker, using them as curse fodder while also hitting back hard. It had to rely on rest but if your walling most of the metagame it is good enough. Skeledirge actually found it’s home on more balanced teams as a non-passive mixed wall spamming torch song, a new move that has 80 BP and rose the user’s special attack. The first ever stall teams used Gholdengo and spammed hazards.
Then Palafin and Iron bundle were banned. Three broken mons.
Meowscarada came to be as a powerful attacker. Flower Trick always crits, knock off crippled switch ins, and it also has spikes. However, what really elevates its viability is Protean. Although it got nerfed heavily, it is still good to make its coverage options more powerful. Meowscarada balance became a real force in the metagame.
Tera was suspected, but in the end, it was not banned.
Charizard was released but it was outclassed by Chi-Yu, who was still powerful and forced roaring moon onto many teams.
Chi-Yu was impossible to wall without a Dachsbun or specially defensive roaring moon. Annihilape has a busted signature move. Five broken mons.
Then, """"fat balance"""" began to dominate the meta. It consisted of 4 bulky mons and 2 offensive mons. This is just semi-stall but that’s what they call it. Garganacl rose in this era. It is a powerful and stupid abuser of tera. And it’s signature move, salt cure forced progress way too easily. It also has recover, a pseudo ghost resistance and status immunity thanks to its ability. GargaPex became very popular in this new era of fat balance domination.
Stall soon improved after the invention of the double regenerator core by juliusfunnel. It consisted of Mola and pex and significantly improved the longevity of stall. It was also one of the few ways to prevent progress from being forced by salt cure. Many stall teams adopted the double REGEN core.
HO teams soon improved and abused Chien Pao, which used choice band, boots SD and even black glasses. Iron treads is hated. It appeared to be a worse version of tusk. It used to run AV sets but now switched to a lead set. HO spammed offensive threats, and Hatterene grew as a pivot with eject button. Slowking also rose as future sight became insane and chilly reception was a new move that is a better teleport.
Then, Pao was suspected, due to its insane power and speed. It was beaten by ”hazards and priority" but these soon to be poor countermeasures, and Pao was banned. Stall and balance became better. Espathra was also banned, along with Cyclizar. Eight broken mons.
Then, the UUBL Baxcalibur started rising to OU. It could thrive after the Pao ban with its massive attack and strong signature ability. It also used loaded dice icicle spear for a high average damage, but it can also use choice band to deal massive damage immediately.
But now, it is the rise of Kingambit. It proved itself to be a powerful endgame cleaner, and supreme overlord was great. The ability allowed it to have a effective attack stat of over 200(!!) and it could use Tera to beat tusk. Kingambit skyrocketed to 40% usage. Gholdengo, on the other hand plummeted. Wars between balance teams often featured complex endgames when there is kingambit vs others. The others would guess if it would sucker punch or not, and Tera or not. These guessing games formed the core of balance wars.
Between these times, Cinderace and Greninja were released. Cinderace had a unique niche with court change, while Greninja was outclassed by meowscarada and eventually, the legend fell to UU.
Orthworm rose in the wake of the Cyclizar Ban. It also has shed tail, and shed tail HO started using it, along with lead Glimmora.
Then, Iron Leaves and Walking Wake were released. Iron leaves was a fat breaker, but that was its only role. Walking wake, on the other hand single handedly brought sun to dominance. Hydro steam deals massive damage, and it also has a stronger move in Draco meteor, and coverage in flamethrower. Sun rose rapidly. It would be suspected but never banned.
There was an interregnum before shed tail was banned. Then, we are in the era when ideas developed. One such idea was AV pex. It allowed it to surprise mons trying to exploit its passivity, while also using AV to check special threats.
This is the era we are today. Home is gonna release soon. Sorry, but I could not cover all the meta mons and discoveries. because there are quite a lot.
THE END
Who is going to tell him?
In Flutter Mane's defense, the low physical bulk is a legitimate weakness that give teams some leeway in checking it with priority or Choice Scarf users if it opts not to run Booster Energy. Its been a while since I've played BSS, but that is a format where Flutter Mane is legal and my typical strategy for checking it there was using either Scizor or Tera Ghost Mixed Shadow Sneak LO Valiant (which was fun since its like a Flutter Mane that can check opposing Flutter Mane heh)
4 Atk Life Orb Tera Ghost Iron Valiant Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 229-273 (91.2 - 108.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Flutter Mane can play around these weaknesses with Tera, Booster Energy makes it impossible to outspeed, and its strong and fast af letting it clean teams at a moments notice. OU can barely handle Specs Tera Fairy Iron Valiant and Flutter Mane is like that on crack. I personally wouldn't want it to be unbanned. That being said, I could see how others could entertain the prospect of legalizing it for a day or two. I don't think its comparable to Miraidon being unbanned since Miraidon is also pretty bulky, has stronger STABs & its ability self-supports itself.
TLDR?
This meta is definitely lacking when I compare it to last generation.
last generation, you could legitimately make a high performing OU team, without a single OU Pokémon on that team. I.e. you could have a team of UU/UUBL and below.
the meta was very diverse..
everything from rotom-heat to crawdaunt had good utility and could be moulded into a team
in this generation it feels like the diversity should be there, especially with Tera allowing Pokémon to get past their OU limitations. but it’s really not there.
in this generation, you need 4+ high viability Pokémon just to have a cohesive, high performing team.
I think a big reason is kingambit. It’s kinda got a chokehold on how viable Pokémon are. Pokémon’s are as viable as their ability to deal with mr. checkmate, since if you’re matching up against gambit, chances are it’ll be a threat from turn 1 til the last turn.
seriously.. booster energy iron valiant is one of its best sets!! It’s no coincidence that this popular - and highly viable - late game cleaning set features a handy x4 resist to sucker punch.
tusk is kinda similar, unlike lando it exudes a massive pressure. landorus didn’t really have this strong counter-pressure all the time. Presumably this is due to:
lando was common, but it never felt like a “problem” in the way that tusk and particularly gambit do. both are a symptom of the non-diverse and constrictive meta which forces them to be on almost every team.
—
Seriously, based on how it warps OU and chokes any progress in diversity, I think Kingambit is in a position where it’s worth a suspect. Except it has so much defensive utility, I’d rather just ban supreme overlord in the interests of keeping OU fun.
ghosts already run rampant as it is, without gambit it would be worse
—
Gholdengo, glimmora and ting lu are extremely pressuring for a very different reason, they require you to have an entire play style and game structure around preventing a game of “no choice but to have” hazards. It’s basically the reason for the 50% tusk usage mandate OU has.
one of the cornerstones of previous generations was being able to legitimately build a high pressure team that doesn’t even give the opponent a chance to get up more than one layer of hazards at best. And due to the pressure, them getting those hazards up would come with a great cost. Now if you do not have an active full-hazard removal strategy on your tea, I.e. great tusk, then you’re gonna be on the back foot against any team with some combination of glimmora , ting lu or gholdengo.
if you have a tusk? Then it’s down to 50/50s and making weighted risk/reward decisions.
it’s kinda obnoxious.
It’s a big reason why the most popular stall teams run 6x HDB.
the teams and their structures are just forcing very specific gameplay.
and this forced specific gameplay means you have a very limited amount of options to fulfil this gameplay.
this then means these limited options, which are good in other ways, put immense pressure on all other Pokémon’s.
it’s just a weird meta, and team design is strange.
last generation, you could legitimately make a high performing OU team, without a single OU Pokémon on that team. I.e. you could have a team of UU/UUBL and below.
the meta was very diverse..
everything from rotom-heat to crawdaunt had good utility and could be moulded into a team
in this generation it feels like the diversity should be there, especially with Tera allowing Pokémon to get past their OU limitations. but it’s really not there.
in this generation, you need 4+ high viability Pokémon just to have a cohesive, high performing team.
I think a big reason is kingambit. It’s kinda got a chokehold on how viable Pokémon are. Pokémon’s are as viable as their ability to deal with mr. checkmate, since if you’re matching up against gambit, chances are it’ll be a threat from turn 1 til the last turn.
seriously.. booster energy iron valiant is one of its best sets!! It’s no coincidence that this popular - and highly viable - late game cleaning set features a handy x4 resist to sucker punch.
tusk is kinda similar, unlike lando it exudes a massive pressure. landorus didn’t really have this strong counter-pressure all the time. Presumably this is due to:
- the limited tusk switchins, whereas in every meta with lando, you always had multiple viable birds to check it.
- Rapid spin boosts speed, threatening Pokémon’s that are otherwise faster on the next turn and being less of a “waste of a turn” than defog
- Tusk is significantly harder to wear down, thanks to the x4 SR resist
- Many high powered STAB options, EQ, HR, CC, BP. These are immediately more pressuring than some combo of EQ, knock off, u turn and toxic
lando was common, but it never felt like a “problem” in the way that tusk and particularly gambit do. both are a symptom of the non-diverse and constrictive meta which forces them to be on almost every team.
—
Seriously, based on how it warps OU and chokes any progress in diversity, I think Kingambit is in a position where it’s worth a suspect. Except it has so much defensive utility, I’d rather just ban supreme overlord in the interests of keeping OU fun.
ghosts already run rampant as it is, without gambit it would be worse
—
Gholdengo, glimmora and ting lu are extremely pressuring for a very different reason, they require you to have an entire play style and game structure around preventing a game of “no choice but to have” hazards. It’s basically the reason for the 50% tusk usage mandate OU has.
one of the cornerstones of previous generations was being able to legitimately build a high pressure team that doesn’t even give the opponent a chance to get up more than one layer of hazards at best. And due to the pressure, them getting those hazards up would come with a great cost. Now if you do not have an active full-hazard removal strategy on your tea, I.e. great tusk, then you’re gonna be on the back foot against any team with some combination of glimmora , ting lu or gholdengo.
if you have a tusk? Then it’s down to 50/50s and making weighted risk/reward decisions.
it’s kinda obnoxious.
It’s a big reason why the most popular stall teams run 6x HDB.
the teams and their structures are just forcing very specific gameplay.
and this forced specific gameplay means you have a very limited amount of options to fulfil this gameplay.
this then means these limited options, which are good in other ways, put immense pressure on all other Pokémon’s.
it’s just a weird meta, and team design is strange.
Last edited:
It should also be noted that the mons who beat the IDPress sets (Skeledirge, Dondozo) are ALOT less viable in Nat Dex than they are in OU, so that def influenced their path there as opposed to here.
On top of this, NatDex is dramatically different than SV OU due to the existence of Megas and Z-Crystals, if I'm remembering the format correctly. On top of that, there's a vastly larger selection of Pokemon to play around with, so Dirge and Dozo have a lot to compete with.
Honestly, this meta seems kinda offensive (then again, we got 19 different U-turn mons). Before HOME, it was managable offense. Now we got bullshit like Magearna and Chien-Pao in the meta. Mf's really making me run Clod + Dondozo to try and stop this shit
But hey if you can't beat em, join em >:)
But hey if you can't beat em, join em >:)
Darkrai speed tier and sp. attack might still be too much for the tier, but with the dark void nerf I can't see it staying uber for so long with how much powercreep we are having each gen. For now I see like a better special Weavile (but "weaker" than Pao) however since special attackers are harder to check then it can stay ubers.
zama & zama-c both free: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-home-tiering-announcements.3721859/#post-9637256
WE LET THE DOGS OUT RAHHHHHHHHHHH
No longer am I worried about Ursaluna or Chien-Pao. But...
THIS might be a issue
when does home release? is it in the next 24 hours?
i like that zamazenta wasn't banned hopefully crowned isn't too powerful
i like that zamazenta wasn't banned hopefully crowned isn't too powerful
I posted my thoughts on all of my votes & the results on YouTube
Also, here is the final vote
Also, here is the final vote
Home's maintenance ends around 6am UTC on the 30th (for the first entry wave), roughly 15 hours from now. Presumably Smogon will open the gates on OU/Ubers at a similar time
I still can't believe they'll let Magearna, Chien-Pao & the Zamas in OU, the tier will be in shambles when home gets released...
Remember they're in no way permanent additions, more of a "let's see how this goes" test. If you find them too much to handle, try another tier while you wait for a quickban/suspect or two. Maybe not Ubers, they've got tera Arceus and Zac-C to deal with
Magearna sgear-cm s.power.draining grimmsnarl zamazenta lmao
I think the 2 can be scary in the tier but if it becomes overwhelming I can see it being quickbanned. I thought Zama looked much better in OU but Zama-C + Tera imo might too much with Rest Talk sets in terms of difficulty taking it down.
base 120 atk :(
dauntless shield only activates once per game :(
TBH, there is nothing preventing it from coming in only once and straight up winning the game. If the ghost type is gone, it just ID+rest.talk+bp.
Multiple tera could work. Tera fighting to boost bp, and tera water to have more resist.
- Status