Metagame SV RU Metagame Discussion (DLC Edition | December Shifts)

[Feliburn]

So we finally got the big drops from the DLC impacting PS tier usage. Here's a list of all the Pokémon we've gained:

As you can see, this is one of the most balanced big shift we've had ever since we started getting big DLC drops last generation.

Since it's such a big tier shift, the council decided to vote on the current RUBL Pokémon, to see if any of them are worth trying in the current metagame. Here are the votes:

RUBL Votes

With that, Iron Jugulis, Lycanroc-Dusk & Politoed have been unbanned from RUBL! Tagging Marty & Kris to unban them on PS! & thanks in advance.

The reasoning behind these 3 being unbanned is that the power creep & bulk of the tier increases yet again, making them respectable breakers in their own but not quite as OP as they once were in older metagames. Lycanroc now competes with the powerful Tyranitar as rock types, with one being bulkier while the other one is stronger. With options like Hippowdon, Slowbro, Chesnaught & more available to us, Lycanroc won't be getting the OHKOs it was getting in the very first SV RU metagame.

Iron Jugulis finds its biggest enemy, Tinkaton, once again. While Jugulis has solid coverage options and decent stats off the bat (not to mention Booster Energy), our options right now to handle it are so many, that it wants more than 4 moves to properly break every team. Between Tyranitar, Tinkaton, Milotic, Fezandipiti, Hippowdon, Diancie, Vaporeon, & many more, it finds itself in a position where it has to pick the right moves to beat any of these walls, and this isn't even mentioning the offensive options like the newly freed Lycanroc-Dusk, Slither Wing or Kilowattrel that can also hit it super effectively.

Finally, Politoed now completes the full weather war in RU. Between Ninetales, Tyranitar, Hippowdon and maaaaaybe Abomasnow, there are plenty of options to just handle the playstyle off the bat. While Politoed is also an enabler and not a breaker, our current tools to handle the rain abusers are far from mid, with Milotic, Water Absorb Quagsire, Wo-Chien, Bellibolt, Vaporeon, Slowbro, and priority users like Slither Wing & Bisharp to revenge kill the frailer breakers, we felt like it was worth seeing if rain can be kept in line.

This does not mean that these Pokémon are here to stay, as we will take action again if we notice unhealthy elements. Similarly, the RUBL Pokémon are not there forever, as this was a very superficial vote, and we will revisit some of these options in depth in the future (expect tiering surveys eventually). So feel free to voice your opinions on these unbans!​

 

[Elec-ant1234]

HE GOT UNBANNED! HE REALLY DID HAVE THAT DAWG IN HIM!

fr though it's gonna be interesting to see just how the tier develops; especially since we got the gen 5 weather wars back

 

[WilhelmTheOkay]

/ / /

Very interested to see how all this weather stuff shakes out, could lead to a very unique metagame or a bunch of broken stuff, going to be cool.

 

[Ento]

Genuinely curious as to why Hawlucha got such a sound rejection. I understand it was quickbanned before, but that was when the tier was far lower power. Many of the dropped pokemon are what kept it in check in UU before, which was cited as a reason for why Iron Jugulus was unbanned.

Honestly I don't even take issue with it still being banned, I am just genuinely curious why it's basically unanimous, when things like Iron Leaves, Zarude, and Regidraco were way more contentious.

 

[EviGaro]

Genuinely curious as to why Hawlucha got such a sound rejection. I understand it was quickbanned before, but that was when the tier was far lower power. Many of the dropped pokemon are what kept it in check in UU before, which was cited as a reason for why Iron Jugulus was unbanned.

Honestly I don't even take issue with it still being banned, I am just genuinely curious why it's basically unanimous, when things like Iron Leaves, Zarude, and Regidraco were way more contentious.

Put simply, it's because of terrain teams and Polteageist got pretty much the same treatment for that as well. Staple of the archetypes like Armarouge and Maushold are already very borderline as it is, with community calls to do something about these two fairly common, so Council didn't really want to take the risk with unbanning two mons that are by themselves, extremely borderline with how easy it is for them to setup with the tools they have.

 

[Ento]

Put simply, it's because of terrain teams and Polteageist got pretty much the same treatment for that as well. Staple of the archetypes like Armarouge and Maushold are already very borderline as it is, with community calls to do something about these two fairly common, so Council didn't really want to take the risk with unbanning two mons that are by themselves, extremely borderline with how easy it is for them to setup with the tools they have.

Ahh, fair enough, that's a sensible reason. Terrain was never really that much of a problem in UU, hence why I didn't consider it, but looking at Ru, it's a WAY frailer tier overall, especially without Amolamola or Salamance around. I can see how Hawlucha could be a problem here, actually.

 

[Forest Guardian]

Hello guys!!!!
These shifts are super interesting with a lot of mons that look like tier staples (hippo, ttar, milotic, chesnaught, talon, donphan, etc.)
I have tried most of the drops bar a select few (looking at you maushold, dipplin and Liligant). So here are my thoughts on the 'mons.

The Brokens(?):
:- Dear God. I haven't used it but I have played against it and this is a nightmare. It forces every team to have tera ghost/ghost type or a helmet mon. Though I wouldn't say they are maus-proof, the former fears Technician bite while for the latter I have seen a few protect pads maus and they don't see bad though it does come at the price of wide lens.
:- This just feels weird. It feels broken on paper so I am counting it in however I haven't seen very many of them. Even if it's not broken (unlikely) it will still tear up the meta something fierce. Flying types are ok checks, so are mons like vern and dragalge until it pulls out ice spinner. Sleep powder with cc and ice spinner with a defensive tera don't seem very bad either. I will have to try these two out to form a better opinion.
So yeah, these two seem the most likely to get the boot and keeping an eye on them seems good.

The Real Deals:

:- We all know we wanted this and we got it! Ttar feels like a staple to me, the classic offensive sets (dd and cb) seem likely to wreck the tier aside from maybe hippo. Rocks sets might not be bad with ttar getting Koff.
Its bulk, typing and stats are just amazing and I doubt it would be less than anything but a staple. It's not all rosy for ttar however as aside from the former princess of ru we also got another great offensive rock type with the unbanning of . So ye competition is fierce.

Chandelure my beloved! I am so happy to see you here. Most people are comparing to and yeah they are similar, pretty much the same actually. Though I think with this shift the meta might just get a lot more bulk centric and guess what, chandelure doesn't care about most of these mons and the ones it hates, and , are crippled by wisp or hit hard by a specs energy ball. I am sure it can irk out some niche. Sub+Cm also seems poised to give stall a good beating especially with tera.

:- Another previously ru mon and something I expect to be quite good. Spikes are always nice and it beats the three new hazard control (, , ). and answer and oh answer too! Good qualities a spiker should have. The talon mu seems rough, though nothing some edgy stones can't solve.

:- A non grass type removal? And that too with regenerator, koff and u-turn.? Sold.

:- I genuinely do not know though seems like a krook check.

:- I have grown to appreciate donphan after getting into sm lately. + it's a non grass spinner and electric immune. It also has koff and also has priority ice sha- oh wait no I mean ice type coverage with ice spinner. Decent physical sponge, can also try av sets I suppose.

:- RU discord must know how much I love fez and i am thrilled to see it here. It's also an interesting typing (sorry ) and a good ability. The set I have tried is a pivot set though some other sets might be good too like toxic + taunt, sub + cm (we have quite a few passive mons fez can set up on like , , , etc.), sub + tox or a np + 3a (innovate) or even sd (wooo). I am very very excited to have it here!

:- Mama don is here! This just feels like a mudsdale lite, a blanket check to most physical threats in the meta. Pure ground typing, great physical bulk, ok special bulk, and importantly, instant reliable recovery in the form of slack off. I have only tried spdef sets and they seem fine though physical sets might be better or might just depend on team composition.

:- A pure water type that can't pass wishes or sweep you with calm mind has great special and physical bulk and instant realiable recovery? Great. Oh it also has flip turn to pivot? Amazing. Do I need to say more? Milotic is a saviour.

:- Alolan Muk brings a colourful and squishy poison type to the tier. It's a very interesting mon with moves like toxic and koff and an excellent typing with great stats. I have tried av sets and they seem fine (though I said this with too). Most checks to it might not last that long thanks to knock off + poison touch. I think sneaky was very interested in this mon so here you are. Speaking of sneaky it has priority too!

:- It feels so damn sunny today. Wonder why.....oh it's ninetales. Ninetales brings auto sun to the tier, something not unseen in the tier but unlike , ninetales has a blend of speed and utility hard to come by in the form of healing wish and moves like wisp and encore. As a stand alone mon it might be decent, it might not be decent, only time will tell. Btw is a menace with .

:- Ground type Woohoo, water immune Woohoo, stall Woohoo.

:- I am unsure about this but feels ok with growth shenanigans, I prefer special sets.

:- Another fast flying type cool. It also has defog? I would prefer to not defog with this however. With wisp, roost, bulk, typing and speed, talonflame feels !Ike something that brings something unique to every team. A fast pivot for bo teams is always appreciated and i love talonflame.

:- Honestly never thought I would see tinkaton in ru this gen but here we are. Evi seems hyped about this and I can see why. It arguably has the best typing and great stats to complement them. It also has a great support moves like encore, thunder wave, knock off and stealth rock. I honestly think this might become the new queen of the tier.

:- Torterra is cool. Cool typing great stats and can do more than just one thing. It can set up rocks, it can sweep, it can be a tank without rocks. Though shell smash sets seem a bit hit or miss but bulkier sets feel like they can be great. Cb is always there.

:- The only mon on this list I can see being banned. Nasty Plot with stab shadow ball is already great but that's not all it can do. I mainly tried wisp + hex sets which felt good. However, just like ttar, it has massive competition in the likes of hyphlosion, chandelure and mimikyu for ghost type offense. But zoroark's ability typing and movepool will certainly bring a unique blend of support and wall breaking.

Det var vidunderligt, håber du fyre har det sjovt. Farvel!

 

[Fabi_ODST]

:- I genuinely do not know though seems like a krook check.

:- The only mon on this list I can see being banned. Nasty Plot with stab shadow ball is already great but that's not all it can do. I mainly tried wisp + hex sets which felt good. However, just like ttar, it has massive competition in the likes of hyphlosion, chandelure and mimikyu for ghost type offense. But zoroark's ability typing and movepool will certainly bring a unique blend of support and wall breaking.

I want to touch on those 2 from your post, sice they're the ones I've used the most since they dropped.

While yeah, Dipplin is the best krook check in thhe game (I'd call it counter but banded gunk shot technically 2hkos you), it's also a hard stop to non setup grass and ground types in the tier, while also forcing defensive water types in the tier to run Ice Beam again, otherwise they run the risk of getting walled (I've 1v1'd slowbros, vaporeons and milotics just on the premise of them not having ice coverage. You have to watch out Quag's toxic though). This is what I've been running so far:


Dipplin @ Eviolite
Ability: Sticky Hold
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 8 SpA / 72 SpD
Modest Nature
- Giga Drain
- Draco Meteor
- Recover
- Dragon Tail

The special attack EVs lets you 3HKO max spdef hippo 98% of the time while also 2HKOing most other ground types in the tier. Dragon tail pairs really well with spikes support, while also letting you phase physical setup mons. Recover is self explanatory and draco lets you touch grass types. I've had a lot of fun with this little fella on ladder, though it will probably keep dropping on the following months.

I was originally quite scared of this fella, since it just seemed like a better Gengar (which was RUBL last gen iirc), but after playing with it for a bit, it just seems....fine? Like, having 3 immunities is awesome, and you hit like a truck with Specs (specially with status support for Hex), but even with the inmunities I find it really hard to position on the field. Ilusion doesn't really work atm because ttar is everywhere (and hippo), so you take chip damage constantly. Speaking of chip damage, you're vulnerable to all forms of hazards and priority from the most common dark type in the tier (though walling e-speed lucario is quite funny XD). I feel it's pretty manageable atm, though we'll have to wait and see. This is what I've been using:


Zoroark-Hisui (F) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Illusion
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Trick
- Tera Blast
- Shadow Ball
- U-turn

This set aims to be as disruptive as possible, abusing early illusion to force unfavorable trades/tricks or break midgame with specs. Tera blast acts as your STAB, with the option of going tera fighting against ttar and bisharp. You'll mostly click shadow ball or U-turn though.

 

[Ento]

The Brokens(?):
:- Dear God. I haven't used it but I have played against it and this is a nightmare. It forces every team to have tera ghost/ghost type or a helmet mon. Though I wouldn't say they are maus-proof, the former fears Technician bite while for the latter I have seen a few protect pads maus and they don't see bad though it does come at the price of wide lens.

As a Former UU Player, I'd like to briefly explain why Maushold is actually not scary or broken. Good? Yes, but definitely not Busted;

-Firstly, you've forgotten a third counter; Steel types. And, uh... Maus really lacks the tools to handle them on its own. Non-stab Low-kick really doesn't do enough damage to most steels, even with a tidy-up, and by contrast, pretty much all of them barring Tinkaton can KO back from full HP. (Tink, however, brings her own issues to the rats)
Now, if its a Lucario or an AV Magnezone, and it switches in on a pop bomb, yeah Maus wins, but at that point your opponent more likely just has a skill issue, or you've already won.

(This also includes Yuri Rock Diance and Mecha Godzilla Iron Thorns, but just saying "Steel types" was simpler.)

-Secondly... The ghosts don't really fear Technician bite. Like, maybe if your sole ghost type was Bramblegast, you'd be scared, but most other ghost types in the tier like running choice scarf, so they really don't have to fear any flinch hax, and of the ones that don't always run scarf, neither Mimikyu nor Basc fear Bite anyways, as like with Low-kick, non-stab bite just doesn't do that much, though unlike with steels, the flinch hax are real here.
And this is all talking before considering bulky tera ghosts like Chesnaught, or... I actually don't know what other pokemon like tera ghost, but I'm sure there's a few.

-Thirdly;

-Forth-ly; The tier has multiple, very bulky intimidate users, and more then most pokemon, Maus HATES being intimidated, because Maus' whole thing is "Click button, Kill", so if it can't do that, and has to rely on its 74/70/75 bulk to survive... against pokemon with at bare minimum 110 attack...
Yeah no, that Maushold is 'bout to become a Mausoleum.

-Fifth-ly;

-Lastly, and most importantly;
PROTECTIVE. PADS. SUCK.

Really think about this for a minute; Think about why you run wide lens.
Population bomb, as a move, rolls a 10% chance to miss every hit. Zoom lens brings that down to a 1% chance, practically guaranteeing 9 - 10 hits every time you click the move. As it was balanced, most pokemon need 8 - 10 hits to ohko with pop bomb.

With a Wide lens, each successive hit adds less then a single percent of a chance to miss and stop the combo. For the sake of argument, lets say it's half a percent chance added on each time (It's higher then that, but probability maths is dumb and stupidly complex and this is for illustrative purposes), so overall, with wide lens, you have about a 6% chance of only getting 9 hits, and about a 5.5% chance of only getting 8 hits, which if you hit that chance, could result in your Maus' demise. But that's still a far better chance of landing all 10 hits with the lens then even landing one without.

When you take off Wide lens to put on protective pads, you are now fully exposed to the brunt of the 1/10 RNG per hit. Using a similar stat for the sake of argument, we'll say each successive hit has an extra 5% probability of missing and ending the combo (Again, for illustrative purposes, the actual number is way higher). So, you have a 10% chance of getting 0 hits, a 15% chance of getting 1 (The same odds as missing a fire blast or hydro pump), a 20% chance of only getting 2, etc, etc. By the time you reach 6 hits, you have a 40% chance of stopping right there. By the time you reach 8 hits, you now only have a 50/50 shot of going to 9 hits.
In order to reach the kill threshold of 8-9 hits on most pokemon, you need to get lucky not once, not twice, but 8-9 times in a row, with worsening odds each time, and you need to do this multiple times a game if you plan on sweeping with Maus without a zoom lens.

Meanwhile, Your opponent needs to get lucky Once and bam boom bing, Maus is dead and you probably only took out their weakest pokemon unless you got really unlucky, or, as mentioned before, your opponent has a skill issue.
(And mind you, all these numbers are actually HIGHER then mentioned here, I just used 5% to simplify things)

To put it another way, without getting into the stupidly complex maths, you're basically on average reducing your Maus' Damage by somewhere in the ballpark of 25-30% over the course of the game, when your Maus NEEDS all the damage it can get...

And all this... so you don't have to play around a single item on a single pokemon that's usually obvious which one it is.


Let me be clear; Maus is good. Not just as a damage dealer and mid/late game sweeper, but as a support pokemon too, with tidy up and a threatening move for other supports in Population Bomb. It looks good, because it is good.
But calling Maus even remotely close to broken is laughable at best, when its answers are so varied and common and exploitable.
It certainly will have a tangible, visible impact on the tier, as will the rest of the UU Drops, but it won't warp the tier around it anymore then Politoed or Ninetails or T-tar. The pokemon that check it are common, the item that ruins it is already good with the multiple fake-out users, and the strategy itself is extremely obvious.

Maushold will be a very notable pokemon in the tier, but it's nowhere near gonna warp it any more then the weather wars will.

Edit: Gamefreak put two lens items in the game that both improve accuracy specifically just to mess with me in this specific moment. 'Zoom Lens' even sounds like the more correct option of the two.

 

[Critaquil]

first impressions, bear in mind I didnt play much of the predlc meta:


holy fuck this thing is annoying, not impossible to beat, mind you, but annoying, hard punishes frailer builds like nothing else really does, not banworthy rn though imo.



weather wars are back in this tier and sun is no exception, as of now I haven't run into much sun, and at least for now I think its actually the second worst weather, which is surprising given how absurd hiligant was (rightfully) expected to be, speaking of hilligant, while I think it's not impossible to play around, and definitely not the most absurdly broken mon to ever grace ru (haxorus says hi), its defensive counterplay feels limited to like 5 or 6 mons which I'm not sure how to feel about, probably banworthy but I'd let it simmer for a few days



sand feels really balanced and surprisingly fun, it's definitely the playstyle with the most team freedom, hippo is a solid glue and ttar is a disgustingly strong breaker. the only thing I have concerns about is diancie, which felt nigh unkillable in a lot of matchups, sand spdef boost + id/diamond storm defense boosts feels very difficult to take down, not the hardest to wear down though.



politoed's only been unbanned for about an hour as I'm writing this, but from what I've played of it rain is very strong if not a little too strong, very few teams can stand up to a sustained assault from skewda + thundy + other swimmers, and many of those that can, in true weather war fashion, are opposing weathers that can intercept rain. Overall, very fun, but will likely end up being problematic



great mon, spikes up in front of so much shit its crazy, also a very spashable water resist for the aforementioned rain.


phenominal pokemon, I cannot overstate how good of an addition this is to the tier, great fast bulky pivot, is also half the reason I'm not calling for an instant hilligant qb


same as above but clicks knock off instead of wisp and also has regen, great pivot, even better spinner, great mon.

all in all, this meta is blast, it feels like bw ou but without the problematic bs like keldeo and spikespam mguard teams, excited to see where the meta goes from here

 

[ehehehehxcx]

just started playing ru again w the new shifts. tilted after reaching 1350 b/c of terrible plays (gonna try reach 1450 later this week). but feel free to try this balance core:

Milotic (F) @ Leftovers / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Marvel Scale
Tera Type: Dragon / Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 208 SpD / 48 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Haze / Flip Turn
- Mirror Coat
- Recover

bulkiest water there is rn and can sit on anything on the spdef side. mirror coat makes you a special wall that even mons like rotom-heat can't pivot out of unless you want the next mon sacked. pick and choose leftovers for balance teams or hdb for offensive. tera type is customizable as well. i wouldn't ever tera, but i especially wouldn't until special psychics like gardevoir are eliminated (mostly if you opt for tera poison).

Fezandipiti (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Toxic Chain
Tera Type: Poison / Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 144 Def / 112 Spe
Bold Nature
- Moonblast
- Roost
- Beat Up
- U-turn

toxic proc is the funniest thing ever. people mentioned that it can go calm mind or taunt + u-turn. i use beat up early and mid-game to start adding pressure for my sweepers to come in and clean. i'm also tired of sweepers thinking they can switch on the free. a naturally high spdef stat means you can invest in its phydef. one of my favorite pivots and status spreaders in the tier so far. 112 spe used to speed creep max speed neutral nature slither wing.

Gligar @ Eviolite
Ability: Immunity
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 180 Def / 76 Spe
Impish Nature
- Spikes / Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- U-turn

still a defensive nuisance to deal with even without roost. spikes + knock off applies so much pressure on cores like the aforementioned hippowdon + chesnaught + milotic cores. esp when factoring status like toxic, you're gonna be taking a lot to get rid of this core. if you want a wish passer, i would switch milotic with vaporeon.

one of the biggest counters to this core is tera poison wo-chien since it can sub + seed any three of these mons. the best way i countered is by slapping on sweepers like oricorio-balle to overwhelm it and roost off the loss of health. but this counter-play obviously requires some work to sweep. also, there is no hazard removal here, so up to you what to add as hazard removal (talonflame and brambleghast partner well as offensive utility), but besides those points, let me know what y'all think abt this core and how you would improve it.

 

[Pabloaram]

Maushold-Four @ Wide Lens / Heavy Duty Boots
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Population Bomb
- Bite
- Encore
- Tidy Up

gonna bring some love to the maus family.. yes can be annoying but it feel easy to prepare against it. Tytar, Diancie, Revaroom, even Hippo can stop Popubomb even +1 Popubomb. I like this set bc become kinda Speed Booster Valiant from OU with the Encore and Tidy Up support. If you dont care about hitting all the Popubomb hit (or you are lucky to hit them whitout lens) running HDB can make the Maus a nice offensive hazzard control

 

[Iron Jugglenuts]

Jugulis should have been unban since his ban

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Anyone messing around with Lycanroc-Dusk? How is it doing at the moment of its unban?

 

[Sneakyplanner]

Anyone messing around with Lycanroc-Dusk? How is it doing at the moment of its unban?

here's what I've been trying with it, volt-turn support to bring it in safely (especially abuses flying types coming in on slither wing) and double priority with slither wing. Plus hippo/amuk as a bulky backbone where muk can chip and knock things to prepare a lycanroc clean up.

 

[Forest Guardian]

As a Former UU Player, I'd like to briefly explain why Maushold is actually not scary or broken. Good? Yes, but definitely not Busted;

-Firstly, you've forgotten a third counter; Steel types. And, uh... Maus really lacks the tools to handle them on its own. Non-stab Low-kick really doesn't do enough damage to most steels, even with a tidy-up, and by contrast, pretty much all of them barring Tinkaton can KO back from full HP. (Tink, however, brings her own issues to the rats)
Now, if its a Lucario or an AV Magnezone, and it switches in on a pop bomb, yeah Maus wins, but at that point your opponent more likely just has a skill issue, or you've already won.

(This also includes Yuri Rock Diance and Mecha Godzilla Iron Thorns, but just saying "Steel types" was simpler.)

-Secondly... The ghosts don't really fear Technician bite. Like, maybe if your sole ghost type was Bramblegast, you'd be scared, but most other ghost types in the tier like running choice scarf, so they really don't have to fear any flinch hax, and of the ones that don't always run scarf, neither Mimikyu nor Basc fear Bite anyways, as like with Low-kick, non-stab bite just doesn't do that much, though unlike with steels, the flinch hax are real here.
And this is all talking before considering bulky tera ghosts like Chesnaught, or... I actually don't know what other pokemon like tera ghost, but I'm sure there's a few.

-Thirdly; View attachment 567700

-Forth-ly; The tier has multiple, very bulky intimidate users, and more then most pokemon, Maus HATES being intimidated, because Maus' whole thing is "Click button, Kill", so if it can't do that, and has to rely on its 74/70/75 bulk to survive... against pokemon with at bare minimum 110 attack...
Yeah no, that Maushold is 'bout to become a Mausoleum.

-Fifth-ly; View attachment 567703

-Lastly, and most importantly;
PROTECTIVE. PADS. SUCK.

Really think about this for a minute; Think about why you run wide lens.
Population bomb, as a move, rolls a 10% chance to miss every hit. Zoom lens brings that down to a 1% chance, practically guaranteeing 9 - 10 hits every time you click the move. As it was balanced, most pokemon need 8 - 10 hits to ohko with pop bomb.

With a Wide lens, each successive hit adds less then a single percent of a chance to miss and stop the combo. For the sake of argument, lets say it's half a percent chance added on each time (It's higher then that, but probability maths is dumb and stupidly complex and this is for illustrative purposes), so overall, with wide lens, you have about a 6% chance of only getting 9 hits, and about a 5.5% chance of only getting 8 hits, which if you hit that chance, could result in your Maus' demise. But that's still a far better chance of landing all 10 hits with the lens then even landing one without.

When you take off Wide lens to put on protective pads, you are now fully exposed to the brunt of the 1/10 RNG per hit. Using a similar stat for the sake of argument, we'll say each successive hit has an extra 5% probability of missing and ending the combo (Again, for illustrative purposes, the actual number is way higher). So, you have a 10% chance of getting 0 hits, a 15% chance of getting 1 (The same odds as missing a fire blast or hydro pump), a 20% chance of only getting 2, etc, etc. By the time you reach 6 hits, you have a 40% chance of stopping right there. By the time you reach 8 hits, you now only have a 50/50 shot of going to 9 hits.
In order to reach the kill threshold of 8-9 hits on most pokemon, you need to get lucky not once, not twice, but 8-9 times in a row, with worsening odds each time, and you need to do this multiple times a game if you plan on sweeping with Maus without a zoom lens.

Meanwhile, Your opponent needs to get lucky Once and bam boom bing, Maus is dead and you probably only took out their weakest pokemon unless you got really unlucky, or, as mentioned before, your opponent has a skill issue.
(And mind you, all these numbers are actually HIGHER then mentioned here, I just used 5% to simplify things)

To put it another way, without getting into the stupidly complex maths, you're basically on average reducing your Maus' Damage by somewhere in the ballpark of 25-30% over the course of the game, when your Maus NEEDS all the damage it can get...

And all this... so you don't have to play around a single item on a single pokemon that's usually obvious which one it is.


Let me be clear; Maus is good. Not just as a damage dealer and mid/late game sweeper, but as a support pokemon too, with tidy up and a threatening move for other supports in Population Bomb. It looks good, because it is good.
But calling Maus even remotely close to broken is laughable at best, when its answers are so varied and common and exploitable.
It certainly will have a tangible, visible impact on the tier, as will the rest of the UU Drops, but it won't warp the tier around it anymore then Politoed or Ninetails or T-tar. The pokemon that check it are common, the item that ruins it is already good with the multiple fake-out users, and the strategy itself is extremely obvious.

Maushold will be a very notable pokemon in the tier, but it's nowhere near gonna warp it any more then the weather wars will.

Edit: Gamefreak put two lens items in the game that both improve accuracy specifically just to mess with me in this specific moment. 'Zoom Lens' even sounds like the more correct option of the two.

[/QUOTE]

As a Former UU Player, I'd like to briefly explain why Maushold is actually not scary or broken. Good? Yes, but definitely not Busted;

-Firstly, you've forgotten a third counter; Steel types. And, uh... Maus really lacks the tools to handle them on its own. Non-stab Low-kick really doesn't do enough damage to most steels, even with a tidy-up, and by contrast, pretty much all of them barring Tinkaton can KO back from full HP. (Tink, however, brings her own issues to the rats)
Now, if its a Lucario or an AV Magnezone, and it switches in on a pop bomb, yeah Maus wins, but at that point your opponent more likely just has a skill issue, or you've already won.

(This also includes Yuri Rock Diance and Mecha Godzilla Iron Thorns, but just saying "Steel types" was simpler.)

-Secondly... The ghosts don't really fear Technician bite. Like, maybe if your sole ghost type was Bramblegast, you'd be scared, but most other ghost types in the tier like running choice scarf, so they really don't have to fear any flinch hax, and of the ones that don't always run scarf, neither Mimikyu nor Basc fear Bite anyways, as like with Low-kick, non-stab bite just doesn't do that much, though unlike with steels, the flinch hax are real here.
And this is all talking before considering bulky tera ghosts like Chesnaught, or... I actually don't know what other pokemon like tera ghost, but I'm sure there's a few.

-Thirdly; View attachment 567700

-Forth-ly; The tier has multiple, very bulky intimidate users, and more then most pokemon, Maus HATES being intimidated, because Maus' whole thing is "Click button, Kill", so if it can't do that, and has to rely on its 74/70/75 bulk to survive... against pokemon with at bare minimum 110 attack...
Yeah no, that Maushold is 'bout to become a Mausoleum.

-Fifth-ly; View attachment 567703

-Lastly, and most importantly;
PROTECTIVE. PADS. SUCK.

Really think about this for a minute; Think about why you run wide lens.
Population bomb, as a move, rolls a 10% chance to miss every hit. Zoom lens brings that down to a 1% chance, practically guaranteeing 9 - 10 hits every time you click the move. As it was balanced, most pokemon need 8 - 10 hits to ohko with pop bomb.

With a Wide lens, each successive hit adds less then a single percent of a chance to miss and stop the combo. For the sake of argument, lets say it's half a percent chance added on each time (It's higher then that, but probability maths is dumb and stupidly complex and this is for illustrative purposes), so overall, with wide lens, you have about a 6% chance of only getting 9 hits, and about a 5.5% chance of only getting 8 hits, which if you hit that chance, could result in your Maus' demise. But that's still a far better chance of landing all 10 hits with the lens then even landing one without.

When you take off Wide lens to put on protective pads, you are now fully exposed to the brunt of the 1/10 RNG per hit. Using a similar stat for the sake of argument, we'll say each successive hit has an extra 5% probability of missing and ending the combo (Again, for illustrative purposes, the actual number is way higher). So, you have a 10% chance of getting 0 hits, a 15% chance of getting 1 (The same odds as missing a fire blast or hydro pump), a 20% chance of only getting 2, etc, etc. By the time you reach 6 hits, you have a 40% chance of stopping right there. By the time you reach 8 hits, you now only have a 50/50 shot of going to 9 hits.
In order to reach the kill threshold of 8-9 hits on most pokemon, you need to get lucky not once, not twice, but 8-9 times in a row, with worsening odds each time, and you need to do this multiple times a game if you plan on sweeping with Maus without a zoom lens.

Meanwhile, Your opponent needs to get lucky Once and bam boom bing, Maus is dead and you probably only took out their weakest pokemon unless you got really unlucky, or, as mentioned before, your opponent has a skill issue.
(And mind you, all these numbers are actually HIGHER then mentioned here, I just used 5% to simplify things)

To put it another way, without getting into the stupidly complex maths, you're basically on average reducing your Maus' Damage by somewhere in the ballpark of 25-30% over the course of the game, when your Maus NEEDS all the damage it can get...

And all this... so you don't have to play around a single item on a single pokemon that's usually obvious which one it is.


Let me be clear; Maus is good. Not just as a damage dealer and mid/late game sweeper, but as a support pokemon too, with tidy up and a threatening move for other supports in Population Bomb. It looks good, because it is good.
But calling Maus even remotely close to broken is laughable at best, when its answers are so varied and common and exploitable.
It certainly will have a tangible, visible impact on the tier, as will the rest of the UU Drops, but it won't warp the tier around it anymore then Politoed or Ninetails or T-tar. The pokemon that check it are common, the item that ruins it is already good with the multiple fake-out users, and the strategy itself is extremely obvious.

Maushold will be a very notable pokemon in the tier, but it's nowhere near gonna warp it any more then the weather wars will.

Edit: Gamefreak put two lens items in the game that both improve accuracy specifically just to mess with me in this specific moment. 'Zoom Lens' even sounds like the more correct option of the two.

Ok so I am gonna touch on ur first five so called 'answers' to the mouse.

The steels:
Firstly they are all slower than it and have no reliable recovery (poor thing to say but I felt it was worth mentioning)
:- Vroom runs sg sets 99% of the time I would say, spdef sucks, scarf less so but still.
So: 252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Revavroom: 190-230 (63.1 - 76.4%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO.
:- Since tink is very new I would be using it's uu spread for now.
So: 252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Tinkaton: 180-210 (48.1 - 56.1%) -- approx. 74.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery.
:- Forre is prolly the best answer to this since it's v bulky and isn't weak to low kick, in case maus runs that.
So: 252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 100-120 (28.2 - 33.8%) -- approx. 5.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery.
:- This doesn't like either low kick or population bomb, being nearly 2hkoed by the latter.
So: 252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Bisharp: 120-140 (44.2 - 51.6%) -- approx. 21.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock. (Some bisharps go bulkier but I am not exactly sure of their spreads so...)
252 Atk Maushold Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Bisharp: 164-196 (60.5 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. (This also deals a very hefty chunk)

I am gonna be honest, I have only really seen thorns as a lead so idk if it even lives to see maus so I am not counting that.
on the other is a bit more like forre but it's weak to hazards like forre but unlike forre it can't spin them away.
So: 252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Diancie: 120-150 (39.4 - 49.3%) -- approx. 4.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Not an amazing calc imo)
Diancies do go bulkier but the max I have seen are like 196 def so here goes; 252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 252 HP / 196 Def Diancie: 110-130 (36.1 - 42.7%) -- approx. 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. (I would still say this is still a lot)

I will be skipping over your ghost point for once and go straight to mudsdale. The drops hit mudsdale pretty hard imo. We got four new grounds in , , , so competition is very tough and krook just got better with new prays though it gained new checks as well.
Hippowdon imo does mostly does everything muds wants to do, except answering maus, this ofc doesn't mean mudsdale is out of the picture, far from it, but it will be much rarer and these grounds do not appreciate taking population bombs.

Intimidate users:
:- If krookodile is intimidate it's almost always slower. So -1 252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Krookodile: 280-340 (84.5 - 102.7%) -- approx. 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock.
:- I haven't tried this in quiet some while but scarf sets are definitely not good so ur also gonna be slower, outside of aqua Jet which is a pretty hard hit ngl. -1 252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tauros-Paldea-Aqua: 240-280 (82.4 - 96.2%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock. 252 Atk Choice Band Tauros-Paldea-Aqua Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Maushold: 118-139 (40.8 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO. Like I said, pretty hard hit.
:Aracanine: Worst case scenario for maus imo......-1 252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arcanine: 220-270 (57.2 - 70.3%) -- approx. 2HKO. 4 Atk Arcanine Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Maushold: 85-100 (29.4 - 34.6%) -- 8.9% chance to 3HKO.
-1 252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Overqwil: 190-240 (50.8 - 64.1%) -- approx. 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (not exactly amazing).

Prolly the best way to answer maus outside of muds (and if u count this, you count as well)
But the thing with talon is that sure it's good but like I wouldn't wanna run this on every team as a matter of fact I prolly can't. And like sometimes it gets a bit fishy with talon since let me tell you flame body is coded to only burn 10% of the time but it says 30% idk why.

Now let's get to the ghosts. Scarf typhlosion should mainly be run on sun (haha it rhymes) and sun is a bit mu fishy like most weathers. + It's also v easy to wear down without boots. 252 Atk Technician Maushold Bite vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Typhlosion-Hisui: 170-200 (59.2 - 69.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
Horoark I have no idea about but scarf feels weird but it might be good idk it's too new to say anything.
252 Atk Technician Maushold Bite vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zoroark-Hisui: 206-244 (82 - 97.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock. (WORSE!)
is well not exactly free from bite. 252 Atk Technician Maushold Bite vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Basculegion: 194-230 (50.9 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. (That's a good chunk of damage)
Bramble I covered anyways.
feels more like hyphlosion but it can be run outside of sun since it doesn't become kinda weak after taking even like 5% of damage so.....ok! Ig. 252 Atk Technician Maushold Bite vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 150-178 (57.4 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock.
's problem is more of like scarf hyphlo 'i only really fit on one structure' which this time, is hyper offense.

The protective pads argument is pretty good and I have nothing to say against it except the fact that I was only saying that I saw some pp maus and it might be good.
Another thing is that while the title does say 'THE BROKENS' I did say near the end that they are the most likely to get banned. Rather than, u guys should ban them rfn. So....yeah

 

[EviGaro]

Hello, so RU Council voted today on four pokemons: Lilligant-Hisui, Maushold, Politoed and Zoroark-Hisui. Big thanks to Ajna, bb skarm and ishtar for joining us in rotating council as Beraldo abstained and GoldCat went to sleep (his vote would not change the outcome). Here are the results!

Feli forgot to put the results there ROFL but nothing is banned, as even with another ban vote Lilligant-Hisui would not meet the threshold of 8 votes out of 11. Nothing else got a majority of the vote. Because of this though, we are going to move ahead with a Lilligant-Hisui suspect in the coming hours, so stay tuned for that thread!

 

[Miyami~~~]

quick lightning round after playing ~100 ladder games for the suspect:


this is the most problematic element of the tier imo. what really sets rain apart is the sheer variance in abusers it has. there's legitimately like 10 (legion, skewda, floatzel, ludicolo, overqwil, golduck, kilowattrel, thundurus, etc) that all have various minutiae in how they play that can really affect counterplay. For example, while skewda, legion, and floatzel all fulfill the same role, booster jugulis outspeeds legion in rain but not the other two, which can majorly affect the matchup. while Slowbro stonewalls Legion and its little brothers, it can't switch in before the choice lock since getting flip turned into a golduck or ludicolo could be game losing. Water Absorb Vaporeon loses to much the same, etc. Toed's also not awful as far as setters are concerned, you have a better quantity and quality of abuser compared to the other weathers and it's not weak to rocks, which is really all you can ask for. I truly believe drizzle rain is too much for the tier, and this is probably the only thing I think needs to go.


this felt really broken on low ladder but once I started fighting real teams it fell off to just solid. You have to be insanely careful with it because a random helmet can just ruin you, and while it is capable of tearing through weakened teams, it takes quite a bit of babying to get there. Honestly the best part about it was the ghost immunity + tera fire to play mind games with Mimikyu. Very feast or famine mon, for every game I landed a tidy up and swept 3 mons there was one where I ended up playing a 5v6.


I'm convinced scarf sets are pretty bad, but oh my god trying to play around illusion is a nightmare with this. The fact that it's naturally immune to two of the best priority moves in the tier (luc espeed, mimikyu shadow sneak) makes it surprisingly difficult to revenge kill for something so fragile. Lowkey I think boots is the way to go only because it means you can't count hazard damage to sniff out illusion, the combination of illusion and that typing is far and away the best thing of what's otherwise just a fine mon and it's probably best to play into that.


throat spray speed boost is the scariest setup sweeper in the tier, even over hilligant. The fact that it fixes all of its coverage issues with a single tera type, which also hugely benefits it defensively, is such a godsend for this mon. This thing murders offense. Most pokemon that can actually switch into it at +1 (Chansey, milotic, and some mons that have to play around tera like fezandpiti or tinkaton) are difficult to fit on faster teams, it's weirdly bulky and can stomach priority hits, and it can scout any defensive teras through careful usage of protect. I won a majority of my games by saving tera for yanmega and sending it in at the midgame, where it proceeded to clean through 3-4 mons without fail. It's strong enough to not be completely dead weight vs balance, either, and most notably has a pretty insane ability to BS through potential checks, such as this replay where I 1v1ed a chansey with it. 30% is 100% if you believe hard enough. I won a few games by double protecting to get over a natively faster scarfer too. It definitely feels like it rewards fishing for luck since it can take over games so fast with just one flinch or double tect. I could totally see this being suspected down the line, it's insane.


holds offense together, unless you're running weather it's probably mandatory right now. The combination of decent priority and disguise is just invaluable, and it's strong enough into offense that breaking their disguise with your mimikyu in the back with disguise intact can be game determinative. Probably a solid A+ mon until the dust settles a bit.


There are other, more specialized bulky waters, but Milotic will probably end up being the best one long term. It's kind of an amalgamation of the three other top bulky waters (one turn recovery, pivot move, setup denial), giving it unbelievable role compression and letting it remedy its bad matchup a bit simply by not having to deal with them. It's also one of the few things that can 1v1 yanmega, flinches nonwithstanding, which is really nice since that mon's terrifying. The only real knock I have against it is that we're in a really offensive meta right now and it doesn't fit super well onto more offensive teams, but that will change with time. Use it!


welcome back to the blacklist, buddy! We haven't missed you!


this will probably be the other noob trap d rank. I've seen an inordinate amount of this and all it ever does is set up one spike and immediately die to EQ. Please stop using this! If you want a suicide lead, use krookodile. If you want anything else from this, use the ACTUAL TYRANITAR we just have now for some reason.

 

[Bice]

apart from h-lilligant (which i've already talked abt in the suspect thread), i believe there's three big problematic elements atm, in order of most to least:

- Miyami~~~ articulated this far better than i could, but rain just has way too many abusers to account for in the builder. many of rain's typical checks (vaporeon, wo-chien, chesnaught) get wrecked by kilowattrel, and i believe other checks to these guys (ludicolo, golduck, tera grass barraskewda) remain underexplored and dangerous. yes politoed itself is highly underwhelming, but it's not total dead weight thanks to moves like hypnosis and encore. even if kilowattrel (or thundurus) is eliminated, these rain checks are often heavily burdened and overwhelmed by pokemon like iron jugulis.
- three immunities + illusion + crunk offensive typing = nightmare to build against and face. most of our ghosts resists are fragile, and the few that aren't either get worn down by coverage (bisharp) or have their own issues (tyranitar). choice specs is definitely scary, but boots is an underrated option that prevents illusion breakage via hazards. zoroark's movepool is also vast; for example, teams that can check, say, grass knot + flamethrower fold to trick sets. even with its fragility zoroark can utilize its broken typing to coast by and prevent itself from being revenge killed; it only really fears the uncommon sucker punch.
- victim of tera #469. while i could probably go on and on about why tera should be banned, throat spray tera ground yanmega is a terrifying cleaner that can cleave through most defensive cores, especially later in the game. what prevents it from being as crunk as the others is that it needs a fair bit of babysitting, as checks like talonflame and mimikyu need to be worn down and stealth rocks need to be kept off the field. being vulnerable to priority doesn't help, but once those are taken care of yanmega can go hog wild, especially with air slash's 30% flinch rate. i think this thing should at least be suspected later down the line once stuff like rain and zoroark are gone.
edit: there's one more Pokemon that I think warrants a look at once the more problematic elements are gone:
- Even with Tinkaton in the tier Dragalge feels incredibly overbearing due to its ability to chunk even resists for huge damage. Being forced to run Tink on every balance team is no fun, which locks you out of other Steels like Bisharp. I understand the more hyper offensive metagame isn't kind to it, but it still feels annoying to build against.

 

[Elec-ant1234]

Not sure on what the general opinion is on Lilligant-H's ban, but I for one am glad that it's gone. I didn't make reqs (4% away :_ ) but on the HO team I used it was cheese incarnate. While most would use two stabs+ tera blast I found out that sleep powder did the job just fine over tera blast. The ability to shut down any poison types or just anything that you wanted with increased accuracy from a wide lens was way too cheesy for the tier. It hit way too hard, and generally the way you beat it was either by stalling it out with godlike gameplay or by getting lucky, neither of which the tier needs. The ability to sleep something or chip down a resist by like 35% was great since I could easily send in something like Yanmega or mimikyu to clean up, and the amount of times I won off of having an important mon sleeping on the opponents team was too many. You could have a perfectly good endgame ruined because liligant hit one sleep powder that you didn't expect and now you have to play 2v3 vs. a danced up liligant and unbroken mimikyu. So TLDR, glad that it's gone, and the tier can start doing some actual teambuilding, because holy hell I think the amount of strain this thing put on the ladder is insane and I'm surprised that no one's brought it up. The amount of tera poison quagsires I encountered and fez's in general that didn't do anything but wall liligant was actually crazy

 

[C0nfiden1 0yster]

Hey i wanted to share my answers for the recent survey.

Smogon name: C0nfiden1 0yster

How enjoyable do you find the current metagame? 8/10
I think this is by far the most enjoyable SVRU metagame. Having more than 2 options for the ground type slot is massive. Having a real steel, albiet one that is prone to exploitation (tinkaton), is massive. This tier is diverse, tons of viable options. The boosted role compression and the relatively balanced nature of the tier make it not difficult to show creativity, something that I believe was punished in the previous metagame. I think the tier rewards proactive play moreso than previous metagames. While I personally don't love sm ru, it has a lot of more enjoyable elements of that metagame. I also feel like tera is not as overbearing, as tera sweepers like bisharp and cloyster aren't as good. The DLC also added knock and some of the other fun items (like custap berry) back which I only see as positives.

How competitive do you find the current metagame? 7/10
It's overall competitive, I feel like as if games are decided on preview less than previous metas and other metas like ss ru. That being said there are a few pokemon that are too much. I don't feel like games come down to luck as much either so no issues there. I think the maximum competitive-ness of a tera tier is a 7.5, and I feel like this is pretty close for now. The tier is only temporary and there are probably future developments that might turn in to potential issues, but judging by the scl games, the french pl games, the ru cup finals, and even the early trios tour games, there isn't anything that has been striking me as overbearing.

What are your thoughts on Fezandipiti in the current metagame? 1/5
I'm not really sure why this is here in all honesty. The survey post by Evi mentions smth with magnezone but.. even then I never felt this strategy is intrinsically good, rather it just takes advantage of Tinkaton as the primary steel and its underlying flaws. Fezan by itself isn't anything pressing at all, as it definitely depends on the longevity, as in a mu vs offense or in shorter games, it will pivot less and not be able to take advantage of Toxic Chain as much. If anything I view this pokemon as healthy since it punishes lazily slapping a tinkaton and encourages more proactive play.

What are your thoughts on Hisuian-Zoroark in the current metagame? 1/5
I can understand why the council included this pokemon but I don't think it is banworthy. Claims that this pokemon forces guessing games are greatly exaggerated I feel. In Ajna Vs Robjr on turn 22, you do see the dynamic in question, but I feel as if this just the consequence of not having a ghost resist/immunity. The pokemon itself also isn't that impressive, beyond illusion mindgames. It has a nice speed stat and ig the immunities are nice, but even with specs, I think the average base powers of shadow ball and hyper voice aren't amazing considering it isn't hitting a ton of pokemon for super effective damage either. It also doesn't get a ton of opportunities to switch in due to pathetic bulk and weakness to the ever common knock off. I do think it has quite a bit of untapped potential though in non-specs sets, so we'll have to see.

What are your thoughts on Iron Jugulis in the current metagame? 5/5
I think this pokemon is too good for the tier and the tools to handle it are way too limited (and ineffective) to justify keeping the pokemon in the tier. Its like SS sharpedo except it doesn't have to kill itself and it has real bulk. The common booster energy set of Hurricane / Dark Pulse / Earth Power / Taunt has a really limited pool of answers. A lot of teams will rely on either Tinkaton or Fezandipiti to deal with Jug, but earth power only needs a little bit of chip (which can be easily forced by pokemon like Cyclizar) to 2hko. Then if we start reaching out to other answers like sdef Hippo or Milotic, which may be better at handling the common set due to a lacking weaknesses to its moves, then they are susceptible to a stab dark pulse flinch or stab hurricane confusion, in which the jugulis will often get 2 chances to perform as it lives a stone edge and ice beam respectively after rocks. My point is that even with the most optimal counterplay, it can still win, and that isn't even mentioning other sets. In Beraldo vs Floss, the jugulis used Hydro pump, manly to target opposing hippowdown, but in this game it was able to claim talonflame, showing that there are other sets that can be viable. Just a quick look at the movelist shows that it can easily adapt to anything really; Even moves like Work Up and Substitute have been able fit just fine. Attempting to handle it offensively is also not easy due to great bulk and with booster energy, a speed tier that outspeeds all scarfers bar hzoro. It even resists strong priority options like Sucker Punch and Shadow Sneak, and Ada Max attack First Impression Slither Wing doesn't KO after rocks. Its great mus into everything and its inability to be offensively played around make Iron Jugu very easily banworthy and at least an unhealthy part of the metagame that should be removed.

What are your thoughts on Lycanroc-Dusk in the current metagame? 1/5
Lycanroc has a really good win rate in scl but if you actually watch the games it literally does nothing banworthy. There are a good number of checks too, like Slowbro, Hippo, Quagsire, and Chestnaught. For more offensive teams pokemon like donphan and torterra are fine. Priority like First Impression and sucker to an extent works as well if needed. Only when it tera fights does it become a bit or a problem but with proactive play I don't really think that's that big of a issue. Its not like +2 accelerock is that much of an issue for offense either so yea. Lack of notable tour performances and that just make me believe this pokemon is fine.

What are your thoughts on Magnezone in the current metagame? 1/5
Like I said in the Fezandipiti section, it trapping tink and other steels, enabling other threats isn't particularly banworthy. Specs is a potent breaker outside of trapping but it is still manageable due to grounds being immune to volt/bolt, and flash cannon not being super effective against those grounds either. It is also quite slow and the bulk isn't super impressive either, especially for something that is often relied on as the lone steel, is my reasoning for not considering it banworthy. Previous metagames have been able to handle specs mag as well.

What are your thoughts on Maushold in the current metagame? 3/5
Balances being forced to run Rocky Helm on every team is probably smth this tier can do without. Sneakyplanner has said a few times that removing maushold would only be a good thing for the tier, and while I don't love that philosophy I do agree with it. Offensive counterplay is kind of limited but also not really. It depends on the tera really, with tera normal being able to break more effectively and tera ghost being able to resist smth like first impression and avoid previously super-effective fighting attacks. I'd support a suspect of this pokemon.

Outside of the Pokemons suggested above, is there anything else you feel strongly is suspect or ban worthy in the tier? Torterra
It isn't that difficult to get a shell smash off on this thing on pokemon like hippowdon, and at +2 with loaded dice bullet seed, rock blast, and EQ/Headlong, it pretty much kills everything in its way. The obvious answer would be to simply not let that happen but with tera + decent bulk that's not always possible. Although I probably wouldn't vote ban on it today, I was surprised it was included In this section rather than a stand alone question.

Should we actually unban Zarude? No, too many setup options and tera pushes it
not really much to add, and now it gets knock too, yea no thanks

Did you either play a game in SCL for RU or won at least four rounds in RU Cup / latest RU Seasonals (combined?) No
no scl, didn't sign up for ssnl, lost r1 in cup

Thoughts on more ADV RU integration? For example, a place in the next Classic Tour or a slot in a team tour
Feel like there has at least gotta be another tour or two b4 we add to rupl. I didn't sign up for the tour and don't really have any interest in learning this tier, but i feel like the bo3 slot is a lot more exciting (but then again that is probably due to me not knowing the tier or its mechanics). Not opposed to adding it to classic to fill out the bo5 of playoffs, but i still think it needs another tour.


Now just talking about the tier generally, I am honestly quite surprised by the approach of the top players, opting for slower and more defensive teams, rather than offense teams. I have found it very difficult to create balance cores that are good into most things and honestly, I notice some of the scl teams have really blatant weaknesses. Usually teams are missing essential resists/immunities or overrelianing on pokemon like tinkaton and quagsire, and getting punished for it. Everything points towards this tier being more offensive. Tinkaton doesn't fit on balance as well as something like registeel might. Then there is Cyclizar which just knockturns for ever all over these fats. The tier also has virtually like, no quag switch ins, meaning that trying to target its poor stats with offense would be the most efficient way to beat it. I just think BO's are more consistent in this metagame as covering everything is essentially impossible. BOs also just have more options than balances in this tier so its easier to be creative there as well.

That being said I think HO is really inconsistent. The rain mu is just way too bad as there aren't any effective water resists that fit on HO well, especially with H-lili ban. The answer really is mmq and scarf grade and pray oppo plays like a moron. There are other kinda problematic mus but i think rain is the main one.

hope u enjoyed reading

 

[Welcome to mars]

With all the wave crashes and fire type attacks boosted by weather flying around, i don’t think overqwil and magnezone have a place in this tier and i see them dropping to nu unfortunately, overqwil could stay as a rain set up sweeper or swift swim utility mon though, but last month it had like like 5.7% usage which is not a comfy place in a metagame which would later experience a massive tier shift

edit: this aged real fast

 

[Elec-ant1234]

Surprisingly, neither magnezone nor overqwil dropped. However, Things are going to get pretty munkidori

on another note, it seems like mimikyu is single handedly leading the HO charge

 

[FlamingoPokeman]

Just hit #1 on RU Ladder on my new alt and wanted to give my insight into the tier (stealing C0nfiden1 0yster template):

Smogon name: Arr Inn Cheesiness (FP RNC G3WB is my alt, see above)

How enjoyable do you find the current metagame? 7/10
This meta is very HO at the top: Yanmega and Iron Jugulis lead the way for most teams, but Krook, Revavroom, and others dominate a lot of matchups. It can be hard to play some teams because of the variety of sets, since not every Krook is scarf + moxie, not every Yanmega is tera ground, etc. Still, I laddered hard and had a lot of fun.

How competitive do you find the current metagame? 8/10
Similar to my above points, it's easy to get swept (or sweep) depending on the matchups. A single misplay or miss can save or ruin a game because the tier is just so strong. While a balanced team can find it's way to high ladder, you likely won't see much stall or hazard stack because it allows your opponent to get rolling.

What are your thoughts on Fezandipiti in the current metagame? 2/5
With Tinkaton, Magnezone and a few other mon's capable of checking it, it doesn't often get enough use out of it's pretty busted ability. It can spread Toxic quickly if you aren't prepared, but more often than not it only puts in a little work against most of the tier.

What are your thoughts on Hisuian-Zoroark in the current metagame? 2/5
While H-Zoro is very strong in it's own right, it is too frail to abuse the mind games it gives you against your opponent. Cyclizar will almost always click Knock Off instead of spin if it sees H-Zoro in team preview, and it's relatively low speed makes it hard to get going at times.

What are your thoughts on Iron Jugulis in the current metagame? 5/5
Booster Energy Iron Jugulis is a menace. It can shred teams using 4 attacks, can stop defensive play by running taunt, and can run practically any tera type it wants to give coverage. I love it and think it's arguably as good or better than Yanmega as late game cleaners.

What are your thoughts on Lycanroc-Dusk in the current metagame? 1/5
Meh, not too strong of a mon and doesn't see much use in high ladder from what I can tell.

What are your thoughts on Magnezone in the current metagame? 3/5
Specs Magnezone hits like a train, but it has too many weaknesses and relies on Tera to get itself out of the insta-death from all the ground moves in the tier. Still a huge threat and can trap Tinkaton or Forretress, but not too dominating.

What are your thoughts on Maushold in the current metagame? 2/5
Rocky Helmet and Mimikyu make Maushold almost irrelevant at times. Sure, it can absolutely sweep teams at just +1, but more often than not it fails to make much progress if you have even just one dedicated counter.

Outside of the Pokemons suggested above, is there anything else you feel strongly is suspect or ban worthy in the tier? Yanmega
This thing wins games by itself, need I say more?

Should we actually unban Zarude? Meh
Zarude would likely be a top-5 mon, but the 4x weakness to Bug in a tier with multiple U-Turns and bug types isn't too threatening. I think it'd be really good as a scarfer and likely a little too strong for some teams, but still manageable.

Did you either play a game in SCL for RU or won at least four rounds in RU Cup / latest RU Seasonals (combined?) No
I just started playing Smogon competitively recently and am doing okay so far in the RU Trios (1-0 with a game tonight). I would like to be more involved in the RU competitive scene but still too new to have the credentials, so please take my opinions with a grain of salt :D

Thoughts on more ADV RU integration? For example, a place in the next Classic Tour or a slot in a team tour
As said above, I'd like to be more involved moving forward, so any chance to play in any Tour would be fine by me!

 

[Fabi_ODST]

Relatively small changes this month, so we basically have 15 more days with this metagame XD With that being said:


With it gone, Rain teams will fall back to other physical breakers like Floatzel, but I don't think its presence's gonna be missed tbh. We still have Kilowattrel and thundy as insane rain abusers, so the style's probably gonna be fine.


A more consistent sun setter, with some utility in Rapid Spin, rocks and Yawn over Ninetales's WoW and Encore. Again, I don't think the style's gonna change much, but it is gonna feel more potent.


I expected this fella last month XD we now have a fast, offensive poison type that can actually make progress thanks to Toxic Chain and a Toxic Spikes absorber for more offensive teams. It also checks most Scream Tail variants given that they don't usually run psychic STAB, so that's neat.

See you all when the DLC drops and we get some nonsense tutor moves XD