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Gonna try to keep this as short as possible cause I think stances on Garg are pretty set as of right now, and I've fallen into the covert cloak trap which I think leads nowhere for real. Also thinking I should wait a bit more until action happens for chien pao or gholdengo, and then reevaluate it. I'll reply to some things because I think I didn't really state my thoughts very well earlier.
In regards to Chien Pao, it can allow certain variant Pokémon that survive IC to not flinch and return KO (Brute Bonnet was an example I used earlier) Chien Pao isn't awful because Crunch defense drops or because of flinch from IC. That's a straw man or absurd claim. Chien Pao is considered broken because Tera Dark 2HKO's nearly the entire metagame, or 1HKOs after applying hazards which are not so easily removed this gen let alone it has priority the speed to outpriority other priority users and beat them so even that's not a safe option. Some of the mons that can survive to return fire can't even break Pao which limits what you MUST have to beat Chien quite often outside of niche crap. Again First Impression Haxorus, Fighting tera Brute Bonnet, and other such concepts.
In Covert Cloak’s case, Garg is Scald- it might be the FIRST reason you consider using the item over something else, but when you look at all the other attacks your mons are taking, you might find that the item is giving you more value than you’d expect, especially on slower or bulkier mons. Sure, if you had a perfect game and those secondary effects never came into effect, you could have used a more effective item, but there’s no way to guarantee that. And sometimes, all a Mon needs to succeed is to be able to avoid hax altogether instead of needing Leftovers or HDB- Such as Bulky Gholdengo or Toxapex. (And unlike a Lum Berry, Covert Cloak has more than a one-time use!)
I'm gonna be straight up and say that I think this comparison doesn't really work out. There was a decent amount of mons who really didn't mind catching a burn, and even in some cases took advantage of getting burned. It still felt easily managed as there were options. It feels like you're being punished for not running cloak when getting hit with salt cure, which I think is why people keep gravitating to it, me included, and gargs other qualities make it seem overbearing.
keep in mind, the argument isn’t that “oh cloak is actually a good item”, it’s more that “oh, it actually has utility outside of the matchup with garganacl”
"Klawf appears to be based on various species of crabs with hair-like bristles on their bodies, such as the horsehair crab (which has an orange-brown coloration), the velvet crab (a species found in the Mediterranean Sea), or the Chinese mitten crab (an invasive species in Europe). It may also derive inspiration from rock climbing." - Bulbapedia
"Crabcore shall rise again with Klawf at the helm." - Morkal
Notable Physical + Utility Moves:
Body Slam, Brick Break, Crabhammer, Endeavor, High Horsepower, Knock Off, Protect, Rock Blast, Rock Slide, Rock Tomb, Stealth Rock, Stomping Tantrum, Stone Edge, Substitute, Swords Dance, Tera Blast, Trailblaze, X-Scissor
(To those I talked to about this on Showdown, I'm sorry that this took longer than I said it would; it took a while for me to optimize the EVs for Klawf to work properly in OU).
Klawf - The madlad, the legend, the rock crab who probably listened to Attack Attack! and Asking Alexandria this morning, Klawf has unfortunately been ignored by most competitive players this generation despite some handy tools and tech. So why would you run Klawf when there are clearly better Stealth Rock setters in the tier, such as Garganacl, Clodsire, and Glimmora? The truth is, Klawf's OU niche isn't meant to compete with any of those Pokemon; it's meant to complement one of them on a team. While this may seem counter-intuitive, it actually allows multiple Pokemon even more breathing room to expand their moveset with a unique tech option. So let's dive into the rock crab's unique place in OU in yet another massive niche Pokemon post.
Disclaimer:To make Klawf work, it should generally be paired with a Pokemon that usually sets Stealth Rock for your team. This is where the bulk of its niche comes from, and it can feel rather underwhelming if your team is not specifically built to take advantage of this combination. Please use it with caution, especially if you're shaky with general damage ranges; it is NOT an easily splashable Pokemon but can provide consistently strong and game-winning results if you play to its strengths.
Summarized Advantages of Klawf This is a "too long, didn't read" bullet point list for people who don't want to read through the whole post and want a quick understanding of Klawf's OU benefits.
Klawf is the only Pokemon in the entire metagame with the unique combination of Regenerator and Stealth Rock, allowing it a specific type of longevity that doesn't require taking up a move slot for something like Recover.
In addition, the combination of Stealth Rock and Regenerator + Knock Off puts undue pressure on your opponent's spinners and team cores, allowing you additional opportunities to get particular Pokemon in or get specific strategies going and giving your own teambuilding some breathing room due to its excellent role compression.
Klawf's pure Rock type gives it crucial resistances to Fire, Normal, Flying, and Poison-type attacks. This typing, combined with its solid Defense stat and usable HP stat along with Regenerator, gives it more longevity than one would expect from a Pokemon with a seemingly lacking base stat total of 450 (provided you work around its lackluster Special Defense).
Klawf's offensive and utility movepool is flexible, meaning that depending on your team's specific needs, you can apply different tech options to your Klawf to fit multiple archetypes, including Balance, Stall, and Hyper Offense.
Klawf's base 75 Speed is speedy for a physically defensive Rock-type, allowing it to outspeed some unexpected threats with proper EV investment.
Klawf's STAB Rock Blast with Loaded Dice as an item allows Klawf to successfully handle certain Focus Sash and Substitute Pokemon while hitting unexpectedly hard for a Pokemon without Attack investment.
Tera Ghost allows Klawf to bait Fighting-type attacks in the mid-late game, allowing Klawf to take down frail Pokemon such as Chien-Pao or set up Rocks on a Pokemon that Klawf would otherwise not want to stay in on, adding a little unpredictability to its main Regenerock set.
Klawf Regenerock Utility
Klawf @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 76 HP / 212 Def / 220 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Knock Off
- Protect
- Rock Blast
Klawf's specific utility lies in its ability to weave in and out of combat, setting Stealth Rock and chipping opponents while simultaneously healing without an item or move. Regenerator consistently allows you to reset Rocks if they've been spun away thanks to the HP recovery it provides Klawf, in addition to the additional defensive utility. This playstyle puts additional pressure on your opponent's team core composition, provided you predict against physical attackers correctly. Let's talk about the EVs first; 76 HP and 212 Defense EVs hit particular damage thresholds that allow Klawf to avoid OHKOs and 2HKOs from various critical threats (including with opposing Stealth Rock chip in multiple cases).
252+ Atk Kingambit Iron Head vs. 76 HP / 212 Def Klawf: 218-260 (72.6 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Meowscarada Flower Trick vs. 76 HP / 212 Def Klawf on a critical hit: 228-270 (76 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Quaquaval Aqua Step vs. 76 HP / 212 Def Klawf: 186-218 (62 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 76 HP / 212 Def Klawf: 182-216 (60.6 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 76 HP / 212 Def Klawf: 222-262 (74 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Iron Treads Earthquake vs. 76 HP / 212 Def Klawf: 218-260 (72.6 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 76 HP / 212 Def Klawf: 242-288 (80.6 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Baxcalibur Earthquake vs. 76 HP / 212 Def Klawf: 176-208 (58.6 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 76 HP / 212 Def Klawf: 204-240 (68 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Ting-Lu Earthquake vs. 76 HP / 212 Def Klawf: 174-206 (58 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Sacred Sword vs. 76 HP / 212 Def Klawf: 184-218 (61.3 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Sacred Sword vs. 76 HP / 212 Def Klawf: 274-324 (91.3 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Ceruledge Close Combat vs. 76 HP / 212 Def Klawf: 190-224 (63.3 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 76 HP / 212 Def Klawf: 240-284 (80 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Def Dondozo Body Press vs. 76 HP / 212 Def Klawf: 132-156 (44 - 52%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO
4 Def Garganacl Body Press vs. 76 HP / 212 Def Klawf: 108-128 (36 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 4 Def Garganacl Body Press vs. 76 HP / 212 Def Klawf: 214-254 (71.3 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(+2 Iron Defense)
Super Effective Priority Hits:
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 76 HP / 212 Def Klawf: 240-284 (80 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 76 HP / 212 Def Klawf: 146-174 (48.6 - 58%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 76 HP / 212 Def Klawf: 176-210 (58.6 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Neutral Hits:
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Sucker Punch vs. 76 HP / 212 Def Klawf: 108-127 (36 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Meowscarada Sucker Punch vs. 76 HP / 212 Def Klawf: 114-135 (38 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 76 HP / 212 Def Klawf: 96-114 (32 - 38%) -- 93.2% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Baxcalibur Icicle Crash vs. 76 HP / 212 Def Klawf: 112-133 (37.3 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Protean Meowscarada U-turn vs. 76 HP / 212 Def Klawf: 114-135 (38 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Crunch vs. 76 HP / 212 Def Klawf: 133-157 (44.3 - 52.3%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Iron Fist Pawmot Thunder Punch vs. 76 HP / 212 Def Klawf: 100-118 (33.3 - 39.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 76 HP / 212 Def Klawf: 188-224 (62.6 - 74.6%) -- approx. 2HKO
252+ Atk Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 76 HP / 212 Def Klawf: 117-138 (39 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
200+ Atk Choice Band Iron Hands Wild Charge vs. 76 HP / 212 Def Klawf: 183-216 (61 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Hatterene Psyshock vs. 76 HP / 212 Def Klawf: 84-99 (28 - 33%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Resisted Hits:
252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 76 HP / 212 Def Klawf: 36-43 (12 - 14.3%) -- possible 7HKO (If Klawf is at full health, the absolute MAX Adamant Dragonite can do with a non-critical hit combination of Earthquake and Extremespeed is 86.3%. The lowest possible damage that can be done with that combination is 72.6%).
252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Acrobatics (55 BP) vs. 76 HP / 212 Def Klawf: 30-36 (10 - 12%) -- possible 9HKO
252 Atk Ceruledge Bitter Blade vs. 76 HP / 212 Def Klawf: 53-63 (17.6 - 21%) -- possible 5HKO
0 Atk Corviknight Brave Bird vs. 76 HP / 212 Def Klawf: 42-51 (14 - 17%) -- possible 6HKO
164 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 76 HP / 212 Def Klawf: 63-74 (21 - 24.6%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
As you can see, Klawf can withstand a hit or three consistently. With Regenerator, this allows Klawf to be a more favorable switch-in (or to stay in on a switch-in) for numerous Pokemon that it otherwise wouldn't be able to deal with. This additional unexpected turn can provide key momentum for not only your next teammate but would allow you to get up Stealth Rocks or Knock Off an opposing item that you otherwise wouldn't be able to at that moment. So you're likely wondering, "Okay, I see Klawf's physically defensive utility, but what's with the HP EVs, and how can I get around Klawf's middling Special Defense?" The EVs allow Klawf to live some unexpected hits from powerful Special Attackers in the tier. In some of these cases, Klawf can outspeed and either set up Rocks, OHKO or at least heavily damage with STAB Rock Blast or Knock Off their item, crippling them for the rest of the match.
0 SpA Volcarona Giga Drain vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Klawf: 226-268 (75.3 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Amoonguss Giga Drain vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Klawf: 228-270 (76 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Neutral Hits:
252 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Klawf: 237-280 (79 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Iron Valiant Thunderbolt vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Klawf: 150-177 (50 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Iron Valiant Psyshock vs. 76 HP / 212 Def Klawf: 62-73 (20.6 - 24.3%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Psyshock vs. 76 HP / 212 Def Klawf: 92-109 (30.6 - 36.3%) -- 56.5% chance to 3HKO
8 SpA Skeledirge Hex (65 BP) vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Klawf: 124-147 (41.3 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 SpA Gholdengo Hex (65 BP) vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Klawf: 145-172 (48.3 - 57.3%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Hatterene Draining Kiss vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Klawf: 114-135 (38 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Rotom-Wash Volt Switch vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Klawf: 127-151 (42.3 - 50.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
Resisted Hits:
252 SpA Iron Moth Flamethrower vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Klawf: 126-148 (42 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Flamethrower vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Klawf: 99-116 (33 - 38.6%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Klawf: 90-106 (30 - 35.3%) -- 25% chance to 3HKO
8 SpA Skeledirge Torch Song vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Klawf: 76-90 (25.3 - 30%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
8 SpA Torkoal Lava Plume vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Klawf in Sun: 92-108 (30.6 - 36%) -- 50.1% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Iron Moth Sludge Wave vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Klawf: 132-156 (44 - 52%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO
Now that we've talked about its defensive capabilities, let's talk about how Klawf's offensive capabilities (even without investment) are quite potent. Rock Blast acts as Klawf's go-to STAB with Loaded Dice to ensure at least four hits (sometimes five) and works better with this specific set due to its utility as a move + the STAB bonus. Rock Blast has the same accuracy as Rock Slide yet is more powerful with the assured four hits while reaching the same power as Stone Edge with five hits. Additionally, Rock Blast can break both Focus Sash and Substitute Pokemon while providing additional damage or OHKOing them, thanks to the multi-hitting move style. You'd be surprised as to just how much damage Rock Blast Klawf can dish out consistently with 0 Attack and a neutral nature. Of course, Knock-Off's utility is always helpful, but what's surprising is how its damage output is situationally useful and can chunk some common Pokemon in the Meta, even frustrating threats like Defensive Gholdengo.
0 Atk Klawf Rock Blast (4 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ceruledge: 264-320 (74.5 - 90.3%) -- approx. 2HKO
0 Atk Klawf Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ceruledge: 330-400 (93.2 - 112.9%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Klawf Rock Blast (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ceruledge: 264-320 (90.7 - 109.9%) -- approx. 50% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Klawf Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ceruledge: 330-400 (113.4 - 137.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Klawf Rock Blast (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chien-Pao: 264-320 (87.7 - 106.3%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Klawf Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chien-Pao: 330-400 (109.6 - 132.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Klawf Rock Blast (4 hits) vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 272-336 (84.7 - 104.6%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Klawf Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 340-420 (105.9 - 130.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Klawf Rock Blast (4 hits) vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 112-136 (31.1 - 37.8%) -- approx. 91.4% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Klawf Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 140-170 (38.9 - 47.3%) -- approx. 3HKO
0 Atk Klawf Rock Blast (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Moth: 336-392 (111.6 - 130.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Klawf Rock Blast (4 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Skeledirge: 224-272 (54.5 - 66.1%) -- approx. 2HKO
0 Atk Klawf Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Skeledirge: 280-340 (68.1 - 82.7%) -- approx. 2HKO (Assured OHKO with Stealth Rock chip, provided you've Knocked Off Heavy-Duty Boots)
0 Atk Klawf Rock Blast (4 hits) vs. 248 HP / 108 Def Volcarona: 528-640 (141.5 - 171.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Neutral Hits:
0 Atk Klawf Rock Blast (4 hits) vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 132-160 (35.6 - 43.2%) -- approx. 3HKO
0 Atk Klawf Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 165-200 (44.5 - 54%) -- approx. 25.4% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Klawf Rock Blast (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 136-168 (42.9 - 52.9%) -- approx. 6.6% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Klawf Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 170-210 (53.6 - 66.2%) -- approx. 2HKO
0 Atk Klawf Rock Blast (4 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Grimmsnarl: 156-184 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- approx. 3HKO
0 Atk Klawf Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Grimmsnarl: 195-230 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- approx. 99.6% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Klawf Rock Blast (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Meowscarada: 148-180 (50.5 - 61.4%) -- approx. 2HKO
0 Atk Klawf Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Meowscarada: 185-225 (63.1 - 76.7%) -- approx. 2HKO
0 Atk Klawf Rock Blast (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 144-172 (41 - 49%) -- approx. 3HKO
0 Atk Klawf Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 180-215 (51.2 - 61.2%) -- approx. 2HKO
Knock-Off Damage Calculations
0 Atk Klawf Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ceruledge: 170-200 (48 - 56.4%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Klawf Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 104-124 (27.5 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 Atk Klawf Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Skeledirge: 140-166 (34 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Klawf Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 178-210 (56.1 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Additionally, Protect eases the burden of prediction against quite a few Pokemon. This allows you to scout rare tech options on particular Pokemon and helps with mind games and switch prediction. So now we've talked about Klawf's Offensive and Defensive capabilities; what about its utility and speed? With 220 EVs in Speed and a Jolly nature, Klawf reaches a respectable 265 Speed. You may be thinking that 265 Speed from 220 EVs + Jolly isn't much of a speed benchmark compared to some of OU's behemoths; however, it becomes a lot more impressive for a defensive Pokemon in Klawf's position as Klawf consistently outspeeds the following - Klawf Always Outspeeds (Excluding View attachment 484989):
Amoonguss, Azumarill, Breloom, Clodsire, Corviknight, Dondozo, Dragonite (Any Set Not Running 252 EVs + Jolly Nature), Garganacl, Grimmsnarl, Hatterene, Iron Hands, Kingambit, Scizor, Skeledirge, Ting-Lu, Torkoal, Toxapex.
Klawf Outspeeds Specific Sets:
Ceruledge (Bulk Up), Gholdengo (Nasty Plot Defensive), Quaquaval (Bulk Up), Rotom-Wash (Defensive), Baxcalibur (Defensive sets with less than 124 Speed EVs with a Positive Speed Nature or less than 220 Speed EVs with a Neutral Nature)
Klawf can additionally turn a faster Pokemon's speed against it by Terastallizing into Tera Ghost. Tera Ghost provides Klawf with a far superior typing that gives it a critical immunity to Fighting-type moves (along with a situational yet nifty Normal immunity) and resistances to Bug and Poison type attacks. It also does away with Klawf's frustrating weaknesses to Water, Ground, Grass, Steel, and the previously mentioned Fighting-type attacks. This can allow Klawf to live some unexpectedly powerful moves that it wouldn't have been able to with its pure Rock typing, and also allows it to no longer fear specific threats that relied on its typing remaining pure Rock, such as Breloom. Klawf's best partners are Stealth Rock setters, who have an additional free moveslot for different set variants thanks to Klawf handling Stealth Rock duties. From my testing, I've found that some of the best partners for Klawf are Clodsire, Garchomp, Garganacl, Glimmora, Kingambit, and Ting-Lu.
Klawf is a Pokemon that can be hard to use at times, but if you build your team well, it can help your synergistic cores feel a bit of breathing room in OU's chaotic yet somewhat still-centralized meta. Regenerator + Stealth Rock and Knock Off with Loaded Dice and STAB Rock Blast is something no other Pokemon can do. While it may seem like a very niche choice, it's been one of the most valuable Pokemon on a variety of my teams in different playstyles. So what are you waiting for? Give Klawf a try today!
Edit #1: Grammatical fixes + added some additional information context + some likely candidates that I've been testing that I'll eventually make a post for here in the same style as the Klawf post
Niche OU Pokepicks (Currently in testing phase) -
There are others as well, but until I'm farther along in testing/I'm more confident in their niche, I won't be mentioning them.
you do some pretty incredible work. this is an impressive breakdown of a mon that doesn't get nearly enough love even though i've actually seen it work in ou before (though i don't have the stones to use it myself, i know i'm not that great of a player). super hyped for potential vespiquen and jumpluff analyses, they're absolute terrors in randbats and i always have fun using them. have you considered doing an analysis on revavroom? i really want to make that guy work
This is absolutely nuts to me. Iron Hands and Quaquaval are definitely underplayed in the meta, both are good matchups into Chien Pao and can do some serious work. Magnezone getting more usage than Iron Hands is a national security issue.
So maybe I'm insane, but I recently started running into a Dragonite set that ran encore, hurricane, fire spin, and roost. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1776735209
(An example of one such team)
Is this some kind of new set that's rising in popularity?
you do some pretty incredible work. this is an impressive breakdown of a mon that doesn't get nearly enough love even though i've actually seen it work in ou before. super hyped for potential vespiquen and jumpluff analyses, they're absolute terrors in randbats and i always have fun using them. have you considered doing an analysis on revavroom? i really want to make that guy work
Thank you so much! Vespiquen has been a bit harder to work, but Jumpluff has been really useful (Luxray as well). Revavroom is one of those others that I've been testing, but I've been having some trouble with it. I think it'll come down to figuring out the specific role compression required to make Revavroom work, as some of the more "standard" sets I've been utilizing with it have been a bit underwhelming comparatively. Revavroom is definitely on my list of "I'm gonna make this work in OU," though; I love his design, typing, and movepool!
So maybe I'm insane, but I recently started running into a Dragonite set that ran encore, hurricane, fire spin, and roost. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1776735209
(An example of one such team)
Is this some kind of new set that's rising in popularity?
it’s actually been popular for the last month and a half. I’m shocked this is the first time you saw it. You’ll probably see it every 1/10 Dragonite interactions.
View attachment 485033
This is absolutely nuts to me. Iron Hands and Quaquaval are definitely underplayed in the meta, both are good matchups into Chien Pao and can do some serious work. Magnezone getting more usage than Iron Hands is a national security issue.
I am surprised that some of the better counterplay to Chien-Pao are so underused, at least on ladder where you find that thing every 2-3 games. It's not like they're bad enough to cause insane holes in teambuilding, either. Iron Hands is a great breaker that can check some other mons in a pinch, Paldean Tauros (Water and Fire) both completely counter Chien-Pao while providing additional utility in checking Rain and spreading burns with Wisp, and Quaquaval... it exists (it isn't really the best check to Chien-Pao or the best mon right now, but it does provide an offensive check which is rare to find elsewhere and if you don't run that awful Bulk Up Taunt set it can do some work in the right matchup). I think out of these mons the Tauroses are going very under the radar, bulky sets are really great for countering Chien-Pao but I think fast spreads could have some value too for checking stuff like Gholdengo.
So maybe I'm insane, but I recently started running into a Dragonite set that ran encore, hurricane, fire spin, and roost. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1776735209
(An example of one such team)
Is this some kind of new set that's rising in popularity?
i remember someone talking about using this set in spl or some big tournament and then going on the forum and being like "i solved the meta guys, look, everyone's running it now"
it’s actually been popular for the last month and a half. I’m shocked this is the first time you saw it. You’ll probably see it every 1/10 Dragonite interactions.
I broke 1500 recently, so maybe it's just not popular in low ladder. Definitely saw special dragonite in general a lot more in the games i played today.
i remember someone else mentioning this in the forums about a week ago, but yeah trapper dragonite has a nice niche in the metagame right now. being able to trap something and lock it into a move goes a long way with multiscale and natural bulk. it also lures quite a bit of defensive pokemon, notably dondozo, so being able to remove those can open up a game for breakers like chien-pao. fire spin allows dragonite to 1v1 almost anything by simply making full use of its longevity.
View attachment 485033
This is absolutely nuts to me. Iron Hands and Quaquaval are definitely underplayed in the meta, both are good matchups into Chien Pao and can do some serious work. Magnezone getting more usage than Iron Hands is a national security issue.
To be fair I agree with everything you're saying but put some respect on Magnezone's name. Like it will always have a solid spot in OU because of Magnet Pull, but since Dengo isn't affected by it (and it being the #1 used mon), its usage dropped. It still makes Scizor, Kingambit, and Corviknight invalid (as long as they don't tera).
To be fair I agree with everything you're saying but put some respect on Magnezone's name. Like it will always have a solid spot in OU because of Magnet Pull, but since Dengo isn't affected by it (and it being the #1 used mon), its usage dropped. It still makes Scizor, Kingambit, and Corviknight invalid (as long as they don't tera).
Does it really though? Corviknight and Scizor just U-Turn spam out and Kingambit isn't going to come out until its morbin time and endgame sweeps. Kowtow Cleave at +2 is almost a guaranteed OHKO so it can't safely switch in. Unless you're using Tera Fighting I guess, which I've literally never seen.
I'm likely underestimating but trapping Corviknight and forcing it to play super safely with U-Turn is like the only main draw I can see. Which is nice, but more used than Iron Hands? I don't buy it.
Does it really though? Corviknight and Scizor just U-Turn spam out and Kingambit isn't going to come out until its morbin time and endgame sweeps. Kowtow Cleave at +2 is almost a guaranteed OHKO so it can't safely switch in. Unless you're using Tera Fighting I guess, which I've literally never seen.
Yeah Tera was specifically mentioned as counterplay so I didn't bring it up. Though I think a lot of Kingambit are Tera Flying so difficult to say if it helps it much.
To not make this a two liner, there's conversation in the PS OU chatroom regarding HDB and whether its problematic or not. Curious what people think. I don't view it as a large issue because I view it similarly to Covert Cloak where you're choosing to equip counterplay onto a mon for a specific issue, but a surprising amount of people think its unhealthy.
basically toxapex has re-emerged as a popular pivot
by adding STAB psychic to its arsenal, Volcarona can bust pass toxapex, whilst also giving itself more power in the dragonite matchup.
at +2, you can 2hko almost all dragonite with STAB boosted psychic.
the dragon matchup is pretty good: You’re also OHKOing dragapult and some Garchomp. You lose to roaring moon, however it’s been trending down in usage.
here’s a sample replay, showing the OHKO on tox once the defensive spread was scouted.
Yeah Tera was specifically mentioned as counterplay so I didn't bring it up. Though I think a lot of Kingambit are Tera Flying so difficult to say if it helps it much.
To not make this a two liner, there's conversation in the PS OU chatroom regarding HDB and whether its problematic or not. Curious what people think. I don't view it as a large issue because I view it similarly to Covert Cloak where you're choosing to equip counterplay onto a mon for a specific issue, but a surprising amount of people think its unhealthy.
Personally I do think if people don't experiment outside of them or become obsessed with every mon equipping them it can be unhealthy or not learning to pace EH weak Pokémon in certain situations [After being knocked off for example], but I don't see how their usage in general or for choice mons is problematic.
I think people are just not understanding these items were added recently because people had complaints about previous style of play. I'd argue it's the opposite and that EH stacking is more unhealthy (I'm not saying EH are unhealthy only those who go for max stacks of everything) than the opposite. Counter play is a good thing to such a style or any style of play really to a certain degree.
I think Psychic is also nice into the Iron Moth match up, because otherwise you struggle with its future self. Not sure I would say its the best set, but its an interesting lure. I still think Bulkarona is its best bet until a decision around Chien Pao is reached, but Tera Ice is also cool into Dragonite.
At this point yeah just list off every Tera and go "yeah Volcarona can make this work in this matchup".
Personally I do think if people don't experiment outside of them or become obsessed with every mon equipping them it can be unhealthy or not learning to pace EH weak Pokémon in certain situations [After being knocked off for example], but I don't see how their usage in general or for choice mons is problematic.
I think people are just not understanding these items were added recently because people had complaints about previous style of play. I'd argue it's the opposite and that EH stacking is more unhealthy (I'm not saying EH are unhealthy only those who go for max stacks of everything) than the opposite. Counter play is a good thing to such a style or any style of play really to a certain degree.
The argument is that hazards are always used on pretty much every team, and every mon likes taking no damage from hazards. HDB invalidates hazard stacking as counterplay against bulky mons that are difficult to remove without them, and make Volt-Turn far too safe. To be fair, examples like HDB Chien Pao and Dragonite were mentioned as problematic and I'm inclined to agree with the assessment, but not the assumption that HDB is the problematic part.
I think Psychic is also nice into the Iron Moth match up, because otherwise you struggle with its future self. Not sure I would say its the best set, but its an interesting lure. I still think Bulkarona is its best bet until a decision around Chien Pao is reached, but Tera Ice is also cool into Dragonite.
At this point yeah just list off every Tera and go "yeah Volcarona can make this work in this matchup".
The EVs are a little old school from last gen, what’s everyone’s advice on speed requirements for a bulky spread, any important insights with benchmarks?
this beats Cinderace at +1, but loses to meowscaranda
The EVs are a little old school from last gen, what’s everyone’s advice on speed requirements for a bulky spread, any important insights with benchmarks?
this beats Cinderace at +1, but loses to meowscaranda
Paldean Tauros (Water and Fire) both completely counter Chien-Pao while providing additional utility in checking Rain and spreading burns with Wisp, and Quaquaval... it exists (it isn't really the best check to Chien-Pao or the best mon right now, but it does provide an offensive check which is rare to find elsewhere and if you don't run that awful Bulk Up Taunt set it can do some work in the right matchup). I think out of these mons the Tauroses are going very under the radar, bulky sets are really great for countering Chien-Pao but I think fast spreads could have some value too for checking stuff like Gholdengo.
While those mons can counter most chien paos, chien paos learns psychic fangs, which it could run on a banded set instead of sacred sword. So i disagree about them completely countering Chien pao, as Chien pao doesnt even need to tera to hit them for se damage.
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tauros-Paldea-Fire: 164-194 (46.3 - 54.8%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
The one Klawf set that I would use in OU is AV, but it requires having Hippowdon on the same team so that the special bulk is high, allowing Klawf to wall some ghost and fire types (they can Tera ant use grass moves, of course, but that means they have wasted their Tera on a Klawf) and spam Knock Off.
Espathra @ Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power
- Tera Blast
- Protect
I feel like with Chi-Yu gone, I've been able to use this a little more freely. It plays fairly similarly like the other tera types, retaining most of the offensive matchups, but you can now deal with notable Steel types like Scizor and Gholdengo much more easier and potentially surprise your opponent thinking that Espathra can't do anything back.
Definitely not the best type defensively in comparison to Fighting / Fairy and some MUs are less reliable without them (Tera Dark Chien-Pao, Roaring Moon, Ting Lu, Hydreigon), but just thought that this can be an interesting alternative.
Offensive calcs:
+1 0 SpA Tera Fire Espathra Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 282-332 (89.5 - 105.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
+1 0 SpA Tera Fire Espathra Tera Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight: 296-350 (74.1 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 0 SpA Tera Fire Espathra Tera Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight: 392-464 (98.2 - 116.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+1 0 SpA Tera Fire Espathra Tera Blast vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Tera Steel Scizor: 314-372 (92.3 - 109.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+1 0 SpA Tera Fire Espathra Tera Blast vs. 112 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 300-354 (81.3 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0 SpA Tera Fire Espathra Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Iron Treads: 348-410 (90.6 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+1 0 SpA Tera Fire Espathra Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Chien-Pao: 368-434 (122.2 - 144.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 0 SpA Tera Fire Espathra Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Dark Chien-Pao: 184-217 (61.1 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0 SpA Tera Fire Espathra Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Orthworm: 422-498 (122.6 - 144.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Defensive calcs:
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Tera Steel Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fire Espathra: 107-126 (27.1 - 31.9%) -- 45.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Tera Fire Espathra: 135-159 (34.2 - 40.3%) -- 40.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
