Rejected SV OU Terastallization Tiering Discussion, Part II

[Finchinator]

Prior Terastallization Tiering Discussion | Initial Terastallization Suspect Test

Terastallization remained fully legal in SV OU after a suspect early this generation; this suspect was among the most popular and close suspects of all time, making Terastallization a recurring tiering topic. This thread will be used to discuss Terastallization's tiering as a second suspect becomes a possibility. Please note that this is not a guarantee at the moment, but rather an acknowledgement that further discussion is necessary and a suspect is possible.

We promised to look back into Terastallization after the release of Pokemon HOME regardless of the first suspect's verdict prior. To follow suit, in our second tiering survey since the drop of HOME, we asked our playerbase if they believed any tiering action was needed. Their response was the following:

Overall, 950 players believed tiering action is necessary while 574 players believed tiering action is not necessary. However, we tend to pay the most attention to the "qualified" demographic, which consists of players who perform well on the ladder, qualify for recent suspect requirements, and/or participate in official tournaments or the final rounds of circuit tournaments. Of 136 qualified players who responded, 88 supported action on Terastallization while 48 opposed action -- this is approximately 65% support.

This data is absolutely not binding as Google Forms are an unofficial way of collecting data, the metagame continues to evolve, and the question was purposefully made vague to potentially segue into a larger discussion, such as this one. However, we do believe this data is probable cause enough to at least open a topic on the matter for the time being without publicly committing to anything yet.

Here are some things to discuss and parameters for discussion:

• Fringe options such as a singular Terastallization captain and only allowing STAB Terastallization types did not receive enough support last time and nothing has changed to make them worthy of discussing more this time. They are off the table as well as anything else that was pitched initially that never gained any traction.
• Banning Terastallization outright is an option that can be discussed.
  • Banning of a generation's core mechanic is something that should be taken very seriously and require clear evidence, but it is absolutely not being dismissed.
• Restricting Terastallization via disclosing Terastallization types at Team Preview, which is a component of the official formats, is an option that can be discussed.
  • We are aware that many people doubt the impact this may have on mitigating any issues and people who are both in favor of or opposed to this option are encouraged to share their point-of-view.
• The status quo of keeping Terastallization fully legal and unrestricted is an option that can be discussed.
• Tera Blast is a move that has led directly to the bans of Volcarona, Regieleki, and Espathra; it is not deemed overly problematic in the current format, but people can discuss it if they deem it worthwhile to.
• We are not interested in using the National Dex suspect test(s) as a reference point at this time.
• People are free to discuss if they think a suspect should occur, what format the suspect should be if it is to be held, and anything else that they find appropriate within reason. Use your best judgement as anything out of line may be subject to deletion or infraction.

Please share your thoughts on Terastallization and the best way to proceed in this thread. Thank you.

 

[Vert]

the next test should be black & white imo

i am against a team preview restriction. the open team sheet comparison never made sense to me as if you ever played VGC you would see how smogon changing the way gamefreak's mechanic operates is in no way comparable to having your entire hand revealed bar ev spreads. in terms of gameplay, i also fail to see how a team preview restriction addresses any of the concerns the full ban side has. while this option allows you to game-plan for more versatile tera users such as kingambit and iron valiant better, it also introduces an entire new set of issues which will replace old ones in future tera discourse. some of these include an increase of pure 50/50's, creating mind-games on key turns which wouldn't have existed previously, and players abusing the system by using X tera-type without Y-move. an example of this is tera-grass glimmora but without energy ball. while it is true everything i said here is theory (no one has played with team preview-tera enabled), what i can say is not theory is that this restriction is pointless. it's a "compromise" with the full ban playerbase who will continue to complain about the mechanic even if said restriction goes through. obviously everyone is entitled to their opinion but personally i believe pro-restriction players are unviable and i will not be going back and forth with y'all

ban tera blast is an option i always used to laugh at but i have become more open-minded to it as of late. it is very precise, cutting out a sizable portion of the bullshit anti-tera players dislike about the mechanic. i am aware it does not address all of their concerns, but at least it makes more sense to me than team preview since we can free volcarona and regieleki. that said, i still don't think this should be entertained right now; it deserves a suspect test separate from this one if it gains enough support from our playerbase.

it is no secret that i am pro-tera and will be voting unrestricted, but i will save this topic for when the formal suspect test thread goes up. all i wanted to highlight with this post is why i believe there should only be 2 voting options this upcoming test. thanks for reading.

 

[Magcargo]

If a Terastalization suspect happens soon and no action is taken, will that prevent future suspect tests in the DLC1 / DLC2 metagames?

If a Terastalization suspect happens soon and it is banned, will a retest of it still be possible in the DLC1 / DLC2 metagames or will it be permanently banned for the rest of the generation?

 

[Finchinator]

If a Terastalization suspect happens soon and no action is taken, will that prevent future suspect tests in the DLC1 / DLC2 metagames?

If a Terastalization suspect happens soon and it is banned, will a retest of it still be possible in the DLC1 / DLC2 metagames or will it be permanently banned for the rest of the generation?

Any future action going either direction is on the table and we are not locked into any agenda either way currently. It is possible for a second and/or third suspect this gen. It is in no way a guarantee though.

 

[Srn]

the next test should be black & white imo

i am against a team preview restriction. the open team sheet comparison never made sense to me as if you ever played VGC you would see how smogon changing the way gamefreak's mechanic operates is in no way comparable to having your entire hand revealed bar ev spreads. in terms of gameplay, i also fail to see how a team preview restriction addresses any of the concerns the full ban side has. while this option allows you to game-plan for more versatile tera users such as kingambit and iron valiant better, it also introduces an entire new set of issues which will replace old ones in future tera discourse. some of these include an increase of pure 50/50's, creating mind-games on key turns which wouldn't have existed previously, and players abusing the system by using X tera-type without Y-move. an example of this is tera-grass glimmora but without energy ball. while it is true everything i said here is theory (no one has played with team preview-tera enabled), what i can say is not theory is that this restriction is pointless. it's a "compromise" with the full ban playerbase who will continue to complain about the mechanic even if said restriction goes through. obviously everyone is entitled to their opinion but personally i believe pro-restriction players are unviable and i will not be going back and forth with y'all

ban tera blast is an option i always used to laugh at but i have become more open-minded to it as of late. it is very precise, cutting out a sizable portion of the bullshit anti-tera players dislike about the mechanic. i am aware it does not address all of their concerns, but at least it makes more sense to me than team preview. that said, i still don't think this should be entertained and deserves a suspect test separate to this one if does gain enough support from our playerbase.

it is no secret that i am pro-tera and will be voting unrestricted, but i will save this topic for when the formal suspect test thread goes up. all i wanted to highlight with this post is why i believe there should only be 2 voting options this upcoming test. thanks for reading.

The way I see it, you can separate the changes preview brings into 3 categories:

1) The issues that tera preview actually solves: the ability to make a gameplan on preview rather than stay in the dark about what tera type your opponent is running. I think having this ability is a good thing and will probably make the meta feel a lot less volatile. This addresses a concern that I have, and I am on the full ban side.

2) The issues that tera preview supposedly makes worse but was always there: The increase in 50/50s will not be significant. We always knew ival/enamorus was gonna tera into some type that resists sludge bomb from glowking, we knew that kingambit could tera into a type that resists fighting, etc. These guessing games already exist and are deemed acceptable by the pro-tera crowd. What really changes, now that you know the ival is tera ghost, the enamorus is tera steel, and the kingambit is tera flying? Not that much. If anything, you are bringing a total shot in the dark (great tusk vs kingambit that could tera flying/fairy/dark/etc) into a 50/50 (great tusk vs kingambit that could tera flying), which is an IMPROVEMENT.

3) The issues that tera preview will allegedly create: Is tera grass glimmora without energy ball really..an issue? Are people actually going to look at the benefit of this bluff (I might scare something) and choose this despite the cost (I am running a suboptimal tera)? Is it really worthwhile to run, idk, tera fighting on your specs pult to scare the kingambit that you could wisp or flamethrower anyway? Or would you rather go with a tera that'll be more useful, like fairy/ghost/dragon/etc? This concern is purely speculative and seems to be inconsequential.

while it is true everything i said here is theory (no one has played with team preview-tera enabled), what i can say is not theory is that this restriction is pointless.

This line is especially...idk bro. You can't have it both ways. Either you accept what you're saying is theory or you pretend you're from the future and you've played a meta that doesn't exist. We don't know that this restriction is pointless until we try it.

In your previous big post on tera, you complained that preview would invalidate lures like tera fighting blast dragapult to hit kingambit. And yet now, you are more open minded with a restriction on tera blast, which would also invalidate the lure you describe. Do you want these to exist or not? Why are you open minded about this at all, when you also say that you are unwilling to compromise with the full ban playerbase? Why is the majority of the playerbase (which supports action on tera) "unviable?"

I am willing to compromise with the vocal minority of players who want tera unrestricted, and I believe that we should adjust our suspect tests if there is significant community support for it. I think the voting structure we used last time is perfectly fine, and we should continue to allow voters to try out restrictions.

I would be happy to go back and forth with yall. Thanks for reading.

 

[ausma]

As a Terastal fan and a council member I personally believe it deserves restriction. However, if the test is to either ban or not ban it, I personally err toward no ban.

The primary issue with Terastal is sudden matchup shifting. In many WCoP replays, there is very little use of same type Tera to bolster offensive presence, with the main exceptions being Pokemon that aim to clean (Tera Dark on Kingambit, Tera Fighting on Banded Zamazenta, Tera Fairy on Choice Scarf Enamorus). Simply put, this is because matchup shifting and the element of surprise regarding what ways you can accomplish this is an insanely powerful tool for offensive Pokemon to have access to. There is a great degree of variance involved with the mechanic because of the potency of this trait, and while you can extrapolate a Pokemon's Tera type depending on the structure, there are not one, not two, not three, but many viable Tera type choices that a Pokemon can use successfully, with certain Tera types often being paired on certain sets either for 1: coverage in Tera Blast 2: a synergistic defensive typing that improves a matchup into x or y threat or 3: raw power. I don't personally think this caveat is broken because there are very few situations where the activation turn is sudden enough to be impossible to predict. That being said, there are some dynamics to this type shifting that I personally dislike, primarily the ability to snipe threats with Tera Blast, artificially inflating your movepool to properly take on whatever you want without the limitation of your existing coverage. Tera Blast aside, this can also be taken advantage of with niche defensive Tera types that can't be as readily expected. This issue to me is the issue on which restrictions should be considered, instead of the entirety of the mechanic. I believe reaching a solution that's 100% perfect is not possible, but we can get close if we can agree on what the key problem of Tera is and what can be done to address it. So, let's unpack that.

Tera Blast

I personally believe removing Tera Blast from the metagame is the cleanest choice and a very precise option that tackles the main problem I personally have with Tera. It is not the most effective, nor is it going to substantially change how Terastal is used in the SV OU metagame, but I believe Tera Blast is the catalyst behind a lot of what makes sudden matchup shifting so egregious. Compared to launch, there are legitimately a ton of viable ways in which Pokemon can use Tera Blast that aren't all that niche or fringe. From the S, A, and B ranks all of Kingambit, Dragapult, Dragonite, Heatran, Walking Wake, Basculegion, Iron Moth, Moltres-Galar, Sandy Shocks, Lilligant-Hisui, and Tornadus-T (with many more potential options) are capable of cleaving past standard checks of their choice with a perfect coverage or all-encompassing option. Of Pokemon that have been banned, Espathra, Volcarona, and Regieleki are broken with Tera Blast. Volcarona particularly is a rather unfortunate casualty as without Tera Blast it has a much healthier dynamic on the metagame, providing the tier with an extra option into Iron Valiant and Enamorus.

When a Pokemon is limited to its core movepool, matchup shifting only really takes it as far as its movepool enables it to. Kingambit doesn't necessarily need Tera Blast because Steel and Dark-type STABs are very self-sufficient, for example, but without Tera Blast, Volcarona and Espathra's checks become far more consistent, and they can only really delay the inevitable of losing the 1v1 with some extra HP/PP taken away since they don't have the option to, as easily, overwhelm them with pocket coverage. This is particularly important because it means that, regardless of a Pokemon's Tera, you know what the Pokemon is capable of beating by merit of its natural kit, and it's far more clear-cut to respond to certain Pokemon that can potentially spiral out of control with Tera Blast to round off their coverage.

Yes, Tera Blast does not exactly solve the key problem of Tera, but to me that's not really the point of removing Tera Blast. Instead, I believe that this restriction is more of a compromise of sorts that focuses on allowing Tera to cleanly remain in the tier and allows players to focus more on predicting and playing around Tera opportunities instead of being randomly sniped out of the blue or allowing Pokemon to beat Pokemon they shouldn't be able to.

Team Preview

I believe this option is fine, too, but it's not exactly that great and arguably can worsen some dynamics and the skill expression of playing around Tera.

This is a bit more of an aggressive option that instead aims to focus more on limiting the variance in defensive matchup shifting. This has its merits considering Pokemon like Garganacl, Iron Valiant, Baxcalibur, Zamazenta-H, Ursaluna, and Gholdengo (for example) that viably run numerous Tera options and can punish players that don't have a good idea on resources to preserve in order to combat certain Tera types. Obviously, this choice isn't going to do anything against Pokemon like Roaring Moon, Regieleki, or Dragonite that have gameplans that don't care at all about you knowing what Tera type they are. But, again, I believe the focus of a Tera restriction should be on the variance behind matchup shifting, which Team Preview actually does address.

Information is power in Pokemon, and knowing what Pokemon your opponent is capable of beating 1v1 with x or y Tera type can play a heavy role in how you manage your resources and thus in what ways you can handle opposing Pokemon. The way I see it is that knowing a Pokemon's Tera type is similar to knowing what role a Pokemon plays and what Pokemon they naturally beat with their type/movepool. While you can't always stop that Pokemon from running you over, you obviously know your opponent's Gholdengo is going to be able to beat your Amoonguss in the 1v1 and know to avoid using Spore liberally. In a similar vein, you can ascertain that a Tera Flying Heatran will be able to respond to your Great Tusk on preview and play accordingly around it. This could also address Tera Blast as you can extrapolate its presence on a Pokemon based on how independently useful Tera Blast is to be worth dedicating their Tera type to, but it doesn't really change anything for Pokemon like Espathra or Regieleki imo.

In my eyes, Team Preview gives far more control in how you deal with your opponent's Tera to the player, which, while it doesn't always stop certain Pokemon from doing what they do, allows you to at least play more deliberately around certain Pokemon and manage resources in a way akin to past generations. However whether this is a good thing or instead introduces a new form of variance that instead limits the skill expression behind Tera I believe is uncertain without seeing it in action.

___

Hopefully this gives a bit more perspective on the merits I see behind the restrictions and why I believe restrictions are a viable option. At the very least, I hope this post encourages you to consider a different angle on how you approach your opinion on Tera and how we should handle it.

 

[awyp]

So I've voted in the first tera suspect test and I feel like my opinions have developed differently over time.

Terastallization is extremely centralizing as a mechanic. Gen 9 will be defined by this mechanic in a sense where a Pokémon's type will change to prevent the obvious kill as a break glass method / trump card, but to also make a Pokémon's type the same (single type) and power up its stab which allows for a great deal of power (Example can be Baxcalibur [Dragon]).

I want to preface that if tera was to be banned, a solid amount of mons (not all because that's not the point of this) that have been banned would be back in the tier undoubtedly and I think people need realize that if they haven't. Tera pushes a lot of mons that without tera would be considered a top rank mon out the tier, like we'll (probably) be seeing with Kingambit if tera stays as it.

A suspect test should occur simply based on how close the voting was last time and how everyone literally wanted a recount (lol), but also how it's a constant outcry on the SV OU discussion and outside like PS chats and on Discord. This just makes sense to have a test (redux).

If tera were to be tested again, I wouldn't be optimistic about the results which is the reason I'm willing to gauge my argument this way. I do believe if it's a black and white vote (Ban or Keep as is) that tera will stay as is, I doubt that there will be an overwhelming support for a ban (60%) for all qualified voters. We need to have restriction options in order for all of us to come to an agreement as a community.

I voted ban the first time around and I will be changing the direction of my vote this time around (if suspect happens). I personally think to keep both sides happy and playing Gen 9 in the future is key / ideal that we should agree on restricting tera. Personally I do think Tera Blast puts Tera over the top but I can deal with it if it stays. What will actually make a difference is Tera Preview.

I'll try to build a picture. Opposition has Kingambit on the field, hasn't terastilized yet (you do not know their tera) could be Dark, Fairy, Flying, or Fire. Depending on what you have on the field lets say Dragapult locked in on a Choice Specs Shadow Ball, you're forced to switch out so you go to Defensive Tusk. If you know the oppositions tera, you're able to confidently go for the Earthquake, Ice Spinner, whatever you feel like. These are game changing scenarios, if you guess wrong on a Swords Dance it can be considered game at that point. We need to change the mindset of what will they tera to and when will they tera to straight up WHEN will they tera only. It will balance the game much more, you can start only counting one variable versus multiple variables against opposing mons that are broken with tera. Tera Preview is literally a handshake agreement in the beginning of the game and it does not mess / touch with the mechanic at all, it just because another information on the screen we can use to understand what the potential game plan of the match is. Unpredictability =/= Competitiveness, it just becomes another variable that players have a hard time to take into account regardless of skill level. (Look how many tera types Valiant has below (10, no one's using Fire)

Sure some of these teras are a bit outdated (for now), but depending on the shifts that happen that can change in a week or 2. I'm done with the whole argument to remove tera completely, people want to keep it and I'm fine with it. But I've seen everyone get tooled by tera, and it will continue to happen and the main reason it happens is because you do not know the tera type at the beginning of the game. You can make that inference mid game when you see the composition of the sets and items but there's never a guarantee.

Anyway I was about to go off on a tangent but that's fine for now.

 

[Magcargo]

If Tera were to be retested, I believe that the two restrictions (banning Tera Blast & Tera types on team preview) should be considered. However, both of these options being on the same suspect test may be a bit much. I believe there were issues in the first suspect test due to many players believing the "Action" option would result in a ban. Furthermore, some players may want both Tera Blast banned & Tera types shown on Team preview, which seemed to be a scenario the first suspect test did not account for. How could these issues be tackled in a Tera retest?

 

[Drifting]

First off I wanted to mention that we do actually have a challenge code for Tera Preview made by my friend grape tylenol and Marty which we used for a slot in LC Winter League

/challenge (username), gen9ou @@@ Tera Type Preview

Which looks like this, I don't know how many people know this exists so if you want to actually play a few games with your friends to get some (albeit limited) experience with preview, here it is.

***

If the above didn't make it obvious, I do think that Tera Preview is the best compromise available to us. It's been made very clear by forum posts, the first OU Tera Suspect and even the recent Natdex Tera Re-suspect that there's a significant portion of the casual and even non-casual (shoutouts Vert) player-base that is extremely attached to the Tera mechanic, and will fight to keep it. I'm inclined to agree with awyp that a strict Ban vs No Ban vote would probably result in the status quo being maintained, and then what? A third Tera suspect when DLC releases would come off as quite pathetic, frankly. Even if we were able to wave a magic wand and remove Tera, I think going straight for a ban of such a defining mechanic when we have clear compromises like Preview would be extremely alienating to the players who enjoy Tera.

Even so, it's also clear that at this point that things are quite untenable. OU is extremely volatile and unsatisfying from what I've seen and experienced in tournaments and the top 50 of ladder, the usage tiers from what I've seen are ridiculous (my RUPL team basically only loaded HO every week iirc), Ubers is preparing to take its own action against Tera, and as someone who's other main tier is LC I can tell you first hand that it's miserable. The clear majority of qualified players wanting something done speaks for itself.

I believe preview is that something. It won't suddenly fix every issue, and the turn-to-turn randomness fundamental to Tera will still be headache inducing, but even if it made things 5% better that's enough to justify going for it. Being able to safely click Earthquake with Tusk against a Ghost Kingambit on its own would be a miracle for so many endgames, and getting a hint to what set a Valiant might be on preview would be similarly helpful. It would be a good start, and even if it was all we did it'd still be a clear improvement over the current state of affairs. I know a lot of people are fear-mongering about the hypothetical potential for "preview bluffs", but I also think these claims are kinda bogus. To use the example of a Tera Fighting Dragapult with no Tera Blast to scare off Kingambit floating around this thread:

1. If my opponent wants to use a shitty Tera-type as some kind of mind-game instead of the far more dangerous Dragon or Ghost tera, be my guest.

2. This "mindgame" is literally the current state of the meta. We already can't switch our Kingambit into Dragapult safely because it could be Tera Fighting, the "bluff" is just what is already happening (except the difference is right now the Dragapult can be Tera-Dragon while bluffing Fighting and simply blow you away with Draco/Darts).

3. I don't think anyone has even been doing this in tours with preview slots like LCWL (not OU but tera works the same way), I could be wrong though and I'd love to see any examples.

I think that our best bet is to accept that the first suspect might have gone in a way many didn't expect, and move on to a compromise solution instead. Tera Blast preview is also an option I suppose, but I don't like it because it really doesn't address the core problems of Tera that is exploited by mons like Kingambit/Valiant/Enamorus/Garg (which rarely run Tera Blast) to be overpowered. I think preview is just a lot cleaner also, but that's of course subjective.

With all this said, I wanted to point out that the "VGC does it" argument for preview is terrible. VGC doesn't do it for any balancing reason, it's to stop cheating. It's more of a cool coincidence than any meaningful argument of precedent, and portraying it as such is unhelpful.

 

[BigFatMantis]

I think a full ban should be totally off the table if tera were to be re-suspected - not because of anything specific to the mechanic, but purely because there is absolutely no way a full ban has nearly enough support to win out on any test. The survey results show that almost 40% of people actually don't think ANY restriction is necessary, nevermind a full ban. If you want to run a clean suspect with only plausible options, then don't even have full ban on the table. It's pretty clear that even the most pro-ban individuals realize that a full ban will not win a vote, which is why they are going to argue instead for a restriction (e.g. tera preview) in hopes of somewhat lessening the mechanic's grasp on the tier. Having a full ban option is just going to clutter things unnecessarily. At the very least run a survey and see if there's any reasonable hope that a 60% total ban vote can be achieved. If you can barely push this over 40% on a survey then it seems like a totally pointless option to have on the suspect. An honest test should only have options that are plausible to win out.

Speaking of being honest, I agree with what Drifting said about the tera preview option and how we should stop talking about how VGC uses it. Trying to justify tera preview simply because it's part of the open sheets process in VGC is an extremely dishonest way of pushing for this restriction. The open sheets process has a bunch of information in addition to tera types on there and is intended to prevent cheating, not to balance out your entire team by revealing literally all of its info. If anything, just say that tera preview is a "hand-shake agreement", which is actually more honest and true, and the only real argument on how to justify having this restriction while staying somewhat consistent w/ tiering policy. I think it's very dicey though and, while it is in fact a handshake agreement, technically so is a lot of other things that we can do, such as a "handshake agreement" to reveal practically anything about your team. We may be taking this term a bit too far when realistically it was probably just intended to handshake to not bring broken stuff (i.e. don't tera at all, which would make more sense from a tiering perspective). Using a restriction like this is still pretty unprecedented and I'm not sure it does anything more than put a bandaid on a wound for pro-ban players anyways.

Banning tera blast is the only restriction that I think makes sense from a tiering perspective. I'm not sure if it's really necessary, but at least it addresses some of the issues people have with tera (namely, any pokemon being able to randomly blast you with any given coverage move), and the only collateral damage from this would be some pokemon becoming "worst" which, well, seems ok? It at least makes the most sense to just try this first if we're going to do any restriction, as it's the only one that is going to make sense tiering-wise and will have the smallest possibility for any negative impacts or unforeseen issues.

 

[shooting star]

I have no strong opinion on how busted Terastallization is, except that the previous voting format is in my opinion flawed because it gives voters in favour of no action more power in manipulating the final outcome of the vote. If we follow the previous format, and the outcome look something like this:

Total number of voters: 100

In favour of restrictions: 60

• Team preview: 35
• Ban Tera Blast: 25

No restrictions: 40

• Outright ban: 40

Then unless I am mistaken, there is a supermajority in favour of restrictions but yet the final outcome is to outright ban Tera. Are the results of the suspect test truly representative of the larger playerbase then?

However, we would likely be making a mistake to present all possible forms of action as separate options, since voters in favour of no action will win, when the reality is that those in favour would likely prefer one action or the other as opposed to no action. Hence, with regards to the suspect format, voters should first express whether they are in favour of restrictions or not, and only those in favour should be given the chance to specify their preferred form of restriction.

 

[Eeveeto]

I have no strong opinion on how busted Terastallization is, except that the previous voting format is in my opinion flawed because it gives voters in favour of no action more power in manipulating the final outcome of the vote. If we follow the previous format, and the outcome look something like this:

Total number of voters: 100

In favour of restrictions: 60

• Team preview: 35
• Ban Tera Blast: 25

No restrictions: 40

• Outright ban: 40

Then unless I am mistaken, there is a supermajority in favour of restrictions but yet the final outcome is to outright ban Tera. Are the results of the suspect test truly representative of the larger playerbase then?

However, we would likely be making a mistake to present all possible forms of action as separate options, since voters in favour of no action will win, when the reality is that those in favour would likely prefer one action or the other as opposed to no action. Hence, with regards to the suspect format, voters should first express whether they are in favour of restrictions or not, and only those in favour should be given the chance to specify their preferred form of restriction.

What you are proposing isn't fair. There are users (like me for example) who oppose to any action at all, but if action is finally taken, they should still be able to vote the one action they feel is best. If there are 2 separate questions (action/no action and if action, what action) everyone who gets the right to vote on them should be able to vote on both.

 

[shooting star]

What you are proposing isn't fair. There are users (like me for example) who oppose to any action at all, but if action is finally taken, they should still be able to vote the one action they feel is best. If there are 2 separate questions (action/no action and if action, what action) everyone who gets the right to vote on them should be able to vote on both.

Except that they didn't vote for Action in the first place? Action and No Action are mutually exclusive events, you cannot have both. This is akin to voting for "no, but actually yes", which is to say the least undemocratic.

I trawled through the voting records for the Terastallization suspect test, and out of the 143 people who voted no action, an overwhelming 121 of them (84.6%) voted Team Preview. Meanwhile, the results of those who voted Action are less lopsided: out of the 206 people, 108 (52.4%) voted Team Preview, while 77 (37.4%) voted outright Ban. What do the results mean?

• While the community is thankful that Team Preview is still the majority vote even in the Action camp, the results are not statistically different. Team Preview is still not a guarantee; the possibility of an outright Ban is still very much real.
• As such, some of the "No Action" voters may be worried of an outright Ban vote and thus engage in tactical voting by voting No Action even though deep down they may prefer a Team Preview outcome. This is dangerous because those people are casting a vote that does not reflect their true feelings and in turn creating an outcome that they do not truly want, hence the controversy.

Removing this additional privilege will force voters to take a stand and deliberate whether they truly want action to be taken or not, and thus hopefully reduce any form of manipulation or tactical voting.

 

[Nat]

TLDR: I am in favor of tera staying unrestricted, but would settle for tera blast being banned. I don't intend to squabble with people, only to say my piece. This post will sound a lot like a suspect thread post on the validity of tera itself, but I don't think that's a bad thing. It will be presented as such as I think it will be easiest to start with defending unrestricted Tera as a whole, and later transition into why I think a tera blast ban is the true fair middle ground, if one is needed.

Tera, to me, is a valid and consistent form of skill expression. Navigating your own tera, your opponents tera (yes, even kingambit), teambuilding consistent teams in a tera metagame and understanding the meta enough to properly ascertain game-routes are all legitimate skills that will translate to your success or lack thereof in games. There are players within tournaments & ladder that have showcased this.

mind gaming went 9-2 in SPL and is currently 3-0 in wcop, a trendsetter in teambuilding not only offensive gimmicky teams but also very balanced teams or even fatter teams. xavgb is currently 10-3 on the year and also won the no johns tour, a player utilizing fairly balanced teams overall. Vert won OST and also is having a nice wcop showing while using pretty much exclusively offense. I have had a great year too, with a 9-2 spl, 3-1 wcop, top 8 ost/stour, and one of only two alts to attain a 90 gxe on the current ou ladder. (sorry for this absurd flexing it will make sense below) I bring myself up to say it's largely been using balance, but sometimes fatter or more offensive teams, nothing too definitive. On the ladder, there's people that extremely consistently are in the top 5,10,50, whatever (such as vert, myself, storm zone, ayevon, pinecoishot, tournament test alts, players I might not even know, etc) using a myriad of team styles. I namedrop all of these players to say there's consistent, provable success not only due to the skills outlined in the previous paragraph, but also with just about any team style possible.

Tera is not some mystical randomness element that can't be consistently handled through learned skill. Literally any team style is viable with tera, and I would be hardpressed to admit one style is better than the rest right now. Its uniqueness shows itself in play & building, enhancing the skill ceiling of play while enriching your creativity in the builder. If you find yourself consistently losing to tera or because of tera mechanics, I'd argue it's because you aren't versed enough in the aforementioned skills. They are skills that are certainly new this generation, but again it really, truly is not some thing where you throw your hands up and are doomed because tera is broken. The folks who struggled the most in gen 9 SPL were those who didn't adapt to these skills, an entirely provable statement if you went and watched their games. I have no doubt this is a fact that is also true for people who struggle to progress in the ladder as much as they did in generations with less variables. There are a number of less-peaking but still consistently performing ladder/tour players that exhibit the above traits using a variety of structures & find success for it as well, but the point is made with only a few.

Outside of factors that essentially amount to skill issue, I think it'd be kind of a meme to see us ban the generational gimmick for two gens in a row, which will ultimately span 5+ years. I voted ban>no ban>preview in the previous suspect, but with time I've felt tera really is not as bad as dynamax was. Unlike dynamax we've had ample time to adapt to tera and I'd loathe seeing it removed/seriously altered. Preview to me is the death of gen 9, a concept that lowers the aforementioned skill ceiling yet also makes it less enjoyable in a serious environment. Creativity in the builder is invariably stifled, as the reward of tera-innovation is instead presented to your opponent immediately. More unnatural decisions about if your opponent will tera/if you will in more specialized situations and other interactions will occur that you wouldn't otherwise be privy to, without fail. In effect, play and building both would be hampered. I've changed my opinion a lot on tera since the start of the gen but preview being unviable is the lone constant for me. Vert is probably right that it'd just be a gateway for people to slide down the slope of eventually banning tera, too. Going through 3+ forms of generational gimmick allowance in a single gen would be pathetic. More than anything I hope this option is not slated. I think slating two forms of restriction is a colossal, absurd mess. But, I would be more open to tera blast being slated.

To me, tera blast is a fair middle ground that keeps the pillars of what makes Tera good for a metagame in place. It removes arguably the most problematic element, the sudden gain of a unique stab function that can win the game on the spot moreso than other tera mechanics, and especially less so due to diligent game-planning. I'll add some tournament replays to showcase what I'm talking about. SPL week 4 by me, taking advantage of dreigon/roaring moon typically walled by rotom. The recent Stours finals that showcased fire-blast bax, getting rid of balloon gambit for bulk up tusk while also forcing a counter tera. There are surely others but these are two of the higher profile games that come to mind. Tera-blast as an offensive option is the most dramatic form of tera altering a gamestate. It is less in your control than other elements as an opponent, though still does reward creative building. I'm pretty indifferent on it staying or not, but I think it's an element that should be looked into if any as a restriction.

I haven't lost to kingambit tera'ing in 35+ tour games this year (no really, go check) and I'm fairly sure some of the other names I've listed are in the same boat. Even on upper ladder it isn't some beats-all winbutton. I adamantly believe it tera'ing defensively to a type you don't know beforehand just isn't as pressing as is being presented. I bring it up as it seems to me like a hallmark of peoples complaints about tera. It's a great mon, but if you practice the skills as described above it isn't close to insane. Burning your tera early in a spot you really can't afford to and then losing to kingambit late is one example I see happen more than any other. Knowledge of what you can afford in game routes is a cornerstone of performing well in gen 9.

I'd prefer Ban vs No Ban but i'd settle for Ban vs No Ban vs tera-blast ban, which seems to be a relatively common theme in this thread by folks who lean on both sides. Please do not include tera-preview, and please do not include a 4-option test.

 

[ABR]

If there is a test, it should be between doing nothing and preview.

A full ban would be the most overtly disastrous decision that would kill SV immediately. Our hand was forced with SS and it has sort of made its identity around not having a dedicated mechanic, but we can’t do that twice. Tera is also nowhere near as broken as dmax.

I also feel like, in practice, games are not that random and types are reasonably predictable. It’s still a skillful tier that contains consistent players. I used to think no restriction was uncompetitive but then I actually tried playing. Don’t fuck this one up please.

Also, banning terablast is epic but like as a separate test.

Relevant

 

[njnp]

Tera gives a fantastic skill gap (shoutout CrashinBoomBang who made me think about this) that I've appreciated in single-game play. A poorly timed tera or even early tera that you feel puts you ahead early in a game can backfire very quickly. In high-level tour play, you can't go into cruise mode because late in a game your opponent may have a Tera that can reverse the course of your match. Making sure you set the proper teras on each of the 6 Pokemon you choose in teambuilding is very important as well and can have a huge payoff vs a player not as informed.

I personally think Tera in the tier forces the player base to be educated, much more active, and overall aware of what's going on in the tier. I've seen the metagame adapt week by week in high-level tour play and to a lesser extent on ladder based on tera. Unlike in previous generations, you can't just see a popular 6 and safely assume "Oh that's standard sd gambit", because your opponent could've changed it to tera fairy terablast gambit as they felt you were weak to it. I find Tera to not be the most problematic thing in the tier and currently should be embraced as I appreciate how it lengthens the skill gap in this tier.

 

[MAVERICK SHOOTERS]

I totally agree with Vert 's post on this topic and seems like a lot of other ppl too,though would still like to state my opinion:
We should only have do not ban and ban as options for suspect,tera preview is absolutely miserable and creates thousand more problems than it solves,Here are some examples:
-With preview a mon can run a tera type which it usually only runs with tera blast like tera ground iron moth,BUT it wouldnt have to run tera blast anymore since now you can bait you have tera blast otherwise why would you be tera ground and so oppo will play around you having tera blast over some other coverage and then at end you reveal the other coverage and kill a mon which wouldnt of died in usual scenario and it's game.This is gonna be insanely common and an level of 50/50 on each turn which has no need to be there
-This favours offensive teams to an immeasurabely high degree since now the person can look at opposing person's tera types and figure out a mon that completely 6-0s em,while usually there would be a lot of uncertainty in if a mon wins or not because of unknown tera's and give's oppo a chance to fake a tera he doesnt have to create chances or make oppo tera to help vs an opposing mons expected tera,but now if they know what tera the oppo has they may also get to save their tera.
-This also takes away an insanely skillful part of sv ou which is TERA SCOUTING AND TERA KNOWLEDGE,which with tera preview is completely gone ,the reason some of the best sv players are so consistent is because tera scouting and tera timing is something they know extremely well and have played a lot of matches to understand what mon runs which tera in what type of team structures,that's what sets them apart from the rest,we have no reason to take away this away when it's one of the highest skill ceiling things in current sv which the top players have spent a lot of time honing.

Some Extra Point's that I would like to say:
-Random tera's are basically as uncommon as it can get on high ladder or big tourney's ,random tera is something that's only seen in low ladder,nowhere else,if a person is using a specific tera on a mon trying to bait kill something,THAT'S GOOD TEAMBUILDING and has valid logic on why the person is using it not random and as I said with tera scouting you can bait most of these specific tera's too.Almost all the tera's are deducable on a team by just analysing the structure of the team and how they are playing it,all that requires for you to be able to deduce it is be a good skilled player AND HAVE A LOT OF GAMES PLAYED IN SV to gain experience in the tier and understand what's ran where,If you expect to be good in sv just because you are good in other gen's and think this is a bullshit random mechanic,you are simply wrong,try investing time in the metagame with a lot of games and you will realise ALMOST NOTHING IS RANDOM.
Why expect to be good in a metagame if you aren't willing to spend time for it? - And with preview this whole skill set of knowledge,timing and good teambuilding is gone.


Hopefully these examples were enough to show that tera preview is an insanely bad decision and shouldn't even be considered for even having as a option on suspect,I am open to tera blast ban being considered as a option but like many other ppl believe it should a separate suspect and not be in this one.

 

[Don Vascus]

I hate tera and what not and i do believe we should apply the same treatment we did to dmax, but im not gonna waste words that.


I will say however, that the truly worst aspect of tera isnt the increased volatility, nor is it the many costly guessing and mind games it causes (what if i dont tera flying my gambit this turn and you click ice spinner instead of eq), nor the lose lose scenarios it causes because pokemon are much harder to deal with when they get to have a third stab to pick and choose their checks, nor is it the fact that it doesn't cost you anything to tera, its the fact that we cant get to a consensus about it.


Every time we test tera it ends up with a single digit vote difference, yet the opinions on each are as polarized as they could ever be. It really does feel like it was meant to split us further apart.

 

[Finchinator]

I personally do not think that Tera Preview does much to move the needle here, and I feel it impedes upon the skillful elements of Terastallization as well as the importance of metagame knowledge in a competitive landscape. Given this and a pattern of responses to the recent survey, I included the below in the OP:

We are aware that many people doubt the impact this may have on mitigating any issues and people who are both in favor of or opposed to this option are encouraged to share their point-of-view.

And I’m glad people have been giving their input on it.

I feel like initially it was a cool concept that could’ve provided a middleground solution back during the first suspect early on — it was especially popular after it was announced to be a part of the official format late last year. I am glad it was a part of the first suspect and not surprised by the support it received then, but Tera Preview aged poorly as a concept as people got more familiar with Tera in the format.

Obviously there is still a lot of discussion to have as other responses to the survey and even in this thread think Tera Preview could be a good solution and I am not dismissing it, but I find it a bit misguided to say it’s a perfect solution (or particularly close to one).

I intend to post expanded thoughts on the mechanic as a whole as well as Tera Blast in the near future.

 

[quziel]

This is not a new idea, but we should be quite careful on the structure of the poll. Think the easiest approach would be ranked pairs between all the options, but given that we need a 60% threshold to do tiering action that obvs can't work (unless you wanna do 1.5:1 for any option vs "do nothing").

A) Do you think action should be taken on Terastalization (60%+)
B) If action is to be taken on Terastalization, what action should be taken:
i) Ban Tera Blast
ii) Implement Tera Preview
iii) Other Tera restriction that doesn't come to mind.
iv) Ban Terastalization

Will almost def have a different result, even if its just margins, to

A) Do you think Terastalization should be restricted (60%+)
B) If Terastalization is to be restricted, in which manner should it be restricted:
i) Ban Tera Blast
ii) Implement Tera Preview
iii) Other Tera restriction that doesn't come to mind.
C) do you think Terastalization should be banned (60%+)

Not trying to explicitly endorse either, as frankly I'm not a high level OU player, but just that the structure of the poll will significantly affect results, and placing restricting Tera as a separate manner from banning Tera may be worth doing, as the two are not the same question.

 

[w_r]

I’ve been reading through the responses and have a few thoughts to share, tera has been in the discussions of providing the opportunity for the “worse player” to get the better of the “better player”?? I’m not entirely sure what this is supposed to mean…Anyway something that is often overlooked is how it rewards “bad teams”, this might all seem a bit subjective so I’ll explain. Tera as it is now makes teams that function on surprise or the one tricky pony archetype as I like to call it even better with the added surprise element (to me a consistent team is something that performs well even if your opponent knows your sets/evs) this is more relevant to tour games as ladder is often built on consistency and forces standard tera types on mons most of the time. The BO1 format is the standard for the official team tours on this site which is already a pain to prepare for coupled with tera shenanigans…. well, you can guess the rest. This leads me to believe adopting the preview option for tera the most feasible route to tackle the problem. Pokemon is an information warfare and getting this information on preview seems better as you can weave a game plan accordingly rather than react and rely on intuition or metagame knowledge?? as some people might call it.

Some people who responded in the thread questioned this route quoting an increase in 50/50’s and whatnot, I don’t really agree with this if anything it adds an extra layer of certainty and now you know for sure it can turn into “X” tera type and you only need to guess if it has “Y” move whereas doing nothing means you need to guess both “X” and “Y” not sure how that’s better.

Tera blast is another interesting subject that should be discussed separately and free’s up the option of unbanning Regieleki , Volcarona, Espathra and reduce collateral damage in a tera inclusive metagame. The viability of stored power bullshit takes a hit with its ban which is another added benefit of nuking the move.

Moving on I would like to see tera being preserved in sv ou but I’m strongly against how it currently exists as a game mechanic. This thread seems pointless as people seem to be quoting hypotheticals including me to make arguments that suit their agenda or w/e. We should be providing options that we have already seen instead of proposing stuff that people have never seen and expect them to imagine a metagame in their heads and come up with valid points. Make a separate ladder with tera on preview and then reopen the thread instead of a 2 week suspect or some half assed way to look into a core mechanic that defines the metagame to reach a suitable conclusion to this thread.

Peace.

 

[Amaranth]

any poll system that asks "do you want to take action" followed by "what kind of action do you want to take" is probably pretty silly, given that there are many people who would vote ban > no ban > preview tera if given the chance.
to me it is absolutely imperative that whatever restriction is implemented is actually preferred by a large enough cut of the playerbase. making people vote on a vague "action vs no action" first could result in many absolutely farcical outcomes.

i feel like a good way to pose the question would be comparing No Action to every individual solution. eg:
Q1) Do you prefer No Action, or Ban Terastalization?
Q2) Do you prefer No Action, or Show Tera Types on Preview?
Q3) Do you prefer No Action, or Ban Tera Blast?
Q4) Do you prefer No Action, or <other Tera restriction>?
etc
this way you ensure that whatever action is taken is actually preferrable to no action.
+
you ask people to rank their preferred types of 'action', in case multiple options pass the 60% threshhold. this is to ensure that everyone's preferences are properly expressed. (suppose a scenario where Ban Tera Blast passes with 70% and Preview Tera with 65% - if you were to just pick Ban Tera Blast, you'd be removing the ability of players who voted yes to both or no to both to express their preference between Ban TB or Preview, and that would be bad.)

please do not botch the structure of this vote. this will change SV forever. do it right

 

[TyCarter]

Going to say that if the option to vote does go beyond ban and do not ban, which could be a reality and would most likely include tera preview from the sounds of it. As someone who did vote in the previous tera suspect, do not go through with the whole action vs no action bullcrap before proceeding to the actual vote from the last tera suspect IF it is not a cut and dry option of ban and dnb. It was kinda jank if not downright dogshit which Amaranth highlighted in their post. Either rank the options straight up or just have the eligible voters vote for one of the three (or whatever number of options that's more than 2 it winds up being) if it were to occur.

Suspecting tera blast should be its own matter for another time and packaging that option into this one would not really work out for this suspect even if I do think its a reasonable idea on its own merits independent of tera.

Tera Preview, I'm on board with the idea of just implementing tera preview on the ladder for the duration of the suspect test just so you would have an actual frame of reference on how it works in practice for OU considering the entire OU playerbase would get an actual shot of playing with a metagame that runs that and given we've more or less played with an unrestricted tera mechanic since release. And ok yeah a 2 week sample size would seem small kinda but it's definitely a more productive option compared trying to theorycraft what a tera preview metagame would look like if people wish to see some form of restriction.

 

[CrashinBoomBang]

What I don't understand is why arguments about Tera always see so much animosity and ad-hominem. Yeah, it's a polarizing mechanic for sure, but the kind of stuff I have to read borders on absurd. How much everyone preferring the other side sucks at this game (which is especially funny when the no-action side has people like Vertex, Nat, NJNP and blunder - all of which are really good at Gen 9 in their own right, some of the best), how much of an idiot you have to be to not see how broken Tera is, and some guy in the OU thread pushing his opinion of "we all know unrestricted Tera is broken, everyone should realize we need at least team preview" down my throat. Ad-hominem statements and discrediting other people's opinion because "I am right" tend to be signs of terrible arguments after all... It's funny because I've probably felt a similar way about Gen 8 as other people currently do about Tera. I think it's the worst OU tier we have available by a landslide, borderline unplayable, and most games are unwatchable by Turn 10 as people swap between their Regenerator mons. I know this thread isn't about Gen 8, but I think the same reason I actively hate that tier and love tera is pretty deeply connected to the reason so many people think it's a fine tier while thinking Tera is the most skillless trash ever created.

The "50-50s" (lol), being able to change your type on the fly, being able to power up STAB moves to 2HKO certain walls making it much harder to straight up defensively check things, luring Pokemon by swapping your typing... I personally think most of those things aren't just actively not bad, I think they're really good things. I believe Gen 9 OU to be the most skillful tier we have ever played, and it's not even close. It's no mistake that one mistake can turn your entire game on its head, and it's really easy to fuck up and get swept by a surprise Tera and getting swept. While many thing it's frustrating, I... personally have never felt that way? I know I'm probably more introspective about my own game and what I could have done better than your average player, but I don't think I've ever felt "cheated out of a win" by Tera or anything like that. In every single case I've experienced, I realized I could have done something better, either on the turn itself or before. It actually surprised me just how exact you have to be about playing, preserving the right Pokemon, and how much it punishes people who don't play exact Pokemon.

As NJNP said in his post, I think Tera raises the skill gap enormously, and I personally think that's a good thing. I think encouraging people to build themselves, putting their own Tera types to cover for certain threats and matchups while consciously thinking about how the team functions and having to plan it all out in-game are very much good things. I'm definitely not someone who condemns people stealing teams or whatever - I used plenty of stuff I didn't use myself in my time - but I also think that things that get people out of their comfort zone and actively playing is something we want, instead of 90+% of the teams being shared. You can still share teams, of course, but if you've ever watched someone inexperienced play Gen 9 OU vs someone who has played a lot then they probably got slaughtered. It's pretty obvious that SV OU rewards people willing ot put in time and effort and actively playing, and I think that's legitimately awesome. I got absolutely run over in SPL, not even necessarily playing all that badly but definitely misjudging Teras, and finishing with a 3-7 record. It was... an awesome wake-up call, really. I knew I didn't grind enough to keep up with the best players, and I got punished for it in a big way. SV OU has challenged me in ways other tiers never have, and Tera is definitely The reason it did that. It's a mechanic you can only really learn by doing, no amount of theoretical nonsense is going to teach you how to make the most of your Tera. You just have to go out and do it. And, as a bunch of good players posting about wanting to keep it unrestricted, it feels like lots of them are now reaching that level.

Isn't all of that something we should encourage? This is competitive Pokemon, and I think everything that encourages individual teambuilding, really engaging with the game, and learning the ins and outs is inherently a good thing. I think the player who uses their Tera often wins the game, and I absolutely consider that a good thing: It shows that you've truly mastered the mechanic, and everyone unfamiliar with Tera and its intricacies will lose to those who spend their time really learning the ins and outs of the mechanic and how to use it best. I consider this to be a different case than both broken Pokemon (where one, single element clearly warps the tier around it so much that it has to go, whereas with Tera there's limitless possibilities within the mechanic itself; I will gladly take a few more bans to keep the mechanic and its ideas alive) and even Dynamax (to me, this one is arguable, but I don't find the mechanic to be interesting whatsoever; it's just a bunch of stat boosts stacked on top of a Pokemon, compared to something that opens up limitless possibilties such as gaining a new STAB type). I think the ones who put in the time and work and engage with the tier itself should be rewarded, it's a competitive game after all. You need to put in time to stay competitive.

To me, it feels like people always want this game to be more like chess for some reason. I'm not really sure why this is even a comparison; while there's nothing like some RBY chess, it's comparing an imbalanced game with incomplete information to a balanced (mostly, I know whoever goes first has the advantage, but it's nothing like actually changing Pokemon) game with complete information. The only really similar things are maybe some end game lines where plays are forced but whatever, but the point is, it's a different game. Pokemon has always had tons of variables, intuition based plays, luck, and other stuff chess doesn't even emcompass. It's not like Tera is even a luck based mechanic or anything either, it's literally outplaying your opponent with the tool given to you unlike anything we've ever seen before.

The thing about the midway options is that they probably don't really satisfy either side in the end. Tera Preview, to me, is just a tool to remove what exactly Tera requires: Engaging with the tier, the metagame, and generally just playing Pokemon. Yes, there's always going to be some variance when you don't know what they will Tera into, but I prefer that and the cool stuff you can do over taking away half the point of the mechanic. Also, most people's problems won't even be solved because the stuff people really hate about it barely even changes with preview in play. I don't "mind" the option that much, but it's a lazy and bad solution in my opinion, and a net negative. Removing Tera Blast also doesn't really solve many issues, but removing it at least wouldn't hurt the integrity of the mechanic and how it works, but I still think it's literally fine and won't truly satisfy either side in the end either. So, yeah, if it hasn't been obvious, I believe unrestricted Tera is the best thing for the tier moving forward.

Also, unrelated to all of this: I love how Gen 9 forces you to actually play more offensively and check stuff more offensively. I think it's a skill more players could make more use of, and I love that SV OU generally encourages offensive play. I don't even think fat options have no chance in this generation either, at the end of the pre-home metagame we had one of the most common teams in tournaments be the one with Dondozo/Scream Tail/Great Tusk/Toxapex/Hydreigon or Baxcalibur, something I would definitely call a rather bulky team, after a bunch of time and metagame developments. Anyway, this is definitely amplified by Tera, but this feels like a pretty offensive Gen in general, and I personally love it!!

At the end of the day, it's gonna be about what you want out of Pokemon. You can have something with limitless possibilities that's always actively evolving, encourages smart play both in and out of the game, usually rewards the better player, and can open up completely new options we've never had. Or, you can play what we've had for the past few generations. That's personally not something I want to do, but I get that people who want just that just really, really hate Tera. It's doubtful I'll be able to convince any of the true Tera haters anyway, most people seem to have made up their mind by now, and it's really just about how you view the game.

Tl;dr: keep unrestricted tera, SV OU is the most skill based gen by a landslide so far

 

[Magcargo]

What I don't understand is why arguments about Tera always see so much animosity and ad-hominem. Yeah, it's a polarizing mechanic for sure, but the kind of stuff I have to read borders on absurd. How much everyone preferring the other side sucks at this game (which is especially funny when the no-action side has people like Vertex, Nat, NJNP and blunder - all of which are really good at Gen 9 in their own right, some of the best), how much of an idiot you have to be to not see how broken Tera is, and some guy in the OU thread pushing his opinion of "we all know unrestricted Tera is broken, everyone should realize we need at least team preview" down my throat. Ad-hominem statements and discrediting other people's opinion because "I am right" tend to be signs of terrible arguments after all... It's funny because I've probably felt a similar way about Gen 8 as other people currently do about Tera. I think it's the worst OU tier we have available by a landslide, borderline unplayable, and most games are unwatchable by Turn 10 as people swap between their Regenerator mons. I know this thread isn't about Gen 8, but I think the same reason I actively hate that tier and love tera is pretty deeply connected to the reason so many people think it's a fine tier while thinking Tera is the most skillless trash ever created.

The "50-50s" (lol), being able to change your type on the fly, being able to power up STAB moves to 2HKO certain walls making it much harder to straight up defensively check things, luring Pokemon by swapping your typing... I personally think most of those things aren't just actively not bad, I think they're really good things. I believe Gen 9 OU to be the most skillful tier we have ever played, and it's not even close. It's no mistake that one mistake can turn your entire game on its head, and it's really easy to fuck up and get swept by a surprise Tera and getting swept. While many thing it's frustrating, I... personally have never felt that way? I know I'm probably more introspective about my own game and what I could have done better than your average player, but I don't think I've ever felt "cheated out of a win" by Tera or anything like that. In every single case I've experienced, I realized I could have done something better, either on the turn itself or before. It actually surprised me just how exact you have to be about playing, preserving the right Pokemon, and how much it punishes people who don't play exact Pokemon.

As NJNP said in his post, I think Tera raises the skill gap enormously, and I personally think that's a good thing. I think encouraging people to build themselves, putting their own Tera types to cover for certain threats and matchups while consciously thinking about how the team functions and having to plan it all out in-game are very much good things. I'm definitely not someone who condemns people stealing teams or whatever - I used plenty of stuff I didn't use myself in my time - but I also think that things that get people out of their comfort zone and actively playing is something we want, instead of 90+% of the teams being shared. You can still share teams, of course, but if you've ever watched someone inexperienced play Gen 9 OU vs someone who has played a lot then they probably got slaughtered. It's pretty obvious that SV OU rewards people willing ot put in time and effort and actively playing, and I think that's legitimately awesome. I got absolutely run over in SPL, not even necessarily playing all that badly but definitely misjudging Teras, and finishing with a 3-7 record. It was... an awesome wake-up call, really. I knew I didn't grind enough to keep up with the best players, and I got punished for it in a big way. SV OU has challenged me in ways other tiers never have, and Tera is definitely The reason it did that. It's a mechanic you can only really learn by doing, no amount of theoretical nonsense is going to teach you how to make the most of your Tera. You just have to go out and do it. And, as a bunch of good players posting about wanting to keep it unrestricted, it feels like lots of them are now reaching that level.

Isn't all of that something we should encourage? This is competitive Pokemon, and I think everything that encourages individual teambuilding, really engaging with the game, and learning the ins and outs is inherently a good thing. I think the player who uses their Tera often wins the game, and I absolutely consider that a good thing: It shows that you've truly mastered the mechanic, and everyone unfamiliar with Tera and its intricacies will lose to those who spend their time really learning the ins and outs of the mechanic and how to use it best. I consider this to be a different case than both broken Pokemon (where one, single element clearly warps the tier around it so much that it has to go, whereas with Tera there's limitless possibilities within the mechanic itself; I will gladly take a few more bans to keep the mechanic and its ideas alive) and even Dynamax (to me, this one is arguable, but I don't find the mechanic to be interesting whatsoever; it's just a bunch of stat boosts stacked on top of a Pokemon, compared to something that opens up limitless possibilties such as gaining a new STAB type). I think the ones who put in the time and work and engage with the tier itself should be rewarded, it's a competitive game after all. You need to put in time to stay competitive.

To me, it feels like people always want this game to be more like chess for some reason. I'm not really sure why this is even a comparison; while there's nothing like some RBY chess, it's comparing an imbalanced game with incomplete information to a balanced (mostly, I know whoever goes first has the advantage, but it's nothing like actually changing Pokemon) game with complete information. The only really similar things are maybe some end game lines where plays are forced but whatever, but the point is, it's a different game. Pokemon has always had tons of variables, intuition based plays, luck, and other stuff chess doesn't even emcompass. It's not like Tera is even a luck based mechanic or anything either, it's literally outplaying your opponent with the tool given to you unlike anything we've ever seen before.

The thing about the midway options is that they probably don't really satisfy either side in the end. Tera Preview, to me, is just a tool to remove what exactly Tera requires: Engaging with the tier, the metagame, and generally just playing Pokemon. Yes, there's always going to be some variance when you don't know what they will Tera into, but I prefer that and the cool stuff you can do over taking away half the point of the mechanic. Also, most people's problems won't even be solved because the stuff people really hate about it barely even changes with preview in play. I don't "mind" the option that much, but it's a lazy and bad solution in my opinion, and a net negative. Removing Tera Blast also doesn't really solve many issues, but removing it at least wouldn't hurt the integrity of the mechanic and how it works, but I still think it's literally fine and won't truly satisfy either side in the end either. So, yeah, if it hasn't been obvious, I believe unrestricted Tera is the best thing for the tier moving forward.

Also, unrelated to all of this: I love how Gen 9 forces you to actually play more offensively and check stuff more offensively. I think it's a skill more players could make more use of, and I love that SV OU generally encourages offensive play. I don't even think fat options have no chance in this generation either, at the end of the pre-home metagame we had one of the most common teams in tournaments be the one with Dondozo/Scream Tail/Great Tusk/Toxapex/Hydreigon or Baxcalibur, something I would definitely call a rather bulky team, after a bunch of time and metagame developments. Anyway, this is definitely amplified by Tera, but this feels like a pretty offensive Gen in general, and I personally love it!!

At the end of the day, it's gonna be about what you want out of Pokemon. You can have something with limitless possibilities that's always actively evolving, encourages smart play both in and out of the game, usually rewards the better player, and can open up completely new options we've never had. Or, you can play what we've had for the past few generations. That's personally not something I want to do, but I get that people who want just that just really, really hate Tera. It's doubtful I'll be able to convince any of the true Tera haters anyway, most people seem to have made up their mind by now, and it's really just about how you view the game.

Tl;dr: keep unrestricted tera, SV OU is the most skill based gen by a landslide so far

Regarding the ad-hominen attacks, as someone who has made many cringey, emotional posts in the OU thread, I think its an issue that can go both ways. In general, the attitude towards this mechanic is quite polarizing & I do believe that several anti-tera players have made decent arguments against the mechanic, though there is also a fair deal of mudslinging from their end as well. Over time, I have also seen certain players gravitate towards discussing the mechanic in a more civil way as well, so there is certainly progress on that front, even if it may not entirely seem that way due to the high volume of opinions.

I am worried about discussions to heighten voting reqs, however, though that may just a skill issue on my end.

In general, I do think forming a consensus around Tera is difficult due to the varying ways it can be used & whether certain things it enables is even an issue to begin with. For example, is Garganacl an issue? If it is, then it would certainly be enabled by Tera letting it beat certain Pokemon like Gholdengo and Great Tusks easily. However, its viability has fluctuated drastically, during the pre-Home metagame, where it could be a liability at times due to being Sub bait for Pokemon like SubNP Hydreigon and Orthworm. However, currently (unless something has changed) it is quite effective due to Covert Cloak seeing a drastic dip in usage. Are entry hazards a problematic element in the metagame? If so, Tera ties into that due to its ability to turn Pokemon like Ting-Lu into powerful spinblockers, preventing opponents from Spinning with their hazard removers like Tusks. However, some teams don't even care about hazards due to HDB being very powerful (arguably more powerful than last generation due to lower Knock Off distribution) & Tera makes certain anti-Hazard Pokemon like Hatterene stronger. Is Kingambit a problem? Well Tera ties directly into that due to granting it a potentional free SD turn to steal the game with. However, Tera also grants it critical defensive utility vs other Pokemon, while also, ironically, allowing a wider pool of Pokemon like Polteageist to beat it (which people also site as potentially problematic for this reason). The idea of Tera Blast being broken is also debatable, as its a dead slot in most cases, while in other cases, it allows a Pokemon to steal the game away.

SV is one of the more dynamic metagames thusfar, with different playstyles & pokemon being popular nearly every week. Defining what's definitively problematic in the metagame is quite hard. Tera's high skill ceiling adds on to it, as whether it can be an asset or a liability drastically depends on positioning. Some games, Baxcalibur can setup DD on my CB Dragapult and steal the game. Some games, Tera prevents my non-Tera late-game cleaner from sweeping (i.e Urshifu-RS going Tera Water vs Acrobatics Sneaseler. Sometimes, Tera'ing opens up a pathway to victory, by allowing something like Chien-Pao to take less Rocks damage, while other times, it closes win-condition pathways by removing the initial defensive utility of something like Gambit, or removing Urshifu-RS's Sucker Punch resistance if it is Tera Water. Tera isn't really similar to anything we've had before since it is a fundamental mechanic on the level of switching. Z-Moves are not comparable since its an item slot you had to commit to, while Tera is flexible until you press the button, the same way you would when switching.

All this rambing is to say that the way Tera shifts the game vary from match-to-match, hence why it elicits so many emotions. I do edge on the side of preserving it, but I do believe that SV's changes & powercreep are thorough enough that even in the event it was banned, the OU metagame would be drastically different from last generation. No Transfer moves, limited recovery PP, etc. would still give it a different flavor compared to prior metagames.